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"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is

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  • ignore_meignore_me Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,987
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Colin Johanson said nearly the exact same thing before GW2. He specifically said someone could play a tank "role" or a support "role" if they wanted, but wouldn't be required. I don't trust dev TALK, I need to see this to believe anything they say at this point. 

    Agree. Ask yourself, how likely is it that they will come out and say: Ok yeah DPS is really the only role we have that is effective in this system, but we don't want to change it.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • KuanshuKuanshu Member Posts: 272

    Couldn't believe this thread was 35 pages until I started skimming through it....this is only one of the many threads concerning the long awaited demise of the Holy Trinity.

    Are people really this stuck on the Trinity?

    Imagine this for a moment: MOB AI wherein MOBs were repeatedly duped (well past ad nauseum) into attacking one target whilst another remained unscathed and tended to heals; meanwhile DPS is systematically unloading their arsenal into the MOB no matter how collosal, formidable, notorious, etc...the MOB would concentrate all of its attacks to the intended target and the fight was often over before it began...

    Booooooooring!

    No wonder PvP in MMORPGs has such a following and is often held in contempt, often by those who have enjoyed years knowing their role, so to speak

    Guess I could never settle into a role and was always dismayed by many aspects of PvE, yet tolerated much of it when it came to be geared well enough to participate in PvP, as there are many of us who prefer a real challenge against a real opponent who isn't so easily duped

    I really felt for the MOBs over the years, as they were nothing but static parts of the scenery, as even wandering MOBs had a specific area they navigated for years

    Immersion is a word that has yet to truly manifest in a MMORPG

    I will admit the action combat sequences previewed in the Debut were pretty out of sync as the unreactive/unresponsive MOBs were being mowed down without recourse or hardly any regard for that matter...

    Alot of talk about ZERGs going around as this is a strategy often utilized in large scale PvP; I for one would surely welcome an organized ZERG comprised of the indigenous MOBs in the area. A seige of the sorts on the deserters who left the lands in ruin and chaos as they bowed down to the might of the dragons who once reigned in the lands untamed.

    I watched "After Earth" and it was interesting when they showed how the earth was after 1000 years of non occupation by humans. Humans regarded Earth as a quarantined planet where all life was considered a hostile threat and even the planet itself was considered uninhabitable.

    Until more information comes our way guess this period will be a transition period of sorts as there is no doubt in my mind people will play and enjoy whatever SOE brings forth as much of all of this is much more interesting then the old rehash of dumbed down game mechanics

  • EcocesEcoces Member UncommonPosts: 879

    i just hope they add a lot more active stuff to do unlike guild wars where all you could do is dodge. like give warriors active blocking, give other characters parrying.

     

    hope they can do more than just make it a DPS race. what i would like to see them do is instead of making it were you fight one mob at a time you will fight packs of mobs. lets face it, its very unepic to have to split pull one orc at a time because getting more than one will wipe the group.

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    Originally posted by Ecoces

    i just hope they add a lot more active stuff to do unlike guild wars where all you could do is dodge. like give warriors active blocking, give other characters parrying.

     

    hope they can do more than just make it a DPS race.

    UH - warriors can actively block if you have a shield equipped - in fact you can interrupt with the shield.

     

    Parry - you can parry also - a mesmer with dual swords can parry.

     

    Please really play the game before posting - you look dumb.


  • EcocesEcoces Member UncommonPosts: 879
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ecoces

    i just hope they add a lot more active stuff to do unlike guild wars where all you could do is dodge. like give warriors active blocking, give other characters parrying.

     

    hope they can do more than just make it a DPS race.

    UH - warriors can actively block if you have a shield equipped - in fact you can interrupt with the shield.

     

    Parry - you can parry also - a mesmer with dual swords can parry.

     

    Please really play the game before posting - you look dumb.

     

    yes but then they are on cooldown, im not talking about that, im talking about Dark Souls or other action oriented games where you say hold a specific to bring up your shield and it costs endurance or something.

  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550


    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    The thing that is primitive is action combat.It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time. So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market. On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community. Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"

    Post of the day! (Tuesday, that is). Well said.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • termsytermsy Member Posts: 100
    Originally posted by Ecoces
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ecoces

    i just hope they add a lot more active stuff to do unlike guild wars where all you could do is dodge. like give warriors active blocking, give other characters parrying.

     

    hope they can do more than just make it a DPS race.

    UH - warriors can actively block if you have a shield equipped - in fact you can interrupt with the shield.

     

    Parry - you can parry also - a mesmer with dual swords can parry.

     

    Please really play the game before posting - you look dumb.

     

    yes but then they are on cooldown, im not talking about that, im talking about Dark Souls or other action oriented games where you say hold a specific to bring up your shield and it costs endurance or something.

     

    If this game had Darksouls combat, I would be so in love.

  • SomeOldBlokeSomeOldBloke Member UncommonPosts: 2,167
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

    Attitudes like this is why we complain about a lack of innovation in MMOs.

  • MarkusrindMarkusrind Member Posts: 359

    Been thinking about this and thought of an interesting tie in to the whole 'A life of consequence'.

    For example. Say your character has killed a lot of Orcs. Orcs might recognise you and part of their AI may mean that they Really want to kill you. So if you were in a group that is fighting Orcs and one of the Orcs recognises you they would want to focus on you irrespective of other combat decisions. The whole idea of mobs having sets of motivations, not just the simple ones like kill the healer could bring an entire new slant on how combat works. If your group recognises that the Orcs are targeting you then tactically that can be used to put the Orcs into bad situations simply by using the mage as bait.

     

    I can't wait till we finally get to see their AI in play and see how it works.

  • Bad.dogBad.dog Member UncommonPosts: 1,131
    Originally posted by mbd1968
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

    Attitudes like this is why we complain about a lack of innovation in MMOs.

    Let's all go to the Disco tonight ...dance the night away under the bright lights

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Bad.dog
    Originally posted by mbd1968
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

    Attitudes like this is why we complain about a lack of innovation in MMOs.

    Let's all go to the Disco tonight ...dance the night away under the bright lights

    grab you coat

         grab you coat

              say goodbye 

                   say goodbye

     

     

     

    ....

     

    What? No one else saw the remake of Footloose? image

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GrailerGrailer Member UncommonPosts: 893
    Originally posted by termsy
    Originally posted by Ecoces
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ecoces

    i just hope they add a lot more active stuff to do unlike guild wars where all you could do is dodge. like give warriors active blocking, give other characters parrying.

     

    hope they can do more than just make it a DPS race.

    UH - warriors can actively block if you have a shield equipped - in fact you can interrupt with the shield.

     

    Parry - you can parry also - a mesmer with dual swords can parry.

     

    Please really play the game before posting - you look dumb.

     

    yes but then they are on cooldown, im not talking about that, im talking about Dark Souls or other action oriented games where you say hold a specific to bring up your shield and it costs endurance or something.

     

    If this game had Darksouls combat, I would be so in love.

     

    It appears BLACK DESERT will have darksouls type combat , it also looks better than EQN .

    All EQN has going for it is that you can dig a hole in the ground .

     

  • NagelRitterNagelRitter Member Posts: 607
    Originally posted by Grailer

    All EQN has going for it is that you can dig a hole in the ground .

    Man, Minecraft was such an unpopular game, it didn't sell at all and doesn't have a gigantic community.

    Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
    Currently playing: GW2, EVE
    Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  • DatawarlockDatawarlock Member Posts: 338
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Kuppa
     

    They will probably have tons of "things" that can happen. They just assemble them differently, after a while we will probably notice the trick. Same with AI, there is a always a number of patterns that we will catch up to quickly.

    Which will mean the system is working whether it's scripted or behavior based on "wants and needs", people are figuring out the strategy behind it. That's the problem many seem to find in GW2, there's (according to them) no strategy involved it's just chaos. Hence creating a zerg mentality/feeling/

    That ends up being the same thing. After a bit people know what happens, there is no "intelligent" system coming up with things. It just picks from the different preset scenarios and throws them at the players. This is NOT what many are thinking when they talk about EQNext, they expect a ton more. And the AI, I'm sure players are expecting it to be like humans but I'm pretty sure that is far from reality.

    Not exactly, like my example I stated earlier, rather than scripting they could use habits and behavior, that leaves room for different scenarios to pan out. Like say Goblins have a tendency to go after healers, yet when angered (certain skill, taunt like mechanics, certain type of metal hitting it etc..) it could change tactics. It's similar to a trinity, yet not exactly based on dice rolls and a skill that wins affections. It would be based on habit rather than script. IF it's similar I don't see what the problem is, as most complaining about the GW2 similarity, seem to want the trinity anyway.

    I'm just going along with them saying it requires a different approach.

     

    You do realize that everything you're saying is SCRIPT BASED. Habits? Scripts. Behavior? Scripts.

    10 IF BLAH GOTO 20

    20 IF OTHER_BLAH GOTO 30

     

    Yeah, my example is basic (literally), but that's how things work. Mobs aren't true AI and aren't free thinking and won't be able to do anything outside of what's been SCRIPTED lol

  • g0m0rrahg0m0rrah Member UncommonPosts: 325
    The trinity is old news and needs to go. The problem is that the current crop of developers have proven that they lack the ability to do anything other than what someone else has done.

    What we need is an evolution of tactical play with hybridized roles. You can choose to do nothing but heal. You can choose to do nothing but damage. You can choose to combine every role but not master any one.

    In my opinion the so called trinity is inversely proportional to tactical combat. One person pulls, one person tanks, another cc, and another heals. We all know our strict role so now let's walk through all encounters with ease.

    I prefer a game where in a group several people can heal others and some can self heal. Several people deal damage and cc. Several people tank. Seriously what's better, one person absorbing all the punishment or 2 to 3 people splitting it up between them.

    I want chaotic encounters where people have to think on their feet and not static trinity encounters where oh noes we need this specific class because he is the only one that can reduce this stat and allow us to win.
  • MarkusrindMarkusrind Member Posts: 359
    Originally posted by loopback1199

     

     

    You do realize that everything you're saying is SCRIPT BASED. Habits? Scripts. Behavior? Scripts.

    10 IF BLAH GOTO 20

    20 IF OTHER_BLAH GOTO 30

     

    Yeah, my example is basic (literally), but that's how things work. Mobs aren't true AI and aren't free thinking and won't be able to do anything outside of what's been SCRIPTED lol

    Humans are just a lot, I mean a LOT, of scripted choice paths....have enough of them and how would you tell the difference?

  • GregorMcgregorGregorMcgregor Member UncommonPosts: 263
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

     

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

    Dooooooooomed! ....that is all, move along!

    No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!

    image

    ...10% Benevolence, 90% Arrogance in my case!
  • NagelRitterNagelRitter Member Posts: 607
    Originally posted by loopback1199

    You do realize that everything you're saying is SCRIPT BASED. Habits? Scripts. Behavior? Scripts.

    10 IF BLAH GOTO 20

    20 IF OTHER_BLAH GOTO 30

    Yeah, my example is basic (literally), but that's how things work. Mobs aren't true AI and aren't free thinking and won't be able to do anything outside of what's been SCRIPTED lol

    Does it matter? What are you trying to say? Yes, we haven't invented true AI yet.

    Does this mean there is no difference between different kinds of AI, that there's no complexity, and that AI cannot be simulated to be very effective and convincing? No.

    "It's all scripted!" is a useless statement. You may be technically correct, but that doesn't have any influence on the actual fact of AI complexity being important. The systems can get incredibly complex when managing advanced AI, it's really not as simple as "if then" anymore.

    Also, generally, AI is distinguished from scripting. Things like habits or behavior are not considered scripts. Scripts are indeed usually rather simplified ranges of IF statements. They are most encountered in modern FPS: if player steps in location X, do Y, and it goes on like that because FPS currently have very limited environments so you can heavily script encounters. They're also the same every time. That is what is usually called scripting. Most MMO AI is also heavily scripted to the point that Boss Mods work.

    The other forms of AI are not called scripting. For instance, AI for RTS games, TBS games, for bots in Arena FPS, is adaptive AI that can observe what the player is doing and react accordingly. This is not considered scripted because this AI can change its behavior and it is not immediately predictable.

    More advanced AI are examples of games such as the TES series. There was also quite a bit of behavioral AI in older no-direct-control games like Majesty, Dungeon Keeper, and Black and White.

    Most of AI these days outside of heavily cinematic, scripted single player campaigns in certain FPS (Battlefield 3), is not scripted.

    You need to get a check on your terms and stop sitting on a high horse of: "OMG I have minimal knowledge of something in AI it's all so simple it's just scripts!" It makes you look stupid or cynical or both. "Why do you play video games, it's just fucking pixels! You're just staring at pixels!" is what you sound like.

    Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
    Currently playing: GW2, EVE
    Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  • termsytermsy Member Posts: 100
    Originally posted by NagelRitter
    Originally posted by loopback1199

    You do realize that everything you're saying is SCRIPT BASED. Habits? Scripts. Behavior? Scripts.

    10 IF BLAH GOTO 20

    20 IF OTHER_BLAH GOTO 30

    Yeah, my example is basic (literally), but that's how things work. Mobs aren't true AI and aren't free thinking and won't be able to do anything outside of what's been SCRIPTED lol

    Does it matter? What are you trying to say? Yes, we haven't invented true AI yet.

    Does this mean there is no difference between different kinds of AI, that there's no complexity, and that AI cannot be simulated to be very effective and convincing? No.

    "It's all scripted!" is a useless statement. You may be technically correct, but that doesn't have any influence on the actual fact of AI complexity being important. The systems can get incredibly complex when managing advanced AI, it's really not as simple as "if then" anymore.

    Also, generally, AI is distinguished from scripting. Things like habits or behavior are not considered scripts. Scripts are indeed usually rather simplified ranges of IF statements. They are most encountered in modern FPS: if player steps in location X, do Y, and it goes on like that because FPS currently have very limited environments so you can heavily script encounters. They're also the same every time. That is what is usually called scripting. Most MMO AI is also heavily scripted to the point that Boss Mods work.

    The other forms of AI are not called scripting. For instance, AI for RTS games, TBS games, for bots in Arena FPS, is adaptive AI that can observe what the player is doing and react accordingly. This is not considered scripted because this AI can change its behavior and it is not immediately predictable.

    More advanced AI are examples of games such as the TES series. There was also quite a bit of behavioral AI in older no-direct-control games like Majesty, Dungeon Keeper, and Black and White.

    Most of AI these days outside of heavily cinematic, scripted single player campaigns in certain FPS (Battlefield 3), is not scripted.

    You need to get a check on your terms and stop sitting on a high horse of: "OMG I have minimal knowledge of something in AI it's all so simple it's just scripts!" It makes you look stupid or cynical or both. "Why do you play video games, it's just fucking pixels! You're just staring at pixels!" is what you sound like.

     

    I don't know if anyone has played The Last of Us on PS3 yet, but the AI in that game is fantastic. The enemy adapts to a bunch of situations. Running out of ammo, positioning, etc.

  • GregorMcgregorGregorMcgregor Member UncommonPosts: 263
    Originally posted by g0m0rrah
    The trinity is old news and needs to go. The problem is that the current crop of developers have proven that they lack the ability to do anything other than what someone else has done.

    What we need is an evolution of tactical play with hybridized roles. You can choose to do nothing but heal. You can choose to do nothing but damage. You can choose to combine every role but not master any one.

    In my opinion the so called trinity is inversely proportional to tactical combat. One person pulls, one person tanks, another cc, and another heals. We all know our strict role so now let's walk through all encounters with ease.

    I prefer a game where in a group several people can heal others and some can self heal. Several people deal damage and cc. Several people tank. Seriously what's better, one person absorbing all the punishment or 2 to 3 people splitting it up between them.

    I want chaotic encounters where people have to think on their feet and not static trinity encounters where oh noes we need this specific class because he is the only one that can reduce this stat and allow us to win.

    I'd call it "specializing". Take for example vanila WoW's Paladin, or LotRO's Captain early on, both, were awful and a waste of space and yet both were pushed out as "support" or as you said "every role but not master any one".

    If I want my house painted and don't phone a Soldier or a Doctor.

    MMO's without roles soon make for anti-social borefests with everyone as a clone of each other.

    Then you have the old problem of "LFG Tank!" etc., which then becomes "I want to heal!", "No! I do!" *fight**scream**squabble*.

    Or, you get the GW2 issue where nobody wants to be the 1st character into the room in a dungeon because they know they will be set upon by all the mobs as there is zero control worth a salt. And even it, the great "Be what you want, spec how you want!" game has seen that backfire with only set classes with set builds get into Factals. Elitists in a solo player like MMO, now that IS scary! :(

    No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!

    image

    ...10% Benevolence, 90% Arrogance in my case!
  • NagelRitterNagelRitter Member Posts: 607
    Originally posted by GregorMcgregor

    I'd call it "specializing". Take for example vanila WoW's Paladin, or LotRO's Captain early on, both, were awful and a waste of space and yet both were pushed out as "support" or as you said "every role but not master any one".

    If I want my house painted and don't phone a Soldier or a Doctor.

    What does this have to do with the Trinity? Trinity is Tank-Healer-DPS. No other roles.

    What you're thinking of is closer to SWG, which DID actually have roles like a real doctor or a crafter or someone else. It also didn't really have the whole Trinity nonsense. Nor did UO.

    You can promote specialization without forcing your game to support it. If you have to actively design your game to force something to work, your entire system is broken.

     

    And a lot of the arguments brought up are just silly. Why are you people squabbling? Why are you not in a guild? Why do you not have an organized group of people to play with? Why are people even getting away with squabbling? Is the Trinity void of this? No, it's not.

    Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
    Currently playing: GW2, EVE
    Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  • GregorMcgregorGregorMcgregor Member UncommonPosts: 263
    Originally posted by NagelRitter
    Originally posted by GregorMcgregor

    I'd call it "specializing". Take for example vanila WoW's Paladin, or LotRO's Captain early on, both, were awful and a waste of space and yet both were pushed out as "support" or as you said "every role but not master any one".

    If I want my house painted and don't phone a Soldier or a Doctor.

    What does this have to do with the Trinity? Trinity is Tank-Healer-DPS. No other roles.

    What you're thinking of is closer to SWG, which DID actually have roles like a real doctor or a crafter or someone else. It also didn't really have the whole Trinity nonsense. Nor did UO.

    You can promote specialization without forcing your game to support it. If you have to actively design your game to force something to work, your entire system is broken.

     

    And a lot of the arguments brought up are just silly. Why are you people squabbling? Why are you not in a guild? Why do you not have an organized group of people to play with? Why are people even getting away with squabbling? Is the Trinity void of this? No, it's not.

    "Why are you people squabbling?" Have you played any MMO lately? Most anti-social places in history, my local old folks home has more life and chatter in it!

    And what has it to do with the Trinity? Tanking, Healing and DPS are, guess what? ROLES! And it was in answer to the poster who said about having no trinity and getting a "master of everything" type class.

    Do keep up please! Thank you.

    No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!

    image

    ...10% Benevolence, 90% Arrogance in my case!
  • ignore_meignore_me Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,987
    Originally posted by g0m0rrah
    The trinity is old news and needs to go. The problem is that the current crop of developers have proven that they lack the ability to do anything other than what someone else has done.

    What we need is an evolution of tactical play with hybridized roles. You can choose to do nothing but heal. You can choose to do nothing but damage. You can choose to combine every role but not master any one.

    In my opinion the so called trinity is inversely proportional to tactical combat. One person pulls, one person tanks, another cc, and another heals. We all know our strict role so now let's walk through all encounters with ease.

    I prefer a game where in a group several people can heal others and some can self heal. Several people deal damage and cc. Several people tank. Seriously what's better, one person absorbing all the punishment or 2 to 3 people splitting it up between them.

    I want chaotic encounters where people have to think on their feet and not static trinity encounters where oh noes we need this specific class because he is the only one that can reduce this stat and allow us to win.

    I think you have pointed out the essence of it. Trinity isn't great, but there is no workable alternative that has been published.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • patstewartvapatstewartva Member Posts: 4
    But with the new $100/month subscription model, they will be able to hire thousands of poor Chinese kids to run every mob in the game individually!  image
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by ragz45

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x-PFqE9Ys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7We0TNUWQ

    Is a prime example of what people are afraid of.  GW2 dev's call this organic grouping.  IE your playing together without needing to form a group.  What we players call this, is a mess.  There's no group based tactics, no communication, everyone just running around doing their own thing.

    OMG, what a mess

    In Everquest they would have wiped after 2 seconds and our guild leader would have flamed them for 4 hours straight and then kicked them out of the guild.

    Trinity please!

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