A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
my 2cents: If the game has crappy gameplay why play it? who really cares about story / the world / and being social if the "Game" doesn't Play well. Might as well watch tv or read a book if you really care for story. and if you care most about social aspects of a game go meet people in real life. Without good game play why would any1 want to spend time in that "game".
Screw leveling games, give me something with "End game" at the beginning of the game.
Originally posted by noturpal its all the same discussion, game play w/o it there is no story, world, or the rest. Its gameplay, then the rest. Now you see why mmos are at a crossraods. They have been copying each others game play instead of innovating.
Copied gameplay really has nothing to do with what elements of a game developers focus on.
If anything, it's the reverse of your implication.
A developer who thinks story/world/social are more important is less likely to invest in fresh gameplay.
A developer who thinks gameplay is more impotant will understand that part of having good gameplay is creating fresh gameplay players haven't experienced before.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The only thing MMOs do better than other games are social and world.
If I want good gameplay, I generally don't go to an MMO (unless it does something that other games can't, like 400 man sieges). Story will always be better in a singleplayer game, because what you do actually impacts the game world forever and there isn't as much filler.
The entire point of MMOs is the other players. If the social is lacking, and if the world is limited and instanced, there's literally no point. It goes in the bin.
I'd like to chime in on Axehilt and Maplestone's discussion as I believe it is relevant to the topic.
To some people, everything is a game, or at least can be. Gameplay, for me, boils down to imagination. It's not the controls or the spells firing or the animations. Exploring can be made a game, by seeing how much of a zone or area you can scout out. Being social can be a game, as you can manipulate people towards certain ends.
The game world (and the story) is largely in my head and in my imagination, often times despite what i see on the screen. I believe the term gameplay should not be confused with game mechanics in every instance. I feel that much of the gameplay I derive from MMORPGs has nothing to do with how the actual game plays.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Kind of a really hard question to answer, because MMO's are a complex conglomerate of layers of game design, unlike most games, which are just one thing or another.
Generally, though, I found that gameplay has considerably reduced importance in MMO's compared to, say, world/social (I believe the two are tightly related so It's hard for me to separate them). Games like SWG or EVE don't have the most engaging gameplay elements, but because their world/social aspect is very well developed, they are amazing MMO's.
I'd definitely put story at the bottom, though. Story is generally not required for an MMO.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
I'd like to chime in on Axehilt and Maplestone's discussion as I believe it is relevant to the topic.
To some people, everything is a game, or at least can be. Gameplay, for me, boils down to imagination. It's not the controls or the spells firing or the animations. Exploring can be made a game, by seeing how much of a zone or area you can scout out. Being social can be a game, as you can manipulate people towards certain ends.
The game world (and the story) is largely in my head and in my imagination, often times despite what i see on the screen. I believe the term gameplay should not be confused with game mechanics in every instance. I feel that much of the gameplay I derive from MMORPGs has nothing to do with how the actual game plays.
You can go out on a purely social outing, like a restaurant, and use your imagination to create gameplay (game rules) to turn the experience into a game. That doesn't mean we call going to a restaurant "a game", because it isn't. Only the gameplay you created in your mind turned it into a game. The restaurant itself is just a restaurant: a social outing with you and your friends.
"Game" as a word means something. It's a complete disservice to the word to imply we can call every activity on earth a game simply because we can use our imagination to create game rules to make it a game. Those game rules are the game, not the activity.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Gameplay and world. Those two are what a game dev provides and if they are done right players will make up the rest.
Story is fine, but unless you are hiring a storytelling GM, your story will end at some point and players attracted by a story will move to other game. Also do not forget it is MMO - single player games are better at stories and there is nothing you can do about it.
Social seams important. After all MMO are about a lot a people interacting together, right? But really, as long as you set up a basic chats and group play logic, you can stop for some time. You see, if you provide good gameplay experience and a proper design of world, people will deal with communication with external software. On the other hand, even best social tools won't keep player with a game that just do not play right.
Gameplay and world. Those two are what a game dev provides and if they are done right players will make up the rest.
That is exactly what I think. The big difference between an MMO and other games is that the players must fundamentally be part of shaping the overall experience in an MMO. Social and story mean different things to different people and have different level of importance to different people, so letting each person and the community shape those rather than trying to define them as a dev means that not only are they likely to be seen more positively by the community, but that the world and gameplay aspects will be better because the devs can focus on them a lot more. Also, I agree with those who separate lore from story; to me, lore is part of the worldbuilding, story is what the player experiences.
Originally posted by noturpal its all the same discussion, game play w/o it there is no story, world, or the rest. Its gameplay, then the rest. Now you see why mmos are at a crossraods. They have been copying each others game play instead of innovating.
Copied gameplay really has nothing to do with what elements of a game developers focus on.
If anything, it's the reverse of your implication.
A developer who thinks story/world/social are more important is less likely to invest in fresh gameplay.
A developer who thinks gameplay is more impotant will understand that part of having good gameplay is creating fresh gameplay players haven't experienced before.
now that i am unbanned let me refresh and destroy.
You premises are flat out wrong. Do you really thing a dev with millions of dollars and a huge team of people behind him, does not think of all. They do, but the problem is that they..how do be nice about this(I have worked for a lot of gvt grants for historic restorations, and how you actually spend money and the way people really think you spend money is lets just say different)
SWTOR is the proof of that, minimal gameplay huge everything else.
what I am saying is everyone is wrong about how the gameplay should go, and the devs who are my age and according to mensa 90% of the people are dumber than me. So devs are just geeks who program my games, and they better stop fucking it up or you won't get my money.
The only thing MMOs do better than other games are social and world.
If I want good gameplay, I generally don't go to an MMO (unless it does something that other games can't, like 400 man sieges). Story will always be better in a singleplayer game, because what you do actually impacts the game world forever and there isn't as much filler.
The entire point of MMOs is the other players. If the social is lacking, and if the world is limited and instanced, there's literally no point. It goes in the bin.
Fine you want things back on track, here.
You really believe mmorpg gameplay is the same as everything else? I have never created spreadsheets for any other game, I guess I could have but they wouldn't have been as in depth.
If you really find MMORPG combat to be the same as everything else. Thats either an accident by the Devs or on purpose.
The only thing MMOs do better than other games are social and world.
If I want good gameplay, I generally don't go to an MMO (unless it does something that other games can't, like 400 man sieges). Story will always be better in a singleplayer game, because what you do actually impacts the game world forever and there isn't as much filler.
The entire point of MMOs is the other players. If the social is lacking, and if the world is limited and instanced, there's literally no point. It goes in the bin.
Fine you want things back on track, here.
Nah .. they have unique IPs too.
I like Star Trek. If i want to play a Star Trek RPG with ship & ground combat, STO is it. So in fact, i would say MMO does Star Trek RPG the best in the world ... even if you play it as a SP game, which i do.
If a game company tries to implement "social" I avoid it because it always comes out feeling forced and limited to their vision of what makes a game social.
The other three choices are intertwined. Since I am an old time RPGer, Story cannot be separated from gameplay and since the world is a big part of the game, its the same with that. One of my biggest gripes with SWG was the random generated worlds and no 3d x/y axis that didn't allow for actual jumping, shooting through hills at targets on the other side.
The only thing MMOs do better than other games are social and world.
If I want good gameplay, I generally don't go to an MMO (unless it does something that other games can't, like 400 man sieges). Story will always be better in a singleplayer game, because what you do actually impacts the game world forever and there isn't as much filler.
The entire point of MMOs is the other players. If the social is lacking, and if the world is limited and instanced, there's literally no point. It goes in the bin.
Fine you want things back on track, here.
Nah .. they have unique IPs too.
I like Star Trek. If i want to play a Star Trek RPG with ship & ground combat, STO is it. So in fact, i would say MMO does Star Trek RPG the best in the world ... even if you play it as a SP game, which i do.
We are talking about the genre as a whole. not about specific titles. What defines a MMO(RPG) what makes it stand out from other games and genre's is that you play it with millions of other they are in your world (not some stupid lobby D3 is NOT an MMO) and you interact with them. Also MMO's in general have a world where u can freely move trough no on rails stuf.
So social and world. Gameplay doesnt define an MMO unless you talk about the holy trinity (or the more advanced form of it with pullers support buffers and CC. Story does also not define an MMO, because SP have in general a better story.
Todays MMO's are focused on gameplay and story. wich does not define and MMO wich is why all those MMO's nowadays have to go to some fremium model to survive because they are not worth paying 15dollars/eruo's a month.
We are talking about the genre as a whole. not about specific titles. What defines a MMO(RPG) what makes it stand out from other games and genre's is that you play it with millions of other they are in your world (not some stupid lobby D3 is NOT an MMO) and you interact with them. Also MMO's in general have a world where u can freely move trough no on rails stuf.
Genre is made up of specific titles. No two titles are exactly the same.
Plus, what i say ... MMORPGs have unique IPs ... is true for multiple titles.
Star Trek, TSW, marvel .... have no competition from recent SP games. Don't tell me you don't know that people will play games just for IPs.
The bottomline is this .. i play these MMORPGs as solo games, because of the IP. Now tell me is there a reason i should stop if that is fun for me?
I can't bring myself to pick just one. Because I like story facilitated by a believable world, that I can enjoy with others, through deep content and system of execution...
And, I just can't think of what must come first. I am sure we have all kicked around ideas to friends about our ideal game. I know when I have it is never an organized conversation. We kind of talk about characters, and places/backdrops, circumstances, weapons, combat situations and all that at once and really back and forth. We sometimes get as far as opening up blender, or our sketch pads and breaking out the colored pencils...Then it devolves to grid paper and normal pencils...and then we make it into a D&D, Shadow Run, Exalted, Were Wolves the Apocalypse or some other campaign *sigh* -_-
We are talking about the genre as a whole. not about specific titles. What defines a MMO(RPG) what makes it stand out from other games and genre's is that you play it with millions of other they are in your world (not some stupid lobby D3 is NOT an MMO) and you interact with them. Also MMO's in general have a world where u can freely move trough no on rails stuf.
Genre is made up of specific titles. No two titles are exactly the same.
Plus, what i say ... MMORPGs have unique IPs ... is true for multiple titles.
Star Trek, TSW, marvel .... have no competition from recent SP games. Don't tell me you don't know that people will play games just for IPs.
The bottomline is this .. i play these MMORPGs as solo games, because of the IP. Now tell me is there a reason i should stop if that is fun for me?
So why don't you reply on that other half of my post or is ï want my fun Q_Q " all that you can reply to it?
MMO's don't have unique IP's i just googled Star trek games do you know how many games have been brought out? a Ton..... Yes there are some people who will play a certain title because of its IP look at WoW that 7mil people it started out with where all warcraft/blizzard fans. But Star trek one of the biggest IP's around. why did it have to go F2P? it could easely rake in more players then the warcraft universe. So people do not specially play games for a certain IP. They play games because they find them good. the IP or features draw them towards it but to keep em playing the game needs to be at a certain level.
and then we come to the same point again why an MMO is diffrent from any other game in a diffrent genre. and for that good sir i point at the other half of my post wich you totaly ignored.
edit: Oh and about WoW's decline before you jump on that boat. People stil Linger because of other people, but the rapid decline its been having is due to the Game not being what we want anymore.
It was a toss up between the World and Gameplay, but I feel the World design and how you want players to interact with that world needs to come first and build around it.
The latest example of this would be EQNext. They built the world with Voxels and in-depth AI. The destructibility and the way that players interact with that is being directly tied to the social interface and the mechanics side of things. Without that specific world design most of the other things would be quite lackluster.
But you obviously need all four of those main components to create something worth creating.
If I had to rank them on a scale (5 being the highest/best; 1 being the lowest):
World: 5
Gameplay: 4
Social: 4
Story: 2
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
MMO's don't have unique IP's i just googled Star trek games do you know how many games have been brought out?
Not recently. I also don't play ancient old games.
Tell me, what is the latest Star Trek RPG, based on the TNG universe, that has both ship combat and ground combat? There is no other than STO. If you can name another one, i will go play that instead.
and then we come to the same point again why an MMO is diffrent from any other game in a diffrent genre. and for that good sir i point at the other half of my post wich you totaly ignored.
To me, they don't. Games are games. I don't care about genre lines. I care if a specific game is fun to me.
MMO's don't have unique IP's i just googled Star trek games do you know how many games have been brought out?
Not recently. I also don't play ancient old games.
Tell me, what is the latest Star Trek RPG, based on the TNG universe, that has both ship combat and ground combat? There is no other than STO. If you can name another one, i will go play that instead.
Il give you that there is no game with both ground and ship combat. But like i said if it truely is about IP then why did Star trek online do so rubbishly? while it has millions of fans around the world.? IP = IP your now talking about features has nothing to do with IP.
and then we come to the same point again why an MMO is diffrent from any other game in a diffrent genre. and for that good sir i point at the other half of my post wich you totaly ignored.
To me, they don't. Games are games. I don't care about genre lines. I care if a specific game is fun to me.
I told you you would use the "but its fun for me Q_Q" comment, your being to predictable and aperantly you cannot find anything clever enough to counter what i said about what defines an MMO. You are you but there are countless of other players wich play MMO's because they differ from the other genre's. And current produced MMO's do not hold to those defenitions wich is why they all suck. If they would be good enough people would be laying down there money each month.
MMO's don't have unique IP's i just googled Star trek games do you know how many games have been brought out?
Not recently. I also don't play ancient old games.
Tell me, what is the latest Star Trek RPG, based on the TNG universe, that has both ship combat and ground combat? There is no other than STO. If you can name another one, i will go play that instead.
Il give you that there is no game with both ground and ship combat. But like i said if it truely is about IP then why did Star trek online do so rubbishly? while it has millions of fans around the world.? IP = IP your now talking about features has nothing to do with IP.
I said TNG universe. That is the JJ abram reboot. You can't drive a galaxy class star ship in that game. Don't you think i would already have check that out?
"rubbish"? Now you are forcing your opinion on others. If it is rubbish to me, why would i be having free fun with it?
Comments
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Screw leveling games, give me something with "End game" at the beginning of the game.
Copied gameplay really has nothing to do with what elements of a game developers focus on.
If anything, it's the reverse of your implication.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Fine you want things back on track, here.
I'd like to chime in on Axehilt and Maplestone's discussion as I believe it is relevant to the topic.
To some people, everything is a game, or at least can be. Gameplay, for me, boils down to imagination. It's not the controls or the spells firing or the animations. Exploring can be made a game, by seeing how much of a zone or area you can scout out. Being social can be a game, as you can manipulate people towards certain ends.
The game world (and the story) is largely in my head and in my imagination, often times despite what i see on the screen. I believe the term gameplay should not be confused with game mechanics in every instance. I feel that much of the gameplay I derive from MMORPGs has nothing to do with how the actual game plays.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Kind of a really hard question to answer, because MMO's are a complex conglomerate of layers of game design, unlike most games, which are just one thing or another.
Generally, though, I found that gameplay has considerably reduced importance in MMO's compared to, say, world/social (I believe the two are tightly related so It's hard for me to separate them). Games like SWG or EVE don't have the most engaging gameplay elements, but because their world/social aspect is very well developed, they are amazing MMO's.
I'd definitely put story at the bottom, though. Story is generally not required for an MMO.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
You can go out on a purely social outing, like a restaurant, and use your imagination to create gameplay (game rules) to turn the experience into a game. That doesn't mean we call going to a restaurant "a game", because it isn't. Only the gameplay you created in your mind turned it into a game. The restaurant itself is just a restaurant: a social outing with you and your friends.
"Game" as a word means something. It's a complete disservice to the word to imply we can call every activity on earth a game simply because we can use our imagination to create game rules to make it a game. Those game rules are the game, not the activity.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Gameplay and world. Those two are what a game dev provides and if they are done right players will make up the rest.
Story is fine, but unless you are hiring a storytelling GM, your story will end at some point and players attracted by a story will move to other game. Also do not forget it is MMO - single player games are better at stories and there is nothing you can do about it.
Social seams important. After all MMO are about a lot a people interacting together, right? But really, as long as you set up a basic chats and group play logic, you can stop for some time. You see, if you provide good gameplay experience and a proper design of world, people will deal with communication with external software. On the other hand, even best social tools won't keep player with a game that just do not play right.
That is exactly what I think. The big difference between an MMO and other games is that the players must fundamentally be part of shaping the overall experience in an MMO. Social and story mean different things to different people and have different level of importance to different people, so letting each person and the community shape those rather than trying to define them as a dev means that not only are they likely to be seen more positively by the community, but that the world and gameplay aspects will be better because the devs can focus on them a lot more. Also, I agree with those who separate lore from story; to me, lore is part of the worldbuilding, story is what the player experiences.
Gameplay of course. If gameplay is not fun, other stuff does not matter to me. Heck, "world" and "social" don't matter to me much anyway.
now that i am unbanned let me refresh and destroy.
You premises are flat out wrong. Do you really thing a dev with millions of dollars and a huge team of people behind him, does not think of all. They do, but the problem is that they..how do be nice about this(I have worked for a lot of gvt grants for historic restorations, and how you actually spend money and the way people really think you spend money is lets just say different)
SWTOR is the proof of that, minimal gameplay huge everything else.
what I am saying is everyone is wrong about how the gameplay should go, and the devs who are my age and according to mensa 90% of the people are dumber than me. So devs are just geeks who program my games, and they better stop fucking it up or you won't get my money.
You really believe mmorpg gameplay is the same as everything else? I have never created spreadsheets for any other game, I guess I could have but they wouldn't have been as in depth.
If you really find MMORPG combat to be the same as everything else. Thats either an accident by the Devs or on purpose.
I guess I know why may games keep sucking.
Nah .. they have unique IPs too.
I like Star Trek. If i want to play a Star Trek RPG with ship & ground combat, STO is it. So in fact, i would say MMO does Star Trek RPG the best in the world ... even if you play it as a SP game, which i do.
If a game company tries to implement "social" I avoid it because it always comes out feeling forced and limited to their vision of what makes a game social.
The other three choices are intertwined. Since I am an old time RPGer, Story cannot be separated from gameplay and since the world is a big part of the game, its the same with that. One of my biggest gripes with SWG was the random generated worlds and no 3d x/y axis that didn't allow for actual jumping, shooting through hills at targets on the other side.
We are talking about the genre as a whole. not about specific titles. What defines a MMO(RPG) what makes it stand out from other games and genre's is that you play it with millions of other they are in your world (not some stupid lobby D3 is NOT an MMO) and you interact with them. Also MMO's in general have a world where u can freely move trough no on rails stuf.
So social and world. Gameplay doesnt define an MMO unless you talk about the holy trinity (or the more advanced form of it with pullers support buffers and CC. Story does also not define an MMO, because SP have in general a better story.
Todays MMO's are focused on gameplay and story. wich does not define and MMO wich is why all those MMO's nowadays have to go to some fremium model to survive because they are not worth paying 15dollars/eruo's a month.
Genre is made up of specific titles. No two titles are exactly the same.
Plus, what i say ... MMORPGs have unique IPs ... is true for multiple titles.
Star Trek, TSW, marvel .... have no competition from recent SP games. Don't tell me you don't know that people will play games just for IPs.
The bottomline is this .. i play these MMORPGs as solo games, because of the IP. Now tell me is there a reason i should stop if that is fun for me?
I can't bring myself to pick just one. Because I like story facilitated by a believable world, that I can enjoy with others, through deep content and system of execution...
And, I just can't think of what must come first. I am sure we have all kicked around ideas to friends about our ideal game. I know when I have it is never an organized conversation. We kind of talk about characters, and places/backdrops, circumstances, weapons, combat situations and all that at once and really back and forth. We sometimes get as far as opening up blender, or our sketch pads and breaking out the colored pencils...Then it devolves to grid paper and normal pencils...and then we make it into a D&D, Shadow Run, Exalted, Were Wolves the Apocalypse or some other campaign *sigh* -_-
So why don't you reply on that other half of my post or is ï want my fun Q_Q " all that you can reply to it?
MMO's don't have unique IP's i just googled Star trek games do you know how many games have been brought out? a Ton..... Yes there are some people who will play a certain title because of its IP look at WoW that 7mil people it started out with where all warcraft/blizzard fans. But Star trek one of the biggest IP's around. why did it have to go F2P? it could easely rake in more players then the warcraft universe. So people do not specially play games for a certain IP. They play games because they find them good. the IP or features draw them towards it but to keep em playing the game needs to be at a certain level.
and then we come to the same point again why an MMO is diffrent from any other game in a diffrent genre. and for that good sir i point at the other half of my post wich you totaly ignored.
edit: Oh and about WoW's decline before you jump on that boat. People stil Linger because of other people, but the rapid decline its been having is due to the Game not being what we want anymore.
Thats a hard one. But I went with the world.
It was a toss up between the World and Gameplay, but I feel the World design and how you want players to interact with that world needs to come first and build around it.
The latest example of this would be EQNext. They built the world with Voxels and in-depth AI. The destructibility and the way that players interact with that is being directly tied to the social interface and the mechanics side of things. Without that specific world design most of the other things would be quite lackluster.
But you obviously need all four of those main components to create something worth creating.
If I had to rank them on a scale (5 being the highest/best; 1 being the lowest):
World: 5
Gameplay: 4
Social: 4
Story: 2
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Not recently. I also don't play ancient old games.
Tell me, what is the latest Star Trek RPG, based on the TNG universe, that has both ship combat and ground combat? There is no other than STO. If you can name another one, i will go play that instead.
To me, they don't. Games are games. I don't care about genre lines. I care if a specific game is fun to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_(2013_video_game)
2013 not recent enough for you?
Il give you that there is no game with both ground and ship combat. But like i said if it truely is about IP then why did Star trek online do so rubbishly? while it has millions of fans around the world.? IP = IP your now talking about features has nothing to do with IP.
I told you you would use the "but its fun for me Q_Q" comment, your being to predictable and aperantly you cannot find anything clever enough to counter what i said about what defines an MMO. You are you but there are countless of other players wich play MMO's because they differ from the other genre's. And current produced MMO's do not hold to those defenitions wich is why they all suck. If they would be good enough people would be laying down there money each month.
I said TNG universe. That is the JJ abram reboot. You can't drive a galaxy class star ship in that game. Don't you think i would already have check that out?
"rubbish"? Now you are forcing your opinion on others. If it is rubbish to me, why would i be having free fun with it?
That is right. I don't play games for community nor to social.