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why older games seem better...

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  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by Dalanon
    There is nothing wrong with playing a game just because it's fun.  Candyland is a fun game, sincerely, but sometimes it's more fun to play chess.  A lot of mmo's are now candyland because anyone can play, so they make what they know more people will buy.  But this makes no sense because mmo's are modeled to be a big investment in a game that should last years, and when people get bored because the game is so easy, even if it is fun, it's just mmo companies shooting themselves in the foot.

    Well this would definitely ring true with the tendency for people to go through MMOs like underwear.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    I think that one of the most important reasons for older games seeming better is that they usually were more focused on a specific player group while modern MMOs usually try to make everyone happy. When you taget a smaller group i is easier to make content that your players like.

    Another reason might be nostalgia and the fact that we older players aren't the people we were back when M59, UO, AC and EQ released. Back then we never seen games like that before.

    And of course, since the budget were smaller back then people who had good ideas had way easier to get funding, but that will hopefully change with the kickstarter projects.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by immodium

    I'm guessing the topic has gone on to content being "dumbed" down.

    Games seemed harder back in the day because I couldn't save. I had lives. If I lost them I had to start at the beginning time after time. :)

    Yeah .. more tedium, and more chores to do in a game does not equate "harder".

    I remember using graph paper to draw maps for Might and Magic. It is not hard. It is easy but tedious. I am glad i am not forced to do that anymore.

    Forcing you to go back to the beginning of a level in oldschool games made you a more precise and accurate gamer. I see kids playing games nowadays going out into the middle of a firefight guns blazing because... why not? If you die you'll just respawn 10 seconds earlier. It cheapens the experience.

    First, you're painting a false dichotomy. There aren't only two extremes as the only options. Second, I don't think those games did make us that much better. It made us practice the timing over and over and over again, but every new level and every new game required us to jump through the same hoops and relearn the patterns. If it had a significant influence on our gaming abilities we would have wizzed through new levels or games much faster. That isn't the case. I do think it improved our overall dexterity a measure, but no more so than current platformers or action games do.

    You say it didn't make us better and then at the end you say it did. Which is it?

     

    You seem to be taking an indefensible position here. If you have a game that only lets you advance when you've learned to play the level consistently, that is better practice than a similar game that lets you instantly retry a specific obstacle over and over until you get it right. By letting you retry something over and over and over (think COD respawning you 10 seconds before you die), you're more likely to be able to get through the level NOT on your own personal abilities, but on pure luck of just running through the obstacle or that part of the level.

    You seem to be thinking only in extremes. I said games then did improve our dexterity a measure, but also no more than games do today.

    I also said they didn't dramatically improve our gaming, which is different, because if they did then we would have seen decreased challenge over time which we have not.

    Why are you making me repeat myself and ignoring the points I just made?

    I don't really see your last point. The old games did let us retry the level over and over again until we ran out of lives. That's why my friends and I would farm lives in Mario and leave the SNES running over the weekend when we partied. I don't see a difference between repeating the same level over and over until you get it right or having to start the entire game over, doing warmup levels, and then repeating that level over. The only difference to me is the time sink involved. I've never played CoD so I don't have a good reference there. Before MMOs I only played single player rpgs and console games (platformers, fighting, and rpgs).

    I'm not thinking in any extremes. Again, somebody said that forcing you go to the beginning of a level is tedious and doesn't make the game harder. I'm saying it does. It forces you to play consistently, which is difficult. There are no extremes in this position.

     

    And who's talking about dramatically? I never claimed that any game dramatically improves anything. But what do you mean "decreased challenge over time"? Games have absolutely become less challenging over time.

     

    Retrying a level is different from retrying an obstacle. I just explained all of this. Think of megaman compared to a newer game like COD. In megaman there were limited checkpoints in a level. If you died, you went back to the beginning of the level (or checkpoint) and had to repeat a lot of the obstacles that you had already completed. That forces you to play the level consistently. You have to best a number of obstacles in a row in order to advance. This isn't tedium, it's practice. It teaches you to be more precise and more patient.

     

    In newer games not only are the games more forgiving in terms of how easy it is to die, but it's also more forgiving in that when you die, you often don't have to repeat much, if anything. That's making the game easier. An easier game is worse practice. You can just arbitrarily claim that new games aren't any worse at increasing these personal faculties of ours that make us good at games, but I'm not buying it. There's no logical reason that they would be and it doesn't seem to be the case when observing the results. Any of my friends who are fans of oldschool games (particularly platformers) are still the best gamers I know. If I find out somebody grew up on Castlevania and Megaman, I can be pretty sure that he's going to be a better gamer now than people who didn't grow up on those games.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by Loke666

    I think that one of the most important reasons for older games seeming better is that they usually were more focused on a specific player group while modern MMOs usually try to make everyone happy. When you taget a smaller group i is easier to make content that your players like.

    Another reason might be nostalgia and the fact that we older players aren't the people we were back when M59, UO, AC and EQ released. Back then we never seen games like that before.

    And of course, since the budget were smaller back then people who had good ideas had way easier to get funding, but that will hopefully change with the kickstarter projects.

    Your first point there is one that I've tried to make a number of times but nobody seems to want to admit it. I'm not putting words in your mouth but it's the main argument I make when talking about why being a niche genre is better than being a mainstream one. If you have less people to serve, you can serve those people more deeply.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by Dalanon
    There is nothing wrong with playing a game just because it's fun.  Candyland is a fun game, sincerely, but sometimes it's more fun to play chess.  A lot of mmo's are now candyland because anyone can play, so they make what they know more people will buy.  But this makes no sense because mmo's are modeled to be a big investment in a game that should last years, and when people get bored because the game is so easy, even if it is fun, it's just mmo companies shooting themselves in the foot.

    Well this would definitely ring true with the tendency for people to go through MMOs like underwear.

    MMOs weren't ever really hard or deep compared to almost any other type. They just required a longer time commitment. Anyone could always play an mmo.

    It's not that a game like FFXIV is much easier. It's that it rockets you to the top in such a short period of time you don't get to stop and smell the roses or enjoy any of that progression unless you consciously try and go slow or just not play much. That is a reflection of the xp curve not really of the difficulty of the game.

    I don't like that either, but it seems to be how raid-centric games are evolving. I noticed on the EQ2 forums raiders whining that they had to spend time in non-raid content progressing and that it took too long. They didn't have the time to do that and didn't want to fall behind. They felt their previous tier raid gear should be better than any current content dungeon gear so they could just jump to the current raid moba style.

    Difficulty and time sink are more interchangeable than you guys seem to want to admit. There is mechanically difficult and then there are aspects of games that tax your attention span, dedication, etc. MMOs have never been mechanically difficult.

     

    I have a number of friends who think they're just naturally better at games than I am but they just don't try as hard as I do. And yet the end result is that I'm often the better player. There may be truth to the idea that if they put in as many hours as I do into a game like sc2 that they would be better... but they don't put in those hours. And that isn't to say that they're not putting in the hours because they're at the gym or at work, they just don't want to put in the effort of practicing something that's difficult.

  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I don't really see your last point. The old games did let us retry the level over and over again until we ran out of lives. That's why my friends and I would farm lives in Mario and leave the SNES running over the weekend when we partied. I don't see a difference between repeating the same level over and over until you get it right or having to start the entire game over, doing warmup levels, and then repeating that level over. The only difference to me is the time sink involved. I've never played CoD so I don't have a good reference there. Before MMOs I only played single player rpgs and console games (platformers, fighting, and rpgs).

    I spent most of my gaming doing FPS PvP. We had twice weekly practice sessions on certain maps to learn map layouts, where the best gear was, when it re-spawned. All on top of actually gaining skill with combat mechanics.

    PvP is so dynamic compared to PvE you had to think constatntly about your enemy trying different tactics.

    You don't get that with PvE (yet). Its maybe fun the first time. After that yeah it gets repetitive.

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Holophonist
     

    Difficulty and time sink are more interchangeable than you guys seem to want to admit. There is mechanically difficult and then there are aspects of games that tax your attention span, dedication, etc. MMOs have never been mechanically difficult.

     

    I have a number of friends who think they're just naturally better at games than I am but they just don't try as hard as I do. And yet the end result is that I'm often the better player. There may be truth to the idea that if they put in as many hours as I do into a game like sc2 that they would be better... but they don't put in those hours. And that isn't to say that they're not putting in the hours because they're at the gym or at work, they just don't want to put in the effort of practicing something that's difficult.

    Dedication for an entertainment product?

    Sure i will play a hard puzzle game that requires me to spend an hour to solve, but i am not devoting months or years and train for just a game. I have better things to do.

     

  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Holophonist
     

    Difficulty and time sink are more interchangeable than you guys seem to want to admit. There is mechanically difficult and then there are aspects of games that tax your attention span, dedication, etc. MMOs have never been mechanically difficult.

     

    I have a number of friends who think they're just naturally better at games than I am but they just don't try as hard as I do. And yet the end result is that I'm often the better player. There may be truth to the idea that if they put in as many hours as I do into a game like sc2 that they would be better... but they don't put in those hours. And that isn't to say that they're not putting in the hours because they're at the gym or at work, they just don't want to put in the effort of practicing something that's difficult.

    Dedication for an entertainment product?

    Sure i will play a hard puzzle game that requires me to spend an hour to solve, but i am not devoting months or years and train for just a game. I have better things to do.

     

    I just wish gamers got paid what sports men do when I was younger,....... or lived in Korea. :)

    image
  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Holophonist
     

    Difficulty and time sink are more interchangeable than you guys seem to want to admit. There is mechanically difficult and then there are aspects of games that tax your attention span, dedication, etc. MMOs have never been mechanically difficult.

     

    I have a number of friends who think they're just naturally better at games than I am but they just don't try as hard as I do. And yet the end result is that I'm often the better player. There may be truth to the idea that if they put in as many hours as I do into a game like sc2 that they would be better... but they don't put in those hours. And that isn't to say that they're not putting in the hours because they're at the gym or at work, they just don't want to put in the effort of practicing something that's difficult.

    Dedication for an entertainment product?

    Sure i will play a hard puzzle game that requires me to spend an hour to solve, but i am not devoting months or years and train for just a game. I have better things to do.

    What do you think this post even means? Dedication is a virtue. If you want something, but don't want to work to get it, that's a lack of motivation and dedication. That's bad... IF you want it.

     

    When I talk about dedication in gaming, that's working from the assumption that you want to do this thing. You want to reach max level, you want to become better at sc2, etc. You want it, but don't have the dedication to work for it. What's the problem here?

     

    And who said anything about months or years? Nobody. I'm saying difficult doesn't just mean mechanically difficult. It's not all dexterity. It can be difficult to motivate yourself to do something. Can it not?

     

    And what are your "better things"? You have 15k posts on a FORUM devoted to videogames which you claim to not have time for. LOL.

  • TorikTorik Member UncommonPosts: 2,342
    Originally posted by Holophonist

    Difficulty and time sink are more interchangeable than you guys seem to want to admit. There is mechanically difficult and then there are aspects of games that tax your attention span, dedication, etc. MMOs have never been mechanically difficult.

     

    I have a number of friends who think they're just naturally better at games than I am but they just don't try as hard as I do. And yet the end result is that I'm often the better player. There may be truth to the idea that if they put in as many hours as I do into a game like sc2 that they would be better... but they don't put in those hours. And that isn't to say that they're not putting in the hours because they're at the gym or at work, they just don't want to put in the effort of practicing something that's difficult.

    All activities have a point of diminishing returns where extra dedication and repetition is no longer helping you improve.  In fact for some tasks too much repetition causes yours skills to decrease because your mind starts rebelling against the drudgery and let's muscle memory do all the work.

    Many MMORPG tasks have a fairly low treshold for when repeatability stops improving your skill.  The skill threshold for a standard "kill 10 rats" task is very low and doing it for the 1000th time will not have a marked difference on your skill level.  Camp grinding for XP has a similar threshold once you memorize the mob's behaviour. 

    Then there is the subjective value a person puts on 'tasks of endurance' ie tasks that are only difficult because they require lots of repeatability, long attention spans and single-minded dedication to the task.  Personally I do not put much value into these tasks since for me they are the equivalent of watching paint dry and cause my mind to go lethargic.  

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by Holophonist

    Difficulty and time sink are more interchangeable than you guys seem to want to admit. There is mechanically difficult and then there are aspects of games that tax your attention span, dedication, etc. MMOs have never been mechanically difficult.

     

    I have a number of friends who think they're just naturally better at games than I am but they just don't try as hard as I do. And yet the end result is that I'm often the better player. There may be truth to the idea that if they put in as many hours as I do into a game like sc2 that they would be better... but they don't put in those hours. And that isn't to say that they're not putting in the hours because they're at the gym or at work, they just don't want to put in the effort of practicing something that's difficult.

    All activities have a point of diminishing returns where extra dedication and repetition is no longer helping you improve.  In fact for some tasks too much repetition causes yours skills to decrease because your mind starts rebelling against the drudgery and let's muscle memory do all the work.

    Many MMORPG tasks have a fairly low treshold for when repeatability stops improving your skill.  The skill threshold for a standard "kill 10 rats" task is very low and doing it for the 1000th time will not have a marked difference on your skill level.  Camp grinding for XP has a similar threshold once you memorize the mob's behaviour. 

    Then there is the subjective value a person puts on 'tasks of endurance' ie tasks that are only difficult because they require lots of repeatability, long attention spans and single-minded dedication to the task.  Personally I do not put much value into these tasks since for me they are the equivalent of watching paint dry and cause my mind to go lethargic.  

    Here's your misconception: we're not talking about modern "kill 10 rats" mmos. Somebody said new mmos are too easy and so people will get bored of them somewhat quickly. I said hey yeah and people do seem to get bored with mmos pretty quickly nowadays. Then somebody else said mmos have never been hard. Then I said that there are different kinds of hard: mechanical difficulty, and then things like motivation, dedication, focus, attention span, etc. MMOs have never been MECHANICALLY difficult.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    I would say EQ and UO were hard games not counting the tedium of leveling in EQ. The world and creatures in EQ were harsh. The PvP in UO made for a hard life.
  • ClassicstarClassicstar Member UncommonPosts: 2,697


    Originally posted by aspekx
    first to be clear, there are significant differences in the mmorpg's from 10-15 years back (or more). so i am not belittling those changes. however, its interesting to note that a number of us older gamers can look back and think: my gahd, what was i thinking camping that spawn all day.

     

    the sad truth, that i am coming to accept, is that neurologically speaking its becoming more and more evident that the brain's ability to adapt to change as we age does diminish and it does diminish noticeably.

     

    im afraid that neurologically speaking some of us are simply getting older. and i mean that sincerely, not casting any aspersions. but the facts are that as you age your neuronal pathways become less and less "flexible" in forming new connections or altering paths.

     

    note, this is not about intelligence or the ability to process information. it seems that in some ways its easier when you are older. but the ability to form new paths or adapt older ones in new ways is affected (even if you are doing Sudoku every morning).

     

    this is often why older folks are stereotypically seen as not embracing change. neurologically, its just harder. so those things we've enjoyed in the past seem more pleasurable because in a sense they really are more pleasurable. and the reason is that the brain is not having to overcome an increasingly difficult hurdle towards change.

     

    this doesn't mean that everyone over 40 can't change or adapt. but it does mean that it is decreasing over time.


    More yhen 10years ago i played in mmo's and had the feeling i realy need to work for everything to accomplish something. Also community back in those days dont whine constantly about timesink or want it fast. Also most dont mind work for it to get it if it takes time so be it and helpfull community.

    Im older gamer yes why should i ADEPT to todays games and gamers WHY?

    There is NO reason for me to adept to 2013 mmo's and gamers they all want it fast these days, spoonfed generation(many older gamers btw do adept and behave the same these days as younger ones, expierence this in AC2 its sad but true(also my opinion dont take it personal hehe)) and they dont communicate only through teamspeak and there own guilds.

    MMO'S in my view and gamers of today also many older gamers have adept to this sad behavior and simplistic gameplay are not WORTH playing anymore for em, i just can't.

    Last games ive realy try was GW2 and AC2(old mmo) but gamers only whine about make game more easy and solo dont interact anymore if they pass you in game world, big dissapointment those games.

    No thx no fun or entertainment.

    I have more contact with players on skyrim mods forums then i had ingame in GW2 or AC2.

    So all who claim older gamers can't adept is maybe for some but for me is games getting worse and to easy and community is not for me anymore to anti social then nomore i adept but not for this.

    But its not so importend i got my solo games you guys have your mmo's.

    I wish you all good luck and alot fun dont worry about me im not importend and my words meaningless:) it won't change anything and past won't comeback.

    Oh and other reason is these days so many cheat and first look up everything on net before they start playing so its even more easy. Its just no fun anymore well at least for me.


    Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!

    MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
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    GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
    MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
    PSU:Corsair AX1200i
    OS:Windows 10 64bit

  • sacredfoolsacredfool Member UncommonPosts: 849

    Older games were not as compulsive. 

     

    Yes, compulsive is a good word. New games make you click, click, click the whole time, they are basically like slot machines - addictive.

     

    Older games of course had similar aims but because of technological and scientific deficiencies they were not as good at it. They were probably also less fun, which meant people could spend much more time on the metagame. Metagame in itself is incredibly fun if the community is decent. 

     

    I remember I once spent about 2 hours with some new player on anarchy online trying to get him enough buffs to allow him to transform into a parrot. We finally achieved it and were flying around, making out way to the Temple of Three Winds. It was fun even if we actually spent more time getting the buffs from people then it'd take us to run to ToTW on foot.


    Originally posted by nethaniah

    Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.


  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550


    Originally posted by Classicstar
    More yhen 10years ago i played in mmo's and had the feeling i realy need to work for everything to accomplish something. Also community back in those days dont whine constantly about timesink or want it fast. Also most dont mind work for it to get it if it takes time so be it and helpfull community.Im older gamer yes why should i ADEPT to todays games and gamers WHY?There is NO reason for me to adept to 2013 mmo's and gamers they all want it fast these days, spoonfed generation(many older gamers btw do adept and behave the same these days as younger ones, expierence this in AC2 its sad but true(also my opinion dont take it personal hehe)) and they dont communicate only through teamspeak and there own guilds....


    Great post, and I agree with everything you said.



    Originally posted by sacredfool
    ...I remember I once spent about 2 hours with some new player on anarchy online trying to get him enough buffs to allow him to transform into a parrot. We finally achieved it and were flying around, making out way to the Temple of Three Winds. It was fun even if we actually spent more time getting the buffs from people then it'd take us to run to ToTW on foot.


    Bravo. My character was lost in EQ and I met a friendly druid who not only helped me out of my predicament; but also spent a couple hours showing me how to fish, swim, and complete a valuable quest. What is his reward? That even now, 14 years later, I never forgot him or his name (Whyye).

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • pkpkpkpkpkpk Member UncommonPosts: 265
    You are just misguided, man. Things have gotten worse on many different fronts (political, entertainment, commercial) at different periods in history. Do you honestly not believe in objectivity? If children are enjoying it then it must 'cause you're old that you can't? Children can enjoy hammering a set of pegs into a wooden board if that is all they are brought up on. One day the world is going to be a really unpleasant place. Very little that has gotten worse in the past has gotten better in the 21st century. But much of it got bad well before the 21st century. If we take an old person to be somebody who knows nothing outside of his time and cannot correlate or analyze history, then I can see your point. But if someone is this simple-minded he can probably enjoy modern games if he really wants to. Certainly, it seems to me, a more intelligent person would not lack the confidence in his own judgment to sell himself short before an audience of children and simpletons. This is a result of a common life and a weak mind.
  • GrumpumGrumpum Member Posts: 8

    To the OP... wow. Just wow. Im 50 and have no problems playing more and more complex games. I started out with Wizardy and currently play DDO. The puzzles and player controlled  character development are one of(if not the most) complex there is. While you may be experiencing diminished capacity, the rest of us are not. Please dont speak for anyone but yourself.

     

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