Originally posted by ChloroCat I think people need to take a deep breath. In fact about a 2-3 year deep breath. How do people come to all these conclusions ? I watched the presentation and didn't really have any real questions answered. People are saying it will have this and that and this but not that. How did you people come up with these ideas ? They have just now started to make a physical game. Stop jumping to wacky conclusions. All I got that I really like is multi class and a world that will remember it's players actions. So maybe SK/Defiler will be nice and Wiz/Pally and so on. To me though that doesn't mean the Trinity is dead..just going to evolve a little. For example the Sk/Defiler build would not be a good healer as say Defiler/SK. Just a thought maybe wrong. But let's give SOE another year or so and maybe get some official notes..before jumping off the bridge about the Trinity.
IMO I think MMO's are moving towards giving the players the ability to "create" on their own to mold themselves to however they want to be, class-wise, functionality-wise. I'm seeing games allowing characters to be more flexible, to try to be a paladin or a mage knight of some kind or a melee combat mage etc. Trying to cover as many archetypes with a much more flexible system rather than rigidly control the class system and pidgeon holing each class into specific roles.
After reading through the classes panel, its confirmed that the holy trinity is out. They said there WILL be healing- and support- centric classes and roles but that the game does not necessarily need them nor is built to require the trinity.
It is very very much GW2 with multi-classing. Even each class only has a small handful of abilities which was confirmed. They said there are more classes in the game than individual abilities.
Sounds effing horrible and im out. This coming from a person who was more than accepting of the new stylized graphics.
This is just too NOT everquest. In any way. They should have created a brand new mmo franchise and kept making everquest 3. What a joke. I require holding certain weapons to get certain abilites? Im done.
Wow wtf!?!? Really they said this?! I am starting to get skeptical of this as well. No trinity == no good large scale group PvE.
I will only say this...what is old now will be new 5-10 years from now.
That is to say, with all these new MMO's being created with no trinity and limited skills on the toolbar (GW2, EQnext, Neverwinter). It stands to reason that sometime in the future a game will come out and create a true old school experience.
Meaning Trinity, Decent number of skills, and difficulty on par that grouping is at least encouraged. THAT will be what will be considered a new concept soon if all these new games keep coming out with the same motif and are unable to do it well (still wait and see on EQnext)
The trinity is old, outdated and just plain dumb. Combat is and should be chaotic, having the most heavily armored character standing out front hurling insults while other beat on the mob was the dumbest thing ever put into a game. It should die any never come back. It simplifies combat too much. It allows lazy devs and lazy players to get by. As a player, you should pay attention to what's going on and not worry about hitting the taunts in the correct order, DPSing, or just healing the tank.
Not having the trinity was the only thing I did like about GW2. I hope EQN keeps it out. They can always find ways to improve upon what has been done though. The trinity is played out though. Time to have games that implement new ideas.
I dislike everything in your post. Especially your snarky "lazy developers and lazy players" comment. I hated the GW2 combat and had hoped that experiment was deemed a failure and nobody would be dumb enough to copy it.
I guess zerg/rush fights are here to stay now.
You know as extreme as Latronus's might sound it totally makes sense. Especially the lazy dev comment when game devs constantly copy others rather than take risks to develop something different and think outside the box. With your thinking Shadow we will end up playing the same crap for another 10 years.
My favorite thing in non-trinity combat is when the mob boss turns to look at you cause it's pissed at you and heads your way for dropping some dps on it. So a tank holding a mob while other smack down dps does seem dumb in a sense.
If they can make it not be a zerg fest, then I'll be a happy camper. I just really grew tired of the GW2 combat quickly and hoped to not see it again.
If EQN wants to have good group combat with no Trinity they need to stop looking at GW2 and think about how to get the system working on their own. Seems they figured that out for destructability - why not here.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
In my honest opinion which will mean nothing to you all lol, but I think the holy trinity was quite a hassle when you lackedhealers or tanks. I feel as though FFXIV ARR is doing a good job to allow everyone to be all classes if they choose so which can diminish that worry and the party finder at least for the 4 man raids will speed the process of partying tremendously. Also for those solo players missing skills from the healer class with a dps class or tank class can lead to some solo play if you choose to do so. or be able to survive more in raids. So trying to find a party in the trinity format in 2013 is still plausible. With that being said this is why I believe if EQNext is going for a multi class system in a way they can still incorporate the trinity. It will be more on a hybrid basis that many people have tried in old games but failed to do because most MMOs were dedicated to one class only. For instance One may choose a tankish class in EQNext and there other class as a DPS long range class. Pretty much he can keep his distance and hold aggro while fighting, and there could be some other combinations to but no combination will be a dedicated one unless you get two classes design for healing, tanking, or support only. Which I think may be the case for certain situations for a game like this. I definitely would like to try the game at least because the concept could be very good if the trinity is still in EQNext even if it is not a dedicated roles for certain class mixes. Definitely excited about EQNext and FFXIV for enhancing or evolving the trinity system.
Speculations and rumors for the lose....I will wait for official word about holy trinity or going back to the holy 4 adding back CC...or whether role specialization will be allowed alongside hybrid play. Which seems likely as in the ten ton hammer interview the dev clearly stated purist classes would definately be a playable option
Originally posted by DarkVergil This is not good, this basicly killed guild wars 2 for me.
key word there. For you.
i personally love it that SOE is giving up the trinity as well. If more companies put their focus on less trinity based mechanics, the system will improve big time. Im tired of every game looking different visually only and play exactly the same with their same trinity boring stuff. Now i now ill have a blast in EQN, personally, just like i do in GW2.... if its true there wont be trinity. Ill still play it regardless.
Originally posted by MMOExposed Wow wtf!?!? Really they said this?! I am starting to get skeptical of this as well. No trinity == no good large scale group PvE.
Wow....really? Good large scale group PvE constitutes 30 players beating on one or two giant monsters that only need 1 to 2 (sometimes 3! Oooooo) people to tank? Where healing only required you to pay attention to 2 targets? Where the monsters can't even figure out that the tanks are the worst characters to even attack in the first place? Where I don't even get to watch the fight because I'm staring at health bars? Honestly the funnest part of a raid as a healer to me always when the sh*t hit the fan. That's the only time you can actually show off your ability to overcome any kind of challenge, otherwise its a gear stacking game.
Yes, this is exactly what I was looking for when I'm thinking "good large scale PvE" -_- Standing there hitting the same rotations or following a priorities checklist of cooldowns. Lol, the idea is laughable.
Why does it seem like this game just becomes more like GW2 by the hour? I'm not sure why some developers are doing things differently just for the sake of being DIFFERENT, regardless of what has worked in the past. The trinity system works, it always has worked, why change it now? So you don't like to wait hours for a healer? Well I think you're exaggerating, but if you're not, it's because most of the time the healing/tank/support roles are boring and offer little incentive, not that there is anything wrong with these roles or that people don't like them.
Personally, the lack of a trinity is a HUGE deal breaker for me, as I love playing dedicated healers and tanks. I like playing dps at times too, but all classes as dps sucks and is boring as shit. Maybe that's okay for people who only like to play dps, but not for me.
I think I'm going to pass on this GW2 clone until I see some better news.
Originally posted by DarkVergil This is not good, this basicly killed guild wars 2 for me.
key word there. For you.
i personally love it that SOE is giving up the trinity as well. If more companies put their focus on less trinity based mechanics, the system will improve big time. Im tired of every game looking different visually only and play exactly the same with their same trinity boring stuff. Now i now ill have a blast in EQN, personally, just like i do in GW2.... if its true there wont be trinity. Ill still play it regardless.
again most trinity issues could be resolved by making healers and support classes more interesting and fun to play, so there is not such a shortage. Instead we have to gut the trinity and create zerg gameplay? Thats original.
They said there WILL be healing- and support- centric classes and roles but that the game does not necessarily need them nor is built to require the trinity.
I hope their words mean that there is content that doesn't require it, but also content that does.
I get the impression that EQN was scrapped originally because devs believed that GW2 would be the game to destroy WoW and they wanted to make sure they were more similar than dissimilar to GW2.
In addition to not minding the art design, I love the create / destroy abilities. But stuff being revealed is what bored me to tears in GW2. EQN announced that "raids" can be scaled down to a whopping 2 persons.. 'ho boy.
This would have make a good console game, EverQuest Journies or something .. but as a successor to the original smash hit EQ, uhhh ...
I think when they originally conceived EQN they did have thoughts of going back to the ways EQ1 came about....Then a suit most likely stepped in and said "hey I notice that GW2 has sold alot of copies and Minecraft has several million players, how about we make a game like those 2?".....The thing about SOE is they are always about how to make the most money, not how to make the best game.....Anyone that has played any of their games for any length of time knows this and probably had a good idea that EQN is going to suck.
In addition, one of the devs is now calling the "Holy Trinity" a "super ambiguous phrase". Huh? Who doesn't know what MMO players mean by the Holy Trinity. Apparently this is their response - to try to redefine the term so they don't have to flat out admit they don't have it. I'm a saaaad panda about this.
I play a tank in every MMO I play, it may be a crutch but it's what I truly enjoy. I usually only play a tank class and will roll an alt to play around on when I get a little bored. This is a major let down. I need to win a lotto and create the proper MMO that all us old vets desire.
Originally posted by grimjakk With decent AI, the trinity is dead anyway. Ask anyone who's played a healer on a PvP server.
Uhmmmmm not really .... why do you think people are fiending for FFXIV... because it brings back the old school trinity based, team-centric, camaraderie that is so lost in todays day of MMO. it may be dead to Action MMO enthusiasts, but to people like me who actually enjoy the trinity and what it offers, EQN is the thing that's dead... my opinion ofcourse ..
Yeah, I was pretty pumped for this until I heard the world multi-classing and this is why I have not been playing MMO's lately. Really dissapointing but I'm still going to give it a try anyway.
Comments
Well if its on reddit. I dont buy this for a second.
IMO I think MMO's are moving towards giving the players the ability to "create" on their own to mold themselves to however they want to be, class-wise, functionality-wise. I'm seeing games allowing characters to be more flexible, to try to be a paladin or a mage knight of some kind or a melee combat mage etc. Trying to cover as many archetypes with a much more flexible system rather than rigidly control the class system and pidgeon holing each class into specific roles.
Wow wtf!?!? Really they said this?! I am starting to get skeptical of this as well. No trinity == no good large scale group PvE.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I will only say this...what is old now will be new 5-10 years from now.
That is to say, with all these new MMO's being created with no trinity and limited skills on the toolbar (GW2, EQnext, Neverwinter). It stands to reason that sometime in the future a game will come out and create a true old school experience.
Meaning Trinity, Decent number of skills, and difficulty on par that grouping is at least encouraged. THAT will be what will be considered a new concept soon if all these new games keep coming out with the same motif and are unable to do it well (still wait and see on EQnext)
If they can make it not be a zerg fest, then I'll be a happy camper. I just really grew tired of the GW2 combat quickly and hoped to not see it again.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
OMG WE ARE DOOMED!!!!
Lol, Nah we will be fine you people just calm down.
Trinity only worked with dumbass ai mobs.
edit- smart mobs will cut you right in your trinity.
Life IS Feudal
In my honest opinion which will mean nothing to you all lol, but I think the holy trinity was quite a hassle when you lackedhealers or tanks. I feel as though FFXIV ARR is doing a good job to allow everyone to be all classes if they choose so which can diminish that worry and the party finder at least for the 4 man raids will speed the process of partying tremendously. Also for those solo players missing skills from the healer class with a dps class or tank class can lead to some solo play if you choose to do so. or be able to survive more in raids. So trying to find a party in the trinity format in 2013 is still plausible. With that being said this is why I believe if EQNext is going for a multi class system in a way they can still incorporate the trinity. It will be more on a hybrid basis that many people have tried in old games but failed to do because most MMOs were dedicated to one class only. For instance One may choose a tankish class in EQNext and there other class as a DPS long range class. Pretty much he can keep his distance and hold aggro while fighting, and there could be some other combinations to but no combination will be a dedicated one unless you get two classes design for healing, tanking, or support only. Which I think may be the case for certain situations for a game like this. I definitely would like to try the game at least because the concept could be very good if the trinity is still in EQNext even if it is not a dedicated roles for certain class mixes. Definitely excited about EQNext and FFXIV for enhancing or evolving the trinity system.
Speculations and rumors for the lose....I will wait for official word about holy trinity or going back to the holy 4 adding back CC...or whether role specialization will be allowed alongside hybrid play. Which seems likely as in the ten ton hammer interview the dev clearly stated purist classes would definately be a playable option
key word there. For you.
i personally love it that SOE is giving up the trinity as well. If more companies put their focus on less trinity based mechanics, the system will improve big time. Im tired of every game looking different visually only and play exactly the same with their same trinity boring stuff. Now i now ill have a blast in EQN, personally, just like i do in GW2.... if its true there wont be trinity. Ill still play it regardless.
Wow....really? Good large scale group PvE constitutes 30 players beating on one or two giant monsters that only need 1 to 2 (sometimes 3! Oooooo) people to tank? Where healing only required you to pay attention to 2 targets? Where the monsters can't even figure out that the tanks are the worst characters to even attack in the first place? Where I don't even get to watch the fight because I'm staring at health bars? Honestly the funnest part of a raid as a healer to me always when the sh*t hit the fan. That's the only time you can actually show off your ability to overcome any kind of challenge, otherwise its a gear stacking game.
Yes, this is exactly what I was looking for when I'm thinking "good large scale PvE" -_- Standing there hitting the same rotations or following a priorities checklist of cooldowns. Lol, the idea is laughable.
Why does it seem like this game just becomes more like GW2 by the hour? I'm not sure why some developers are doing things differently just for the sake of being DIFFERENT, regardless of what has worked in the past. The trinity system works, it always has worked, why change it now? So you don't like to wait hours for a healer? Well I think you're exaggerating, but if you're not, it's because most of the time the healing/tank/support roles are boring and offer little incentive, not that there is anything wrong with these roles or that people don't like them.
Personally, the lack of a trinity is a HUGE deal breaker for me, as I love playing dedicated healers and tanks. I like playing dps at times too, but all classes as dps sucks and is boring as shit. Maybe that's okay for people who only like to play dps, but not for me.
I think I'm going to pass on this GW2 clone until I see some better news.
No.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
It requires to reach out to other people and socialise with them.
A new concept to new MMO players I'm sure.
I hope their words mean that there is content that doesn't require it, but also content that does.
I think when they originally conceived EQN they did have thoughts of going back to the ways EQ1 came about....Then a suit most likely stepped in and said "hey I notice that GW2 has sold alot of copies and Minecraft has several million players, how about we make a game like those 2?".....The thing about SOE is they are always about how to make the most money, not how to make the best game.....Anyone that has played any of their games for any length of time knows this and probably had a good idea that EQN is going to suck.
Everquest 1 Holy Trinity wasn't tank/healer/dps.
Uhmmmmm not really .... why do you think people are fiending for FFXIV... because it brings back the old school trinity based, team-centric, camaraderie that is so lost in todays day of MMO. it may be dead to Action MMO enthusiasts, but to people like me who actually enjoy the trinity and what it offers, EQN is the thing that's dead... my opinion ofcourse ..
Going to QFT because people keep replying without doing a little research.