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"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is

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  • irpugbossirpugboss Member UncommonPosts: 427
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

     

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

     

    This is based on what exactly?  Hype?  Because we clearly have no evidence of that.   The trinity imo is absolutely critical to a successive MMORPG.  I cannot grasp any means for a non trinity combat system could be anything more than a zerg.  Maybe they can be the ones to finally pull it off, but I am not holding my breadth.  I don't see how it could be done!

     

    TESO also said they were going to downplay the trinity, and we saw how that worked out in the gameplay footage at Quakecon.  Everyone just sort of did whatever, and they progressed through the dungeon without any coordination or care. 

    Not seeing how it can be done does not mean it cannot be done.

    True.  Lots of people have thought up solutions that I would likely have never come up with.  Emergent AI for example.  I didn't actually put any thought into that, as I didn't consider it a problem, but that is a great idea none the less.

    Fact remains though it has been tried numerous times, even recently, and it has always failed to live up to the hype.  I see no reason to believe this time to be different.  its not like they are using vastly superior technology or something. 

    In other words, I will believe it when I see it.  So, don't go killing off the holy trinity just yet, or we very well might not have anything to play!

    Just to mention, they are actually using a new (not sure if superior yet) technology called storybricks that should effect the AI in a significant way. IF I understand storybricks correctly, AI should be more proactive with its strategy in EQN and less reactive, it should also have fewer scripted/timed attacks.

    Then again we have to see it in action to say if Storybricks is a new revolutionary mmo AI tool, or if its just more of the same AI that is just more simple to setup with its modular logic for basic NPC interaction. I definitely understand the cause for saying you need to "see it to believe it"...I do as well, but I am cautiously optimistic from all I have read about StoryBricks prior to EQN.

    Disclaimer: I am no techpriest, only an enthusiast for all the mmo tech I can read about.

    image
  • PAL-18PAL-18 Member UncommonPosts: 844
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Sovrath
     

    Do you see any evidence in the combat videos we have seen so far that show this out of the box AI thinking?  If they have a proof of concept video (assuming they are pros) they should prove it to us by showing releasing the video.  If not, it could just be pie in the sky.

    He is making a statement that action combat is limited "primitive. I addressed that.

    It doesn't have to be that way. He says it doesn't allow for pulling which is ridiculous (and I don't believe in pulling anyway as per another posters earlier statement) as all one has to do is aim and pull. CC can be done any number of ways, cone around the player, cone around the player but allies block its effect so that you have to position yourself correctly, an aim and a successful hit, maybe a stat check to see if it works.

    Inferior tanking? well once again I loved tanking in Tera where i would position my body between myself and the healer and slam with my shield, stun him and allow the healer to move to a better spot. In addition I really loved my chain that I could thow out and pull trash mobs to me or literally stop the boss if the effect worked. It was very "in the moment". I also had to always attack to build up my power otherwise just standing there and blocking would not only drain power but I'd lose the mob/boss's attention because it would go to someone else. But maybe a tank has more to do than just being weak but able to take hits? Maybe a tank does decent damage as he should but can grab mobs, throw them, be a barrier, have a power that is a yell that throws mobs back, maybe stunning them.

    For healing? Same as CC, cone, possible position requirement, an aim, maybe even an actual touch, why not? Maybe a mechanic where the healer has to constantly be fighting and blocking. As long as the mob doesn't land a hit the healer emits an aura of protection or healing or "you name your poison" but as soon as the healer is touched the concentration breaks and he/she has to build it up again. maybe the healer has an ability where he can link to a mob, maybe forcing that mob to beat on him and he sacrifces his health but passes the loss as healing to a player he has linked to. How about a holy healer who must inscribe a holy symbol in various areas as the fighting continues and then once finishing the last one a huge heal goes off in the area the symbols cover?

    It can be anything you want.  Maybe a Bard that has a musical mini-game, one that is easy enough for non-musicians to master, that continually allows for a buff or a steady heal over time but that Bard can't be hit or it breaks his concentration, loses the buff/healing. Or the buff/healing is better or worse depending how how well he does in the mini-game. Tabbing to an enemy and hitting a button on a hotbar is not more "bettah" than aiming a skill, emitting a cone (or aiming a cone) or area of effect or having to touch another player. Add your layers as you see fit.

    Just because some companies haven't used it to its potential doesn't mean that depth can't be added.

     

     

    MMORPG action combat without hitboxes is pretty primitive in my eyes ,its year 2013 allready ,hey :)

    Blocking is not the only option just aim monster in the legs and he wont move anywhere without legs,cut his wings etc.

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    MMORPG action combat without hitboxes is pretty primitive in my eyes ,its year 2013 allready ,hey :)

    I know, right? In AC we had high, medium, and low attacks which opened the door to so many more possibilities but that, like so many other combat features, simply fell to the wayside.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856
    people can barely keep up with actual content in simple game and you want smarter ai?i don't mind smarter ai but put same health as player!
  • sirphobossirphobos Member UncommonPosts: 620

    My problem is that EQ1 combat was strategic.  Everyone had an important role to play and had to play that role well to be successful:

    The puller tried to keep a manageable amount of mobs in the camp

    The CC person locked down extra targets and watched for CC breaks and reapplied CC

    The tank identified priority targets and called for assists from the DPS (when was the last time someone used an assist button in an MMORPG?)

    The DPS assisted the tank and avoided getting aggro or breaking CC

    The healer kept everyone alive

    The debuffers debuffed mobs to help out the healer

    So called "action combat" games that I have seen throw all strategy out the window and turn everything into a zerg that does not require working together or any type of communication whatsoever.  Can SoE come up with a system that requires strategy and teamwork without class roles? I have serious doubts.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    Originally posted by PAL-18

     

    MMORPG action combat without hitboxes is pretty primitive in my eyes ,its year 2013 allready ,hey :)

    Blocking is not the only option just aim monster in the legs and he wont move anywhere without legs,cut his wings etc.

     

    Sounds fine to me though the mob would have to also have the same chance to "cripple" as well. Not sure how players would deal with that or if it would be fun. Then again, if we go a more "realistic" route then fights might be very short.

    edit: do you mean "specific" hit boxes for different areas? I ask because don't most mmo's utilize some sort of "hit box"?

     

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  • ChrisboxChrisbox Member UncommonPosts: 1,729
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.

    I guess the EQN team didn't play guild wars 2.

    You can't have no trinity without zergs.  Everything is a zerg, as much as I hate to admit it.  

    Played-Everything
    Playing-LoL

  • ragz45ragz45 Member UncommonPosts: 810
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

     

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

    How do you know what the end AI will actually be like?  Promises by the Dev's?  So far the only hard evidence we have to go on is the video of the combat that has been shown so far.  Which looks VERY similar to GW2.

    If they really want to quash everyone's fears about combat being faceroll heavy (gw2), give us some video's that actually show this amazing AI in action.  Until I see hard evidence of an amazing AI that, that somehow transforms the combat from GW2 to something actually tactical.  I'm going to have to go with the evidence we have at hand.

  • ragz45ragz45 Member UncommonPosts: 810
    Originally posted by sirphobos

    My problem is that EQ1 combat was strategic.  Everyone had an important role to play and had to play that role well to be successful:

    The puller tried to keep a manageable amount of mobs in the camp

    The CC person locked down extra targets and watched for CC breaks and reapplied CC

    The tank identified priority targets and called for assists from the DPS (when was the last time someone used an assist button in an MMORPG?)

    The DPS assisted the tank and avoided getting aggro or breaking CC

    The healer kept everyone alive

    The debuffers debuffed mobs to help out the healer

    So called "action combat" games that I have seen throw all strategy out the window and turn everything into a zerg that does not require working together or any type of communication whatsoever.  Can SoE come up with a system that requires strategy and teamwork without class roles? I have serious doubts.

    QFT

  • NagelRitterNagelRitter Member Posts: 607
    Originally posted by sirphobos

    So called "action combat" games that I have seen throw all strategy out the window and turn everything into a zerg that does not require working together or any type of communication whatsoever.

    Are you trying to imply that professional Dota 2 players are not working together, not communicating, and have no strategy?

    Please answer that. I want to know.

    Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
    Currently playing: GW2, EVE
    Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  • sirphobossirphobos Member UncommonPosts: 620
    Originally posted by NagelRitter
    Originally posted by sirphobos

    So called "action combat" games that I have seen throw all strategy out the window and turn everything into a zerg that does not require working together or any type of communication whatsoever.

    Are you trying to imply that professional Dota 2 players are not working together, not communicating, and have no strategy?

    Please answer that. I want to know.

    DOTA is not an MMORPG.  I am talking about roleless PvE in MMORPGs.

  • ragz45ragz45 Member UncommonPosts: 810

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x-PFqE9Ys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7We0TNUWQ

    Is a prime example of what people are afraid of.  GW2 dev's call this organic grouping.  IE your playing together without needing to form a group.  What we players call this, is a mess.  There's no group based tactics, no communication, everyone just running around doing their own thing.

  • sirphobossirphobos Member UncommonPosts: 620
    Originally posted by ragz45

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x-PFqE9Ys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7We0TNUWQ

    Is a prime example of what people are afraid of.  GW2 dev's call this organic grouping.  IE your playing together without needing to form a group.  What we players call this, is a mess.  There's no group based tactics, no communication, everyone just running around doing their own thing.

    Pretty much this.  I don't see how that chaos is considered fun (or challenging).

  • korent1991korent1991 Member UncommonPosts: 1,364
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.

    Every game has that - get over it.
     

    EQ has no zerg whatsoever, none, and the reason is the trinity system and the dependency and controlled and strategic combat it creates.

    so basically, you're saying it's impossible to create a good semi-action combat system for MMORPGs without any trace of old trinity?

    that kind of thinking just makes me wonder why in the hell would you be satisfied with that?! IT'S BORING... You're determined to do only one role with your character and it's repetitive as hell... no diversity what so ever and I can't adjust to the situational requirments.

    In order to give us something better than what we already have requires innovation. Holy trinity is, in it's core, limited and thus it can't be interesting for long nor can it contribute to the next gen games. Trinity was created more than 10 years ago, I think it's finally time to evolve this stall mmorpg combat and questing system.

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  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    MMORPG action combat without hitboxes is pretty primitive in my eyes ,its year 2013 allready ,hey :)

    I know, right? In AC we had high, medium, and low attacks which opened the door to so many more possibilities but that, like so many other combat features, simply fell to the wayside.

    Guild Wars hat locational hit and damage and was sort of an action-tab hybrid like its successor.  You could put runes on each piece of armour just for that purpose.

    I really like action-oriented combat.  I'm sure it will keep evolving just like everything else.

    I'm also not a huge fan of the trinity. Or I should really say not a huge fan of how tank, taunt, and aggro mechanics work in traditional trinity combat.

    You couldn't aim though - was just random plus some skill auto default some area.

    Full aim MMORPGs are a long way - most don't even allow hitbox aim - because they will murder your system.

    Just came from anandtech forums where one guy with an i7 [email protected] and a 7970@1200/1400 is complaining that GW2 is "slaying" his PC.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066
    Originally posted by sirphobos
    Originally posted by ragz45

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x-PFqE9Ys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7We0TNUWQ

    Is a prime example of what people are afraid of.  GW2 dev's call this organic grouping.  IE your playing together without needing to form a group.  What we players call this, is a mess.  There's no group based tactics, no communication, everyone just running around doing their own thing.

    Pretty much this.  I don't see how that chaos is considered fun (or challenging).

    So are you guys comparing Open world game play with confined instances?

    Next you going to compare professional LoL/Dota 2 with pub LoL/Dota 2.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • PAL-18PAL-18 Member UncommonPosts: 844
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    MMORPG action combat without hitboxes is pretty primitive in my eyes ,its year 2013 allready ,hey :)

    I know, right? In AC we had high, medium, and low attacks which opened the door to so many more possibilities but that, like so many other combat features, simply fell to the wayside.

    Guild Wars hat locational hit and damage and was sort of an action-tab hybrid like its successor.  You could put runes on each piece of armour just for that purpose.

    I really like action-oriented combat.  I'm sure it will keep evolving just like everything else.

    I'm also not a huge fan of the trinity. Or I should really say not a huge fan of how tank, taunt, and aggro mechanics work in traditional trinity combat.

    You couldn't aim though - was just random plus some skill auto default some area.

    Full aim MMORPGs are a long way - most don't even allow hitbox aim - because they will murder your system.

    Just came from anandtech forums where one guy with an i7 [email protected] and a 7970@1200/1400 is complaining that GW2 is "slaying" his PC.

    Not really ,World of Tanks is doing it just fine right now.

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **

  • zwei2zwei2 Member Posts: 361
    hype... hot, exciting air with a tingling scent of strawberry...

    The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by sirphobos
    Originally posted by ragz45

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x-PFqE9Ys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7We0TNUWQ

    Is a prime example of what people are afraid of.  GW2 dev's call this organic grouping.  IE your playing together without needing to form a group.  What we players call this, is a mess.  There's no group based tactics, no communication, everyone just running around doing their own thing.

    Pretty much this.  I don't see how that chaos is considered fun (or challenging).

    So are you guys comparing Open world game play with confined instances?

    Next you going to compare professional LoL/Dota 2 with pub LoL/Dota 2.

    EQN will have no "confined instances" like you have in past games.. that is a confirmed FACT..  it's all open world

  • DihoruDihoru Member Posts: 2,731
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by sirphobos
    Originally posted by ragz45

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x-PFqE9Ys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7We0TNUWQ

    Is a prime example of what people are afraid of.  GW2 dev's call this organic grouping.  IE your playing together without needing to form a group.  What we players call this, is a mess.  There's no group based tactics, no communication, everyone just running around doing their own thing.

    Pretty much this.  I don't see how that chaos is considered fun (or challenging).

    So are you guys comparing Open world game play with confined instances?

    Next you going to compare professional LoL/Dota 2 with pub LoL/Dota 2.

    EQN will have no "confined instances" like you have in past games.. that is a confirmed FACT..  it's all open world

    And you think he was saying EQN has instances?...

    image
  • azarhalazarhal Member RarePosts: 1,402
    Originally posted by sirphobos
    Originally posted by ragz45

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x-PFqE9Ys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7We0TNUWQ

    Is a prime example of what people are afraid of.  GW2 dev's call this organic grouping.  IE your playing together without needing to form a group.  What we players call this, is a mess.  There's no group based tactics, no communication, everyone just running around doing their own thing.

    Pretty much this.  I don't see how that chaos is considered fun (or challenging).

    Best Champion Farm Spot.

    GW2 is filled with players that are all about farming shit from Champions as fast as possible and the best way to do this is join a zerg. They don't want something challenging, they want to make "money". 

    These people would find the fastest way to make money in any MMOs. It's all about the farming/effort ratio.

  • KroganKrogan Member UncommonPosts: 304

    The issue with GW2 was indeed the zergy nature of the combat, this was highlighted with far too many teleport/fast movement type abilities and lack of collision playing a role in combat.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    MMORPG action combat without hitboxes is pretty primitive in my eyes ,its year 2013 allready ,hey :)

    I know, right? In AC we had high, medium, and low attacks which opened the door to so many more possibilities but that, like so many other combat features, simply fell to the wayside.

    Guild Wars hat locational hit and damage and was sort of an action-tab hybrid like its successor.  You could put runes on each piece of armour just for that purpose.

    I really like action-oriented combat.  I'm sure it will keep evolving just like everything else.

    I'm also not a huge fan of the trinity. Or I should really say not a huge fan of how tank, taunt, and aggro mechanics work in traditional trinity combat.

    You couldn't aim though - was just random plus some skill auto default some area.

    Full aim MMORPGs are a long way - most don't even allow hitbox aim - because they will murder your system.

    Just came from anandtech forums where one guy with an i7 [email protected] and a 7970@1200/1400 is complaining that GW2 is "slaying" his PC.

    Not really ,World of Tanks is doing it just fine right now.

     

    With 60 players per battle, if I'm not mistaken.

    If you define a MMORPG by a game with a max of 60 players... and no mobs.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • furbansfurbans Member UncommonPosts: 968

    Hype garbage is all this AI talk is.  Just like how everyone bought Rift's "Dynamic" events or GW2's DEs having "impact" on the world.

    Until they actual PROVE and SHOW that the holy trinity is obsolete with this new AI everything they say is utter and total hype BS.

  • MaznukMaznuk Member Posts: 3

    I also am very skeptical of this superior AI and removal of the trinity.  I was so ready to jump into GW2 and told all of my guild members in WoW how GW2 was the future.  While GW2 does a lot of things right the removal of the trinity did not work out so well.  I absolutely despise doing dungeons in GW2.  After a few hours of play I feel as if I have "chicken-claw hand" from all the dodging and weapon switching that has to be done.  I shouldn't have to feel like I've just played Beethoven's 5th on my keyboard to complete an event or dungeon.

    One thing that really concerns me with the removal of the trinity is the lack of community.  From EQ, DAOC, WoW, etc... you met people out in the world to fill a role in your dungeon party if you had open spots.  If that healer or tank happened to be great at their job and a "good person" chances are they would be added to your friends list and possibly even a future guild member.  I still have friends to this day that I met this way through the game.  In GW2 you rarely even speak to anyone in your dynamic event or PUG dungeon run.  

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