Originally posted by Quirhid You forget novelty, Holophonist. TV shows and movies weren't "new" back in the day (unless you are really old).
I'm not sure how it fits in... at least I'm not sure how it fits in as opposition to what I'm saying. I think the MMO genre being new is supporting evidence for my separate claim that WoW's success caused the industry to make more themeparks than it should. The market hasn't figured out what it should be making yet because it's new. Therefore it's very possible that sandbox or "oldschool" advocates are currently being underserved because the market thought themeparks were going to be easier money than they turned out to be.... thanks to WoW's success.
Comparison to TV or music isn't valid here. Seinfeld or Led Zeppelin are perfectly enjoyable today if that's what you like. Games change a lot more than other media over the years and you can't just go back and get the same experience from an old game. Especially with an MMO where the game might be shut down or totally different than it was back in the day.
It's also painfully obvious that MMOs have changed their target market over the years after WoW which has drastically effected gameplay, and it's pretty reasonable for people who liked them the way they were before to feel pretty isolated now.
I don't know how much good it does to whine on forums though. The mainstream will always go where they see the most money. That's just the way business works. Far better to find niche MMOs you like and support the hell out of them than expect the "big boys" to change to suit your needs.
Comparison to TV or music isn't valid here. Seinfeld or Led Zeppelin are perfectly enjoyable today if that's what you like. Games change a lot more than other media over the years and you can't just go back and get the same experience from an old game. Especially with an MMO where the game might be shut down or totally different than it was back in the day.
It's also painfully obvious that MMOs have changed their target market over the years after WoW which has drastically effected gameplay, and it's pretty reasonable for people who liked them the way they were before to feel pretty isolated now.
I don't know how much good it does to whine on forums though. The mainstream will always go where they see the most money. That's just the way business works. Far better to find niche MMOs you like and support the hell out of them than expect the "big boys" to change to suit your needs.
Whining on forums lets people know that there is at least that much money to be made by making those types of games. It's one way of I'm sure many for developers to figure out which niches are over or under served.
Originally posted by Holophonist May I ask why we should take this "it's all nostalgia" argument seriously when in every other facet of my life my opinion has grown and changed? I don't miss power rangers. My favorite show of all time, Breaking Bad, just ended. I don't listen to alt rock anymore. My favorite band, Between the Buried and Me, is still around. Why is it only videogames, and in particular MMORPGs that make me miss the old times?
I don't think it's anyone's contention that a person thinks all things were better in the past, just that when they do make blanket statements of the sort, there's a good chance nostalgia is playing a hefty role. Consider what you've just said. You think Breaking Bad is the best show you've ever seen. Yet there are people who zealously believe that the best years of television occurred in the 90s or the aughts. How would you come to terms with that mindset? Are they right and your opinions wrong? Are you just too casual of a viewer or not discerning enough to understand the appeal of all those old shows? Or might there be something inherently jaundiced about making such all-encompassing statements as "X is simply better and everything after Y sucks"?
Yet MMO vets have been trying to make precisely this subjective argument again and again. You're right, though, to ask what is it in particular that makes MMORPGs fall into the category of having been better before than now. I'm inclined to think it's solely because of context. If we were on CNN.com people would be arguing old politics vs new, on a rock site we'd be arguing old bands vs new, on a yachting site we'd be arguing old boats vs new. And when the only evidence being presented is "I prefer this style of governance/Fender/propeller over the new ones" it's nigh impossible to do more than debate semantics and the persuasiveness of the argument being made.
Ok two problems.
1. If somebody says some show from the 90s is better than Breaking Bad then it's probably either because they truly believe that they prefer that show over Breaking Bad, or because they haven't given Breaking Bad a fair shot. I wouldn't say that they're just a victim to nostalgia because their favorite show happens to be from an earlier time. What even is the argument you guys are trying to make? That the main reason we prefer older games is due to rose colored classes or nostalgia? Then I'd ask the same thing that I already have: Why isn't this the case with TV, movies or music? I haven't heard an answer to this.
2. As people have already pointed out, we're not simply saying "I prefer this type of game over the new ones." People have given specific examples of how games have changed and why they don't like those changes. But for some reason you guys just set it all aside and make up unlikely alternatives to why we prefer something different.
I think it's far more likely that we just prefer those types of games. Take single player RPGs for example. For a long time I've thought that they too have been becoming more mediocre and less "hardcore." They seem to be easier and have more of a focus on cutscenes, scripted events, etc. You probably would've made the same argument about human nature regarding nostalgia and sentiment that you're making right now. However, the games Demon Souls and Dark Souls kind of hurt your argument because they both have precisely filled the role that I was longing for for years. Going back to the "good ol'" days isn't some unattainable mythological goal.
At this point we're going around in circles. In the first post I made that you responded to I explained why I thought the conditions present at the genesis of MMOs differed from how they are now and how they could lend a novelty to those early experiences that simply doesn't exist anymore. I also said that I have no problem with people simply preferring one thing to another. That's not at issue. I'm not one of "you guys" who says it's all rose-colored glasses. If someone wants to make the argument that a certain stye of gameplay was present before WoW and that type of gameplay has largely fallen out of favor I've got no beef.
The opinion you're espousing is far more nuanced than what's been brought up. Saying that you have a preference and it hasn't been served a la Dark Souls is one thing. Saying that RPGs in the past were simply better than they are now lacks nuance, lacks explanation, and cannot help but come off as tainted by nostalgia. I don't know how else to explain this other than to repeat what I've said earlier-- take a poll of any artform and witness how the exact same argument is made time after time after time. Then tell me that nostalgia or the human tendency to romanticize aspects of the past has no bearing.
My theory is the rapid development of technology. The more we learn to have, the more we want.
Old / older games were rudimentary at best, we grew into them with not really knowing what expect from the future of games and gaming. As we noticed the pace of new tech and ways of doing games quicken, we learnt to accept chance much faster, to the point where we are now. Now we are actually wanting more than can be delivered as opposed to what it used to be like.
We "olden gamers" grew with the industry and the evolution of games was rapid to the current point where it has pretty much seized.
Originally posted by Scot ... Blaming inability to change is just an excuse to dismiss the issues that are being raised. You will find this argument is used at work, in politics, in the entertainment industry, used everywhere in fact. If you have any objections to the current programme you are being old fashioned etc. ...
Yes, exactly!
Originally posted by PandaEQN It's called immersion. And it's all THIS guys fault.
Great article except for the last two paragraphs.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Holophonist May I ask why we should take this "it's all nostalgia" argument seriously when in every other facet of my life my opinion has grown and changed? I don't miss power rangers. My favorite show of all time, Breaking Bad, just ended. I don't listen to alt rock anymore. My favorite band, Between the Buried and Me, is still around. Why is it only videogames, and in particular MMORPGs that make me miss the old times?
I don't think it's anyone's contention that a person thinks all things were better in the past, just that when they do make blanket statements of the sort, there's a good chance nostalgia is playing a hefty role. Consider what you've just said. You think Breaking Bad is the best show you've ever seen. Yet there are people who zealously believe that the best years of television occurred in the 90s or the aughts. How would you come to terms with that mindset? Are they right and your opinions wrong? Are you just too casual of a viewer or not discerning enough to understand the appeal of all those old shows? Or might there be something inherently jaundiced about making such all-encompassing statements as "X is simply better and everything after Y sucks"?
Yet MMO vets have been trying to make precisely this subjective argument again and again. You're right, though, to ask what is it in particular that makes MMORPGs fall into the category of having been better before than now. I'm inclined to think it's solely because of context. If we were on CNN.com people would be arguing old politics vs new, on a rock site we'd be arguing old bands vs new, on a yachting site we'd be arguing old boats vs new. And when the only evidence being presented is "I prefer this style of governance/Fender/propeller over the new ones" it's nigh impossible to do more than debate semantics and the persuasiveness of the argument being made.
Ok two problems.
1. If somebody says some show from the 90s is better than Breaking Bad then it's probably either because they truly believe that they prefer that show over Breaking Bad, or because they haven't given Breaking Bad a fair shot. I wouldn't say that they're just a victim to nostalgia because their favorite show happens to be from an earlier time. What even is the argument you guys are trying to make? That the main reason we prefer older games is due to rose colored classes or nostalgia? Then I'd ask the same thing that I already have: Why isn't this the case with TV, movies or music? I haven't heard an answer to this.
2. As people have already pointed out, we're not simply saying "I prefer this type of game over the new ones." People have given specific examples of how games have changed and why they don't like those changes. But for some reason you guys just set it all aside and make up unlikely alternatives to why we prefer something different.
I think it's far more likely that we just prefer those types of games. Take single player RPGs for example. For a long time I've thought that they too have been becoming more mediocre and less "hardcore." They seem to be easier and have more of a focus on cutscenes, scripted events, etc. You probably would've made the same argument about human nature regarding nostalgia and sentiment that you're making right now. However, the games Demon Souls and Dark Souls kind of hurt your argument because they both have precisely filled the role that I was longing for for years. Going back to the "good ol'" days isn't some unattainable mythological goal.
At this point we're going around in circles. In the first post I made that you responded to I explained why I thought the conditions present at the genesis of MMOs differed from how they are now and how they could lend a novelty to those early experiences that simply doesn't exist anymore. I also said that I have no problem with people simply preferring one thing to another. That's not at issue. I'm not one of "you guys" who says it's all rose-colored glasses. If someone wants to make the argument that a certain stye of gameplay was present before WoW and that type of gameplay has largely fallen out of favor I've got no beef.
The opinion you're espousing is far more nuanced than what's been brought up. Saying that you have a preference and it hasn't been served a la Dark Souls is one thing. Saying that RPGs in the past were simply better than they are now lacks nuance, lacks explanation, and cannot help but come off as tainted by nostalgia. I don't know how else to explain this other than to repeat what I've said earlier-- take a poll of any artform and witness how the exact same argument is made time after time after time. Then tell me that nostalgia or the human tendency to romanticize aspects of the past has no bearing.
Fair enough, I probably shouldn't lump you in with a lot other people on this site. I'm just having a hard time understanding what exactly your argument is. At this point it seems like you don't have a problem with people preferring older games, and you don't take issue with the claim that games HAVE changed. What you're saying is that they're not necessarily worse now.
I think the main thing is the audience size. There was a large increase in players at the same time that there was a drastic shift away from certain gameplay elements and towards others. As I said before some of this I'm SURE can be attributed to unobjectionable aspects like graphics, polish, marketing, etc. But it seems very likely that this also included watering down the gameplay so as to appeal to more people. Typically when this happens, you're serving each individual person less.
Niche > mainstream is kind of what it comes down to.
Things were less convenient in the past. True or false.
Games were more art and less math in the past.
Most of the people I know in real life that have played the older games, say the older games were better as well. I don't really know anyone who is still playing mmorpgs.
"Things were less convenient in the past" True. That is one good reason why older games are worse for me.
"Games were more art and less math in teh past" ... well that is arguable. What is art? I would say WoW has better art design in the visual department than the "old" MMOs.
I say old games were worse. It is just subjective.
Whining on forums lets people know that there is at least that much money to be made by making those types of games. It's one way of I'm sure many for developers to figure out which niches are over or under served.
Is that really true though? Those old games were considered successes if they got up to 1 million subs, then WoW changed everything by getting 10 times that by being more streamlined and casual friendly. Probably the next step will be "MMOs" on consoles or even tablets which will cut out even more of the core gameplay in the name of "accessibility" I can already see them going that way with the reduction in number of skills and "action combat" which seems to fit better in console games.
It's a given that people like us will probably hate those games and also likely that they will attract a huge new audience of kids and more casual adults. I do think there is a hardcore/oldschool MMO market but I don't see it ever becomming the mainstream again. Your next dream MMO is far more likely to be crowdfunded than come out of a big studio.
Whining on forums lets people know that there is at least that much money to be made by making those types of games. It's one way of I'm sure many for developers to figure out which niches are over or under served.
Is that really true though? Those old games were considered successes if they got up to 1 million subs, then WoW changed everything by getting 10 times that by being more streamlined and casual friendly. Probably the next step will be "MMOs" on consoles or even tablets which will cut out even more of the core gameplay in the name of "accessibility" I can already see them going that way with the reduction in number of skills and "action combat" which seems to fit better in console games.
It's a given that people like us will probably hate those games and also likely that they will attract a huge new audience of kids and more casual adults. I do think there is a hardcore/oldschool MMO market but I don't see it ever becomming the mainstream again. Your next dream MMO is far more likely to be crowdfunded than come out of a big studio.
Oh no absolutely. I don't ever expect "hardcore" or "oldschool" games to be the mainstream or the majority. But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be more of them than there currently are.
1. If somebody says some show from the 90s is better than Breaking Bad then it's probably either because they truly believe that they prefer that show over Breaking Bad, or because they haven't given Breaking Bad a fair shot. I wouldn't say that they're just a victim to nostalgia because their favorite show happens to be from an earlier time. What even is the argument you guys are trying to make? That the main reason we prefer older games is due to rose colored classes or nostalgia? Then I'd ask the same thing that I already have: Why isn't this the case with TV, movies or music? I haven't heard an answer to this.
2. As people have already pointed out, we're not simply saying "I prefer this type of game over the new ones." People have given specific examples of how games have changed and why they don't like those changes. But for some reason you guys just set it all aside and make up unlikely alternatives to why we prefer something different.
I think it's far more likely that we just prefer those types of games. Take single player RPGs for example. For a long time I've thought that they too have been becoming more mediocre and less "hardcore." They seem to be easier and have more of a focus on cutscenes, scripted events, etc. You probably would've made the same argument about human nature regarding nostalgia and sentiment that you're making right now. However, the games Demon Souls and Dark Souls kind of hurt your argument because they both have precisely filled the role that I was longing for for years. Going back to the "good ol'" days isn't some unattainable mythological goal.
At this point we're going around in circles. In the first post I made that you responded to I explained why I thought the conditions present at the genesis of MMOs differed from how they are now and how they could lend a novelty to those early experiences that simply doesn't exist anymore. I also said that I have no problem with people simply preferring one thing to another. That's not at issue. I'm not one of "you guys" who says it's all rose-colored glasses. If someone wants to make the argument that a certain stye of gameplay was present before WoW and that type of gameplay has largely fallen out of favor I've got no beef.
The opinion you're espousing is far more nuanced than what's been brought up. Saying that you have a preference and it hasn't been served a la Dark Souls is one thing. Saying that RPGs in the past were simply better than they are now lacks nuance, lacks explanation, and cannot help but come off as tainted by nostalgia. I don't know how else to explain this other than to repeat what I've said earlier-- take a poll of any artform and witness how the exact same argument is made time after time after time. Then tell me that nostalgia or the human tendency to romanticize aspects of the past has no bearing.
Fair enough, I probably shouldn't lump you in with a lot other people on this site. I'm just having a hard time understanding what exactly your argument is. At this point it seems like you don't have a problem with people preferring older games, and you don't take issue with the claim that games HAVE changed. What you're saying is that they're not necessarily worse now.
I think the main thing is the audience size. There was a large increase in players at the same time that there was a drastic shift away from certain gameplay elements and towards others. As I said before some of this I'm SURE can be attributed to unobjectionable aspects like graphics, polish, marketing, etc. But it seems very likely that this also included watering down the gameplay so as to appeal to more people. Typically when this happens, you're serving each individual person less.
Niche > mainstream is kind of what it comes down to.
Right, I think you've got my opinion down exactly. I don't think games are necessarily worse now than before and that it's quite easy to ignore the facets of MMO gaming that have actually improved in the years since WoW.
As for the niche > mainstream equation, I think it's a bit beyond me to agree or disagree with any certainty. We tend to see them as being in opposition, one alienating the other but from my perspective it's more like a very strange symbiosis. One inevitably drives the other which in turn pushes the pendulum back in the other direction again. Philosophically, I'm leaning more in the direction of believing that niche and mainstream both serve their intended functions in driving along any genre, with some fans of one or the other necessarily being left out in the cold as a result. No getting around that.
You mentioned finding your way through mainstream music to your favorite more niche bands and I've had very similar experiences myself in discovering my musical tastes. Many of today's devs and games are defining themselves in opposition of the mainstream which is why there's a lot of excitement for fans of sandbox/sandpark play. The next generation will incorporate ideas and lessons learned that they cherry-picked from the past decade of gaming, which hopefully will make them be better overall games. I do wonder how you will feel about niche > mainstream should sandbox play become the new dominant paradigm and themepark gets relegated to niche instead!
first to be clear, there are significant differences in the mmorpg's from 10-15 years back (or more). so i am not belittling those changes. however, its interesting to note that a number of us older gamers can look back and think: my gahd, what was i thinking camping that spawn all day.
the sad truth, that i am coming to accept, is that neurologically speaking its becoming more and more evident that the brain's ability to adapt to change as we age does diminish and it does diminish noticeably.
im afraid that neurologically speaking some of us are simply getting older. and i mean that sincerely, not casting any aspersions. but the facts are that as you age your neuronal pathways become less and less "flexible" in forming new connections or altering paths.
note, this is not about intelligence or the ability to process information. it seems that in some ways its easier when you are older. but the ability to form new paths or adapt older ones in new ways is affected (even if you are doing Sudoku every morning).
this is often why older folks are stereotypically seen as not embracing change. neurologically, its just harder. so those things we've enjoyed in the past seem more pleasurable because in a sense they really are more pleasurable. and the reason is that the brain is not having to overcome an increasingly difficult hurdle towards change.
this doesn't mean that everyone over 40 can't change or adapt. but it does mean that it is decreasing over time.
Older games are not better those simply fits to different players than resent games does.
1. If somebody says some show from the 90s is better than Breaking Bad then it's probably either because they truly believe that they prefer that show over Breaking Bad, or because they haven't given Breaking Bad a fair shot. I wouldn't say that they're just a victim to nostalgia because their favorite show happens to be from an earlier time. What even is the argument you guys are trying to make? That the main reason we prefer older games is due to rose colored classes or nostalgia? Then I'd ask the same thing that I already have: Why isn't this the case with TV, movies or music? I haven't heard an answer to this.
2. As people have already pointed out, we're not simply saying "I prefer this type of game over the new ones." People have given specific examples of how games have changed and why they don't like those changes. But for some reason you guys just set it all aside and make up unlikely alternatives to why we prefer something different.
I think it's far more likely that we just prefer those types of games. Take single player RPGs for example. For a long time I've thought that they too have been becoming more mediocre and less "hardcore." They seem to be easier and have more of a focus on cutscenes, scripted events, etc. You probably would've made the same argument about human nature regarding nostalgia and sentiment that you're making right now. However, the games Demon Souls and Dark Souls kind of hurt your argument because they both have precisely filled the role that I was longing for for years. Going back to the "good ol'" days isn't some unattainable mythological goal.
At this point we're going around in circles. In the first post I made that you responded to I explained why I thought the conditions present at the genesis of MMOs differed from how they are now and how they could lend a novelty to those early experiences that simply doesn't exist anymore. I also said that I have no problem with people simply preferring one thing to another. That's not at issue. I'm not one of "you guys" who says it's all rose-colored glasses. If someone wants to make the argument that a certain stye of gameplay was present before WoW and that type of gameplay has largely fallen out of favor I've got no beef.
The opinion you're espousing is far more nuanced than what's been brought up. Saying that you have a preference and it hasn't been served a la Dark Souls is one thing. Saying that RPGs in the past were simply better than they are now lacks nuance, lacks explanation, and cannot help but come off as tainted by nostalgia. I don't know how else to explain this other than to repeat what I've said earlier-- take a poll of any artform and witness how the exact same argument is made time after time after time. Then tell me that nostalgia or the human tendency to romanticize aspects of the past has no bearing.
Fair enough, I probably shouldn't lump you in with a lot other people on this site. I'm just having a hard time understanding what exactly your argument is. At this point it seems like you don't have a problem with people preferring older games, and you don't take issue with the claim that games HAVE changed. What you're saying is that they're not necessarily worse now.
I think the main thing is the audience size. There was a large increase in players at the same time that there was a drastic shift away from certain gameplay elements and towards others. As I said before some of this I'm SURE can be attributed to unobjectionable aspects like graphics, polish, marketing, etc. But it seems very likely that this also included watering down the gameplay so as to appeal to more people. Typically when this happens, you're serving each individual person less.
Niche > mainstream is kind of what it comes down to.
Right, I think you've got my opinion down exactly. I don't think games are necessarily worse now than before and that it's quite easy to ignore the facets of MMO gaming that have actually improved in the years since WoW.
As for the niche > mainstream equation, I think it's a bit beyond me to agree or disagree with any certainty. We tend to see them as being in opposition, one alienating the other but from my perspective it's more like a very strange symbiosis. One inevitably drives the other which in turn pushes the pendulum back in the other direction again. Philosophically, I'm leaning more in the direction of believing that niche and mainstream both serve their intended functions in driving along any genre, with some fans of one or the other necessarily being left out in the cold as a result. No getting around that.
You mentioned finding your way through mainstream music to your favorite more niche bands and I've had very similar experiences myself in discovering my musical tastes. Many of today's devs and games are defining themselves in opposition of the mainstream which is why there's a lot of excitement for fans of sandbox/sandpark play. The next generation will incorporate ideas and lessons learned that they cherry-picked from the past decade of gaming, which hopefully will make them be better overall games. I do wonder how you will feel about niche > mainstream should sandbox play become the new dominant paradigm and themepark gets relegated to niche instead!
Edited for formatting.
Well if sandbox games, or at least the features that define them, are indeed better/more niche than the features that define themeparks then that will never happen - sandbox games will never be the dominant paradigm. However, if that shift back towards sandbox and away from themepark coincides with a shrinking playerbase, then that seems to be in line with what I'm saying. If the playerbase expands as the genre moves back towards sandbox or "oldschool" then yes that would indeed be problematic for my claim.
I wouldn't have a problem with themeparks being a sort of gateway for people to be introduced into the genre so they can then find their niche. However games are more expensive to make than, say, music. I think sandbox players are not currently represented as much as they should be relative to how much of the population they make up. I think this is because of WoW's success and I also think this is changing.
And I don't have any argument against the symbiotic relationship between mainstream and niche, but I don't think it's in opposition with the idea that niche is better. I think the average person consuming niche products is more engrossed/entertained/whatever than the average person consuming mainstream products.
Originally posted by worldalpha People are generally nostalgic. That feeling about games is no different. Everything was bigger, badder, more superior when I was a kid, is a common feeling that isn't always based on reality.
70's Rock, man! All that other stuff since then is just trash! Back then, we had it just right!
It really is a pretty good analogy for the problem with 'old games were the bestest'. Selective memory hard at work.
(I remember a handful of 70s bands quite fondly, too; without forgetting the 70s included Disco and all kinds of other musically revolting dreck.)
Wow. Talk about selective memory. I recall the 70's with music like this and this. Kinda like the old Ford Model T argument, eh? worthless...
Indeed. Your two examples are among the lesser-earning bands of the 70s.
No Carpenters, No Barry Manilow...Debby Boone...Bee Gees...pretty much all of Disco from 1976 on...the Pina Colada Song! Disco Duck! Convoy!
So we're presented with a situation that's pretty analogous to MMOs, in fact; minority opinion pining for a fondly-remembered "quality" that did not actually dominate the industry at the time, and failed to stand up against the 'cheesier' competition for profitability.
Sounds very familiar.
Random polling music-listeners about how music is going, at any given time?
"It all sucks" is a very common response, always, regardless of when the sample is taken, right?
Originally posted by worldalpha People are generally nostalgic. That feeling about games is no different. Everything was bigger, badder, more superior when I was a kid, is a common feeling that isn't always based on reality.
70's Rock, man! All that other stuff since then is just trash! Back then, we had it just right!
It really is a pretty good analogy for the problem with 'old games were the bestest'. Selective memory hard at work.
(I remember a handful of 70s bands quite fondly, too; without forgetting the 70s included Disco and all kinds of other musically revolting dreck.)
Wow. Talk about selective memory. I recall the 70's with music like this and this. Kinda like the old Ford Model T argument, eh? worthless...
Indeed. Your two examples are among the lesser-earning bands of the 70s.
No Carpenters, No Barry Manilow...Debby Boone...Bee Gees...pretty much all of Disco from 1976 on...the Pina Colada Song! Disco Duck! Convoy!
So we're presented with a situation that's pretty analogous to MMOs, in fact; minority opinion pining for a fondly-remembered "quality" that did not actually dominate the industry at the time, and failed to stand up against the 'cheesier' competition for profitability.
Sounds very familiar.
You forgot about the "Captain and Tennille" lol
Top 40 Pop anything sucks ass. Always has and it always will, MMOs included
Illusion: When MMORPGs started to become mainstream notably with UO (17 years ago), I was 9 to 15 years old. I'm a veteran regretting the "good old times".
_________________________
Truth: Or maybe back then you had so much free time and so little responsibilities that you didn't realize how time consuming those "old school" games were for anyone who passed the kid/teenager age and had responsibilities beside sitting in a room playing video games.
Illusion: When MMORPGs started to become mainstream notably with UO (17 years ago), I was 9 to 15 years old. I'm a veteran regretting the "good old times".
_________________________
Truth: Or maybe back then you had so much free time and so little responsibilities that you didn't realize how time consuming those "old school" games were for anyone who passed the kid/teenager age and had responsibilities beside sitting in a room playing video games.
Originally posted by drakaena Because devs used to make games they wanted to play instead of corporation's deciding what will make them the most money. MMOs lost their soul. Sort of like D&D.
I really think this has a lot to do with it. The teams have gotten so large and there are so many people influencing the outcome. I think whatever vision the game creators originally had gets watered down and lost. I think this is why you see people embracing the indie scene and dev studios turning to Kickstarter for funding.
first to be clear, there are significant differences in the mmorpg's from 10-15 years back (or more). so i am not belittling those changes. however, its interesting to note that a number of us older gamers can look back and think: my gahd, what was i thinking camping that spawn all day.
the sad truth, that i am coming to accept, is that neurologically speaking its becoming more and more evident that the brain's ability to adapt to change as we age does diminish and it does diminish noticeably.
im afraid that neurologically speaking some of us are simply getting older. and i mean that sincerely, not casting any aspersions. but the facts are that as you age your neuronal pathways become less and less "flexible" in forming new connections or altering paths.
note, this is not about intelligence or the ability to process information. it seems that in some ways its easier when you are older. but the ability to form new paths or adapt older ones in new ways is affected (even if you are doing Sudoku every morning).
this is often why older folks are stereotypically seen as not embracing change. neurologically, its just harder. so those things we've enjoyed in the past seem more pleasurable because in a sense they really are more pleasurable. and the reason is that the brain is not having to overcome an increasingly difficult hurdle towards change.
this doesn't mean that everyone over 40 can't change or adapt. but it does mean that it is decreasing over time.
Sorry, gotta disagree, its absolutely NOT the lack of ability to 'adapt' its simple as so many have pointed out, games are CRAP now. they are meant to hit you like a brick FAST, push you into the item shop as quick as possible, then just as quick a week or so later, boot you right back out. Games are empty, shallow, have nothing to 'keep' you there once your done the 'main bit you saw on that preview' part. truth is, games now days are like all other things, hit the biggest pool of people, get the most you can from them, in the shortest amount of time.
Trust me, if it was the ability or inability to 'adapt' we 'old fart gamers' would not be blowing past, destroying(And i mean utterly destroying) the game while many of the 'pro gamer' 15 yr olds sit there with their jaws on the floor as we blast though content THEY thought was difficult. We HAVE adapted. Truth is, we have so much LESS to adapt to now, so much LESS to learn, and so much LESS to have to figure out. Adapting doesn't mean we have to like this new shallow empty experience. We expect MORE. We get less.
Did you read where I said I was looking for opinions? Did you choose to ignore that part because "ultimately" it's subjective. I guess you could say a 5 year old on guitar hero is better than Clapton too. But the readers are not so damn dumb that they cant make up their own minds. So let them. Lets hear the examples. I know it subjective.
Is it possible to give a direct answer? Geez.
BTW I know its just opinions. OK? Its subjective. We knew that on page 1. Why respond at all?
Because in the end no matter how much you try to quantify and rationalize your choices, people will make up their own mind.
There are a ton of real life examples where quantifying your choices leads nowhere. Do you honestly think the one with the fastest response time, the greatest processing power and the longest list of features comes always on top?
Some products may simply be holistically better or hit the right spot.
Again, no shit. If it's so pointless, don't respond. I asked a simple question. The answer is simple to give. Just an opinion. If you don't want to join the conversation, why butt in?
You don't have any examples. See, easy.
If you expect only the people who don't think it's pointless to reply, how will you know if it is pointless or not?
If you started a discussion about how the universe is either geo- or heliocentric, should I refrain from pointing out that both are wrong?
I didn't start a discussion. I asked a simple question. Should I refrain from pointing out you have yet to give examples of how newer games are better than older in your opinion.
You are free to point out how utterly pointless it is to ask, but at least have the common courtesy of answering the question.
Just a question. Pretty simple. You can even laugh at me the whole time, but at least answer.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Things were less convenient in the past. True or false.
Games were more art and less math in the past.
Most of the people I know in real life that have played the older games, say the older games were better as well. I don't really know anyone who is still playing mmorpgs.
"Things were less convenient in the past" True. That is one good reason why older games are worse for me.
"Games were more art and less math in teh past" ... well that is arguable. What is art? I would say WoW has better art design in the visual department than the "old" MMOs.
I say old games were worse. It is just subjective.
I like you. You can answer a question. Quick and to the point.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by worldalpha People are generally nostalgic. That feeling about games is no different. Everything was bigger, badder, more superior when I was a kid, is a common feeling that isn't always based on reality.
70's Rock, man! All that other stuff since then is just trash! Back then, we had it just right!
And for anyone who might doubt it: C&T with classic 70s! MMmmm and this classic! And the biggest hit of all.It really is a pretty good analogy for the problem with 'old games were the bestest'. Selective memory hard at work.(I remember a handful of 70s bands quite fondly, too; without forgetting the 70s included Disco and all kinds of other musically revolting dreck.)
Wow. Talk about selective memory. I recall the 70's with music like this and this. Kinda like the old Ford Model T argument, eh? worthless...
Indeed. Your two examples are among the lesser-earning bands of the 70s.No Carpenters, No Barry Manilow...Debby Boone...Bee Gees...pretty much all of Disco from 1976 on...the Pina Colada Song! Disco Duck! Convoy!So we're presented with a situation that's pretty analogous to MMOs, in fact; minority opinion pining for a fondly-remembered "quality" that did not actually dominate the industry at the time, and failed to stand up against the 'cheesier' competition for profitability.Sounds very familiar.Random polling music-listeners about how music is going, at any given time?"It all sucks" is a very common response, always, regardless of when the sample is taken, right?Huh. Is it the same guys?
Don't forget The Beatles! My musical tastes are much more eclectic than my MMORPG tastes. I enjoy classical, jazz, pop, rock genres of music. I LIKED the Pina Colada and Convoy songs! Barry Manilow had a lot of songs I like.
Unlike MMOs, I rarely listen to one artist in music at any one time. I listen to a lot of different artists. Maybe that separates me from many players more than my desire to play in just one living, breathing, well thought out world.
The analogy fails when you compare the many genres of music to ONE genre of computer games. Like music, there are good heavy metal bands and bad ones. Just because a band is heavy metal does not mean I automatically like them. Music is not good, for me, just because it is old(er).
However, there is a part of music that connects points in our life. Couples that have "our song" that defines some dramatic moment in their lives, for example. Music, many times, can trigger good (or bad) memories. Smells have that effect, too. I do not know if games have that affect. Maybe they do?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I'm not sure how it fits in... at least I'm not sure how it fits in as opposition to what I'm saying. I think the MMO genre being new is supporting evidence for my separate claim that WoW's success caused the industry to make more themeparks than it should. The market hasn't figured out what it should be making yet because it's new. Therefore it's very possible that sandbox or "oldschool" advocates are currently being underserved because the market thought themeparks were going to be easier money than they turned out to be.... thanks to WoW's success.
Comparison to TV or music isn't valid here. Seinfeld or Led Zeppelin are perfectly enjoyable today if that's what you like. Games change a lot more than other media over the years and you can't just go back and get the same experience from an old game. Especially with an MMO where the game might be shut down or totally different than it was back in the day.
It's also painfully obvious that MMOs have changed their target market over the years after WoW which has drastically effected gameplay, and it's pretty reasonable for people who liked them the way they were before to feel pretty isolated now.
I don't know how much good it does to whine on forums though. The mainstream will always go where they see the most money. That's just the way business works. Far better to find niche MMOs you like and support the hell out of them than expect the "big boys" to change to suit your needs.
Whining on forums lets people know that there is at least that much money to be made by making those types of games. It's one way of I'm sure many for developers to figure out which niches are over or under served.
At this point we're going around in circles. In the first post I made that you responded to I explained why I thought the conditions present at the genesis of MMOs differed from how they are now and how they could lend a novelty to those early experiences that simply doesn't exist anymore. I also said that I have no problem with people simply preferring one thing to another. That's not at issue. I'm not one of "you guys" who says it's all rose-colored glasses. If someone wants to make the argument that a certain stye of gameplay was present before WoW and that type of gameplay has largely fallen out of favor I've got no beef.
The opinion you're espousing is far more nuanced than what's been brought up. Saying that you have a preference and it hasn't been served a la Dark Souls is one thing. Saying that RPGs in the past were simply better than they are now lacks nuance, lacks explanation, and cannot help but come off as tainted by nostalgia. I don't know how else to explain this other than to repeat what I've said earlier-- take a poll of any artform and witness how the exact same argument is made time after time after time. Then tell me that nostalgia or the human tendency to romanticize aspects of the past has no bearing.
My theory is the rapid development of technology. The more we learn to have, the more we want.
Old / older games were rudimentary at best, we grew into them with not really knowing what expect from the future of games and gaming. As we noticed the pace of new tech and ways of doing games quicken, we learnt to accept chance much faster, to the point where we are now. Now we are actually wanting more than can be delivered as opposed to what it used to be like.
We "olden gamers" grew with the industry and the evolution of games was rapid to the current point where it has pretty much seized.
Yes, exactly!
Great article except for the last two paragraphs.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Fair enough, I probably shouldn't lump you in with a lot other people on this site. I'm just having a hard time understanding what exactly your argument is. At this point it seems like you don't have a problem with people preferring older games, and you don't take issue with the claim that games HAVE changed. What you're saying is that they're not necessarily worse now.
I think the main thing is the audience size. There was a large increase in players at the same time that there was a drastic shift away from certain gameplay elements and towards others. As I said before some of this I'm SURE can be attributed to unobjectionable aspects like graphics, polish, marketing, etc. But it seems very likely that this also included watering down the gameplay so as to appeal to more people. Typically when this happens, you're serving each individual person less.
Niche > mainstream is kind of what it comes down to.
"Things were less convenient in the past" True. That is one good reason why older games are worse for me.
"Games were more art and less math in teh past" ... well that is arguable. What is art? I would say WoW has better art design in the visual department than the "old" MMOs.
I say old games were worse. It is just subjective.
Is that really true though? Those old games were considered successes if they got up to 1 million subs, then WoW changed everything by getting 10 times that by being more streamlined and casual friendly. Probably the next step will be "MMOs" on consoles or even tablets which will cut out even more of the core gameplay in the name of "accessibility" I can already see them going that way with the reduction in number of skills and "action combat" which seems to fit better in console games.
It's a given that people like us will probably hate those games and also likely that they will attract a huge new audience of kids and more casual adults. I do think there is a hardcore/oldschool MMO market but I don't see it ever becomming the mainstream again. Your next dream MMO is far more likely to be crowdfunded than come out of a big studio.
Oh no absolutely. I don't ever expect "hardcore" or "oldschool" games to be the mainstream or the majority. But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be more of them than there currently are.
Right, I think you've got my opinion down exactly. I don't think games are necessarily worse now than before and that it's quite easy to ignore the facets of MMO gaming that have actually improved in the years since WoW.
As for the niche > mainstream equation, I think it's a bit beyond me to agree or disagree with any certainty. We tend to see them as being in opposition, one alienating the other but from my perspective it's more like a very strange symbiosis. One inevitably drives the other which in turn pushes the pendulum back in the other direction again. Philosophically, I'm leaning more in the direction of believing that niche and mainstream both serve their intended functions in driving along any genre, with some fans of one or the other necessarily being left out in the cold as a result. No getting around that.
You mentioned finding your way through mainstream music to your favorite more niche bands and I've had very similar experiences myself in discovering my musical tastes. Many of today's devs and games are defining themselves in opposition of the mainstream which is why there's a lot of excitement for fans of sandbox/sandpark play. The next generation will incorporate ideas and lessons learned that they cherry-picked from the past decade of gaming, which hopefully will make them be better overall games. I do wonder how you will feel about niche > mainstream should sandbox play become the new dominant paradigm and themepark gets relegated to niche instead!
Edited for formatting.
Older games are not better those simply fits to different players than resent games does.
Well if sandbox games, or at least the features that define them, are indeed better/more niche than the features that define themeparks then that will never happen - sandbox games will never be the dominant paradigm. However, if that shift back towards sandbox and away from themepark coincides with a shrinking playerbase, then that seems to be in line with what I'm saying. If the playerbase expands as the genre moves back towards sandbox or "oldschool" then yes that would indeed be problematic for my claim.
I wouldn't have a problem with themeparks being a sort of gateway for people to be introduced into the genre so they can then find their niche. However games are more expensive to make than, say, music. I think sandbox players are not currently represented as much as they should be relative to how much of the population they make up. I think this is because of WoW's success and I also think this is changing.
And I don't have any argument against the symbiotic relationship between mainstream and niche, but I don't think it's in opposition with the idea that niche is better. I think the average person consuming niche products is more engrossed/entertained/whatever than the average person consuming mainstream products.
Indeed. Your two examples are among the lesser-earning bands of the 70s.
No Carpenters, No Barry Manilow...Debby Boone...Bee Gees...pretty much all of Disco from 1976 on...the Pina Colada Song! Disco Duck! Convoy!
So we're presented with a situation that's pretty analogous to MMOs, in fact; minority opinion pining for a fondly-remembered "quality" that did not actually dominate the industry at the time, and failed to stand up against the 'cheesier' competition for profitability.
Sounds very familiar.
Random polling music-listeners about how music is going, at any given time?
"It all sucks" is a very common response, always, regardless of when the sample is taken, right?
Huh. Is it the same guys?
You forgot about the "Captain and Tennille" lol
Top 40 Pop anything sucks ass. Always has and it always will, MMOs included
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Theeeeere it is!
More Forum Cool Points in anti-popularity. Always. Why the biggest selling video games, movies, music, anything--universal disdain from the hipsters.
Illusion: When MMORPGs started to become mainstream notably with UO (17 years ago), I was 9 to 15 years old. I'm a veteran regretting the "good old times".
_________________________
Truth: Or maybe back then you had so much free time and so little responsibilities that you didn't realize how time consuming those "old school" games were for anyone who passed the kid/teenager age and had responsibilities beside sitting in a room playing video games.
Just saying.
My computer is better than yours.
Do you think UO was more time consuming than WoW?
I really think this has a lot to do with it. The teams have gotten so large and there are so many people influencing the outcome. I think whatever vision the game creators originally had gets watered down and lost. I think this is why you see people embracing the indie scene and dev studios turning to Kickstarter for funding.
Sorry, gotta disagree, its absolutely NOT the lack of ability to 'adapt' its simple as so many have pointed out, games are CRAP now. they are meant to hit you like a brick FAST, push you into the item shop as quick as possible, then just as quick a week or so later, boot you right back out. Games are empty, shallow, have nothing to 'keep' you there once your done the 'main bit you saw on that preview' part. truth is, games now days are like all other things, hit the biggest pool of people, get the most you can from them, in the shortest amount of time.
Trust me, if it was the ability or inability to 'adapt' we 'old fart gamers' would not be blowing past, destroying(And i mean utterly destroying) the game while many of the 'pro gamer' 15 yr olds sit there with their jaws on the floor as we blast though content THEY thought was difficult. We HAVE adapted. Truth is, we have so much LESS to adapt to now, so much LESS to learn, and so much LESS to have to figure out. Adapting doesn't mean we have to like this new shallow empty experience. We expect MORE. We get less.
I didn't start a discussion. I asked a simple question. Should I refrain from pointing out you have yet to give examples of how newer games are better than older in your opinion.
You are free to point out how utterly pointless it is to ask, but at least have the common courtesy of answering the question.
Just a question. Pretty simple. You can even laugh at me the whole time, but at least answer.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
pfft..good one.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I like you. You can answer a question. Quick and to the point.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Unlike MMOs, I rarely listen to one artist in music at any one time. I listen to a lot of different artists. Maybe that separates me from many players more than my desire to play in just one living, breathing, well thought out world.
The analogy fails when you compare the many genres of music to ONE genre of computer games. Like music, there are good heavy metal bands and bad ones. Just because a band is heavy metal does not mean I automatically like them. Music is not good, for me, just because it is old(er).
However, there is a part of music that connects points in our life. Couples that have "our song" that defines some dramatic moment in their lives, for example. Music, many times, can trigger good (or bad) memories. Smells have that effect, too. I do not know if games have that affect. Maybe they do?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR