Originally posted by asdar EQ wasn't a sandbox, but it certainly wasn't theme park. You might find some low level trash mobs outside the starting city, but take one step in the wrong direction and you were in way over your head, and we didn't have any idea if the way we were going was the wrong direction.There were no flashing lights pointing out the next quest, I didn't do any quests on my first character except to go to my trainer at level 1. There was certainly nothing that pointed out where the 2nd zone was.
"EQ wasn't a sandbox, but it certainly wasn't theme park"
exactly and that's the problem here, the wow generation of gamers think every MMO has to, and can be made to fit into some tiny little box that says "themepark" or "sandbox." EQ was an immersive, massive, online RPG, that was challenging, social, existed in a huge world that felt alive, was filled with players running around out in the world (not sitting in town waiting for a LFG tool to pop) and was incredibly fun.
Originally posted by asdar EQ wasn't a sandbox, but it certainly wasn't theme park. You might find some low level trash mobs outside the starting city, but take one step in the wrong direction and you were in way over your head, and we didn't have any idea if the way we were going was the wrong direction.
There were no flashing lights pointing out the next quest, I didn't do any quests on my first character except to go to my trainer at level 1. There was certainly nothing that pointed out where the 2nd zone was.
"EQ wasn't a sandbox, but it certainly wasn't theme park"
exactly and that's the problem here, the wow generation of gamers think every MMO has to, and can be made to fit into some tiny little box that says "themepark" or "sandbox." EQ was an immersive, massive, online RPG, that was challenging, social, existed in a huge world that felt alive, was filled with players running around out in the world (not sitting in town waiting for a LFG tool to pop) and was incredibly fun.
not a themepark. not a sandbox. period.
First generation of games I just consider MMORPGs. They all offer similar things, mainly a big open world to explore and adventure in, but a bit different at the same time. WoW was the first actual themepark MMO, as evidenced by the prelaunch interview with the lead dev that's been linked here many times before. Anyone who says WoW copied EQ doesn't have a clue. They went away from EQ, taking the complaints people quitting had, and made their game from that. The implementation of quest hub gameplay, for instance, was the result of people complaining from EQ that quests that you worked hard and long for did not give adequate exp for their completion. One of the biggest complaints at the time was that quests did not give enough reward. With that success became the themepark generation. Themepark has a pretty specific definition. Everything else is somewhere in the middle of the slider.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others... Currently Playing: GW2
Originally posted by Trudge34 So, how did you get led around to each zone stiler? Would love to hear this. Must have missed that portion of it when I played back in 2000.
What do you mean how? The zones in EQ, just like most any other themepark mmo, are built for specific level ranges.
You go there, you did the quests you could, then you moved on to higher level zones.
No, you never played it. If you were doing quests they often spanned multiple zones. Sometimes you were on a "quest" to get a piece of gear from a dungeon, but no one gave it to you heard about some magical weapon, asked around about where it came from, and then chose to do it yourself.
I love the "I played WoW, so I know everything about MMO's" generation. They're just so smart.
I'll have to agree that EQ1 wasn't really a theme park. I started out in Kelethin. I found my first mob by falling out of the damn city and dying within the first few minutes, and then spending 15 minutes trying to figure out how to get back into the city. There was nothing telling me to go to Crushbone next. I just wandered around the area till I saw stronger mobs. There wasn't even a map to keep track of anything. You usually found out about other zones just through chatting.
A theme park is one that takes you on "rails" down the path the designers have chosen for you.
WOW and SWTOR are games that were on rails (the latter more than the former). You pretty much followed the quests that were given to you and then moved on the next hub of quest givers. There was no, oh, let's just go to random dungeon here and do this if you wanted to move quickly through content.
EQ1 was most definitely not a theme park MMO. It also was not a sandbox.
EQ is what STARTED the entire "THemepark" mmo, so I don't know what you're talking about.
The area's were designed for specific levels and you were led through it.
IT was nothing like UO's world (Sandbox).
Ugh. No. Just no. EQ is not what started the themepark MMO. EQ2 and WoW did that.
You're right, it was nothing like UO's sandbox world. UO was truly a sandbox. EQ1 was just an MMORPG.
Originally posted by Trudge34 So, how did you get led around to each zone stiler? Would love to hear this. Must have missed that portion of it when I played back in 2000.
What do you mean how? The zones in EQ, just like most any other themepark mmo, are built for specific level ranges.
You go there, you did the quests you could, then you moved on to higher level zones.
What?? Nobody went to zones in EQ1 for the quests. They went there to hit camps. 99.9% of the mobs you killed in EQ1 had nothing to do with a quest. You didn't play EQ1 did you?
You people and your titles you have to give games. Just STFU and move on!! EQ was NONE OF THE ABOVE!! It was a founding stone. One of the first.
Now we have to see soooooo many morons label it as if it can be. Get over yourselves and say what you want in an MMO. Not your weak minded version of what was. If there ever was an MMO "sandbox" it was EQ back then. YOu knew there was this huge world but never knew how big. But you wanted to find out.
Now...days or even hours after launch and you know how big the world is.
You want a sandbox? Stop asking how big? Stop wondering and play...idiots...
Originally posted by Trudge34 Yeah but you said they led you there. Don't dodge that part of the question. How did they lead you there?
Originally posted by asdar
EQ wasn't a sandbox, but it certainly wasn't theme park. You might find some low level trash mobs outside the starting city, but take one step in the wrong direction and you were in way over your head, and we didn't have any idea if the way we were going was the wrong direction.
There were no flashing lights pointing out the next quest, I didn't do any quests on my first character except to go to my trainer at level 1. There was certainly nothing that pointed out where the 2nd zone was.
Originally posted by Tyvolus
exactly and that's the problem here, the wow generation of gamers think every MMO has to, and can be made to fit into some tiny little box that says "themepark" or "sandbox." EQ was an immersive, massive, online RPG, that was challenging, social, existed in a huge world that felt alive, was filled with players running around out in the world (not sitting in town waiting for a LFG tool to pop) and was incredibly fun.
not a themepark. not a sandbox. period.
EQ was a themepark, almost any mmo site and people familiar with MMO's in general refer to it as a Themepark mmo, in fact THE themepark mmo that started that "Trend" of the themeparks (as games after EQ borrowed heavily from it's design).
Was it a HARDER themepark? Of course.
There was no minimap with glowy trails telling you to go "here" for this or that, but the design of the world led you toward specific area's based on your level range. You did this area, then you went over to this one, you did this dungeon, then outlevel'd it and went to this one.
It wasn't nearly as easy as WoW, but that does NOT mean it was somehow not a themepark.
Originally posted by grimfall
Originally posted by Stiler
Originally posted by Trudge34 So, how did you get led around to each zone stiler? Would love to hear this. Must have missed that portion of it when I played back in 2000.
What do you mean how? The zones in EQ, just like most any other themepark mmo, are built for specific level ranges.
You go there, you did the quests you could, then you moved on to higher level zones.
No, you never played it. If you were doing quests they often spanned multiple zones. Sometimes you were on a "quest" to get a piece of gear from a dungeon, but no one gave it to you heard about some magical weapon, asked around about where it came from, and then chose to do it yourself.
I love the "I played WoW, so I know everything about MMO's" generation. They're just so smart.
Yeah I never played it, since 99, first Iskar on Fennin Ro with the Midnight Sun guild, but nope never played it.
Quests could lead to other zones but the makeup of the world made it so that you had to hit level ranges to do this zone or that zone. This is the barebones definition of a "themepark" zone, it's not based on hand holding you or not.
Everquest was an evolution of DikiMUDs into graphical form at that time. A lot of the early game content played a lot like a MUD, but in a 3D space. WoW simply made it more accessible and built a better reward and guidance mechanism with quests.
Originally posted by Trudge34 So, how did you get led around to each zone stiler? Would love to hear this. Must have missed that portion of it when I played back in 2000.
What do you mean how? The zones in EQ, just like most any other themepark mmo, are built for specific level ranges.
You go there, you did the quests you could, then you moved on to higher level zones.
What?? Nobody went to zones in EQ1 for the quests. They went there to hit camps. 99.9% of the mobs you killed in EQ1 had nothing to do with a quest. You didn't play EQ1 did you?
Did I say you all the mobs were for Quests? No.
But did you do quests in EQ? Cause I sure as hell did. You make it sound like you just grinded the entire game.
It wasn't the quest-centric "hub" like WoW is, but there were plenty of quests to do, and yes you would grind on mobs and things too.
I don't know how you played it, but I'd find all the quests I could in that zone, work up my level, then when I outlevel'd that area I'd move to a harder zone for my level range.
That's the basic way themeparks play out.
It just didn't lead you by the hand like WoW and newer themepark mmo's did.
Originally posted by Trudge34 Yeah but you said they led you there. Don't dodge that part of the question. How did they lead you there?
Originally posted by asdar
EQ wasn't a sandbox, but it certainly wasn't theme park. You might find some low level trash mobs outside the starting city, but take one step in the wrong direction and you were in way over your head, and we didn't have any idea if the way we were going was the wrong direction.
There were no flashing lights pointing out the next quest, I didn't do any quests on my first character except to go to my trainer at level 1. There was certainly nothing that pointed out where the 2nd zone was.
Originally posted by Tyvolus
exactly and that's the problem here, the wow generation of gamers think every MMO has to, and can be made to fit into some tiny little box that says "themepark" or "sandbox." EQ was an immersive, massive, online RPG, that was challenging, social, existed in a huge world that felt alive, was filled with players running around out in the world (not sitting in town waiting for a LFG tool to pop) and was incredibly fun.
not a themepark. not a sandbox. period.
EQ was a themepark, almost any mmo site and people familiar with MMO's in general refer to it as a Themepark mmo, in fact THE themepark mmo that started that "Trend" of the themeparks (as games after EQ borrowed heavily from it's design).
Was it a HARDER themepark? Of course.
There was no minimap with glowy trails telling you to go "here" for this or that, but the design of the world led you toward specific area's based on your level range. You did this area, then you went over to this one, you did this dungeon, then outlevel'd it and went to this one.
It wasn't nearly as easy as WoW, but that does NOT mean it was somehow not a themepark.
Originally posted by grimfall
Originally posted by Stiler
Originally posted by Trudge34 So, how did you get led around to each zone stiler? Would love to hear this. Must have missed that portion of it when I played back in 2000.
What do you mean how? The zones in EQ, just like most any other themepark mmo, are built for specific level ranges.
You go there, you did the quests you could, then you moved on to higher level zones.
No, you never played it. If you were doing quests they often spanned multiple zones. Sometimes you were on a "quest" to get a piece of gear from a dungeon, but no one gave it to you heard about some magical weapon, asked around about where it came from, and then chose to do it yourself.
I love the "I played WoW, so I know everything about MMO's" generation. They're just so smart.
Yeah I never played it, since 99, first Iskar on Fennin Ro with the Midnight Sun guild, but nope never played it.
Quests could lead to other zones but the makeup of the world made it so that you had to hit level ranges to do this zone or that zone. This is the barebones definition of a "themepark" zone, it's not based on hand holding you or not.
Yet you still call it a themepark...my brain assplodes at your kind
Not sure what the cut-off point for the dividing line of themepark/sandbox is, but as far as I can see it, EQ was like those small theme parks where the rides were really spread out, it had like 2 roller coasters, a concession stand, maybe a tilt-a-whirl and that strange guy who always seem to smell of some scent you couldn't quite identify, not really a traveling carnival but not a full fledge themepark like six flags.
You still went on rides there just wasn't as many, they tended to be longer because they didn't have as many, but they were still present. You could set up a camp next to the merry-go-round because the operators didn't care too much as long as you weren't in danger, signs weren't usually posted because it wasn't as big and they didn't worry about it nearly as much. (relaxed code of standard to live up to)
I know this paints EQ in a bad light as i describe it but i'm trying to give you the feel, it was still a themepark it just didn't have as many rides, nor as many expectations to live up to, as compare to say the newer theme parks:
Everything is coordinated, everything has age/height ranks, signs everywhere telling you where is ideal to go next, everything put together to make it easier to locate, (food stuff here that sort of thing), they also tend to have a lot more rides but they are shorter because they have to keep the lines moving, they can't let you have 2nd and third goes, With everything going on it's harder to just sit back and do the same thing over and over again.
It depends on what you are looking for, you looking for more of a quicker high thrills or more of a relaxed environment, either way, the way i see it, EQ was still a theme park just with a lot fewer rides.
About stepping in the wrong area, a lot of newer themeparks that are considered handholding still do this, you can still wander off and get one shotted by a mob, even SW:TOR can kill you pretty quick if you wander the "wrong way".
Themeparks themselves usually don't even tell you which way you have to go, they just have a more direct experience, if you really boil down to it, your letting the quests in the themepark guide you, why not run off and fight some mobs (forget how fast as that isn't the point of MMOs, it's to enjoy the experience), do some crafting, you don't have to let the game guide you, that just happens to be the fastest point from start to finish, which most people here seem to be against reaching end game so fast anyway.
Most of the quests in MMOs are optional anyhow, really only the ones that unlock things like the space ship in SW:TOR were really required, after that you can go pretty much anywhere you wanted (save for instances), yes I went to hoth right after getting my ship, it was dangerous as every mob could one shot you, but it didn't say oh no, your not X level so you can't go there. Only that Personal story stopped me...until I got the ship.
Sandboxes elements let you create the rides, theme park elements create the rides for you, I don't think quanity/quality of said rides makes any difference.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Sandboxes elements let you create the rides, theme park elements create the rides for you, I don't think quanity/quality of said rides makes any difference.
NO!!
Sandbox means just that. Open world. Beaause you say that it all should be build by players does NOT make it sandbox. When sandbox was even uttered it meant the exploration, nothing else.
Originally posted by whilan You still went on rides there just wasn't as many, they tended to be longer because they didn't have as many, but they were still present. You could set up a camp next to the merry-go-round because the operators didn't care too much as long as you weren't in danger, signs weren't usually posted because it wasn't as big and they didn't worry about it nearly as much. (relaxed code of standard to live up to)
we must have been playing different EQs -- i was never given any direction about where to go beyond Bard fedex quests
the EQ1 quest npc dialogues were obscure and you had to type the correct phrase to get meaningful interaction
for me EQ1 was neither a themepark or sandpark - EQ1 was a virtual world
Originally posted by whilan You still went on rides there just wasn't as many, they tended to be longer because they didn't have as many, but they were still present. You could set up a camp next to the merry-go-round because the operators didn't care too much as long as you weren't in danger, signs weren't usually posted because it wasn't as big and they didn't worry about it nearly as much. (relaxed code of standard to live up to)
we must have been playing different EQs -- i was never given any direction about where to go beyond Bard fedex quests
the EQ1 quest npc dialogues were obscure and you had to type the correct phrase to get meaningful interaction
for me EQ1 was neither a themepark or sandpark - EQ1 was a virtual world
Can you explainthe differences then? If EQ is a virtual world what is the definition of it? What separates it from Themeparks and "Sandbox?"
I ask because I have always used that term (Virtual world) to describe "Sandbox" games, like UO, where you were plopped into the world and free to play and do as you wanted, to make of the game what you desired. You didn't even have to fight or do combat if you didn't want to, you could just craft or do other things.
One of the defining features of a themepark to me is....themes. WoWs whole world was designed based on themes. From the horror theme of Duskwood, to the dinosaur theme of Un'Goro Crater, the jungle theme of Stranglethorn Vale to the desease theme of The Plaguelands, etc etc. The whole entire world is defined by themed regions and the quest hubs moved you from one theme to the next.
Everquest never felt theme oriented to me. Even if it is considered a themepark, it never felt like one playing it.
Originally posted by whilan You still went on rides there just wasn't as many, they tended to be longer because they didn't have as many, but they were still present. You could set up a camp next to the merry-go-round because the operators didn't care too much as long as you weren't in danger, signs weren't usually posted because it wasn't as big and they didn't worry about it nearly as much. (relaxed code of standard to live up to)
we must have been playing different EQs -- i was never given any direction about where to go beyond Bard fedex quests
the EQ1 quest npc dialogues were obscure and you had to type the correct phrase to get meaningful interaction
for me EQ1 was neither a themepark or sandpark - EQ1 was a virtual world
I believe i covered that aspect, if you notice the part I highlighted in yellow in my post said it didn't tell you were to go (which cover exactly what you stated it didn't give you directions (no signs posted) and you had to find them yourself (again because no sign was posted) the rides were still there, you just had to find them yourself.
By this same extent lets take SW:TOR for instance, lets say you remove the quest icons (not the quest just the icons) and you are given a ship right at the beginning so you can go anywehre, does that instantly make SW:TOR a virtual world and stop it from being a themepark? Doubtful, it still has rides, it just has more of them, the only difference is the rides are pointed out to you. I think we are arguing over "feel" rather then actual design.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
"We call it short play cycles," Turbine's Anderson said. "We need to be designing games that satisfy people who want to play four hours a week as well as people who want to play 40 hours a week." Turbine hopes to add such features to its forthcoming online games -- one based on J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings," another on the classic board game Dungeons & Dragons.
Garriott commenting on what a themepark is in 2002 (EQ had no instances for 4 years)
The wonderful thing about an MMP is that you don’t have to go alone. You can actually go with your friends, which everyone has always wanted to do. The problem is that you can never get rid of everybody. Everybody is with you all the time, and so you go into a dungeon and people are qued up to kill the troll king and you just wait your turn. We’ve seen other people try to fix that,like Anarchy Online with their pocket spaces of your own completion area of the quest.I’ve heard World of Warcraft is doing sort of the same thing with solo player areas, but in my mind we’re actually doing something much more fundamental than that, which is that instead of creating this giant virtual world where -- though it’s cool to go, "Hey, our world is five square miles." -- it’s not much fun to get to your friend if you were to come online at different times and different places. We actually believe that the best games will be organized much more like a theme park.
In Disney World, if you think of the main area as the massively multiplayer space, where it’s very easy to find each other or get from one fun activity, called a ride, to another fun activity, and even if you’re on opposite sides of the park, you can get there quite expediently either by walking, or using the train, or in our case teleporters even to make it faster. But when you go on a ride at Disney World, like Pirates of the Caribbean, when you get on a boat, you become blissfully unaware of the other people on the other boats. You can still see them, and you occasionally bump into them, but if it were an instantiated activity, you wouldn’t, and if the Pirates of the Caribbean were a pirate battle instead of a passive boat ride, you could imagine that here we have a quite contained hub world where you go from one fun activity, you come back and say, "Haha, we had a great time on that ride. Let’s re-equip ourselves and see what else we want to do." You want a thirty-minute, short combat adventure, that’s over here. You want a four-hour quest of the avatar scenario that’s very intricate and complex because you’ve set aside time for tonight, then that’s over here. You want to go out and do the red vs. blue, Unreal style tournament battles, well those take place over here, but all of those activities will take place in close corridors. Even if you go, "Hey, you know what I really want to do is explore the Himalayas just aimlessly", you can do that, but it’s reachable from the main game, if you follow my drift. Which is not to say that we’re creating a theme park, because this isn’t a theme park, it is a virtual world, it’s just organized in such a way that makes commuting not a pain. So we think that will provide both the best aspects of the massively multiplayer – ownership of territories, variety of roles that you can play, not just the traditional roles of just combat, which are part of the great aspects of MMPs. But also the great aspects of solo player games, where if you go on the four-hour quest of the avatar style adventure – you get a very scripted event where every lock you unlock, you and your party will feel is special for you. And you’ll achieve greatness. You will be the avatar. It’ll be as if you are the one group that has achieved this, as your blissfully unaware of the other groups in separate instances.
Originally posted by evilastro EQ had branched levelling paths, but it was linear. At a certain level you were always in one of a few zones. The end goal was then max level with tiered content. You were still on rails, but the larger world and lack of quest hubs gave the illusion of freedom.
Sandboxes elements let you create the rides, theme park elements create the rides for you, I don't think quanity/quality of said rides makes any difference.
NO!!
Sandbox means just that. Open world. Beaause you say that it all should be build by players does NOT make it sandbox. When sandbox was even uttered it meant the exploration, nothing else.
So Vanilla WoW was a sandbox. Ok I understand you now....
There is a thread that has done themepark v sandbox to death, but in simple terms the clue is in the name, a themepark is designed as a set of rides, the point of the game is to enjoy the rides, moving from to the new bigger rides as you go. A sandbox is a virtual world, that entices you to become part of that world and take part in activities that form part of that world.
Exploration and fast travel is a great indicator, in a themepark there is often fast travel and lobbies that undermines the representation of a large open world.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Trudge34 No joke. Want to actually answer it?
You are "led" because the developers "Designed" you from going from point A--->B--->C--->D--->Z
designing a MMO on levels and zoned level ranges, is just that. Developers don't need to tell you that you need to go down this pre-determined leveling path, because its common sense.
its common sense, that if you are level 1, you fight in locations designed for levels around your level.
When you out level that, you go to the new area designed for your new level.
you out level that, you go to the next new area designed for your level.
you repeat this till you reach max level and start tier progression.
thats the same concept of Themepark MMO. People forget that Vanilla WoW, didnt even have quest guidance. You had to read quest or travel to different locations of your level range. The maps didnt even display level ranges, so you could wander into a high level zone and get raped, like in lake red ridge (I think I got the name right).
The point is, being led, doesn't mean developers need a arrow to point you were to go. Because not even Vanilla WoW had that. Being led, is when the game is pre designed with certain behaviors to be taken in a certain order..
in WoW, if you were level 1, you not going to just jump into the level 60 content. No, you had to first level up, which was designed that way, no matter how many paths you took to max level, that was pre designed. Same with EQ1. No matter what path you took to endgame, it was designed that way for you to do so before hand.
Comments
"EQ wasn't a sandbox, but it certainly wasn't theme park"
exactly and that's the problem here, the wow generation of gamers think every MMO has to, and can be made to fit into some tiny little box that says "themepark" or "sandbox." EQ was an immersive, massive, online RPG, that was challenging, social, existed in a huge world that felt alive, was filled with players running around out in the world (not sitting in town waiting for a LFG tool to pop) and was incredibly fun.
not a themepark. not a sandbox. period.
First generation of games I just consider MMORPGs. They all offer similar things, mainly a big open world to explore and adventure in, but a bit different at the same time. WoW was the first actual themepark MMO, as evidenced by the prelaunch interview with the lead dev that's been linked here many times before. Anyone who says WoW copied EQ doesn't have a clue. They went away from EQ, taking the complaints people quitting had, and made their game from that. The implementation of quest hub gameplay, for instance, was the result of people complaining from EQ that quests that you worked hard and long for did not give adequate exp for their completion. One of the biggest complaints at the time was that quests did not give enough reward. With that success became the themepark generation. Themepark has a pretty specific definition. Everything else is somewhere in the middle of the slider.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
No, you never played it. If you were doing quests they often spanned multiple zones. Sometimes you were on a "quest" to get a piece of gear from a dungeon, but no one gave it to you heard about some magical weapon, asked around about where it came from, and then chose to do it yourself.
I love the "I played WoW, so I know everything about MMO's" generation. They're just so smart.
Anyone who thinks EQ was a themepark never played it.
Definitely *not* a themepark.
The first real themeparks were EQ2 and WoW
I'll have to agree that EQ1 wasn't really a theme park. I started out in Kelethin. I found my first mob by falling out of the damn city and dying within the first few minutes, and then spending 15 minutes trying to figure out how to get back into the city. There was nothing telling me to go to Crushbone next. I just wandered around the area till I saw stronger mobs. There wasn't even a map to keep track of anything. You usually found out about other zones just through chatting.
Ugh. No. Just no. EQ is not what started the themepark MMO. EQ2 and WoW did that.
You're right, it was nothing like UO's sandbox world. UO was truly a sandbox. EQ1 was just an MMORPG.
What?? Nobody went to zones in EQ1 for the quests. They went there to hit camps. 99.9% of the mobs you killed in EQ1 had nothing to do with a quest. You didn't play EQ1 did you?
You people and your titles you have to give games. Just STFU and move on!! EQ was NONE OF THE ABOVE!! It was a founding stone. One of the first.
Now we have to see soooooo many morons label it as if it can be. Get over yourselves and say what you want in an MMO. Not your weak minded version of what was. If there ever was an MMO "sandbox" it was EQ back then. YOu knew there was this huge world but never knew how big. But you wanted to find out.
Now...days or even hours after launch and you know how big the world is.
You want a sandbox? Stop asking how big? Stop wondering and play...idiots...
EQ was a themepark, almost any mmo site and people familiar with MMO's in general refer to it as a Themepark mmo, in fact THE themepark mmo that started that "Trend" of the themeparks (as games after EQ borrowed heavily from it's design).
Was it a HARDER themepark? Of course.
There was no minimap with glowy trails telling you to go "here" for this or that, but the design of the world led you toward specific area's based on your level range. You did this area, then you went over to this one, you did this dungeon, then outlevel'd it and went to this one.
It wasn't nearly as easy as WoW, but that does NOT mean it was somehow not a themepark.
Yeah I never played it, since 99, first Iskar on Fennin Ro with the Midnight Sun guild, but nope never played it.
Quests could lead to other zones but the makeup of the world made it so that you had to hit level ranges to do this zone or that zone. This is the barebones definition of a "themepark" zone, it's not based on hand holding you or not.
Joshua Halls
Co Owner-Lead Programmer The Repopulation
Did I say you all the mobs were for Quests? No.
But did you do quests in EQ? Cause I sure as hell did. You make it sound like you just grinded the entire game.
It wasn't the quest-centric "hub" like WoW is, but there were plenty of quests to do, and yes you would grind on mobs and things too.
I don't know how you played it, but I'd find all the quests I could in that zone, work up my level, then when I outlevel'd that area I'd move to a harder zone for my level range.
That's the basic way themeparks play out.
It just didn't lead you by the hand like WoW and newer themepark mmo's did.
Yet you still call it a themepark...my brain assplodes at your kind
Not sure what the cut-off point for the dividing line of themepark/sandbox is, but as far as I can see it, EQ was like those small theme parks where the rides were really spread out, it had like 2 roller coasters, a concession stand, maybe a tilt-a-whirl and that strange guy who always seem to smell of some scent you couldn't quite identify, not really a traveling carnival but not a full fledge themepark like six flags.
You still went on rides there just wasn't as many, they tended to be longer because they didn't have as many, but they were still present. You could set up a camp next to the merry-go-round because the operators didn't care too much as long as you weren't in danger, signs weren't usually posted because it wasn't as big and they didn't worry about it nearly as much. (relaxed code of standard to live up to)
I know this paints EQ in a bad light as i describe it but i'm trying to give you the feel, it was still a themepark it just didn't have as many rides, nor as many expectations to live up to, as compare to say the newer theme parks:
Everything is coordinated, everything has age/height ranks, signs everywhere telling you where is ideal to go next, everything put together to make it easier to locate, (food stuff here that sort of thing), they also tend to have a lot more rides but they are shorter because they have to keep the lines moving, they can't let you have 2nd and third goes, With everything going on it's harder to just sit back and do the same thing over and over again.
It depends on what you are looking for, you looking for more of a quicker high thrills or more of a relaxed environment, either way, the way i see it, EQ was still a theme park just with a lot fewer rides.
About stepping in the wrong area, a lot of newer themeparks that are considered handholding still do this, you can still wander off and get one shotted by a mob, even SW:TOR can kill you pretty quick if you wander the "wrong way".
Themeparks themselves usually don't even tell you which way you have to go, they just have a more direct experience, if you really boil down to it, your letting the quests in the themepark guide you, why not run off and fight some mobs (forget how fast as that isn't the point of MMOs, it's to enjoy the experience), do some crafting, you don't have to let the game guide you, that just happens to be the fastest point from start to finish, which most people here seem to be against reaching end game so fast anyway.
Most of the quests in MMOs are optional anyhow, really only the ones that unlock things like the space ship in SW:TOR were really required, after that you can go pretty much anywhere you wanted (save for instances), yes I went to hoth right after getting my ship, it was dangerous as every mob could one shot you, but it didn't say oh no, your not X level so you can't go there. Only that Personal story stopped me...until I got the ship.
Sandboxes elements let you create the rides, theme park elements create the rides for you, I don't think quanity/quality of said rides makes any difference.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
NO!!
Sandbox means just that. Open world. Beaause you say that it all should be build by players does NOT make it sandbox. When sandbox was even uttered it meant the exploration, nothing else.
we must have been playing different EQs -- i was never given any direction about where to go beyond Bard fedex quests
the EQ1 quest npc dialogues were obscure and you had to type the correct phrase to get meaningful interaction
for me EQ1 was neither a themepark or sandpark - EQ1 was a virtual world
EQ2 fan sites
Can you explainthe differences then? If EQ is a virtual world what is the definition of it? What separates it from Themeparks and "Sandbox?"
I ask because I have always used that term (Virtual world) to describe "Sandbox" games, like UO, where you were plopped into the world and free to play and do as you wanted, to make of the game what you desired. You didn't even have to fight or do combat if you didn't want to, you could just craft or do other things.
Not every MMO has to be either a themepark or a sandbox.
EQ had a few themepark elements, a few sandbox elements, and alot that really doesn't fit into either category.
Everquest never felt theme oriented to me. Even if it is considered a themepark, it never felt like one playing it.
I believe i covered that aspect, if you notice the part I highlighted in yellow in my post said it didn't tell you were to go (which cover exactly what you stated it didn't give you directions (no signs posted) and you had to find them yourself (again because no sign was posted) the rides were still there, you just had to find them yourself.
By this same extent lets take SW:TOR for instance, lets say you remove the quest icons (not the quest just the icons) and you are given a ship right at the beginning so you can go anywehre, does that instantly make SW:TOR a virtual world and stop it from being a themepark? Doubtful, it still has rides, it just has more of them, the only difference is the rides are pointed out to you. I think we are arguing over "feel" rather then actual design.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
themeparks support casual play - something EQ never did (pre 2004)
can log in for 30 minutes and get something accomplished
I'll let an old Turbine interview from Feb 2004 speak for me
http://otherworlds31279.yuku.com/topic/1167/Online-games-failuresuccess-Boston-Globe-article#.UftCK23BPQo
"We call it short play cycles," Turbine's Anderson said. "We need to be designing games that satisfy people who want to play four hours a week as well as people who want to play 40 hours a week." Turbine hopes to add such features to its forthcoming online games -- one based on J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings," another on the classic board game Dungeons & Dragons.
Garriott commenting on what a themepark is in 2002 (EQ had no instances for 4 years)
http://www.gamesfirst.com/articles/aaron/garriott/garriott1.htm
The wonderful thing about an MMP is that you don’t have to go alone. You can actually go with your friends, which everyone has always wanted to do. The problem is that you can never get rid of everybody. Everybody is with you all the time, and so you go into a dungeon and people are qued up to kill the troll king and you just wait your turn. We’ve seen other people try to fix that,like Anarchy Online with their pocket spaces of your own completion area of the quest.I’ve heard World of Warcraft is doing sort of the same thing with solo player areas, but in my mind we’re actually doing something much more fundamental than that, which is that instead of creating this giant virtual world where -- though it’s cool to go, "Hey, our world is five square miles." -- it’s not much fun to get to your friend if you were to come online at different times and different places. We actually believe that the best games will be organized much more like a theme park.
In Disney World, if you think of the main area as the massively multiplayer space, where it’s very easy to find each other or get from one fun activity, called a ride, to another fun activity, and even if you’re on opposite sides of the park, you can get there quite expediently either by walking, or using the train, or in our case teleporters even to make it faster. But when you go on a ride at Disney World, like Pirates of the Caribbean, when you get on a boat, you become blissfully unaware of the other people on the other boats. You can still see them, and you occasionally bump into them, but if it were an instantiated activity, you wouldn’t, and if the Pirates of the Caribbean were a pirate battle instead of a passive boat ride, you could imagine that here we have a quite contained hub world where you go from one fun activity, you come back and say, "Haha, we had a great time on that ride. Let’s re-equip ourselves and see what else we want to do." You want a thirty-minute, short combat adventure, that’s over here. You want a four-hour quest of the avatar scenario that’s very intricate and complex because you’ve set aside time for tonight, then that’s over here. You want to go out and do the red vs. blue, Unreal style tournament battles, well those take place over here, but all of those activities will take place in close corridors. Even if you go, "Hey, you know what I really want to do is explore the Himalayas just aimlessly", you can do that, but it’s reachable from the main game, if you follow my drift. Which is not to say that we’re creating a theme park, because this isn’t a theme park, it is a virtual world, it’s just organized in such a way that makes commuting not a pain. So we think that will provide both the best aspects of the massively multiplayer – ownership of territories, variety of roles that you can play, not just the traditional roles of just combat, which are part of the great aspects of MMPs. But also the great aspects of solo player games, where if you go on the four-hour quest of the avatar style adventure – you get a very scripted event where every lock you unlock, you and your party will feel is special for you. And you’ll achieve greatness. You will be the avatar. It’ll be as if you are the one group that has achieved this, as your blissfully unaware of the other groups in separate instances.
EQ2 fan sites
lol
So Vanilla WoW was a sandbox. Ok I understand you now....
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Exploration and fast travel is a great indicator, in a themepark there is often fast travel and lobbies that undermines the representation of a large open world.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
You are "led" because the developers "Designed" you from going from point A--->B--->C--->D--->Z
designing a MMO on levels and zoned level ranges, is just that. Developers don't need to tell you that you need to go down this pre-determined leveling path, because its common sense.
its common sense, that if you are level 1, you fight in locations designed for levels around your level.
When you out level that, you go to the new area designed for your new level.
you out level that, you go to the next new area designed for your level.
you repeat this till you reach max level and start tier progression.
thats the same concept of Themepark MMO. People forget that Vanilla WoW, didnt even have quest guidance. You had to read quest or travel to different locations of your level range. The maps didnt even display level ranges, so you could wander into a high level zone and get raped, like in lake red ridge (I think I got the name right).
The point is, being led, doesn't mean developers need a arrow to point you were to go. Because not even Vanilla WoW had that. Being led, is when the game is pre designed with certain behaviors to be taken in a certain order..
in WoW, if you were level 1, you not going to just jump into the level 60 content. No, you had to first level up, which was designed that way, no matter how many paths you took to max level, that was pre designed. Same with EQ1. No matter what path you took to endgame, it was designed that way for you to do so before hand.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design