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SotA magic system?
Aragon100
Member RarePosts: 2,686
SotA magic system seem to be a card game where each card is a certain spell. The game choose randomly from the spells i know which ones i can actually use at a certain time. Those available cards is the only ones i can use. It is not up to me to decide what spell to cast.
This will as i see it remove just about all combat flow from the game and alot of the player skills needed. It will most likely be very slow and getting the right spell from the game will also matter alot.
Seem like SotA developers listened to much to the less skilled PvE players when they decided this was the system of their choice.
Edit: Here it is on video and it seem just as bad as i thought it would -
http://www.ign.com/videos/2013/10/31/shroud-of-the-avatar-developer-commentary
PvP demonstration starts at 16:30 and it looks like the game is playing you not the other way arround. I would look more at the cards then the actual combat situation, what a fiasco of a combat system. Richard Garriott was a part of making the best PvP system ever with UO and now he makes card games, what have come of the world?
Comments
Do you have a source for this? I thought the were going for a reagent based system like the old Ultima games used.
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/does-anyone-else-hate-the-proposed-card-system.3128/page-4
They have not released enough details yet about the "Card System" to make any solid assumptions. That post was just for a forum user.
I honestly don't know how combat or magic will work but when they start releasing official update, we can debate the topic better.
OK thanks. Blech, seems like a lame system. I never played UO but I backed this wanted a sequel to the old SP Ultimas I used to play which had an awesome magic system. But this card BS seems to have no connection to anything he's made before and seems very dumbed down and random. Starting to get a bit worried about this game. Probably shouldn't have bought all 5 of the games...
Maybe they'll change their mind and go with a more sensible combat system?
Yes they have released enough details to make assumptions based on that information. And waiting? Then it might be to late for creating a totally different system. I believe they are going for the cardsystem one way or another.
I sure hope so.
Right, but exactly how will it work? Do you pick 10 spells to have ready / learned? There was also talk of a weapon or staff being enchanted with magic to give you another spell to use. There are quite a few things we don't fully understand.
Remember in the old D&D days and old RPGs, you had to learn a spell first before using it. Do some preparation first before casting it.
In casting spell books , most talk about preparing spells, enchanting a symbol etc. You don't just get a book of 64 spells and bam !! you spam cast whatever the hell you feel like.
To me, this card system of preparing spells etc, may not only be a different approach but may make for more strategy. Don't a lot of people enjoy that magic game ?
I need to know more or see it in action first before i make any true opinions. If you need your twitch combat, click , click , macro fast paced action, then yea, maybe this won't be at that speed. However, it could be more complex and require more strategy. Far from being dumbed down.
You had to learn the spell in UO also, you didnt get a spellbook with 64 spells, you found them on mobs and the best spells were found on the hard ones.
UO had loads of strategy and demanded a intelligent, chilly, quick thinking mind. It was not just pressing buttons faster then the other guy, and it wasnt as twitch based as some players seems to think. It needed timing not speed. You had to cast your spell at the right time not the fastest.
This system with cards is as i see it only created to please the hardcore roleplayers and the less skilled ones. Preparing a spell just to please the roleplayers immersion seems to be the choice SotA choose. If you already know a spell then cast it, preparing is just making the game slower and less skillbased.
Thought it could be good to inform the ones that want a skillbased PvPgame that this might not be the game for them. Roleplayers yes but the ones that enjoy to play skillbased PvP? Doubt it.
Devs said if it isnt well received in alpha beta they already have a backup plan.
Try not to dump on it before you've even tried it.
http://insanemembrain.wordpress.com/
If it's like old D&D I'm fine with it. I pictured something luck based like Magic the Gathering where you can only cast your spell if it happens to come up in your "hand". That's what I don't want. If I know a spell, I should be able to just have it available without some stupid random system involved.
You will only be able to choose the card (spell) the game have choosen for you, not the spell that you actually wanted to cast.
It is a system created to please the players with little experience with PvP, see it as a way to dumb down PvP, make it less skill demanding.
Really? Can you please pass me a download link so I can test that out, because I have my doubts thats exactly how it works. Please give me a link for the Alpha client, I'd love to see.
http://insanemembrain.wordpress.com/
You dont need a alpha client to understand this, you can read it on the SotA forums. Read up on the developer information.
What is really funny is to see selfproclaimed hardcore PvP players accepting this abuse of PvP system. They are no real hardcore PvP players and the game will lack players like me when it goes live.
I dont play PvP games that is based on luck and without skills.
They should have gone for a system like old Ultima Online had - the so far more skillbased magic system seen in any MMO. Some without any knowledge of that system claim it was fast just fast button pressure but that is very far from the truth. You had to time every button pressure exactly to get the spell effect you wanted and you had to outsmart your opponent.
SotA magic system seems to be one of the worst ever created.
Oh ok, I thought you were actually on to something there for a moment, but without being able to see how it plays it is useless for me to judge. I'd need to play it.
I'm sure after we test it, if we don't like it, they will have a backup plan. I remember that being said somewhere.
http://insanemembrain.wordpress.com/
Not being able to choose which spell to cast but instead have to choose the ones the game choose for you remove much of the skills you as a player can develop ingame. Your hands will be tied behind your back.
If you want to heal your friend in a teamfight and the heal spell isnt available then i think that speak for itself. Such a magic system i dont have to try to be able to understand it.
It will be a game of luck and little playerskills. A dumbed down system to please players with little PvP experience.
You are not representing the system from a neutral point of view, the game does not choose cards for you. There isn't anything I can say to a bias person who wishes to poison this forum with their unfounded views however, so good luck to you.
http://insanemembrain.wordpress.com/
I am describing the magic system as far as we know.
The game choose the spell not the player. Spells are randomly picked by the game. A heal that is needed to heal my friend in a teamfight might not be available when i need to cast it on him.
This is what the developers told us so it is actually very accurate.
Here it is on video and it seem just as bad as i thought it would -
http://www.ign.com/videos/2013/10/31/shroud-of-the-avatar-developer-commentary
PvP demonstration starts at 16:30 and it looks like the game is playing you not the other way arround. I would look more at the cards then the actual combat situation, what a fiasco of a combat system. Richard Garriott was part of making the best PvP system ever with UO and now he makes card games, what have come of the world?
A quote from the Devs:
"The combat UI is VERY VERY VERY much a work in progress/prototype and what you saw in the video (especially the icon shuffling) is nowhere close to what we want to ship. Please withhold panic until we show something ready for prime time (or at least 9AM as opposed to the 2:35AM version you saw)."
http://insanemembrain.wordpress.com/
Here is some wise words from magixredux over at SotA forums that understand what this kind of weak combat system will deliver -
https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-way-the-deck-system-should-work.5941/page-10#post-159998
This sums up pretty good the SotA magic and combat system -
[quote] Nice try, ignore all of my perfectly constructed and well explained arguments and brush it off as "baseless insults". You remind me of people who go around labeling anyone who disagrees with them as a troll. Sorry, but you are just flat out wrong and just because some one disagrees with you that doesn't mean you can cry fowl and label them a troll.
My points still stand which i will repeat in point form:
Cards are dealt out at random, no player can choose to select which card they desire.
Some cards are more desirable in some scenarios.
Others are much weaker and less useful.
Scenario A:
Two players with the exact same gear, skill level, and time spent playing run in to one another.
Player 1 draws the best possible deck, containing very powerful stuns, nukes, great cc spells ect.
Player 2 draws weaker less ideal spells, something like a slow, poison DoT, ect.
As they proceed to fight, player one stuns, nukes and destroys player 2 before he can really do anything.
He owes his flawless victory not to skill, but to random chance, it was all left up to the roll of a dice.
You pointed out over time everyone has the same odds, but that's really not the issue. We are talking about case by case examples of how a fight would play out. Also there are people who get really unlucky and lose 5 or so games in a row, and vice versa. Learn to address peoples arguments. [/quote]
A random luckbased combat system will never be fun and challenging. Why even try to progress your PvP skills if the combat is decided by luck? Random cards (skills) decided by the game and not by me is what fundamentally will make this a unskilled game, a game based on randomness and luck out of my control.
Alot of PvE players over at SotA forums defend this combat system and my qualified guess is that a system with little skills and alot of luck and randomness will give them a fair chance, a chance they never would have had against a seasoned, skilled PvP player in a game that actually demanded playerskills. UO took alot of playerskills and it is just amazing that Richard Garriott abandoned the just about best combat system ever created for this horrible crap.
I'm new to this forum, but I'm one who has pledged for this game. If you have pledged, for whatever reason, then you might want to wait and try the proposed system first and then if it truly is something you don't like, then give some meaningful feedback about it on the official forums for the devs to compile info. That way you are basing an opinion on actual facts and first-hand knowledge, rather than spamming an outside forum with bile.
I'm sorry, and I don't mean to be rude, but I've seen numerous threads here started by you,bashing the game. What exactly is your purpose? At any rate, I would hope that people considering the game will research things for themselves and not listen to a disgruntled person angry that it's not going to be an early UO clone with updated graphics.
I dont need to test the proposed system since it will have just about all the flaws i pointed out with quoting magicredux over at SotA forums. My criticism is based on early promises of a more hardcore PvP game and how developers claim they listen to their entire playerbase when they actually just listen to the carebears. Combat system, loot and anything else is just about exactly like what the carebears wanted.
The hardcore PvP players, me included, have talked to closed developers ears for over a year and it is a good thing this is described on a less bias forum. What i write here would have been removed over at SotA forums.
I dont want any hardcore PvP player get tricked to sponsor a game that is nowhere close to that old UO game when it comes to PvP and as Richard Garriott have claimed from the beginning, a spiritual successor to UO.
Information is always good even though if some of it might not be entire accurate with the released game. I and others have described the game we know so far. This information is here to describe what players can expect of SotA and who developers prioritated to listen to and that is definetly not the hardcore UO players that pledged for something else. They listen to some very vocal PvE players when they decided combat system and risk vs reward which is just amazing, players that is uninterested taking part in PvP got the developers ear !
PvP players that want to take part in a game that reflects their interest and gamestyle were abandoned by developers, all their suggestions and what was important to include to make PvP interesting was excluded by developers. It was some vocal PvE players that actually is very much uninterested taking part in PvP and the SotA developers that together managed to destroy the potentiallt fun PvP game fun for the hardcore PvP players.
Just read up on the SotA forums and you will soon figure out that loads of UO hardcore PvP players have left the game and they are very disapointed over the combat system and how risk vs reward have been handled.
If you as a developer claim you listen to your community and does not in practice then you will get well deserved criticism.
You said: "My criticism is based on early promises of a more hardcore PvP game and how developers claim they listen to their entire playerbase when they actually just listen to the carebears. Combat system, loot and anything else is just about exactly like what the carebears wanted."
I don't suppose the thought has occurred to you that any of the people who gave input on the system could possibly be anything but "carebears," unless they were agreeing with you? Are you saying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "carebear?" Or has it occurred to you that maybe the suggestions they went with represented a majority of players? Or maybe because what they've decided to go with represents a compromise? Or that, *gasp*, maybe your wants are so extreme they would effectively exclude the majority of the potential players they want in the game?
You said: "I dont want any hardcore PvP player get tricked to sponsor a game that is nowhere close to that old UO game when it comes to PvP and as Richard Garriott have claimed from the beginning, a spiritual successor to UO. "
Inaccurate. He said it was intended to be the spiritual successor to the Ultima franchise. UO was the spiritual successor to the Ultima franchise as well. Yes he mentions UO, but the only time he specifically refers to early pre-trammel UO is when he's talking about the unintended consequences of the rules they'd failed to put in place and how they had to rethink the whole thing. To assume that he meant a spiritual successor to a portion of UO that only truly existed for 2 out of the 17 years of the game's duration, sounds to me like nothing more than wishful thinking and hearing what you want to hear. But you can't blame Richard Garriot for your own failings.
The rest of your post is basically just saying you're upset that they're not changing the game's focus to accommodate a group of players who are unhappy that people who like to play any other play style are not going to be forced to play their way.
The current "proposed" system, while not set in stone, is NOT a betrayal of anything like you keep trying to tell people here. It was never promised to be a full blown pvp-centric game. RG has said right from day 1, that it is a role playing game. Spiritual successor to the Ultima franchise. Have you played any of those games? Or are you just fixated on the 2 out of 17 years of UO? And even if he had said it was a full on sequal to UO, which part? Why would that automatically mean those first two miserable years? Maybe he really meant after Trammel. lol. Yes I was there from day one.
They are giving pvpers as much freedom as possible without infringing on the freedoms of others. With the sorting system, you probably won't ever see unflagged players. You can frag fest to your heart's content. Just not with anyone who isn't interested. I don't understand why that's not enough for you. And whether you like it or not, an early UO clone would do nothing but turn SotA into a niche game with no more players than the current player run UO servers. That would be a terrible business decision.
Do you even know how the game will work?
Players that dont want to meet each other wont meet each other ingame. Thats how the game will work.
PvE players that want a peace and quit game doing their PvE stuff wont interact with the PvP players. They have a choice since PvP will be consensual and players with same interests will be matched together.
So there is actually no need whatsoever to make a compromise. And today of course there is a wast majority of carebears following this game since just about all hardcore PvP players left the game in disapointment when developers revealed the PvP system. But you know what, begore they left all votes on for example full loot or not have been in favor of full loot. So the PvP interested players wanted a way more hardcore PvP with risk vs reward and harsh consequences as full loot. This was denied us by the developers. They didnt listen for 5 cent on all suggestions the PvP oriented players had. Nothing they wanted to see in the game is in the PvP game, nothing.
Sp dont come here talking about compromises when everything went in favor for the carebears. And they wont even see the PvP players, that is the most amazing part of all this. Developers made a PvP game the PvP players didnt want.
You have to read up, he have said it was the spiritual successor of UO, i even have a quote of that in one of my replies on this forums, look it up if youre interested, That he never said those exact words is what the carebears dont want to come out. There have been many carebears over at SotA forums that try to claim that Richard Garriott never said those exact words.
It is of course the part of UO when he was in control of the game which means the old hardcore game. Why would he claim it was a spiritual successor of a UO game he had no part in?