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PvE Endgame for Non-Raiders

MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,501

Has SOE indicated yet what PvE content will be available at endgame for non-raiders?

 

Thanks!

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Comments

  • GrahorGrahor Member Posts: 828

    What possible end-game PvE content even theoretically can be created for non-raiders? I mean, end-game is by definition the end: you've gone through all the content there is. All that left is repeating the same content multiple time to get money/items, aka raiding.

     

    I mean, there is crafting and trading, but I consider it to be a PvP content, since you don't compete against environment, but against other players on the market. Housing and so on needs money which you get through farming which is pretty much raiding, only for gold and not for items. What else can anyone think of?

  • FreezzoFreezzo Member UncommonPosts: 235

    How about hard dungeons? It should be possible to design dungeon encounters as hard as raid ones. Smaller group content? Even two-player things are possible. He's not talking about solo (because endgame kinda means grouping up and meeting people, however shocking it might be), so look at the group sizes. You don't need 10-20+ people for a challenge...

    And if you really want the big groups and not the hassle of raiding and organising, then world raids like they have in RIFT or GW2 (even though they are different implementations) are a possibility.

    So I guess there's plenty to do without raiding, if only the devs made it possible...

    As a direct answer: not that I know of :P

    "We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
    And for MMORPGs ever so true...

  • GrahorGrahor Member Posts: 828

    You mean, small-group repeating content/small group hard mode dungeons/unorganized large-groups repeating boss fights are not actually "raiding"? Well, then, in this case, yeah, that's a possibility.

     

    But I always considered "raiding" to be a repeat of the same content for reward, independently of groups; that's why I don't "raid" (I've done the dungeon once, I'm not repeating it), don't play PvE mmorpgs after the end game and don't expect anything but "raiding" from them.

  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904


    Originally posted by Grahor
    What possible end-game PvE content even theoretically can be created for non-raiders? I mean, end-game is by definition the end: you've gone through all the content there is. All that left is repeating the same content multiple time to get money/items, aka raiding.

    .... Some logic you got there..

     


    I mean, there is crafting and trading, but I consider it to be a PvP content, since you don't compete against environment, but against other players on the market. Housing and so on needs money which you get through farming which is pretty much raiding, only for gold and not for items. What else can anyone think of?

    Open your mind a bit more.

    Lets look at the problem, PvE is players verses environment.
    Environment encompasses: mobs, terrain, props, resources, and im sure there is more.

    The biggest and most plausible idea is "world events" or what ever they are calling it.

    Lets say a bridge needs to be built in order for players have access to a new area, This effort can only be done with the help of a huge community and a lot of time.
    You got people shoving dirt, Building bricks, And people defending the work site.

    There is so much potential in actually manipulating the environment as an endgame.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    Originally posted by Grahor  What else can anyone think of?

    Well, non PVP players enjoying the game without the need to be in a big guild that DEMANDS you to be there for them every days and play according to their wishes.

    You know, people who play for fun instead of gearmill progression.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member CommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    I mean, there is crafting and trading, but I consider it to be a PvP content, since you don't compete against environment, but against other players on the market. Housing and so on needs money which you get through farming which is pretty much raiding, only for gold and not for items. What else can anyone think of?

    Open your mind a bit more.

    Lets look at the problem, PvE is players verses environment.
    Environment encompasses: mobs, terrain, props, resources, and im sure there is more.

    The biggest and most plausible idea is "world events" or what ever they are calling it.

     

    Lets say a bridge needs to be built in order for players have access to a new area, This effort can only be done with the help of a huge community and a lot of time.
    You got people shoving dirt, Building bricks, And people defending the work site.

    There is so much potential in actually manipulating the environment as an endgame.

    Things like that have already been annouced. The part about city building and doing quests in the areas to decide what happens and how it develops. What your describing however seems to be just wow dailies that have been done to death.

  • ScalplessScalpless Member UncommonPosts: 1,426
    Originally posted by Grahor

    You mean, small-group repeating content/small group hard mode dungeons/unorganized large-groups repeating boss fights are not actually "raiding"? Well, then, in this case, yeah, that's a possibility.

     

    But I always considered "raiding" to be a repeat of the same content for reward, independently of groups; that's why I don't "raid" (I've done the dungeon once, I'm not repeating it), don't play PvE mmorpgs after the end game and don't expect anything but "raiding" from them.

    "Raiding" refers to large-scale group content, usually with at least 12 player characters. Small group content is just... well, small group content.

    I don't think they've talked about end-game at all. Maybe EQN won't have any raiding.

     

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by Freezzo

    How about hard dungeons? It should be possible to design dungeon encounters as hard as raid ones. Smaller group content? Even two-player things are possible. He's not talking about solo (because endgame kinda means grouping up and meeting people, however shocking it might be), so look at the group sizes. You don't need 10-20+ people for a challenge...

    And if you really want the big groups and not the hassle of raiding and organising, then world raids like they have in RIFT or GW2 (even though they are different implementations) are a possibility.

    So I guess there's plenty to do without raiding, if only the devs made it possible...

    As a direct answer: not that I know of :P

    There no instances or will be very little in the form of instancing in EQN so no hardmode dunguen runs although im sure their be more challenging areas.

  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904


    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Nitth   I mean, there is crafting and trading, but I consider it to be a PvP content, since you don't compete against environment, but against other players on the market. Housing and so on needs money which you get through farming which is pretty much raiding, only for gold and not for items. What else can anyone think of?
    Open your mind a bit more. Lets look at the problem, PvE is players verses environment. Environment encompasses: mobs, terrain, props, resources, and im sure there is more. The biggest and most plausible idea is "world events" or what ever they are calling it.   Lets say a bridge needs to be built in order for players have access to a new area, This effort can only be done with the help of a huge community and a lot of time. You got people shoving dirt, Building bricks, And people defending the work site. There is so much potential in actually manipulating the environment as an endgame.
    Things like that have already been annouced. The part about city building and doing quests in the areas to decide what happens and how it develops. What your describing however seems to be just wow dailies that have been done to death.

    The topic was what is a alternative to traditional raiding endgame...what does it matter if its already been announced?

    How on earth did you come to the conclusion it would be like wow dailies?
    Were not talking personal 'caps' here, if anything were talking about things on the scale of AQ gates but on a higher rotation.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member CommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by Nitth

     

    The topic was what is a alternative to traditional raiding endgame...what does it matter if its already been announced?

    How on earth did you come to the conclusion it would be like wow dailies?
    Were not talking personal 'caps' here, if anything were talking about things on the scale of AQ gates but on a higher rotation.

    I hope they come up with something more interesting than....you can bring as much dirt to the pile as you want for their non-raiding end game.

  • neorandomneorandom Member Posts: 1,681

    if i want to do something repeatedly for little to no reward, i can just sit at work staring at the floor and picking my nose.

     

    i play games to get away from the boring ness of reality.   if i play this game ill be out there exploring the world, looking for interesting things to do battle with, cleaving idiots skulls if they allow pvp, and all that sort of fun.

     

    if i wanted to sit around a mail box watching a guy dance his naked elf and beg for coins while i wait for a group finder app to send me to a raid or dungeon or some crap, i wouldnt have quit wow years ago.

  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904


    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Nitth   The topic was what is a alternative to traditional raiding endgame...what does it matter if its already been announced? How on earth did you come to the conclusion it would be like wow dailies? Were not talking personal 'caps' here, if anything were talking about things on the scale of AQ gates but on a higher rotation.
    I hope they come up with something more interesting than....you can bring as much dirt to the pile as you want for their non-raiding end game.

    Do you actually want an alternative to raiding or raiding with a twist?

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • donpopukidonpopuki Member Posts: 591
    We simply just don't know how this game will turn out. Will it play like a traditional MMO or will the emergent AI with prodecdural generated content change the whole equation?

    However which ever system turns out to be true one thing is for sure, there must be some sort of progession. Well I hope so anyways. That's why I left GW2 even though it's a fun game, no end game progession.
  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Nitth

    Originally posted by DamonVile

    Originally posted by Nitth   The topic was what is a alternative to traditional raiding endgame...what does it matter if its already been announced? How on earth did you come to the conclusion it would be like wow dailies? Were not talking personal 'caps' here, if anything were talking about things on the scale of AQ gatesbut on a higher rotation.
    I hope they come up with something more interesting than....you can bring as much dirt to the pile as you want for their non-raiding end game.

    Do you actually want an alternative to raiding or raiding with a twist?

    two alternatives that existed in EQ1 and GW1

     

    EQ1 - the AA system, an alternative to the gear grind, you could be level capped but still be enhancing your character

    Guild Wars1 - the skill point system, you could be level capped but still earn skill points to unlock more skills  (it was more of an horizontal progression, ie  gave you more variety of skills to pick from)

     

    I'm hoping EQN progression is similar to GW1

  • CamoebCamoeb Member UncommonPosts: 53
    Although it's probably early to really know what it'll be like I would guess that there will be more to do for the non-raider. Between class unlocking & all of the events going on there should be endless amounts of content. I just really can't see raiding work in this game at least from what little they have said about EQN, unless they instance raid dungeons. Otherwise all targets would be a one time kill.
  • Dessl0ckDessl0ck Member UncommonPosts: 3
    The question itself is flawed, for  "End-game raiding" to exist there would need to be an "End-game", which there is not. With no leveling at all EQ:N is likely to be a whole new experience game-wise, I think it will be unlike anything we have seen before & I for one couldn't be more excited.

    image
  • FionnFionn Member Posts: 68
    SOE has already stated that the "end game" which people are so used to will be different in EQN.  Bosses and Contested content do not spawn the in the same locations, Undergound caverns change over times make the game unpredictable and not stagnant like other MMOs.
  • feena750feena750 Member UncommonPosts: 330

    They have given some hints that make me optimistic although it is too early to tell for sure.  Here are a few.

     

    1. No levels - You progress by finding more classes, and advancing some abilities, but you don't have the zone v segregation that other MMOs have.  This alone pretty much makes the whole world end game.

     

    2. Dynamic Monster group AI - They have said that monsters are smart and move, attack, grow / shrink in group size, ect.  depending on what is happening to and around them.  This gives me hope that content will always be different.

     

    3. Constantly changing underground - They mentioned that the underground areas will change from things such as earthquakes so that there is always new caves, dungeons, ect. to find and explore out in the open world.

     

    4. Rally calls - Rally calls are large multi month long events that affect the world.  We don't know a ton about them, but there will always be new ones going on so I think that will provide some good content.

  • bcbullybcbully Member RarePosts: 9,686
    Pvp, in all shapes and sizes. If not I hope you enjoy doing the same month after month. The same you've been doing for years.
  • DamonVileDamonVile Member CommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by DamonVile

    Originally posted by Nitth   The topic was what is a alternative to traditional raiding endgame...what does it matter if its already been announced? How on earth did you come to the conclusion it would be like wow dailies? Were not talking personal 'caps' here, if anything were talking about things on the scale of AQ gates but on a higher rotation.
    I hope they come up with something more interesting than....you can bring as much dirt to the pile as you want for their non-raiding end game.

     

    Do you actually want an alternative to raiding or raiding with a twist?

    I don't raid anymore so yes, of course. I just don't think resources gathering is going to have the same level of fun. If being innovative was easy, everyone could do it.

  • Magna104Magna104 Member UncommonPosts: 3

    If I understand the developers' intent correctly the answer to your question is that sh-- is going to happen, and when sh-- happens, you'll have to decide what you're going to do about it.  In other words, it'll be a dynamic world where what's going on "right now" is not the same as what went on last week, and you'll have a part to play in it.  For example, NPC nasties might slowly start congregating and if you don't kick butt and stop them, they'll eventually form an army and burn Freeport to the ground.  Then, you'll have to choose to drive them off and help rebuild it, or, not.  

    So, end-game PVE isn't really an end game.  It looks like you going around the world being a hero, or a villian, or whatever you want to be, and having an impact.  As with any game they'll periodically release new stuff into the world for you to either discover or be rewarded with so that your character progresses and changes over time.

  • BarryManilowBarryManilow Member UncommonPosts: 701
    Originally posted by Grahor

    What possible end-game PvE content even theoretically can be created for non-raiders? I mean, end-game is by definition the end: you've gone through all the content there is. All that left is repeating the same content multiple time to get money/items, aka raiding.

     

    I mean, there is crafting and trading, but I consider it to be a PvP content, since you don't compete against environment, but against other players on the market. Housing and so on needs money which you get through farming which is pretty much raiding, only for gold and not for items. What else can anyone think of?

    So end game to you is just a treasure hunt with your guild and nothing else?  That kind of Theme park crap is what I want to avoid.

  • ApraxisApraxis Member UncommonPosts: 1,509
    Originally posted by Grahor

    What possible end-game PvE content even theoretically can be created for non-raiders? I mean, end-game is by definition the end: you've gone through all the content there is. All that left is repeating the same content multiple time to get money/items, aka raiding.

     

    I mean, there is crafting and trading, but I consider it to be a PvP content, since you don't compete against environment, but against other players on the market. Housing and so on needs money which you get through farming which is pretty much raiding, only for gold and not for items. What else can anyone think of?

    Yeap.. crafting and trading is more of a pvp content.. and gathering really depent on the environment, which we know very little from.

    But, it is a sandbox, it is a ever evolving world, with no end game, or only end game.

    With other words what will be your pve endgame, or gameplay? Beside of building, gathering, crafting, trading, community interaction/building and stuff like that your pve content will be reacting to the evolving world, like reacting to the recent ork uproar near Freeport. Like reacting to the devasting destruction of a dragon on another place in the world.

    Basicly, the combination of the emergent AI, permanent change(rallying calls), basicly the interaction between players and environment will create pve content, sometimes more randomly, sometimes more event like, or both to some extent.

    And you will also have your fair share of exploring and random dungeons(procedural generated underground).. with other words sandbox stuff.

    I even don't know, if we will see classical raiding in EQN.. it somehow doesn't fit in very well, although raiding was a big part for EQ1/2.

    But finally, we really have to wait to see all that in action to predict anything more specific.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    bcbully

    I'm not so sure about that. The post above you lined out a great list of what SoE has mentioned which point to having multiple things to do that change over time. With a typical molded themepark I'd have to agree with you on the repetitiveness without PvP but when you start talking about changing procedural content multiple levels below and a world which size is only limited by server side hardware it doesn't seem like a similar comparison.

    The big one as far as personal progression was touched on by Camoeb. Classes will not just be handed out by the same NPC for everyone, SoE stated it would be different between players. Once a new class is gained the progress seems manifold. First is the added abilities it brings to you overall, to use with your existing classes. Second is that this is a new class and needs to be geared through all the tiers. Third is that there was talk about accessories to go along with the gear that allow you to more customize your "build". Even if not all 40 classes are available to one character just the process of finding and leveling each sounds like it will take a really long time.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,194

    There are TONS of ideas but not like SOE is much on the creative side,anything useful would end up cash shop or sold outright in an expansion.

    Square Enix is the developer who IS creative,they have always been more so than any other developer and by a long shot.

    Here is an example of ONE of Square's recent ideas>>>Players can play mobs in the game,unlock new mobs then take that to the mob>mob pvp stage.You can also combine spells/abilities utilizing a sort of multiclass mob design.

    ARENA again utilizing mobs.What Square did was create a sort of magical snap shot idea,you had to capture an imprint of a mob,then you could take that mob to the pvp arena.

    How about that often over used or mis-used EVENTS topic?Square has Besieged,you could take that very idea and grow with it,tons more can be done with that idea.Just one simple example would be what SOE has already done,if you are say the player that gets the final blow on a super boss in an event,you could get a trophy for your house.

    How about instead of selling mounts or having them magically appear out of thin air,copy Square's idea of questing and hatching your own egg into a pet.The options here are again limitless,again look at Square Enix for ideas.

    How about the entire crafting area?Once you maximize a craft,you can do new content to unlock super crafts,like perhaps crafting your own house or being able to imbue.

    How about the simplest idea ever and again >>yes Square Enix,avoid the END game altogether or at least for many years to come.That is done by utilizing a sub class design,that gives your player tons more versatility and years of leveling each class all on the same player.The fact that SOE never understood the simple fact that a player SHOULD be able to learn more than one class or craft is ridiculous.

     

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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