I just wish more developers stuck to their vision rather than folding to the suits or the customers. A developer that says HEY, HERE IS OUR GAME, you are either gonna like it or not, but it isn't changing till when or if we decide to change it.
I think in all honesty everything would be alot better if more developers took this stance, though there are too many factors that make it where they can't either financially or otherwise. Core fanbase always decides what they like, but more often than not the game they started playing and loved at first turns into something they detest and something completely different after X amount of people have swayed the dev teams to do so, then usually failure follows in general as the game doesn't even have a core fanbase anymore.
They are the costumer. And the costumer is always right.
The customer is not always right. In fact, more often than not the customer is a blithering idiot. Almost anyone who has ever worked retail or any other customer-oriented service job knows this intrinsically.
The difficult part in customer service is translating what the customer thinks or says they want into what they're really asking for. Sometimes it's simple and direct; oftentimes though, it's not. And then there's the added problem of the sheer number of customers; it isn't a case of one-on-one customer service where a single answer will please a person, and the next person's problem is different.
Take PVE and PVP for example. Every new game that launches starts with a host of people saying that this one will be the great awaited PVP game. It never is (nor will it ever be), but the talk is always there. The PVE'ers think it will be the game that finally proves that PVP isn't needed at all. It never is (nor will it ever be), but the talk is there. Which should the developers listen to? For every 'veteran who has played every MMO since UO' (amazing how many of those people there are, too!) there is a casual player who has neither the time nor the inclination for a forced grouping game. For every person who wants a single-player extravaganza with AI companions, there's a longtime player who wants forced grouping. It's a never-ending cycle, and the voices typically cancel one another out. Each is sure they're the one who is right, and collectively they're all wrong. It's quite the paradox, really.
Originally posted by mmoguy43 Is it wrong to think you know how a game should be(differently) if you have no experience in making games? Yes, you are the ones to play them and can point out what you like or don't like. But how can you say you know their product better than they do ,enough to say _ is a flaw?
Because they have no idea what it's like to spend years of your life working on one project, trying to forcast what will work by the end because trends can change within a single year. We, the audience, see what the result is after all those years and immediatly put it through what we would have done with a time machine.
Everyone have their individual preferences. It's the majority who makes the decision though and the minority stay unheard. Maybe not always unheard but they have to listen to the majority first.
The temptation here is to play the analogy game, because there are practically an infinite number of examples where consumers evaluate a products' worth and make purchasing decisions without knowing what goes into making it. You don't necessarily have to know how to make X to know with near certainty that you will or will not like it, particularly if you have a long history of consuming X and similar products. Any game I walk into is not the first, tenth, or even hundredth game I've played in my life, going all the way back to the mid 80s.
As I see it, the question is more one of, "When does what the consumer wants become what is 'best' for a game?" Some people would say, "Always", but then what about when there are truly conflicting tastes? What about where it conflicts with critical resource expenditure elsewhere? What if it fundamentally changes the game? A lot of today's players that fall into the industry-apologist group would say, "Never. Games are art and the artist should be free to blah blah blah blah", but how did that work out for The Old Republic's original business and development schedule/model or FFXIV 1.0 or the other games on this site that could have been more than what they were? Did they not have some things worth experiencing if only other parts of the game had been "better"? The same goes for single player games too. There are undoubtedly games that would have been enjoyed much more widely if they had done some things differently. And there are of course games that surely would have done worse if they had caved to player demands too. It's not a cut and dry discussion IMO.
Likewise, don't make the mistake that a great many in the industry make of thinking that "making it" means you know everything and those that don't make it know nothing. There is plenty of overlap at the boundary. Making an indy game or being heavily involved in the modding scene isn't making a AAA title, for example, but it's not nothing either.
Originally posted by mmoguy43 Is it wrong to think you know how a game should be(differently) if you have no experience in making games? Yes, you are the ones to play them and can point out what you like or don't like. But how can you say you know their product better than they do ,enough to say _ is a flaw?
Happens all the time, very normal too. There are several reasons, but 3 main. I will also give you examples on what ignorant people would judge these types of people on. Because if some people are dishonest in their appreciation of a product, there are also people who judge all who are opinionated on the same values, we refer to them as "fanbois" on most gaming forums:
1) Most people who criticize products are the ones that know what they actually want.
Example:
Reality: A style has come across in 15 other games, all those games except one failed. Those still playing the first game aren't saying anything, those looking for something new are saying that that is not what they want. Result is that games like SWTOR fail.
What a fanboi would base his opinion on: Someone doesn't like losing and is complaining about games being too hard for him but too easy for others, thus bugs and OP classes. When he plays the "OP" class, he still sucks then quits. Now that is an insignificant opinion.
Example outside gaming:
Reality: A patron sits in front of a public computer and complains that the system is slow or that the interface is confusing. Result is that if it pisses him off, many silent people walk away and complain about how bad the service is there reducing business.
What a fanboi would base his opinion on: The patron thinks the program forcing him to pay for what he prints should be uninstalled and justifies his suggestion by calling the program slow and buggy.
2) People tend to want to be more than just a number, they want to feel in a relationship with the enterprise.
Example:
Reality: A customer likes it when he feels he gets something more for his money. So he asks for a form of reward system or something in return for his loyalty. To some, if the company asks for loyalty, they should give back in the form of "presents" and the likes. It could be just a monthly pet or a hint for a secret quest in most MMOs really.
What a fanboi would base his opinion on: Someone wants attention and demands special treatment, or else, he quits. (Can I have all your stuff, to prove you're serious)?
Example outside gaming:
Reality: A regular customer to a restaurant wants a card, or any reward system really, that after say 10 meals, he gets a free desert or entry because he always goes to that restaurant. Since they make a lot of money from him, they should give back a little something to say, thank you, please spend more!
What a fanboi would base his opinion on: A customer wants to get revenge on the other restaurant that delivered a pizza 5 minutes later than the "average delivery time" printed on their menu so he demands another place gives him a rebate so he can show them how better a company you are. ( Yes, I actually saw this happen, though it happened at a place where both restaurants belonged to the same guy. He told them to fuck off, not that politely either )
3) Those who demand what they paid for
Example:
Reality: A company promises a lot of things, but often, especially with MMOs, they don't seem to release the whole package on time as promised. We saw this with Age of Conan, if you remember that disaster. So it is only normal that those who buy the product ask that they are given what they paid for.
What a fanboi would base his opinion on: An idiot reads 3rd party news and thinks that a suggestion the author made on his blog was actually a promise from the company and keeps on spamming and demanding he is handed what he "paid for".
Example outside gaming:
Reality: Customer orders headphones and gets earbuds instead. He demands the company sends him the headphones he ordered. Wouldn't you demand to get what you paid for? In Ontario, Canada, if they mess up and send him earbuds a 2nd time for that order, the earbuds are his to keep, says the law. And yes, it does happen and they still have to give him his headphones. (The grass isn't all green though, if you say hi to someone, they can "feel harassed" and you can get jailed for it, says the Law.)
What a fanboi would base his opinion on: Customer buys a used product on Ebay and complains when what he receives is used. He then files a complaint about the seller. Yup, it happens, quite often too, though here a company would be forced to reimburse him because the law says so, unless its underwear or swimwear.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
Originally posted by mmoguy43 Is it wrong to think you know how a game should be(differently) if you have no experience in making games? Yes, you are the ones to play them and can point out what you like or don't like. But how can you say you know their product better than they do ,enough to say _ is a flaw?
very easy to answer.
gamers can look at a game without having <insert currency> signs in their eyes.
they can look at it without going" Now....how the f*!% can we make the most money from this thing?"
Is it wrong to think you know how a game should be(differently) if you have no experience in making games? Yes, you are the ones to play them and can point out what you like or don't like. But how can you say you know their product better than they do ,enough to say _ is a flaw?
Here is an experiment for you: List how long you have played MMOs for in the past and see if you notice a trend. Here! Ill go first.
Final Fantasy 11 - 6months
City of heroes - 6 months
Lineage 2 - 3 years
World of warcraft - 5 years
Aion - 1 year
Rift - 2 Months
Tera - 2 months
Swotor - 6 weeks
Guild wars 2 - 2 weeks
Final fantasy 14 - 3months
Neverwinter - 2 weeks (i even bought founders pack)
Notice the trend? All the newer stuff "Simplified" has a life span of weeks, and the more difficult the game is. The more time sinks such as raiding, and loot randomization, and loot sharing. Challenging content, the longer it took for me to get bored of the game.
I am not a game designer, i only know what is fun for me.
Removing raids are not fun for me.
Giving everyone their own personalized loot bags are not fun for me. (having to share, or deal with something you can use not dropping or yes even dealing with loot ninjas are all part of the experience)
Removing RNG from dungeons arent fun for me.( Everything i now reward tokens, there is no fear of not getting your full set of epic gear, because well, it cost 100 tokens, and you can get 10 tokens a day, so you know it will take you 10 days to get your full set)
Taking me by the end and telling me step by step how to defeat every encounter in a dungeon, or giving me giant red circles 5 to 10 seconds before hand warning me, or just making the content so goddamned faceroll easy that it doesnt require thought in the first place is not fun for me.
Giving me half a game, and then making me pay for the rest under the guise of being "Free to play" is not fun for me. Nickle and diming me for crafting materials, and enchant stones and bags... FUCKING BAGS and lets not forget banks slots. You end up spending 100 bucks the first month, more then youd spend the entire year meanwhile still have to smile and act as though the game is free to play.
So.. i am not a game designer, i am just a gamer. The devs are driving this genre like a bus, and like you guys i am just a passenger, and right now they are steering this bus towards a cliff. So now i guess my options are to sit quietly and hope they figured it out before they kill us all, or start back seat driving.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Is it wrong to think you know how a game should be(differently) if you have no experience in making games? Yes, you are the ones to play them and can point out what you like or don't like. But how can you say you know their product better than they do ,enough to say _ is a flaw?
Here is an experiment for you: List how long you have played MMOs for in the past and see if you notice a trend. Here! Ill go first.
Final Fantasy 11 - 6months
City of heroes - 6 months
Lineage 2 - 3 years
World of warcraft - 5 years
Aion - 1 year
Rift - 2 Months
Tera - 2 months
Swotor - 6 weeks
Guild wars 2 - 2 weeks
Final fantasy 14 - 3months
Neverwinter - 2 weeks (i even bought founders pack)
Notice the trend? All the newer stuff "Simplified" has a life span of weeks, and the more difficult the game is. The more time sinks such as raiding, and loot randomization, and loot sharing. Challenging content, the longer it took for me to get bored of the game.
I am not a game designer, i only know what is fun for me.
Removing raids are not fun for me.
Giving everyone their own personalized loot bags are not fun for me. (having to share, or deal with something you can use not dropping or yes even dealing with loot ninjas are all part of the experience)
Removing RNG from dungeons arent fun for me.( Everything i now reward tokens, there is no fear of not getting your full set of epic gear, because well, it cost 100 tokens, and you can get 10 tokens a day, so you know it will take you 10 days to get your full set)
Taking me by the end and telling me step by step how to defeat every encounter in a dungeon, or giving me giant red circles 5 to 10 seconds before hand warning me, or just making the content so goddamned faceroll easy that it doesnt require thought in the first place is not fun for me.
Giving me half a game, and then making me pay for the rest under the guise of being "Free to play" is not fun for me. Nickle and diming me for crafting materials, and enchant stones and bags... FUCKING BAGS and lets not forget banks slots. You end up spending 100 bucks the first month, more then youd spend the entire year meanwhile still have to smile and act as though the game is free to play.
So.. i am not a game designer, i am just a gamer. The devs are driving this genre like a bus, and like you guys i am just a passenger, and right now they are steering this bus towards a cliff. So now i guess my options are to sit quietly and hope they figured it out before they kill us all, or start back seat driving.
Cool! Here, I'll give it a go:
Final Fantasy 11 - none
City of Heroes - 2 days
Lineage 2 - 3 days
World of Warcraft - 20 minutes in beta
Aion - none
Rift - none
Tera - none
Swotor - 1 day
Guild Wars 2 - 2 months
Final Fantasy 14 - none
Neverwinter - none
Let me add some more:
Wurm Online - 20 minutes
Mortal Online - 1 day
Guild Wars 1 - 2 years
Eve Online - 2 years
Warhammer Online - 3 weeks
Vanguard - 2 weeks
Pirates of the Burning Sea - 1 month
DDO - 10 days
TSW - 6 hours
Atlantica Online - 5 days
Risk Your Life - 3 days in beta
Fall of Mankind - 1 day
Knight Online - 2 days
Black Prophecy - 1 hour
Planetside 1 - 2 hours
Planetside 2 - 5 hours
Fallen Earth - 2 days
Tabula Rasa - 1 day
...and loads of others I can't name right off the bat.
Any trend you see there? Maybe someone else would like to participate? -See if we can establish a trend then?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Is it wrong to think you know how a game should be(differently) if you have no experience in making games? Yes, you are the ones to play them and can point out what you like or don't like. But how can you say you know their product better than they do ,enough to say _ is a flaw?
Here is an experiment for you: List how long you have played MMOs for in the past and see if you notice a trend. Here! Ill go first.
Final Fantasy 11 - 6months
City of heroes - 6 months
Lineage 2 - 3 years
World of warcraft - 5 years
Aion - 1 year
Rift - 2 Months
Tera - 2 months
Swotor - 6 weeks
Guild wars 2 - 2 weeks
Final fantasy 14 - 3months
Neverwinter - 2 weeks (i even bought founders pack)
Notice the trend? All the newer stuff "Simplified" has a life span of weeks, and the more difficult the game is. The more time sinks such as raiding, and loot randomization, and loot sharing. Challenging content, the longer it took for me to get bored of the game.
I am not a game designer, i only know what is fun for me.
Removing raids are not fun for me.
Giving everyone their own personalized loot bags are not fun for me. (having to share, or deal with something you can use not dropping or yes even dealing with loot ninjas are all part of the experience)
Removing RNG from dungeons arent fun for me.( Everything i now reward tokens, there is no fear of not getting your full set of epic gear, because well, it cost 100 tokens, and you can get 10 tokens a day, so you know it will take you 10 days to get your full set)
Taking me by the end and telling me step by step how to defeat every encounter in a dungeon, or giving me giant red circles 5 to 10 seconds before hand warning me, or just making the content so goddamned faceroll easy that it doesnt require thought in the first place is not fun for me.
Giving me half a game, and then making me pay for the rest under the guise of being "Free to play" is not fun for me. Nickle and diming me for crafting materials, and enchant stones and bags... FUCKING BAGS and lets not forget banks slots. You end up spending 100 bucks the first month, more then youd spend the entire year meanwhile still have to smile and act as though the game is free to play.
So.. i am not a game designer, i am just a gamer. The devs are driving this genre like a bus, and like you guys i am just a passenger, and right now they are steering this bus towards a cliff. So now i guess my options are to sit quietly and hope they figured it out before they kill us all, or start back seat driving.
Cool! Here, I'll give it a go:
Final Fantasy 11 - none
City of Heroes - 2 days
Lineage 2 - 3 days
World of Warcraft - 20 minutes in beta
Aion - none
Rift - none
Tera - none
Swotor - 1 day
Guild Wars 2 - 2 months
Final Fantasy 14 - none
Neverwinter - none
Let me add some more:
Wurm Online - 20 minutes
Mortal Online - 1 day
Guild Wars 1 - 2 years
Eve Online - 2 years
Warhammer Online - 3 weeks
Vanguard - 2 weeks
Pirates of the Burning Sea - 1 month
DDO - 10 days
TSW - 6 hours
Atlantica Online - 5 days
Risk Your Life - 3 days in beta
Fall of Mankind - 1 day
Knight Online - 2 days
Black Prophecy - 1 hour
Planetside 1 - 2 hours
Planetside 2 - 5 hours
Fallen Earth - 2 days
Tabula Rasa - 1 day
...and loads of others I can't name right off the bat.
Any trend you see there? Maybe someone else would like to participate? -See if we can establish a trend then?
From your list it seems like you dont like any MMOs...
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
People think that because they played some previous game for like 5+ years, they know better than a professional how to code the next game, even though they never passed the "copy examples from "Java for dummies" stage" themself.
Is it really about the coding though? I mean, I've rarely seen people debate how a java or c++ class was written as opposed to debating the implementation of a mechanic in a game. The conversations seem more about the logic of various systems, regardless of language they are written in, and logic discussions can certainly be carried out by more then just the developers.
Naturally, this is not to dismiss the association between concept and code. But really, what is there to discuss in these forums if not opinions on various implementations and ideas? Isn't that why many of us are here (in the forums) or am I completely off in that assumption?
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
It's simple actually... the people that determine a success or failure of a product are the customers, not the creators. It's not important how many people on the development team love the game. It's important how many paying customers do.
It's simple actually... the people that determine a success or failure of a product are the customers, not the creators. It's not important how many people on the development team love the game. It's important how many paying customers do.
This sums it up quite nicely.
I agree if we were trying to make a completely different point instead of the one the OP asked and people are discussing.
Because in most cases, the games are not developed by the developers, but rather the suits that hold all of the money. Decisions are quite often made based on potential profits, and less based on innovative system features.
So in some cases, the gamers themselves actually do know what's best for a game. I feel bad for most MMO gamers out there. Most of them want a great game and they are given a game that can turn the biggest pofit, safely. Gamers don't care about risk. It's not their money.
The suits that hold all of the money aren't making any money if they don't develop games for gamers. I think the biggest reason that new games seem to be one copy after another is being most gamers are easily duped by marketing departments into buying products that they don't really want. How many people on this board bought Guild Wars 2 just because of the hype machine and now can't stand the game? There's something to be said for having patience and waiting to read reviews from actual gamers before buying into a game because it seems to be the next cool thing based upon a bunch of trailers.
I can name at least 20 games that have been near copies of WoW since WoW was released. Very for innovative ideas have been had in the AAA market, and that's a fact. Games are funded by people who have seen the success of WoW, and they don't want developers to stray too far away from that path. In turn, a lot of really cool ideas have been refused based specifically on the fact that they stray too far away from WoW's core concepts. Many games have been ruined entirely on this. Many innovative features buried. Why is it that you think most Indie developers try and overreach with outlandish features and ideas and AAA developers only make slight tweaks to 'tried and true' systems? It's as plain as day. Think Tabula Rasa. Richard Garriott had a lot of ideas, vastly different from what was actually put into the game. Suits played hardball and won. The game died a very quick death. It isn't always this way, but I know a lot of you can come up with other great examples of how development is influenced by money. Whether that's core concepts alone or simply pushing a product out too early.
most cases game designers are not gamers . they just have paper from some fancy school nowadays can provide and then they are hired to design game wich allmost everytime fails.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Originally posted by mmoguy43 Is it wrong to think you know how a game should be(differently) if you have no experience in making games? Yes, you are the ones to play them and can point out what you like or don't like. But how can you say you know their product better than they do ,enough to say _ is a flaw?
Who is saying they know best ?
Some are saying they don't like some of the decisions the Everquest developers made
The developers job is to put together a product that will make them money
Some have sent the develpers a message saying they won't spend their money on this concept
It is the Everquest decision makers job to develop their product and present it to their target market for judgment.
The devs can accept or reject the potential consumers judgement.
Originally posted by uplink4242 I think each person knows what's best for himself, not for the overal game (even if many like to assume they do). However, as a gamer it's not my job to care about any of that so I'll continue to play what I like instead.
not at all!
the average, stupid, gamer would bury himself in rares via any mechanic he gets his hands on
people have NO IDEA what they want or what they should want from a game. i personally think that gaming was better before forums or before the internet emerged, because devs wouldnt waste their day reading the bullshit that gamers write all day ...
Comments
I just wish more developers stuck to their vision rather than folding to the suits or the customers. A developer that says HEY, HERE IS OUR GAME, you are either gonna like it or not, but it isn't changing till when or if we decide to change it.
I think in all honesty everything would be alot better if more developers took this stance, though there are too many factors that make it where they can't either financially or otherwise. Core fanbase always decides what they like, but more often than not the game they started playing and loved at first turns into something they detest and something completely different after X amount of people have swayed the dev teams to do so, then usually failure follows in general as the game doesn't even have a core fanbase anymore.
The customer is not always right. In fact, more often than not the customer is a blithering idiot. Almost anyone who has ever worked retail or any other customer-oriented service job knows this intrinsically.
The difficult part in customer service is translating what the customer thinks or says they want into what they're really asking for. Sometimes it's simple and direct; oftentimes though, it's not. And then there's the added problem of the sheer number of customers; it isn't a case of one-on-one customer service where a single answer will please a person, and the next person's problem is different.
Take PVE and PVP for example. Every new game that launches starts with a host of people saying that this one will be the great awaited PVP game. It never is (nor will it ever be), but the talk is always there. The PVE'ers think it will be the game that finally proves that PVP isn't needed at all. It never is (nor will it ever be), but the talk is there. Which should the developers listen to? For every 'veteran who has played every MMO since UO' (amazing how many of those people there are, too!) there is a casual player who has neither the time nor the inclination for a forced grouping game. For every person who wants a single-player extravaganza with AI companions, there's a longtime player who wants forced grouping. It's a never-ending cycle, and the voices typically cancel one another out. Each is sure they're the one who is right, and collectively they're all wrong. It's quite the paradox, really.
Development ask for feedback from their communities.
Shit goes sideways when members of those communities take it upon themselves to police that feedback.
Because they have no idea what it's like to spend years of your life working on one project, trying to forcast what will work by the end because trends can change within a single year. We, the audience, see what the result is after all those years and immediatly put it through what we would have done with a time machine.
Why do gamers think they know "what is best" for a game more than it's creators?
Because they want something new & inventive.....
Why do CREATORS think they know "what is best" for a game more than it's GAMERS?
Because they believe they are creating something new & inventive.....
Aloha Mr Hand !
Same thing I thought when I saw the thread title. Too many armchair developers on the web who think they speak for the world.
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
The temptation here is to play the analogy game, because there are practically an infinite number of examples where consumers evaluate a products' worth and make purchasing decisions without knowing what goes into making it. You don't necessarily have to know how to make X to know with near certainty that you will or will not like it, particularly if you have a long history of consuming X and similar products. Any game I walk into is not the first, tenth, or even hundredth game I've played in my life, going all the way back to the mid 80s.
As I see it, the question is more one of, "When does what the consumer wants become what is 'best' for a game?" Some people would say, "Always", but then what about when there are truly conflicting tastes? What about where it conflicts with critical resource expenditure elsewhere? What if it fundamentally changes the game? A lot of today's players that fall into the industry-apologist group would say, "Never. Games are art and the artist should be free to blah blah blah blah", but how did that work out for The Old Republic's original business and development schedule/model or FFXIV 1.0 or the other games on this site that could have been more than what they were? Did they not have some things worth experiencing if only other parts of the game had been "better"? The same goes for single player games too. There are undoubtedly games that would have been enjoyed much more widely if they had done some things differently. And there are of course games that surely would have done worse if they had caved to player demands too. It's not a cut and dry discussion IMO.
Likewise, don't make the mistake that a great many in the industry make of thinking that "making it" means you know everything and those that don't make it know nothing. There is plenty of overlap at the boundary. Making an indy game or being heavily involved in the modding scene isn't making a AAA title, for example, but it's not nothing either.
Happens all the time, very normal too. There are several reasons, but 3 main. I will also give you examples on what ignorant people would judge these types of people on. Because if some people are dishonest in their appreciation of a product, there are also people who judge all who are opinionated on the same values, we refer to them as "fanbois" on most gaming forums:
1) Most people who criticize products are the ones that know what they actually want.
Example:
Reality: A style has come across in 15 other games, all those games except one failed. Those still playing the first game aren't saying anything, those looking for something new are saying that that is not what they want. Result is that games like SWTOR fail.
What a fanboi would base his opinion on: Someone doesn't like losing and is complaining about games being too hard for him but too easy for others, thus bugs and OP classes. When he plays the "OP" class, he still sucks then quits. Now that is an insignificant opinion.
Example outside gaming:
Reality: A patron sits in front of a public computer and complains that the system is slow or that the interface is confusing. Result is that if it pisses him off, many silent people walk away and complain about how bad the service is there reducing business.
What a fanboi would base his opinion on: The patron thinks the program forcing him to pay for what he prints should be uninstalled and justifies his suggestion by calling the program slow and buggy.
2) People tend to want to be more than just a number, they want to feel in a relationship with the enterprise.
Example:
Reality: A customer likes it when he feels he gets something more for his money. So he asks for a form of reward system or something in return for his loyalty. To some, if the company asks for loyalty, they should give back in the form of "presents" and the likes. It could be just a monthly pet or a hint for a secret quest in most MMOs really.
What a fanboi would base his opinion on: Someone wants attention and demands special treatment, or else, he quits. (Can I have all your stuff, to prove you're serious)?
Example outside gaming:
Reality: A regular customer to a restaurant wants a card, or any reward system really, that after say 10 meals, he gets a free desert or entry because he always goes to that restaurant. Since they make a lot of money from him, they should give back a little something to say, thank you, please spend more!
What a fanboi would base his opinion on: A customer wants to get revenge on the other restaurant that delivered a pizza 5 minutes later than the "average delivery time" printed on their menu so he demands another place gives him a rebate so he can show them how better a company you are. ( Yes, I actually saw this happen, though it happened at a place where both restaurants belonged to the same guy. He told them to fuck off, not that politely either )
3) Those who demand what they paid for
Example:
Reality: A company promises a lot of things, but often, especially with MMOs, they don't seem to release the whole package on time as promised. We saw this with Age of Conan, if you remember that disaster. So it is only normal that those who buy the product ask that they are given what they paid for.
What a fanboi would base his opinion on: An idiot reads 3rd party news and thinks that a suggestion the author made on his blog was actually a promise from the company and keeps on spamming and demanding he is handed what he "paid for".
Example outside gaming:
Reality: Customer orders headphones and gets earbuds instead. He demands the company sends him the headphones he ordered. Wouldn't you demand to get what you paid for? In Ontario, Canada, if they mess up and send him earbuds a 2nd time for that order, the earbuds are his to keep, says the law. And yes, it does happen and they still have to give him his headphones. (The grass isn't all green though, if you say hi to someone, they can "feel harassed" and you can get jailed for it, says the Law.)
What a fanboi would base his opinion on: Customer buys a used product on Ebay and complains when what he receives is used. He then files a complaint about the seller. Yup, it happens, quite often too, though here a company would be forced to reimburse him because the law says so, unless its underwear or swimwear.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
very easy to answer.
gamers can look at a game without having <insert currency> signs in their eyes.
they can look at it without going" Now....how the f*!% can we make the most money from this thing?"
a developer/publisher do not have that luxury.
Here is an experiment for you: List how long you have played MMOs for in the past and see if you notice a trend. Here! Ill go first.
Final Fantasy 11 - 6months
City of heroes - 6 months
Lineage 2 - 3 years
World of warcraft - 5 years
Aion - 1 year
Rift - 2 Months
Tera - 2 months
Swotor - 6 weeks
Guild wars 2 - 2 weeks
Final fantasy 14 - 3months
Neverwinter - 2 weeks (i even bought founders pack)
Notice the trend? All the newer stuff "Simplified" has a life span of weeks, and the more difficult the game is. The more time sinks such as raiding, and loot randomization, and loot sharing. Challenging content, the longer it took for me to get bored of the game.
I am not a game designer, i only know what is fun for me.
So.. i am not a game designer, i am just a gamer. The devs are driving this genre like a bus, and like you guys i am just a passenger, and right now they are steering this bus towards a cliff. So now i guess my options are to sit quietly and hope they figured it out before they kill us all, or start back seat driving.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Cool! Here, I'll give it a go:
Any trend you see there? Maybe someone else would like to participate? -See if we can establish a trend then?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
From your list it seems like you dont like any MMOs...
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Is it really about the coding though? I mean, I've rarely seen people debate how a java or c++ class was written as opposed to debating the implementation of a mechanic in a game. The conversations seem more about the logic of various systems, regardless of language they are written in, and logic discussions can certainly be carried out by more then just the developers.
Naturally, this is not to dismiss the association between concept and code. But really, what is there to discuss in these forums if not opinions on various implementations and ideas? Isn't that why many of us are here (in the forums) or am I completely off in that assumption?
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
This sums it up quite nicely.
I agree if we were trying to make a completely different point instead of the one the OP asked and people are discussing.
I can name at least 20 games that have been near copies of WoW since WoW was released. Very for innovative ideas have been had in the AAA market, and that's a fact. Games are funded by people who have seen the success of WoW, and they don't want developers to stray too far away from that path. In turn, a lot of really cool ideas have been refused based specifically on the fact that they stray too far away from WoW's core concepts. Many games have been ruined entirely on this. Many innovative features buried. Why is it that you think most Indie developers try and overreach with outlandish features and ideas and AAA developers only make slight tweaks to 'tried and true' systems? It's as plain as day. Think Tabula Rasa. Richard Garriott had a lot of ideas, vastly different from what was actually put into the game. Suits played hardball and won. The game died a very quick death. It isn't always this way, but I know a lot of you can come up with other great examples of how development is influenced by money. Whether that's core concepts alone or simply pushing a product out too early.
It's safe to copy WoW. That's the point.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Who is saying they know best ?
Some are saying they don't like some of the decisions the Everquest developers made
The developers job is to put together a product that will make them money
Some have sent the develpers a message saying they won't spend their money on this concept
It is the Everquest decision makers job to develop their product and present it to their target market for judgment.
The devs can accept or reject the potential consumers judgement.
not at all!
the average, stupid, gamer would bury himself in rares via any mechanic he gets his hands on
people have NO IDEA what they want or what they should want from a game. i personally think that gaming was better before forums or before the internet emerged, because devs wouldnt waste their day reading the bullshit that gamers write all day ...