when raiding was hard / nostalgia

killahh · July 2013

nostalgic raiding vids, yes the graphics was not great, but you had to fight your way in, and, if you died you appeared naked at your bind. Therefore you had to have people that played their class well, and moreover, was trustworthy.

enjoy, its a blast from the past.

Interesting though just watching these 4 vids, you can see the change in raiding, and what it means to get to high level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFz-UdoLoZ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73S3kasIlGo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lccbiyZl38w

and by comparison,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas

cheers

Trudge34 · July 2013

Which pull was that in NToV? Was that the 3 dragon pull in the back? Looked pretty brutal.

I watched that WoW video too...wow. No wonder there's no retention in new games these days and then being forced to go F2P...

arieste · July 2013

I watched like the first few minutes of the WoW video and was immediately thankful that I've never bothered to play it. As similar as it's said to be to EQ2, the idea of getting to cap and just queuing up for stuff as being the only thing to do or only way to progress is just so limited.

As far as raiding difficulty goes, at any given time over the past 2-3 years, there was maybe 100 people out of hundreds of thousands that were killing the hardest content in EQ2. And it was NOT because you needed 24 hour/day playtime or because you were willing to spend 5 hours running back to your corpse after you died. Even the toughest mob in EQ2 probably takes 10-20 minutes to kill. What's hard about it is that it's hard (duh). The encounters require not only smart itemization on the part of the players, but they require full knowledge of their class and full ability to understand and execute strategy under complex and ever-changing conditions - while communicating with peers. It's what raiding is all about.

I also found it quite funny that WoW guy's imagined "worst possible raider" is just someone that does zero DPS and dies, but h doesn't mention anything about failure conditions. On the tougher EQ2 raids, if one person - and only one person - screws up, it's a wipe. No recovery. Pfft, "zero dps". I wish.

Thankfully SOE knows MMOs quite a bit better than Blizzard. They may not have gotten as lucky with a "Fad" game, but they've multiple MMOs of all kinds that have been around for more than 5 years and countless others under their belt. Not all have been good or successful, but I'll take the makers of EQ, EQ2, SWG and DCUO over the makers of WoW anyday.

killahh · July 2013

Originally posted by Trudge34
Which pull was that in NToV? Was that the 3 dragon pull in the back? Looked pretty brutal.

I watched that WoW video too...wow. No wonder there's no retention in new games these days and then being forced to go F2P...

This was a planned pull of Vulak to make this video. The guild was Talisman on the Tunare server. also is one of my favorite videos out there, sure wish i still had some of the videos our guild made at the time, but theres some great ones still floating around.

if anyone has other good ones post em

Waterlily · July 2013

Those first few raids in EQ were tank and spank raids, it wasn't until GoD that raids became very tenchinal.

But I think part of the difficulty of EQ early raids was that no one had a clue what PVE raiding was, all those things like guild hierarchy, class leaders, DKP, came from EQ. Half the battle was having 60 players to be on the same page.

killahh · July 2013

yep, and if you saw the fated words. "clerics camp" your heart turned to ice, you immediately sat down and logged out, hoping that those in the raid would sacrafice themselves long enough for you to log out, as that was the only way to save the raid, and sometimes days of corpse recovery

Aelious · July 2013

Wow, that last one is an eye opener. Maybe part of the problem, besides the initial difficulty, is having over half the screen filled with flying numbers, graphs and widgets. Having to gauge things like damage and threat should be done by the players themselves IMO. Then comes the encounter diffuculty... wow, the idea that someone in a group doesn't have to even try and nothing bad happens points to something wrong.

One bit of fun from The Sleeper video:

"I'm upset? that the most biblical mob in mmo history's sound track.... is Celine dion"

wizardanim · July 2013

The attitude toward and focus on raiding in online games need to be modified. I do believe Sony is planning on changing the regimen, which means

1) Raids will not be possible for quite a long time in EQNext, community will be required first.

2) It will benefit players to see content vs. pass through it as fast as possible.

The final video in this post does point at these two being issues ... all people rush as fast as possible to end game, and don't care about anything else.

I for one am taking a different approach, which is to learn EQNext as I did EQ1 (with an open mind) when it first came out.

killahh · July 2013

Aelious writes:

One bit of fun from The Sleeper video:

"I'm upset? that the most biblical mob in mmo history's sound track.... is Celine dion"

lol

/facepalm

TheJoda · July 2013

God I remember 2 day TOV camp....Days to raid Plane of Sky(air) for the original epic weapons, 6+ hours for a clear PoT timed gods....Those were the days. Sadlly gamers today don't want that anymore, not sure how EQN will work.

TheJoda · July 2013

Originally posted by Waterlily
Those first few raids in EQ were tank and spank raids, it wasn't until GoD that raids became very tenchinal.

But I think part of the difficulty of EQ early raids was that no one had a clue what PVE raiding was, all those things like guild hierarchy, class leaders, DKP, came from EQ. Half the battle was having 60 players to be on the same page.

Not all true....some yes spank and tank I fully agree. But, several were just the skills needed in PULLING mobs to the raid, monks, sks, even necro using FD to pull mobs back to the raid and not WIPING it in the process was key.

sanshi44 · July 2013

O man that comparison WoW video just got me laughing my ass off i knew it was easy and getting easier but this is rediculous lol, free loot for no dmg just standing and watching and trying to take as much dmg as u can without dieing lol. LMAO and not to mention 1 day played time to finish last end raid zone.

Waterlily · July 2013

Originally posted by killahh

and by comparison,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas

I finally watched this.

Looking for Dungeon / Raid, are such bad systems. Any form of automation destroys community.

Automated systems that uses rolling loot is ridiculous too.

Dullahan · July 2013

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by killahh

and by comparison,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas

I finally watched this.

Looking for Dungeon / Raid, are such bad systems. Any form of automation destroys community.

Automated systems that uses rolling loot is ridiculous too.

You mean, some random person deciding if you should be rewarded or not for spending the whole evening with them killing virtual monsters instead of staying with your family are a good thing?

I believe in systems where everyone who participated in a SINGLE event gets rewarded. Not a system open to potential abuses by guild leaders and their friends.

Yes, it is a good thing. A person takes other factors into consideration that the system does not know. Things like previous raiding efforts, time spent helping players level and gear up, donating crafted items/armor or anything else necessary to keep the guild moving forward.

killahh · July 2013

Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by killahh

and by comparison,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas

I finally watched this.

Looking for Dungeon / Raid, are such bad systems. Any form of automation destroys community.

Automated systems that uses rolling loot is ridiculous too.

You mean, some random person deciding if you should be rewarded or not for spending the whole evening with them killing virtual monsters instead of staying with your family are a good thing?

I believe in systems where everyone who participated in a SINGLE event gets rewarded. Not a system open to potential abuses by guild leaders and their friends.

Yes, it is a good thing. A person takes other factors into consideration that the system does not know. Things like previous raiding efforts, time spent helping players level and gear up, donating crafted items/armor or anything else necessary to keep the guild moving forward.

I'd have to agree.

one small point though, is that if you joined a guild long ago, you were expected to contribute, and become part of the family, so to speak.

So, if you were a casual player, but contributed, took an active part in guild affairs, and community spirit, you would have no problem.

I did most of vanilla wow, and burning crusade raids, dripped in purple, and was a casual player, i love playing and chatting to people, helping guildies ect.. and by casual i mean i played maybe 1-2 hrs a night weekdays and 6 on the weekend :

Wellspring · July 2013

While we're posting links of old Everquest raiding videos, here's one of my favorites from over the years.... It has a catchy tune also!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih17Mj44u_g

Stromm · July 2013

Originally posted by Waterlily
Those first few raids in EQ were tank and spank raids, it wasn't until GoD that raids became very tenchinal.

But I think part of the difficulty of EQ early raids was that no one had a clue what PVE raiding was, all those things like guild hierarchy, class leaders, DKP, came from EQ. Half the battle was having 60 players to be on the same page.

Exactly, "Raiding" was not designed, it was a happy accident. It grew and developed organically to defeat the devs prize unkillable boogeymen.

Waterlily · July 2013

Originally posted by Wellspring
While we're posting links of old Everquest raiding videos, here's one of my favorites from over the years.... It has a catchy tune also!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih17Mj44u_g

TSS was one of the last expansions I thought was built extremely well. I didn't enjoy most after TSS.

The dev team kept shrinking after TSS and I assume their budget went down accordingly.

It's a real shame so many left around GoD, the best expansions came after GoD for me, OOW-DoN-DoD-PoR and TSS were extremely solid expansions.

azzamasin · July 2013

Originally posted by Aelious
Wow, that last one is an eye opener. Maybe part of the problem, besides the initial difficulty, is having over half the screen filled with flying numbers, graphs and widgets. Having to gauge things like damage and threat should be done by the players themselves IMO. Then comes the encounter diffuculty... wow, the idea that someone in a group doesn't have to even try and nothing bad happens points to something wrong.

One bit of fun from The Sleeper video:

"I'm upset? that the most biblical mob in mmo history's sound track.... is Celine dion"

I have no hard evidence but I would bet my entire savings that the hideous and obtrusive UI's of those types of games are the reason why people never get out of fire. That and the majority of people are mouse clicker & Keyboard turners. It is why I am so heavily advocating the use of a limited hotbar/UI setup with an action combat. I rag on TESO a lot but if one thing they are doing right is there limitations on UI elements and action combat to force people to use mouse for targeting.

azzamasin · July 2013

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by killahh

and by comparison,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas

I finally watched this.

Looking for Dungeon / Raid, are such bad systems. Any form of automation destroys community.

Automated systems that uses rolling loot is ridiculous too.

You mean, some random person deciding if you should be rewarded or not for spending the whole evening with them killing virtual monsters instead of staying with your family are a good thing?

I believe in systems where everyone who participated in a SINGLE event gets rewarded. Not a system open to potential abuses by guild leaders and their friends.

This times a thousand.

It is why I hate raids and will never do them but yet I still want large group activities as long as they reward everyone involved. Having less then 5% of the participants in a raid get rewarded for doing something tough just reeks of poor gameplay. not to mention the ability for its abuse.

munx4555 · July 2013

I definatly miss eq's version of raids, one of the things that made eq raiding so great is that the first clears were insanely difficult, to the point where it felt almost like you wernt meant to beat them.

I miss having raids that even the top 3 guilds would spend close to a year clearing for the first time, it also made it all the more special when one of those top guilds finally managed it, because it let everyone else know "It really is possible!".

These days you just need to keep grinding the same crappy raid over and over until your gear is higher then the raid boss, while back then for the first clears you would be naturally "undergeared" no mather how prepared you came, only after you beat the raid bosses once or twice would you be able to "outgear" the content.

I was also fortunate enough to be able to watch the battle for first clears that went on between guilds such as Afterlife and Forsaken realm, aswell as a alliance of asian guilds I forgot the name of.

I have been in alot of high end guilds since I quit eq1, but the level of organization that I saw while watching Forsaken realm try for first clears is something I have not seen since, mainly because games these days don't require anywhere near the organization.

I hate that raids have become something that everyone should be able to clear just based on how long they play, while there should definatly be raids like those aswell, they shouldnt be the "true" endgame.

I would really like to see the return of raids that wernt really meant to be beaten.

waynejr2 · July 2013

Originally posted by DMKano
As somebody who raided heavily in EQ1 - I hope EQN is different.

I don't have the time nor the desire to participate in raids that involved over 80 players at times.

IMO - old school raids are best left where they belong - in the past.

Would you prefer the 15 minute aoe spamfest runs? I think a guild should be doing one big raid per week plus the old one on farm. 9 hours of commitment to clear. Gaining gear for the next higher level raid.

TheJoda · July 2013

Originally posted by DMKano
As somebody who raided heavily in EQ1 - I hope EQN is different.

I don't have the time nor the desire to participate in raids that involved over 80 players at times.

IMO - old school raids are best left where they belong - in the past.

I also raided heavy in EQ 1, I agree the 80+ raids were a nightmare to get ready for and pull off, but I hope it takes more then 20 in EQnext. Building a guild, group of friends to share the game with, and depend on is KEY for a new and longlasting MMO I feel.

Shatter30 · July 2013

People that started in WOW missed out on what a great MMO EQ1 was. It was hard, challenging and you EARNED what you got. My epic quest took 8 months to finish for my serpent staff and that was to this day(12 years later) the most rewarding item I ever got in any game because I earned it big time. I raided in WOW for 4 years and nothing I got had that kind of attachment and nothing has since. I hope EQN isnt as hard as EQ1 was, but I do hope it has high challenge and makes players earn their rewards. Here is to hoping EQN is a more of what the original was then a WOW clone.

Ineveraskforthis · July 2013

Man..the last video is like a slap to the face to the MMO gamers/genre.

How can WoW players tolerant this kind of gameplay? where's the fun and challenge anymore?

waynejr2 · July 2013

Originally posted by Shatter30
People that started in WOW missed out on what a great MMO EQ1 was. It was hard, challenging and you EARNED what you got. My epic quest took 8 months to finish for my serpent staff and that was to this day(12 years later) the most rewarding item I ever got in any game because I earned it big time. I raided in WOW for 4 years and nothing I got had that kind of attachment and nothing has since. I hope EQN isnt as hard as EQ1 was, but I do hope it has high challenge and makes players earn their rewards. Here is to hoping EQN is a more of what the original was then a WOW clone.

But we are on the second generation of kids who have happy meals with free toys in them. Or sports where everyone who participated got a trophy instead of just the winners. It's different that when I was a kid.

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