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No Pay To Win - Just one more marketing trap
jcrg99
Member UncommonPosts: 723
The funny thing about the discussion that If Star Citizen is or not pay2win (which is not the purpose of this thread to evaluate if it is or not) is what Chris Roberts said:
"I know that people have different understanding of what pay to win means, but in my understanding Pay2Win is..."
I mean... He put in his advertising a big "NO pay to win" to define his business model and his game, to call attention to people, but HE KNEW AND CONFIRMED THAT BY HIS OWN WORDS, that people could have a different understanding of that.
For those that do not understand the implications of that, they should take a look in some advertising laws, to understand that an advertising CANNOT have the objective to mislead people, which clearly was the objective of CR, since he knew in the first place, confirmed that, but still used that phrase in his advertising, WITHOUT ANY DISCLAIMER or ANY FURTHER EXPLANATION, to clarify for those people that HE KNEW that had a different thought learned what HE UNDERSTAND of that BEFORE to pay for the game.
Just one more tool that they constantly use to feed their Money Machine and to achieve profit using people that are so hungry to have any Space Sim launched, and do not stop to evaluate it better and to see the hidden things of their marketing.
Comments
All advertising contains subjective terms like great and best and presents them as if they are hard and firm facts. McDonalds can go around all day advertising that I will enjoy eating there and won't get heartburn but that doesn't make it fact. Some people might enjoy eating there but I'm not one of them.
Just like most other companies they picked a meaning for the term no pay to win that suited their needs and are using that definition to justify their claims. The term has so little real meaning since it's really just a matter of personal taste that arguing about it is like arguing who makes the best cup of coffee. Everyone is going to have a different opinion base on their own personal tastes and preferences.
The key issue with the term is that no one can agree on what it is to win in a MMO to begin with. If winning is getting to max level the fastest than all F2P and most Sub MMO's are pay to win because of XP boosts. If it's collecting the best gear in game than a lot fewer fall into that category and if it's competitive ranking than you have to look at how people develop their characters and skills to make it onto the competitive ranking and how those activities are benefited by the cash shop.
I agree. But when a company bash other companies or publishers, for example, mainly about their marketing approach, that "they are all worried about money, not us" they could at least to try to act in a different way. Either way, regardless what Mcdonalds do, at this case, it still is misleading people in advertising, which still is breaking the advertising law, regardless if you feel that is common or not. You know... lawsuits are not common things that you see in the television, but are things that happen.
So, this attitude from their marketing team, puts them at risk of suits and risking the money pledged to pay suits (and you can ignore that "because it is just a game" people could not do that, because it involves people really passionate and hungry to have a Space Sim back, spending a lot of money, and usually people that get emotional when they did not receive what they want).
Unfortunately, their community prefer to "hide their marketing mistakes" leading them to make more and more mistakes, instead asking them to be more responsible. Some mistakes, neither a PR trainee would make. Until a point that becomes difficult to believe that they are mistakes, but instead, just in purpose to mislead people and grab more money.
It's very easy to notice mistakes been repeated all the time in their communication and marketing, misleading people all the time. They seem really motivated to follow this approach, more than any other game company that I have been following.
If you believe their goal is to create a game that people want to play for years if not decades there is nothing to gain and everything to lose by misleading their community. If instead you believe their goal is to capture as much money as possible before or at launch and dump something on the market that is a hollow shell of what they promised than what you are arguing makes sense.
Personally I believe these guys want to make a game people will play for years but it obvious you don't. Either way I don't do preorders and buying early access anymore so I'm waiting for the game to launch before I consider spending any money on it.
Definitely. There are two options here.
One) Ben Lesnick, Sandi Gardiner (mainly these two) are new guys, does not know a lot about advertising laws and make many mistakes. Are not competent enough (like a PR trainee would be) to see impacts of their bad campaigns (just look to the idea of the Veteran's Day campaign as an example, or ideas like removing the 'exclusivity' that people had earlier to give benefits for laters', if they do not want to be exclusive they could just say that they were not exclusive)
Two) They are grabbing the money that they can (obvious profit reasons), launching anything (right now, starting to give many excuses to brainwash people that they can delay all that they can and nobody should bother), using PS as excuse and bye bye fans.
I do not believe in the number one, because some other guys there, different from Sandi and Ben, are experienced people and would have noticed that so many "mistakes" would impact negatively in the future. Personally, I made sure to try repeatedly to alert them since months ago, because first, I thought that were mistakes only, but then, their reactions against my feedback demonstrated me that it would be something different. And still, they continue to follow the same and same approach again, and right now, very worried in censure everyone who has open eyes and say anything about their marketing/communication/mislead marketing approach.
So, I have my certainty that their objective is just money, nothing else, and the remaining is just marketing and fairy tale speech. And for that, I just paid attention to the CR's quote (one that probably he said without thinking in the impact of that for those with open eyes):
"I think the console business will be healthy for quite a while, I think the PC business, the tablet business, the mobile business, they'll all be healthy," Roberts said. "I think there's money to be made in all of them. I just like the PC business because there aren't a lot of people competing there."
The game will be released, I suppose, with possibly a long delay, very incomplete and bugged versions (messages at this point of dev team are starting right now to give excuses, to brainwash their community so they "do not care" with that), but people like you definitely won't be so disappointed with what will happened sooner than later after release, because you set your expectations right and won't be so big deal that they leaved later, with some "dramatic letter of CR talking about evil publishers buying press to talk bad things about them and that was the reason that they were unable to 'sustain' their business".
They also seem ignore the fact, that such delays won't be bought by general public. They brainwash approach will work only for their current tiny group of fans, another reason to show that they do not care with the future and are grabbing all the money that they can from these fans, regardless negative impacts, again, because possibly they already noticed that there is no public enough to keep their business model in the long term as they announce (something that they could not change now, because it would even put their big fans trust in danger, losing all these chances that they have now until the release to feed the Money Machine).
The fact that he went out of his way to define what the ambiguous term he used means to him just shows that your entire post makes no sense at all. If he had come out and defended the finished game with this that would be one thing, defining it before ever releasing the game is nothing but a positive.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
Not really. He was trying to explain, because many people started to raise questions.
I actually gave a feedback that I am certain that was heard by them, very earlier of such thing happening, but they assumed that "I was just one" and they should not care with just one feedback and would be more profitable to continue, with such mislead ad approach.
Then, later, when more and more threads popping up in their forums, he gave a very unhappy interview, were he tried to explain, but when doing that, he simply assumed that used the mislead ad in purpose.
Well... The guy is a dev, not really a business men (as a business men he only made bad decisions in the past, and it is undeniable). So, when devs try to play the whole of BM, with all their arrogance that devs when become "celebrities" preserve, shit happens, I mean... leak happens
Well... At least they do not play the role of "we are the good guys which care with everything but money". In my opinion, what CIG does is worst. And of course, a mistake does not justify another.
CIG used this marketing approach of "everyone is evil" and "they are good". Well.. They did not think that using the same approach of the "evil ones", would give more trouble to them than to the "evil ones".
Sometimes, to you notice how they are exactly the same that the "evil", you just have to make the exercise of look to CIG and exchange that for EA, and then, you will see how many of their actions, marketing campaigns, money machine obsession are just... yes ... impressive... but worst than EA marketing actions.
Space Sim is a tiny group of fans around the world. Star Citizen is making sure to put together in their "society" only the worst people of the genre and driving away everyone else. Before I was sorry by the guys, spending all their moneys, but sometimes I think that they deserve what they will really got, sooner than later, after the first release (if you want to believe that it will come to the point where they will call it "release", which each day become more questionable).
You really have to explain certain terms as none of the terms we use are real in gaming, they are proclaimed to be true based on how the person states it. How many times have you heard, "dude, that is not what pvp means you are a care bear." etc.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
I'm glad you have such a firm understanding of the term that your opinion can resonate out and alter reality to match.
Pay 2 Win has different definitions because people define winning in a MMO differently. There is no high score list to enter your name on or end game credits to get to by beating the game on nightmare difficulty to judge our progress between. So lacking that how do you defining winning in a manner that is universal?
I know people who are highly competitive PVP players who would say that ranking is all that matters.
I know raiders who define it as having cleared all the raid content in the game and have the best gear in game.
I know crafters who define it as building a crafting empire and having the most money in game.
I know social payers who judge it by how big their friends list is and how many tells they get when they log in.
I am sure if I thought about it a bit more I could come up with more.
I think for most people winning in MMO's is some combination of the above plus other things that are personal to them. And because winning is such a personal thing in MMO's doesn't that make terms like pay 2 win also personal?
The funny thing is that people did not notice, but what CIG did is just to revert the order of the things to appear "less P2W".
To you understand that, lets make an exercise here:
Just imagine now that this game is already released and they are selling ships by real money. You can buy what they are selling today. Many and many additional ships.
Now... thinking under this perspective, try to deny to people that it is not Pay2Win.
Here's the trap. The game is full of "P2W" today, but supposedly, won't be so "p2w" as it is today after release, when crowd funding ends and it seems that it won't have end ever and will remain in the next 2 years. I am imagining here the profit that these guys will get. A lot!
But at the same time, every day less people from out of their cycle notice that and believe less on these "marketing empty speechs".
But who cares? Well.. CIG don't. Since their objective is just to release the game. And for their fans, they will have the excuses of "evil publishers buying press to write bad articles impacting in their image" or "we are shutting down, but you know, we have the good faith to give you private servers"... and dramatic letters like that, making their big fans still to keep the "hero image" about CR, even that they will just cry like babies anyway LoL
If they were worried they would consider the fact that it is important to have more people, and not creating tools to make people out there to be more skeptic to go to the cause and that has the obvious objective to grab more money of their tiny group of fans. With their constant mislead marketing, they definitely will lost even a good part of those that believes on them today. That has been happening actually. I see more people leaving and decreasing trust than coming to their cause or raising trust, in many circles of fans that I know.
Clearly you do not understand anything about adverstising and laws related, since they have nothing to do with the service that you are buying, if it is essencial or not, but they are valid for everything that is sold, service or product, tangible or not tangible. If they were not, imagine the possibilities. All companies deceiving everyone out there, and never paying for anything, just because "they products/services are not essencial". No sir. Suits were made to companies with no essential business and their are more common that you see or watch in your television news.
Go learn and back here, instead coming with the crap that you came. You should be ashamed to say these non-senses and showing clearly that you do not understand anything about the matter.
So, the question that you asked is for you. What kind of fantasy world you live to believe that companies can break the law without nobody notice?
About your "Bleh". You should stop with that, writing just that, since all the remaining of what you said already demonstrated that your only capacity to discuss here, is saying "Bleh".
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
See... Fans help to prove my point. That what's CR will tell at their end. "Evil publishers hired people to say bad things about us". And they will believe on that and will cry, maybe will consider him a martyr. LoL
CR is smart and if this "way to be smart" is something that our society gives value, he really deserves all the profit that he is grabbing from these guys.
You know... Just like he said:
"I think the console business will be healthy for quite a while, I think the PC business, the tablet business, the mobile business, they'll all be healthy," Roberts said. "I think there's money to be made in all of them. I just like the PC business because there aren't a lot of people competing there."
If you want to know "my agenda" I can tell you. First I was a backer. Thought that they were making mistakes. Later it became clear that the "mistakes" were in purpose.
And I really do not like companies deceiving customers. And would be happy to be proved wrong, but they are unable to do that. They would not dare to call some independent company to prove those numbers for example.
And I saw they doing that many times, misleading people, more than any other game company that I have been following.
I will alert all people that I can. Not worried by your fan comments, because I am not willing to convince people who take things under religious proportions as you guys like you usually take and have a excuse for everything, even that such excuse is something like "the evil publishers" or some other fairy tales like that. You talk about success. A 'success' that you can't prove as true. It is just your overhyped mind that believes on that.
I guess I am not understanding why you are putting this much time and energy into this. Even if everything you say is true who the fuck cares!?
Just dont buy the game, warn your friends / family. Let the rest of the free people of the world make up their own mind. Myself and most others do not need you crusading on our behalf to save me from spending $50 bucks on a game.
This particular game is one I am looking forward to. If it turn out to be a P2W game then I will pass. Thanks for your holy crusade to save me tho.
Edit: I know this may come as a shocker but he IS in it to make money, the more the better. I dont see this as some charity work to save gaming as we know it. If they can make more money off a p2w cash shop game then it is smart business to do it. Not that I will play, but many others might and enjoy it.
Ultimately your last sentence, by definition is what it narrows down to. Trust. Individually, do I trust CR to deliver all the things that have been promised? I do. I don't go into semantics, dissecting every sentence trying to potentially find ulterior meanings. I have little to no interest in spending my time doing that. It comes down to a gut feeling for me. Whether I'm right or wrong is to be determined.
You on the other hand, very much have an agenda to maintain. You put me in mind of either a disgruntled employee or someone hired by the competition to slow the success of SC.
You reek it as a matter of fact ..... how curious.
~Hairysun
http://www.straightdope.com/
___________________________
Have flask; will travel.
There pretty much is some sort of agenda to this post, you don't drip this much vitriol without one.
You are 100% correct sir but it doesn't change the facts,it is still misleading if someone or group of people present misleading information.
To say that no one could agree on a no win scenario i would say is false.If there is absolutely no way to get an upper hand or get something nobody else has through additional monetary gains,then it is absolutely not a pay to win.What Mr.Roberts is doing is trying to mislead people because he knows all too well how touchy the subject is and purposely avoids the truth which is that "it COULD be considered a p2 win".
It goes even further,imagine all those people who already invested money all of a sudden see Roberts offer something even better for less down the road.Yes i know we can all sit back and say "well those people should not expect anything,they should realize they are handing money over for free".However truth is MANY of those people most likely do expect something for the money they hand over.
Fact is that Mr.Roberts is offering items for investing,so it is not a simple donation but more like a purchase because i doubt woudl get nearly the same response if nothing was given errr sold.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
Success of SC? Such success simply does not exist. No. It does not exist. What exists is a "better start the they imagine", according with the own devs. The remaining is just overhyped fans that they embraced and are each time feeding their hype to acquire more money from them.
So, you talk about having trust and that you could be wrong, but still assume that such "success" as a fact, when it is far to be a fact.
No...
It's not me with an agenda. It is you. And I just prove that.
You, with the marketing agenda to hype the game that you believe.
I am just telling facts about them and their marketing campaign. If that will lead to success or not, I suppose that won't. It would be the first time in the history that a starting company uses of dozen of mislead marketing and survives in the long term. Mislead marketing is not just not ethic, it creates side effects that you are unable to deal later. Your trust is destroyed for good. And CIG is using that, not worried about that, and the reasons is obvious. Because they are just willing to get money and release the game. The future, sooner that you imagine, is just private servers. All those other stories of new campaigns, universe evolving, bi-weekly updates etc etc, won't happen. Just for a few time after release. Your whole experience will be based playing milestones, parts of the game full of bugs and as soon as the "whole vision" be released (if they really achieve that), it won't last.
Or... maybe you fans can start to require from them a better marketing, communication and things like that. But I already watched all their arrogance to learn that they have a different agenda that you fans imagine, so they won't sacrifice their profit, only to give to you fans, a long term game.