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A Why not? moment .. Make SWTOR's graphic engine open source and let fans fix it

2

Comments

  • KarteliKarteli Member CommonPosts: 2,646
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    It's a wonderful idealistic concept and will be a total disaster.

     

    Yes, a few talented SWTOR fans may get stuck in and work long hours (in their spare time) to attempt to produce a few miracle fixes and a whole bunch of small optimizations.

     

    But a whole bunch of people will simply take the code and startup their own SWTOR-EMU servers. They'll say it's because they need a test environment...

     

    Every outfit on the web that sells illegal botting tools, aiming and radar hacks, etc. will immediately get to work 24/7 on analyzing the source code. They have no interest in fixing the game, all they'd want to know is how they can build more and better "helper programs" that they can sell to players. They will be the most motivated group "working on the code", because they would be the only ones who gain financial reward for their efforts.

    Which was why I limited my efforts to graphics only.  It's not a complete Rage, but certainly a request worthy of interest.  Any network code or game code can be kept off limits by the setting Of boundaries (hence i/O requirements request).  A main area of interest is specifically The graphics, no matter how tricky.  Not a cage full of Wookies, mind you but it could be close to the task.

     

    EA complained in 2011'ish (pre-launch) that the games limitations were due to the Hero Engine.  To which Hero fired back a response implicating EA (linked earlier by another).  If the untested alpha Hero Engine is a culprit, lets have at it!

     

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • neorandomneorandom Member Posts: 1,681
    just drop dx9 and make the game dx11/12.  problem solved.
  • XthosXthos Member UncommonPosts: 2,703

    EA does not seem very open, from what I have seen.  I highly doubt this would happen, even if people could 'fix' this for them.

     

    Their are other titles that EA has control over that I wish they would get involved in and share things, but I have long ago lost any hope of this happening. 

  • KarteliKarteli Member CommonPosts: 2,646
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by Ridelynn

    Yeah, you should actually read through that thread on the SWTOR forums. I made it through about page 4. Most people there are right, and the OP (and this OP) are pretty much smoking crack hoping someone else will come in and do what they want done without a shred of an idea of what it means.

    Uhh yeah take more of the stuff you accuse others of taking ...

     

    EQ1 changed engines and early on made 2 graphics engines .. one for old stuff, one for new stuff (2 engines in the game)..  The expansion was Kunark.  That Jump in expansions was definitely one To remember .. then I saw the Light, and I realized why companies come up to Speed sometimes.. they want to stay relevant and have customers.

     

    So, you are wrong, misinformed, and yet another person misguided by Andryah and the debacle that is the SWTOR "official" forums! :P

    Do you actually have the skills to do any of this yourself or are you just perroting what you've seen other fans say should be done ?

    Someones people have skills you are not privy to.  If an engine revamp is possible, then you will know, if you are also involved.  Short answer = yes (with a team).  .. question to you:  why would you assume anyone who cares lacks skills?

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 10,749
    Originally posted by neorandom
    just drop dx9 and make the game dx11/12.  problem solved.

    or drop Directx altogether, the clever guys at AMD are developing their own system, i think its called mantle, that does not use directx, it could be the real way forward for game engines tbhimage

  • NevulusNevulus Member UncommonPosts: 1,288

    Never going to happen so stop wasting your energy and move on.

     

    Albeit a modified version, it is still the Hero Engine and not EA's engine. Furthermore EA does not have their consumer's better interest at hand, only their shareholders. 

     

    You can't "just" single out the graphics portion and have players modify that without it affecting the network code or how it throttles assets via sockets. Maybe you have some inside information that I don't, in which case do tell, I'm all ears. If not, then you are just theory-crafting a moot point that will never make it anywhere.

     

    Let's focus on REAL solutions and not make-believe unicorns. And please leave the code talk to real developers with working knowledge.

     

     

  • DraemosDraemos Member UncommonPosts: 1,518
    Originally posted by Karteli

    Would Simutronics really object if their First MMORPG was made better?  Ya know, instead of a Hero Engine stinker?  It's in their interest to keep Hero in the headlines, and reworking EA's code won't affect them.

    Is this a serious question?

    Yes... Simutronics would definitely object if their licensed source code was made open source, and I don't give a rat's ass how significantly it was modified.

     

  • karmathkarmath Member UncommonPosts: 895

    They cannot change the core engine of the game in any large way. They bought a license for the engine. They did not develop it themselves, even in beta the community made a massive noise about using something else or making their own. They ignored it, closed threads and banned people on the forums in response.

    This game deserves the death it gets. While I feel for hardcore fans of Star Wars as I am one myself, this game needs to die and every single last person at EA and Bioware that had anything to do with decision making needs to be fired and banned from the industry.

    Then and only then will we get a online game worthy of the IP. Every single cent and every time you log in only makes your wait for something better longer. Its as simple as that.

  • KarteliKarteli Member CommonPosts: 2,646
    Originally posted by Nevulus

    Never going to happen so stop wasting your energy and move on.

     

    Albeit a modified version, it is still the Hero Engine and not EA's engine. Furthermore EA does not have their consumer's better interest at hand, only their shareholders. 

     

    You can't "just" single out the graphics portion and have players modify that without it affecting the network code or how it throttles assets via sockets. Maybe you have some inside information that I don't, in which case do tell, I'm all ears. If not, then you are just theory-crafting a moot point that will never make it anywhere.

     

    Let's focus on REAL solutions and not make-believe unicorns. And please leave the code talk to real developers with working knowledge.

    The real Trials here would be to convince others that there is no other real solution.  All potential solutions Of this game have not shown many results.   Listen to Obi-Wan and use the force :P

     

    You do have a point with EA not being willing to help their own game much, agree there.  At least if the graphics portion was made available and sanitized, it would eliminate that from being the culprit .. then it would be less about Hero and more about EA (which is probably what EA would fear).

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • VolmokVolmok Member UncommonPosts: 64
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    It's a wonderful idealistic concept and will be a total disaster.

     

    Yes, a few talented SWTOR fans may get stuck in and work long hours (in their spare time) to attempt to produce a few miracle fixes and a whole bunch of small optimizations.

     

    But a whole bunch of people will simply take the code and startup their own SWTOR-EMU servers. They'll say it's because they need a test environment...

     

    Every outfit on the web that sells illegal botting tools, aiming and radar hacks, etc. will immediately get to work 24/7 on analyzing the source code. They have no interest in fixing the game, all they'd want to know is how they can build more and better "helper programs" that they can sell to players. They will be the most motivated group "working on the code", because they would be the only ones who gain financial reward for their efforts.

    I think this is where many people are wrong. The open-source community is one of the most skilled there is.

    Just browse some of the linux distro forums and you'll see different skills applied everywhere; you do not have to be a developer to contribute to an open-source project, if you have managerial skills then lend a hand in managing the people ;)

    Many games have been remade by the open-source community and even improved, just take a look at OpenTTD; if you ever played the original TTD and try this one out you would be amazed. Also there are some that improved the 8bit textures and now you have HD textures. So everyone can lend a helping hand to a project and that is where the open-source community shines: make the software pluginable and easy to enhance.

    But I also have agree with other that EA will never release source code.

    V.

  • pmcubedpmcubed Member Posts: 289

    OP.  I applaud your efforts, but your energy might be better spent elsewhere.

    On the off-chance BW/EA people come to this site to read the forums, it is even more unlikely anyone with authority will consider it.  

    The Cartel Market releases keep the game alive with the income the packs generate.  That's pretty much the only thing keeping this game going.

    ALTHOUGH! 

    Look at Dota 2 and the steam workshop that allows for regular people to make and vote for custom things that make it into the game... Valve takes a portion of the profits of user created content.  Everyone benefits!

    I think TOR is just too big of a game and too set in its ways.  I'm sure EA is expecting a check on the credit balance every month and there isn't room in the budget to consider anything more than keeping the CM lifeline thriving.

    It's weird to me that more studio's don't encourage user created content, but big business and IP rights owners probably have some very intelligent profit forecasting that show the ROI to be too small or have too large of ego's to give a crap. :P

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    I think the best solution is to play a different game if this one bothers you so much. As for graphics hitching, I'd just like to point out that on my old PC it was a frequent thing I had to deal with while playing. After buying a new PC late last year, I've not had too much problem in that department in TOR, the only real exception being going to fleet at peak hours, the culling problems are still there. My old PC ( which I gave to my wife, even with a beefier GFX card now still has those issues. In short I'm not sure it's a GFX problem, it seems to be more in the processing department.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    Originally posted by Distopia
    I think the best solution is to play a different game if this one bothers you so much. As for graphics hitching, I'd just like to point out that on my old PC it was a frequent thing I had to deal with while playing. After buying a new PC late last year, I've not had too much problem in that department in TOR, the only real exception being going to fleet at peak hours, the culling problems are still there. My old PC ( which I gave to my wife, even with a beefier GFX card now still has those issues. In short I'm not sure it's a GFX problem, it seems to be more in the processing department.

    I7 cpu, SSDs, 16gb RAM and a Titan video card and still SWTOR can't handle 10 ppl going at it in a instanced pvp battle.

     

    This engine obviously can't deal with many players, maybe one of the reason everything is on rails and instanced from level 1 till the end. They paid for it so why should they give it out for free?

    Looking back at SWTOR, it looks simply like a co-op singleplayer game, if you look at it like that this game is a succes.

     

     

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • apocolusterapocoluster Member UncommonPosts: 1,326
    Lol fans "fix it"   That just made my day=).  

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by Distopia
    I think the best solution is to play a different game if this one bothers you so much. As for graphics hitching, I'd just like to point out that on my old PC it was a frequent thing I had to deal with while playing. After buying a new PC late last year, I've not had too much problem in that department in TOR, the only real exception being going to fleet at peak hours, the culling problems are still there. My old PC ( which I gave to my wife, even with a beefier GFX card now still has those issues. In short I'm not sure it's a GFX problem, it seems to be more in the processing department.

    I7 cpu, SSDs, 16gb RAM and a Titan video card and still SWTOR can't handle 10 ppl going at it in a instanced pvp battle.

     

    This engine obviously can't deal with many players, maybe one of the reason everything is on rails and instanced from level 1 till the end. They paid for it so why should they give it out for free?

    Looking back at SWTOR, it looks simply like a co-op singleplayer game, if you look at it like that this game is a succes.

     

     

    Even on my old PC I didn't have much of a problem in the BG's.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Muke Originally posted by Distopia I think the best solution is to play a different game if this one bothers you so much. As for graphics hitching, I'd just like to point out that on my old PC it was a frequent thing I had to deal with while playing. After buying a new PC late last year, I've not had too much problem in that department in TOR, the only real exception being going to fleet at peak hours, the culling problems are still there. My old PC ( which I gave to my wife, even with a beefier GFX card now still has those issues. In short I'm not sure it's a GFX problem, it seems to be more in the processing department.
    I7 cpu, SSDs, 16gb RAM and a Titan video card and still SWTOR can't handle 10 ppl going at it in a instanced pvp battle.   This engine obviously can't deal with many players, maybe one of the reason everything is on rails and instanced from level 1 till the end. They paid for it so why should they give it out for free? Looking back at SWTOR, it looks simply like a co-op singleplayer game, if you look at it like that this game is a succes.    
    Even on my old PC I didn't have much of a problem in the BG's.


    Same here. SWToR might have a lot of issues, but displaying the number of people who show up on screen at any given time doesn't seem to be one of them.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member CommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    Do you actually have the skills to do any of this yourself or are you just perroting what you've seen other fans say should be done ?

    Someones people have skills you are not privy to.  If an engine revamp is possible, then you will know, if you are also involved.  Short answer = yes (with a team).  .. question to you:  why would you assume anyone who cares lacks skills?

    Why would I assume someone on the internet making a huge job sound easy lacks the skills to actually do it....I don't know. Just a feeling maybe ?

  • GrummusGrummus Member UncommonPosts: 129
    It's way too late to save SWTOR.

    You guys are silly.
  • IstrebiteIIstrebiteI Member Posts: 266

    You cannot fix it, because by allowing people an access to graphics API you would introduce an infinite source of bots and hacks. There's just so many things that you can do that way.

    Like, if I know where to draw what, I know object's coordinates in the game - that's what is basically required to write a bot - a program that makes desicions for you - and you no longer have to recognize visual images, you can just get all the info you need from the game.

    Or, in case of say, CTF kind of scenarios, or any PVP where sneak attacks or maneuver is important, I would make every character be visible from any location (like, add an infinitely high pole that protrudes from the character up and down, so wherever he is, he's visible to me).

    Good idea, but such depth in modding will never be possible in MMO environments, unless we're talking game like Minecraft or Star Citizen, where there are lots of private servers with private rules (that can choose to allow or disallow certain mods).

  • maxima29maxima29 Member Posts: 203
    Originally posted by Keylogger_007

    It's way too late to save SWTOR.

    You guys are silly.

     

    Actually it does not need saving. Those who bash it and don't even play it are the ones who need saving. The game is healthy more new content released today. Those who actually play the game know its doing just fine. Now you are the silly ones.
  • Moxom914Moxom914 Member UncommonPosts: 694


    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by Nevulus Never going to happen so stop wasting your energy and move on.   Albeit a modified version, it is still the Hero Engine and not EA's engine. Furthermore EA does not have their consumer's better interest at hand, only their shareholders.    You can't "just" single out the graphics portion and have players modify that without it affecting the network code or how it throttles assets via sockets. Maybe you have some inside information that I don't, in which case do tell, I'm all ears. If not, then you are just theory-crafting a moot point that will never make it anywhere.   Let's focus on REAL solutions and not make-believe unicorns. And please leave the code talk to real developers with working knowledge.
    The real Trials here would be to convince others that there is no other real solution.  All potential solutions Of this game have not shown many results.   Listen to Obi-Wan and use the force :P

     

    You do have a point with EA not being willing to help their own game much, agree there.  At least if the graphics portion was made available and sanitized, it would eliminate that from being the culprit .. then it would be less about Hero and more about EA (which is probably what EA would fear).



    ok. maybe im just lost. i have no issues with swtors graphics. everything runs just fine. no lags no issues at all. personally i think the game needs a lot of things. but on my personal list, redoing graphics is pretty far down. just sayin
  • IstrebiteIIstrebiteI Member Posts: 266
    Originally posted by maxima29
    Originally posted by Keylogger_007
    It's way too late to save SWTOR. You guys are silly.

     

    Actually it does not need saving. Those who bash it and don't even play it are the ones who need saving. The game is healthy more new content released today. Those who actually play the game know its doing just fine. Now you are the silly ones.

    Tell you the truth, that's a very limited opinion. You cannot deny the fact that the game is doing "okay" (unlike WAR which is about to be closed) but at the same time you cannot deny the fact that the game is inferior to other MMOs in many ways.

    Just take WoW. What is Warcraft? A computer game universe? Compared to Star Wars universe, these two are on completely different levels. I mean, we're comparing a pug to an elephant here - and Star Wars IS the elephant. It's one of the most popular IP's ever!

    Now, seeing this IP get such a medicore game as it does is just.... nonsense! This IP deserves much better MMO made using it. This is not the case of SWTOR being a bad game as it is - this is the case of the game not deserving the license. It's an okay game in itself, but this IP deserves way more. Its like, you expect different levels of proficency and comprehension in maths from a Ph.D and a school junior.

    So, in this sense, people do have right to complain about the game "sucking" and needing to be "saved".

  • maxima29maxima29 Member Posts: 203
    Originally posted by IstrebiteI

    Originally posted by maxima29
    Originally posted by Keylogger_007
    It's way too late to save SWTOR. You guys are silly.

     

    Actually it does not need saving. Those who bash it and don't even play it are the ones who need saving. The game is healthy more new content released today. Those who actually play the game know its doing just fine. Now you are the silly ones.

    Tell you the truth, that's a very limited opinion. You cannot deny the fact that the game is doing "okay" (unlike WAR which is about to be closed) but at the same time you cannot deny the fact that the game is inferior to other MMOs in many ways.

    Just take WoW. What is Warcraft? A computer game universe? Compared to Star Wars universe, these two are on completely different levels. I mean, we're comparing a pug to an elephant here - and Star Wars IS the elephant. It's one of the most popular IP's ever!

    Now, seeing this IP get such a medicore game as it does is just.... nonsense! This IP deserves much better MMO made using it. This is not the case of SWTOR being a bad game as it is - this is the case of the game not deserving the license. It's an okay game in itself, but this IP deserves way more. Its like, you expect different levels of proficency and comprehension in maths from a Ph.D and a school junior.

    So, in this sense, people do have right to complain about the game "sucking" and needing to be "saved".

     

    I agree its not perfect or the greatest game ever. But its far from needing saving. And its also unfair to compare it to the Wow universe we know today. Wow has had ten years to build their game universe.
  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Member Posts: 2,697

    People need to stop suggesting that X game makes their code open source.

     

    Companies spend 10s and even 100s of millions of dollars developing their engines and games. They aren't just going to throw it out there open source and let everyone start taking advantage of it for free.

     

    Including open source work into your engine also makes things a legal nightmare as well.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,828

    Try to make fundamental, low-level changes to the engine of a live game and you'll create so many new bugs you'll be forced to scrap it and revert to the old engine.  Depending on what needs to be changed, you'll definitely be faced with redoing broad swaths of code that currently work, and may (or may not) have to redo a ton of art assets.

    Open source doesn't change that, even if we ignore the business reasons why EA can't and shouldn't go that route.  It's an enormous time investment to figure out what code that someone else wrote is doing before you try to change that.  Try to make changes before you understand what you're doing and you're nearly guaranteed to break things.

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