Is it possible to make an MMO game not based on progression? Yes, as others have pointed out, the MMOFPS categories have many entries where there is no progression. So, since this is a site/forum focused on MMORPGs, let's ignore these other genres and focus the question on role playing games.
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Can the same apply to a role playing game? I don't know. Progression is a core element of the RP genre; gaining levels, collecting gear and learning new spells in order to be able to fight (and maybe defeat) stronger and stronger opponents. If you tried to remove Progression, players would need something to replace this carrot-on-a-stick. Progression is subtly, but powerfully addictive. It keeps players coming back, and ultimately, keeps the revenue flowing to companies.
Making a Progression-less RP game would probably need a revolutionary concept, something completely distinct from the D&D mold. It would need a similar psychological lure that would keep player willing to part with their money to play. It would need to eschew levels of any nature -- character levels, spell levels, skill levels, gear levels, or any kind of hidden system of ranking. I think it would need a completely unique way to represent the human body, healing and combat, also core components of RP games, because the traditional hit point system has been used as one of the hidden leveling systems. Likewise, the mana pools also need revision.
Characters in an RP game without Progression should be able to participate in any combat activities. One day, they might find themselves struggling to destroy a rat infestation in the town's granary, the next, they participate in slaying a dragon. Every opponent would bring a different degree of difficulty, but not at an individual level. A single player might be able to deal with the rats, but it might take a collaboration of dozens of people to defeat the dragon. A character summons a magical light to find something in the dark or helps summon a demon as part of a coven.
This actually diverges slightly from another of the foundations of RP games, the fantasy story. Stories frequently have single individuals tackling the problems that should realistically require dozens. A single hero stands up to the dragon, or confronts the giant or steals the roc's egg. A game where a character needs to be part of a team to overcome specific obstacles steps neatly away from the 'heroic figure' concept.
I had thought that a suitable alternative to Progression might be Achievement, but I'm not sure it hold the same lure. There's almost 40 years of Progression-centric tradition to overcome. While I like the Achievement systems in games like EQ1 or LotRO (Deeds), prior implementations have strictly been subordinate to the other Progression based systems. A new game would also need to break this association.
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Could this be done? Almost certainly, given the right initial idea. Would it be easy? No.
Would it be interesting? That could be a huge problem. A Progression-less RP game might become too binary, everything either IS or ISNOT. It could easily remove the various levels of grey that allow players to compare their persona with another player's and be able to say 'I am stronger. I am faster. I am better'. It could easily become a matter of the random number generator, and player decision would mean little or nothing, it could become a simple game of chance. It would require a lot of work to develop such a system and keep it interesting.
Would it sell? Unknown. Such a game would require a huge marketing effort. The game might not even appeal to the traditional RP crowd.
This is a very well written post, but here's the problem. I'm not talking about an rpg. I would be posting this on mmo.com if there were such a site. This site is the closet thing to having a community that is willing to discuss mmos in general that exists. Would this be more appropriate on the mmofps site instead? No. I'm not talking about a shooter game, either, and it is more appropriate here because the type of game I am talking about more closely resembles an rpg than it does an fps.
Originally posted by Burdoc101 Could you list examples of MMOs without progression @OP?
What type of progression? Gear? Skills though.
The argument usually revolves around what gear does what in a form of carrot chasing.
Personally, I'm fine with building/crafting in itself. Don't need 24/7 paranoia to feel excited. Liked that MUD game and having to temper a weapon for 3hrs and pray it has the good stats. As long as it doesn't feel grindy, and there's some reward for time and effort, it's worthwhile. Why do all these games have to have 1000001 updates every 90 days so people can't be bored?
Originally posted by Burdoc101 Could you list examples of MMOs without progression @OP?
...no, lol... that's the point of this discussion. People have the idea that it's because it won't work. That's backwards logic, seeing a causal relationship where there is none. There aren't any (popular) mmos without progression because no company has put forth a serious effort into making one. I'm sure there probably are a few, but they likely have something fundamentally so wrong with them that is causing them to not be popular that there's no point in bringing them into this discussion.
There are some that come really close to not having progression, like Minecraft. There is progression because the different types of gear and weapons have different combat stats, and can be enchanted with enchantments that increase those combat stats even more, however it doesn't take very long at all to get the best gear possible on a server. Once you are pretty experienced with the game, you can do it in a few hours without resorting to shady methods like using an xray mod. And some people also say it is not an mmo, just a multiplayer online game because the average server cannot hold an amount of players that could be considered massive. On the other hand, the playerbase as a whole is certainly massive, as well as the number of servers, and the diversity of those servers.
Minecraft doesn't even have dungeons or quests. The main appeal is that you can pretty much make whatever the heck you want, and the pvp is basically as even playing field as it gets, to the point where a skilled, cunning player with no armor actually can take down a player who's wearing the best gear they can get, unless he has some God Apples... So if a game that almost has no progression can become that popular, even without everything else typically in an mmo (and by the way, people actually make such things in Minecraft) then imagine how popular a game with good graphics that actually does have all that would be.
Yes, minecraft is a sandbox, but this discussion is not about sandbox vs themepark. In my experience even sandboxes have progression, they just label it as skill points instead of levels. This discussion is about not having progression, as in increased combat stats.
Haha, and I understand this is a discussion. I am not disagreeing that this isn't possible. And was just pointing out it sounded like a sandbox game from what you were describing (not that you actually said sandbox or anything like it). Just was trying to understand your thoughts more clearly.
I freaking love minecraft. Great game, people create games within that game. Creating communities within the community. There is nothing I can think of like it. However, Its hard to avoid progression no matter how you look at the MMO genre.
Planetside 2 is a MMOFPS, PVP only, group oriented, skill based game. It still has progression with upgrading weapons and classes to make them better equipped and capable. You also can progress by capturing territories for your faction. FTW.
A skill based, (limited) horizontal progression system is what your asking for (correct me if I'm wrong). I think that is certainly possible, but I do not think that the game cannot have entirely no progression, because there will be some variant of it. From better gear, to kill the next big bad creature and collecting gold.
Its hard for me to think of a game without one. Games usually have goals of some kind. Even arbitrary ones can be found in games with no ending.
Minecraft is a great example. Exploration, survival, building. You can perfectly satisfy your character with a 3x3x3 dirt house (hollowed in the middle of course), and enough wheat to last you forever. But we humans create our own goals for the game. Like building a nice home instead of our hobbit hole. Having enough wheat to breed cows so I can have steak with my bread. Even killing the final boss (enderdragon) does not end the game. So you are left to your world to do what you will.
So it leaves me to what I said earlier you are looking for a game that is skill based with a (limited) horizontal progression. And possibly free will. :-)
Upon reflection, I'm wondering if the OP considers Second Life applicable to the sort of thing he or she is talking about. I had nearly forgotten that game existed at all, but it was fairly popular.
This is a very well written post, but here's the problem. I'm not talking about an rpg. I would be posting this on mmo.com if there were such a site. This site is the closet thing to having a community that is willing to discuss mmos in general that exists. Would this be more appropriate on the mmofps site instead? No. I'm not talking about a shooter game, either, and it is more appropriate here because the type of game I am talking about more closely resembles an rpg than it does an fps.
Okay, if you're not talking about a FPS, nor an RP game. But how does the game you're talking about "more closely resembles an rpg than it does an fps"? Progression is so closely associated with the RP genre by the community and the manufacturers that it becomes difficult to discuss a progression-free RP game. It's almost self-contradictory.
Generally, when a FPS adds some form of persistent progression, the game companies acknowledge that their game contains 'RP elements'. The basic Doom game had no progression, and pretty much popularized the FPS genre. Newer titles have advanced the genre to 'massive multi-player' status when breaking the 8, 16, 32 and 64 player barriers. If these games also contain RP elements that allow progression, are they considered MMORPGs? No. They are MMOFPS.
Developers of FPS games recognize the lure of progression, and incorporate it into their games because it generates revenue.
It's still possible to find FPS games without any form of progression, but you might have to look to the smaller (user-capacity) games. One of the best gaming experiences I've had in the past 3 years was a Doom LAN party with 14 players. Lots of yelling and screaming, but also good-old-fashioned taunting and laughing. Hard to beat. Absolutely zero progression. If you want the BFG, you'd better know where it is on the map, and win the race to find it.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Originally posted by Jostle Upon reflection, I'm wondering if the OP considers Second Life applicable to the sort of thing he or she is talking about. I had nearly forgotten that game existed at all, but it was fairly popular.
No, lol. I'm glad you brought that up, though. No combat progression does not mean no purpose. No combat progression also does not mean no pre-made activities.
Let's talk more about Minecraft for a minute here. There are no pre-made activities in that game, but people have made servers with their own minigames, some of which are simple, like capture the flag and hide and go seek, others of which are entirely made up, like spleef. This is all fine and dandy, and good proof that sandboxes can work; however, it's totally irrelevant.
Now let's talk about Second Life. There is no purpose to that game. Some people use it for the purpose of virtual sex. That's about as far as my knowlege goes.
Ok, now let's list an example of a popular offline multiplayer game with no combat progression- Super Smash Brothers. Now, try to imagine for a moment (I know it's hard) if Super Smash Brothers had that combat, but in a persistent, 3D world rather than a match based 2D one, and you could also team up to take on dungeons rather than just pvp, and also throw in some quests and all the other stuff I talked about already. Would there be pre-made activities? Yes, pvp, dungeons, etc. Would there be a purpose? This is where I feel most people are getting caught up. They have the idea that progression is the purpose of MMO's. I'm saying that the activities themselves are the purpose of the game. Do people look at Super Smash Brothers and ask, "What's the purpose of this game? You don't even get more powerful from playing it more." No they do not.
Originally posted by Jostle Upon reflection, I'm wondering if the OP considers Second Life applicable to the sort of thing he or she is talking about. I had nearly forgotten that game existed at all, but it was fairly popular.
No, lol. I'm glad you brought that up, though. No combat progression does not mean no purpose. No combat progression also does not mean no pre-made activities.
Let's talk more about Minecraft for a minute here. There are no pre-made activities in that game, but people have made servers with their own minigames, some of which are simple, like capture the flag and hide and go seek, others of which are entirely made up, like spleef. This is all fine and dandy, and good proof that sandboxes can work; however, it's totally irrelevant.
Now let's talk about Second Life. There is no purpose to that game. Some people use it for the purpose of virtual sex. That's about as far as my knowlege goes.
Ok, now let's list an example of a popular offline multiplayer game with no combat progression- Super Smash Brothers. Now, try to imagine for a moment (I know it's hard) if Super Smash Brothers had that combat, but in a persistent, 3D world rather than a match based 2D one, and you could also team up to take on dungeons rather than just pvp, and also throw in some quests and all the other stuff I talked about already. Would there be pre-made activities? Yes, pvp, dungeons, etc. Would there be a purpose? This is where I feel most people are getting caught up. They have the idea that progression is the purpose of MMORPG's. I'm saying that the activities themselves are the purpose of the game. Do people look at Super Smash Brothers and ask, "What's the purpose of this game? You don't even get more powerful from playing it more." No they do not.
I've never heard of this "super smash brothers". but im guessing it's not an rpg.
I'm trying to get the point across that the activities that you find in MMORPGs are the TRUE drive, the TRUE reason why players keep playing. Even though progression is supposed to be the reason, players see through it and know that it is an illusion. They keep playing because they like the activities, not because they feel they are getting more and more powerful. They don't get bored because new content is added. However, it's not because the level cap is raised, allowing them to become even more powerful; it's because there are new dungeons to explore, new quests to complete, new bosses to kill, etc. They would be just as happy with that new content, if not more, if the whole leveling up and gearing up process was completely removed. They wouldn't rush through the new quests, not caring about them in the least. They would only do them if they wanted to. They would not be worried about being prepared to down a raid perfectly the first time they enter, because it would not matter. They aren't going in there because they need the new gear to be good enough, they are going in there because they like it and it's fun.
Of course, this is not talking about every player. Yes, there are people who love progression, and the only reason they play is to be ranked highly on their server gear-wise. What I am saying is that there are enough players who aren't that way for an MMO to be successful without progression.
This means that an MMO can have RPG activities without being an RPG.
And if you are not convinced that the activities are enough of a purpose to keep players coming back, it's because you are not remembering that I am also including player housing as one of those activities. You can no longer make such claims as "player housing can't work" or "nobody cares about player housing" because Minecraft is proof that both of those clams are false.
OP I am not sure who you are trying to convince. Activities have progression. No matter what it is, cooking, cleaning, building a house, raiding a boss. Even mini-games, like Spleef, in minecraft have progression. Even the most basic activity of breathing has progression. What are you seeking for MMOs? To be open world, throw the players in the content and tell them to do whatever they want? I have no issue against that and there are successful games just like that, but you need to re-think your idea about what exactly it is you want to discuss.
Originally posted by Burdoc101 OP I am not sure who you are trying to convince. Activities have progression. No matter what it is, cooking, cleaning, building a house, raiding a boss. Even mini-games, like Spleef, in minecraft have progression. Even the most basic activity of breathing has progression. What are you seeking for MMOs? To be open world, throw the players in the content and tell them to do whatever they want? I have no issue against that and there are successful games just like that, but you need to re-think your idea about what exactly it is you want to discuss.
I have already stated this numerous times. I'm referring to combat progression- getting more powerful at combat. You don't get more powerful at combat by playing spleef, you troll. And I shouldn't have to define a term that is used extensively on this site. That definition has already been established; I am using the term with the normal meaning.
Every game has activities in them. I think there is no illusion about that. We do things in our spare time like: play games, play sports, workout, read books, listen to music, because those are activities we enjoy and are interested in. Are you saying MMOs force activities upon players that don't have to be? Or are you forcing the idea that all MMOs should be the way you want to play them? You sound like you enjoy freedom in your games; to do whatever you want, and approach it by any means. Someone else however would just want to play just a linear ordered game. I don't think either system is broken. I would play either game if it was good. It doesn't make one choice superior to the other even in the MMO world. Its preference.
Originally posted by Burdoc101 OP I am not sure who you are trying to convince. Activities have progression. No matter what it is, cooking, cleaning, building a house, raiding a boss. Even mini-games, like Spleef, in minecraft have progression. Even the most basic activity of breathing has progression. What are you seeking for MMOs? To be open world, throw the players in the content and tell them to do whatever they want? I have no issue against that and there are successful games just like that, but you need to re-think your idea about what exactly it is you want to discuss.
I have already stated this numerous times. I'm referring to combat progression- getting more powerful at combat. You don't get more powerful at combat by playing spleef, you troll. And I shouldn't have to define a term that is used extensively on this site. That definition has already been established; I am using the term with the normal meaning.
So lets discuss combat then. Combat is an activity, its progression is to kill/defeat the opposing side. How do you change that?
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Your discussion to start with was about every aspect of a game not just combat.
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In truth I have no idea what you are trying to argue or discuss. I am not sure what point you are trying to make.
Originally posted by Burdoc101 OP I am not sure who you are trying to convince. Activities have progression. No matter what it is, cooking, cleaning, building a house, raiding a boss. Even mini-games, like Spleef, in minecraft have progression. Even the most basic activity of breathing has progression. What are you seeking for MMOs? To be open world, throw the players in the content and tell them to do whatever they want? I have no issue against that and there are successful games just like that, but you need to re-think your idea about what exactly it is you want to discuss.
I have already stated this numerous times. I'm referring to combat progression- getting more powerful at combat. You don't get more powerful at combat by playing spleef, you troll. And I shouldn't have to define a term that is used extensively on this site. That definition has already been established; I am using the term with the normal meaning.
So lets discuss combat then. Combat is an activity, its progression is to kill/defeat the opposing side. How do you change that?
[Edit]
Your discussion to start with was about every aspect of a game not just combat.
Are you kidding me right now? I reported you for trolling, dude. I very specifically stated that progression is a term that is used extensively on this site to refer to an increase in combat effectiveness. For example, killing one rat giving you 5xp points, which raises you to level 2, which adds one point of strength to your character, which makes your mele hits do one more point of damage. Or, for example, hitting one rat with your fists, which adds 5 skill points to your unarmed skill, which ends up making you do one more point of damage when using your unarmed skill. Or, for example, using the ability rat smash I on a rat, to kill it, which gives you 5 ability points, which you can spend to buy the new ability, rat smash II, which does one more point of damage when used on rats than rat smash I does. Do you get it now?
Originally posted by Burdoc101 OP I am not sure who you are trying to convince. Activities have progression. No matter what it is, cooking, cleaning, building a house, raiding a boss. Even mini-games, like Spleef, in minecraft have progression. Even the most basic activity of breathing has progression. What are you seeking for MMOs? To be open world, throw the players in the content and tell them to do whatever they want? I have no issue against that and there are successful games just like that, but you need to re-think your idea about what exactly it is you want to discuss.
I have already stated this numerous times. I'm referring to combat progression- getting more powerful at combat. You don't get more powerful at combat by playing spleef, you troll. And I shouldn't have to define a term that is used extensively on this site. That definition has already been established; I am using the term with the normal meaning.
So lets discuss combat then. Combat is an activity, its progression is to kill/defeat the opposing side. How do you change that?
[Edit]
Your discussion to start with was about every aspect of a game not just combat.
Are you kidding me right now? I reported you for trolling, dude. I very specifically stated that progression is a term that is used extensively on this site to refer to an increase in combat effectiveness. For example, killing one rat giving you 5xp points, which raises you to level 2, which adds one point of strength to your character, which makes your mele hits do one more point of damage. Or, for example, hitting one rat with your fists, which adds 5 skill points to your unarmed skill, which ends up making you do one more point of damage when using your unarmed skill. Or, for example, using the ability rat smash I on a rat, to kill it, which gives you 5 ability points, which you can spend to buy the new ability, rat smash II, which does one more point of damage when used on rats than rat smash I does. Do you get it now?
So you want to remove the stat changes from MMOs and just make it solely based on the players ability to dodge manually and attack the creature manually?
Originally posted by Tezcat What you've described is Ultima Online. It was (and still is) an awesome game. Lots of us really enjoyed playing UO before mmo's became mainstream and bought the instant gratification crowd along.
Pretty positive that UO had progression, even though I've heard you can max out characters pretty fast.
Puzzle Pirates gets a little closer since the only vertical progression in the entire game is going from the default weapon to any other weapon (and I'm not even sure that actually matters against the AI; certainly it's an incredibly tiny upgrade if it's an upgrade at all.)
Planetside 1 is extremely close too, as my Day 1 newbie characters were able to (on multiple occasions) face off against maxed out players an win fights. (They weren't just max level, but also some of the best players in the game.) Progression was nearly entirely lateral (you became more flexible, not more powerful.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Re-reading your original post I see your first sentence laid out your definition of progression and set your topic up for combat progression. I will admit I am wrong from my previous posts and was confused, because of that.
An MMO that has a non-progressive combat system is very possible. If the skills, the abilities, the gear and weapons never changed from the minute you created a character you could still have fun within that game. RPG/FPS/other type of mmo, it could work.
Originally posted by Burdoc101 OP I am not sure who you are trying to convince. Activities have progression. No matter what it is, cooking, cleaning, building a house, raiding a boss. Even mini-games, like Spleef, in minecraft have progression. Even the most basic activity of breathing has progression. What are you seeking for MMOs? To be open world, throw the players in the content and tell them to do whatever they want? I have no issue against that and there are successful games just like that, but you need to re-think your idea about what exactly it is you want to discuss.
I have already stated this numerous times. I'm referring to combat progression- getting more powerful at combat. You don't get more powerful at combat by playing spleef, you troll. And I shouldn't have to define a term that is used extensively on this site. That definition has already been established; I am using the term with the normal meaning.
So lets discuss combat then. Combat is an activity, its progression is to kill/defeat the opposing side. How do you change that?
[Edit]
Your discussion to start with was about every aspect of a game not just combat.
Are you kidding me right now? I reported you for trolling, dude. I very specifically stated that progression is a term that is used extensively on this site to refer to an increase in combat effectiveness. For example, killing one rat giving you 5xp points, which raises you to level 2, which adds one point of strength to your character, which makes your mele hits do one more point of damage. Or, for example, hitting one rat with your fists, which adds 5 skill points to your unarmed skill, which ends up making you do one more point of damage when using your unarmed skill. Or, for example, using the ability rat smash I on a rat, to kill it, which gives you 5 ability points, which you can spend to buy the new ability, rat smash II, which does one more point of damage when used on rats than rat smash I does. Do you get it now?
So you want to remove the stat changes from MMOs and just make it solely based on the players ability to dodge manually and attack the creature manually?
You are getting close, but you are still adding in your own things that I am not saying.
Yes, nothing that tips the odds of combat one way or the other, that is a permanent increase to your character.
No, this has nothing to do with making combat based more on dodging manually or attacking manually.
Let's give an example of what this can look like. We have a super rat boss, a tank, a healer and 3 dps. The super rat boss uses bite on the tank, the tank takes 10 damage. His health is now at 90. The healer uses the ability heal, and restores 10 health to the tank. One dps uses fireball, and it deals 10 damage to the super rat boss. His health is now at 90. Another dps punches it, dealing another 10 damage, and another shoots an arrow at it dealing another 10 damage. This is not turn based by the way, it's all happening at the same time.
Now, do you see any difference, any difference at all between that description so far, and any other mmorpg combat on a fundamental level, and ignoring the oversimplification? No? Good, lets continue.
The super rat boss dies. His corpse falls to the floor, where it is no longer obstructing the path behind him, where the adventurers find a pile of gold. They split it amoungst themselves, and leave the dungeon.
Notice the difference? What wasn't there? No xp gain, no stat increases, no ability points earned to use toward buying more abilities. Does that effect anything at all?
So you want to remove the stat changes from MMOs and just make it solely based on the players ability to dodge manually and attack the creature manually?
That seems to be the point OP is trying to make. Keep all the activities you can do in an MMO(RPG), but remove the character progression as the motivating factor to do them.
Originally posted by Burdoc101 OP I am not sure who you are trying to convince. Activities have progression. No matter what it is, cooking, cleaning, building a house, raiding a boss. Even mini-games, like Spleef, in minecraft have progression. Even the most basic activity of breathing has progression. What are you seeking for MMOs? To be open world, throw the players in the content and tell them to do whatever they want? I have no issue against that and there are successful games just like that, but you need to re-think your idea about what exactly it is you want to discuss.
I have already stated this numerous times. I'm referring to combat progression- getting more powerful at combat. You don't get more powerful at combat by playing spleef, you troll. And I shouldn't have to define a term that is used extensively on this site. That definition has already been established; I am using the term with the normal meaning.
So lets discuss combat then. Combat is an activity, its progression is to kill/defeat the opposing side. How do you change that?
[Edit]
Your discussion to start with was about every aspect of a game not just combat.
Are you kidding me right now? I reported you for trolling, dude. I very specifically stated that progression is a term that is used extensively on this site to refer to an increase in combat effectiveness. For example, killing one rat giving you 5xp points, which raises you to level 2, which adds one point of strength to your character, which makes your mele hits do one more point of damage. Or, for example, hitting one rat with your fists, which adds 5 skill points to your unarmed skill, which ends up making you do one more point of damage when using your unarmed skill. Or, for example, using the ability rat smash I on a rat, to kill it, which gives you 5 ability points, which you can spend to buy the new ability, rat smash II, which does one more point of damage when used on rats than rat smash I does. Do you get it now?
So you want to remove the stat changes from MMOs and just make it solely based on the players ability to dodge manually and attack the creature manually?
You are getting close, but you are still adding in your own things that I am not saying.
Yes, nothing that tips the odds of combat one way or the other, that is a permanent increase to your character.
No, this has nothing to do with making combat based more on dodging manually or attacking manually.
Let's give an example of what this can look like. We have a super rat boss, a tank, a healer and 3 dps. The super rat boss uses bite on the tank, the tank takes 10 damage. His health is now at 90. The healer uses the ability heal, and restores 10 health to the tank. One dps uses fireball, and it deals 10 damage to the super rat boss. His health is now at 90. Another dps punches it, dealing another 10 damage, and another shoots an arrow at it dealing another 10 damage. This is not turn based by the way, it's all happening at the same time.
Now, do you see any difference, any difference at all between that description so far, and any other mmorpg combat on a fundamental level, and ignoring the oversimplification? No? Good, lets continue.
The super rat boss dies. His corpse falls to the floor, where it is no longer obstructing the path behind him, where the adventurers find a pile of gold. They split it amoungst themselves, and leave the dungeon.
Notice the difference? What wasn't there? No xp gain, no stat increases, no ability points earned to use toward buying more abilities. Does that effect anything at all?
This could cause more tactical game play between players and require a much higher skill based to be desired by groups. However, the challenge would have to progress.
This could cause more tactical game play between players and require a much higher skill based to be desired by groups. However, the challenge would have to progress.
Meaning you would need easier enemies to fight at the beginning of your game, and finding ones with increasing difficulty later on? Absolutely.
Doesn't need continually increasing player stats to do that. In fact, should be easier to do without.
This could cause more tactical game play between players and require a much higher skill based to be desired by groups. However, the challenge would have to progress.
First of all, that actually doesn't take place in progression based games, because your character's strength increases at the same rate that the level of difficulty of the content you are trying to do increases. However, it could be included in a game without progression, very easily. There could be regions with monsters and dungeons with bosses that have less forgiving AI than you find in the starter areas.
Comments
This is a very well written post, but here's the problem. I'm not talking about an rpg. I would be posting this on mmo.com if there were such a site. This site is the closet thing to having a community that is willing to discuss mmos in general that exists. Would this be more appropriate on the mmofps site instead? No. I'm not talking about a shooter game, either, and it is more appropriate here because the type of game I am talking about more closely resembles an rpg than it does an fps.
<.<
What type of progression? Gear? Skills though.
The argument usually revolves around what gear does what in a form of carrot chasing.
Personally, I'm fine with building/crafting in itself. Don't need 24/7 paranoia to feel excited. Liked that MUD game and having to temper a weapon for 3hrs and pray it has the good stats. As long as it doesn't feel grindy, and there's some reward for time and effort, it's worthwhile. Why do all these games have to have 1000001 updates every 90 days so people can't be bored?
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Haha, and I understand this is a discussion. I am not disagreeing that this isn't possible. And was just pointing out it sounded like a sandbox game from what you were describing (not that you actually said sandbox or anything like it). Just was trying to understand your thoughts more clearly.
I freaking love minecraft. Great game, people create games within that game. Creating communities within the community. There is nothing I can think of like it. However, Its hard to avoid progression no matter how you look at the MMO genre.
Planetside 2 is a MMOFPS, PVP only, group oriented, skill based game. It still has progression with upgrading weapons and classes to make them better equipped and capable. You also can progress by capturing territories for your faction. FTW.
A skill based, (limited) horizontal progression system is what your asking for (correct me if I'm wrong). I think that is certainly possible, but I do not think that the game cannot have entirely no progression, because there will be some variant of it. From better gear, to kill the next big bad creature and collecting gold.
Its hard for me to think of a game without one. Games usually have goals of some kind. Even arbitrary ones can be found in games with no ending.
Minecraft is a great example. Exploration, survival, building. You can perfectly satisfy your character with a 3x3x3 dirt house (hollowed in the middle of course), and enough wheat to last you forever. But we humans create our own goals for the game. Like building a nice home instead of our hobbit hole. Having enough wheat to breed cows so I can have steak with my bread. Even killing the final boss (enderdragon) does not end the game. So you are left to your world to do what you will.
So it leaves me to what I said earlier you are looking for a game that is skill based with a (limited) horizontal progression. And possibly free will. :-)
Okay, if you're not talking about a FPS, nor an RP game. But how does the game you're talking about "more closely resembles an rpg than it does an fps"? Progression is so closely associated with the RP genre by the community and the manufacturers that it becomes difficult to discuss a progression-free RP game. It's almost self-contradictory.
Generally, when a FPS adds some form of persistent progression, the game companies acknowledge that their game contains 'RP elements'. The basic Doom game had no progression, and pretty much popularized the FPS genre. Newer titles have advanced the genre to 'massive multi-player' status when breaking the 8, 16, 32 and 64 player barriers. If these games also contain RP elements that allow progression, are they considered MMORPGs? No. They are MMOFPS.
Developers of FPS games recognize the lure of progression, and incorporate it into their games because it generates revenue.
It's still possible to find FPS games without any form of progression, but you might have to look to the smaller (user-capacity) games. One of the best gaming experiences I've had in the past 3 years was a Doom LAN party with 14 players. Lots of yelling and screaming, but also good-old-fashioned taunting and laughing. Hard to beat. Absolutely zero progression. If you want the BFG, you'd better know where it is on the map, and win the race to find it.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
No, lol. I'm glad you brought that up, though. No combat progression does not mean no purpose. No combat progression also does not mean no pre-made activities.
Let's talk more about Minecraft for a minute here. There are no pre-made activities in that game, but people have made servers with their own minigames, some of which are simple, like capture the flag and hide and go seek, others of which are entirely made up, like spleef. This is all fine and dandy, and good proof that sandboxes can work; however, it's totally irrelevant.
Now let's talk about Second Life. There is no purpose to that game. Some people use it for the purpose of virtual sex. That's about as far as my knowlege goes.
Ok, now let's list an example of a popular offline multiplayer game with no combat progression- Super Smash Brothers. Now, try to imagine for a moment (I know it's hard) if Super Smash Brothers had that combat, but in a persistent, 3D world rather than a match based 2D one, and you could also team up to take on dungeons rather than just pvp, and also throw in some quests and all the other stuff I talked about already. Would there be pre-made activities? Yes, pvp, dungeons, etc. Would there be a purpose? This is where I feel most people are getting caught up. They have the idea that progression is the purpose of MMO's. I'm saying that the activities themselves are the purpose of the game. Do people look at Super Smash Brothers and ask, "What's the purpose of this game? You don't even get more powerful from playing it more." No they do not.
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I've never heard of this "super smash brothers". but im guessing it's not an rpg.
For the last time, I am not proposing an RPG. There is no place on the interwebs to discuss MMO's themselves. But there is this site.
Oh, I see why you said that. I typed MMORPG instead of MMO, by mistake. I corrected it.
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I'm trying to get the point across that the activities that you find in MMORPGs are the TRUE drive, the TRUE reason why players keep playing. Even though progression is supposed to be the reason, players see through it and know that it is an illusion. They keep playing because they like the activities, not because they feel they are getting more and more powerful. They don't get bored because new content is added. However, it's not because the level cap is raised, allowing them to become even more powerful; it's because there are new dungeons to explore, new quests to complete, new bosses to kill, etc. They would be just as happy with that new content, if not more, if the whole leveling up and gearing up process was completely removed. They wouldn't rush through the new quests, not caring about them in the least. They would only do them if they wanted to. They would not be worried about being prepared to down a raid perfectly the first time they enter, because it would not matter. They aren't going in there because they need the new gear to be good enough, they are going in there because they like it and it's fun.
Of course, this is not talking about every player. Yes, there are people who love progression, and the only reason they play is to be ranked highly on their server gear-wise. What I am saying is that there are enough players who aren't that way for an MMO to be successful without progression.
This means that an MMO can have RPG activities without being an RPG.
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I have already stated this numerous times. I'm referring to combat progression- getting more powerful at combat. You don't get more powerful at combat by playing spleef, you troll. And I shouldn't have to define a term that is used extensively on this site. That definition has already been established; I am using the term with the normal meaning.
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So lets discuss combat then. Combat is an activity, its progression is to kill/defeat the opposing side. How do you change that?
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Your discussion to start with was about every aspect of a game not just combat.
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In truth I have no idea what you are trying to argue or discuss. I am not sure what point you are trying to make.
Are you kidding me right now? I reported you for trolling, dude. I very specifically stated that progression is a term that is used extensively on this site to refer to an increase in combat effectiveness. For example, killing one rat giving you 5xp points, which raises you to level 2, which adds one point of strength to your character, which makes your mele hits do one more point of damage. Or, for example, hitting one rat with your fists, which adds 5 skill points to your unarmed skill, which ends up making you do one more point of damage when using your unarmed skill. Or, for example, using the ability rat smash I on a rat, to kill it, which gives you 5 ability points, which you can spend to buy the new ability, rat smash II, which does one more point of damage when used on rats than rat smash I does. Do you get it now?
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So you want to remove the stat changes from MMOs and just make it solely based on the players ability to dodge manually and attack the creature manually?
Pretty positive that UO had progression, even though I've heard you can max out characters pretty fast.
Puzzle Pirates gets a little closer since the only vertical progression in the entire game is going from the default weapon to any other weapon (and I'm not even sure that actually matters against the AI; certainly it's an incredibly tiny upgrade if it's an upgrade at all.)
Planetside 1 is extremely close too, as my Day 1 newbie characters were able to (on multiple occasions) face off against maxed out players an win fights. (They weren't just max level, but also some of the best players in the game.) Progression was nearly entirely lateral (you became more flexible, not more powerful.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You are getting close, but you are still adding in your own things that I am not saying.
Yes, nothing that tips the odds of combat one way or the other, that is a permanent increase to your character.
No, this has nothing to do with making combat based more on dodging manually or attacking manually.
Let's give an example of what this can look like. We have a super rat boss, a tank, a healer and 3 dps. The super rat boss uses bite on the tank, the tank takes 10 damage. His health is now at 90. The healer uses the ability heal, and restores 10 health to the tank. One dps uses fireball, and it deals 10 damage to the super rat boss. His health is now at 90. Another dps punches it, dealing another 10 damage, and another shoots an arrow at it dealing another 10 damage. This is not turn based by the way, it's all happening at the same time.
Now, do you see any difference, any difference at all between that description so far, and any other mmorpg combat on a fundamental level, and ignoring the oversimplification? No? Good, lets continue.
The super rat boss dies. His corpse falls to the floor, where it is no longer obstructing the path behind him, where the adventurers find a pile of gold. They split it amoungst themselves, and leave the dungeon.
Notice the difference? What wasn't there? No xp gain, no stat increases, no ability points earned to use toward buying more abilities. Does that effect anything at all?
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That seems to be the point OP is trying to make. Keep all the activities you can do in an MMO(RPG), but remove the character progression as the motivating factor to do them.
This could cause more tactical game play between players and require a much higher skill based to be desired by groups. However, the challenge would have to progress.
Meaning you would need easier enemies to fight at the beginning of your game, and finding ones with increasing difficulty later on? Absolutely.
Doesn't need continually increasing player stats to do that. In fact, should be easier to do without.
First of all, that actually doesn't take place in progression based games, because your character's strength increases at the same rate that the level of difficulty of the content you are trying to do increases. However, it could be included in a game without progression, very easily. There could be regions with monsters and dungeons with bosses that have less forgiving AI than you find in the starter areas.
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