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Can EQ Next survive generation Z?
gamekid2k
Member Posts: 360
I can't wait for the day this thing comes out in open beta. However, I am concern because is there really a market for this game? Open world, sandbox all these sounds good but last 10 years these type of game had major decline. This generation of gamer wants theme park and therefore we have over 1000+ theme park MMO as of now. Did people played UO because it was a good game that they wanted to play or were they forced to play since there were none others? EQN will be the last sandbox game if it fails. I hope it doesn't.
Comments
It's all conjecture what the game actually is till next week, and the way society is going, I have grave doubt about this generation, heck they even removed letter/number grades in schools in Alberta because it can hurt children's feelings
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
The MMO market is a lot bigger now. This allows for us players to have more of choice in choosing what game we want to play.
I am friends with a lot of people that want that sense of community in a sandbox world. Some of these friends are "generation Z" and some are closer to my age. Some of the younger players have never been exposed to such a strong sense of community, but when they play with us they get to see what it means to have strong social bonds in a game and now they are looking forward to an entire game dedicated to it too.
This may not be all the millions of players, but that is actually a good thing. My hope is that EQNext becomes a haven for gamers that want a feeling of community.
Dude, I wish that all those failed Themepark WoW-clones brought the end of that game design.
Anyway, the market needs a AAA fantasy sandbox game right now. A lots of people are tired of the WoW model, MMOs being super instanced, all the hand-holding, gameplay being focused 100% on combat/gear treadmills, etc. Hell, ESO announcement was like a slap in the face of many when it was shown to be a themepark game.
SOE simply have to get it right and I would say that SWG pre-NGE showed they once knew where they should be going to succeed. They just have to deliver something that isn't bugged, got good server stability and entertaining gameplay systems. Oh and fantasy help, it's always popular.
Also, it's not the generation Z that want themeparks. Liking sandbox games has nothing to do with age, I have a friend who can't stand them and he's 30 years old (he loves Final Fantasy though). It's a personality thing.
The truth, we had played all the other Ultima games, and this whole internet thing was new. Exactly there were no others (or so few) to play online massively. It was a time of learning. Devs thought gamers would play their game as intended, not as we would get away with. When the Devs learned they corrected, and Trammel was born. So to was born the forum troll with rose coloured glasses for the days before Trammel.
If the segment of the gaming population wanted sandbox, they would be playing sandbox. Rather than demanding sandbox, that Devs learned to be wrong. Lessons Learned can not be unlearned. Humans fear Dragons because it embodies our primal fears. The head of a tiger, the body of a snake, and the wings of an eagle. These are early humans' first predators. Now we can not unlearn this natural fear, at least those of us meant to survive( Darwin Awards ).
I don't suspect that EQN will recreate the days before Trammel. I'm sure EQN will move forward from the days after Trammel. That is why the sandbox crowd will be dissatisfied with EQN.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
you know what i am realy tired about? companies promising the shit from heavens, and in the end deliviering a standart mmo instead of their "godlike masterpiece which they announced and promised".
back in the days DEVS made the games. they produced what THEY think would work - that's WHY it worked.
nowadays it's more like "Uh hey, let's ask the kids what they want! and then do it!" and that's exactly what i see comming for EQN too.... a game designed through the wishes of the masses, cannot work.
so, how about you guys just stop with that "i want blablabla and mimimi and ubidubi" and let the guys do their work? devs are quite able to produce a game, that's why they are devs, and not gamers.
did you know how many people were like "uh make this and that in daoc! or i will not play it and tell my mommy!"
close to none. we played what they gave us, not what we forced em to give us "errr yes please more epics and more bling, and then my hero needs a skill to kill evereony else plox!"
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I really don't see the logic behind your line of thought.. is this generation filled with themeparks? most definatly, however its not filled with sucessful themeparks, just about every single one of them at this point are bleeding subs/players at extreme rates.
While there are themepark mmos that are doing moderatly well, there is nothing close to a smash hit.
I don't know if eqnext will be a sucsessful mmo, infact I kinda doubt it knowing SoE, however there is little doubt that sandbox mmos are more relevant now then ever before, while not a mmo minecraft is a perfect example of just how relevant sandbox is, not to mention sandbox games in general have become more and more popular in other genres with games such as Rdr, gta, sleeping dogs, just cause etcetcetcetc..
There is absolutely no chance of eqnext being the last sandbox mmo, I suspect we'll see more and more of them over the next few years.
If anything is at risk of "dying" its this generation of themepark mmo's, and quite honestly I think thats a good thing, a new generation of mmos is overdue.
In my opinion the mmorpg genre as a whole has become a joke, Its no longer about the journey but rather about the ending.
90% endgame, 10% journey.
One of the main weaknesses of the themepark mmos is that the lvling has to be fast because the player wants to get to the next part of the story asap.
In the end it seriously damages the lifespan of the mmo, and turns the entire lvling process into nothing more then a prolonged tutorial.
A sandbox mmo allows you to make it "grindy" without making it tedious, anyone who played games such as eq know just how rewarding that grind to max lvl can be if done right.
It seems as though themeparks aren't that popular now due to the spike in activity and subsequent drop after the content is run through. F2P helped get more people in the door but they seem to leave just as fast to the next MMO and there are only a finite amount of decent ones. Even the gold standard, WoW, has now lost so many subscribers that it even surprises me.
I think players are seeing the limitations of themeparks and how it doesn't work well in an MMO if the progression is fast. I don't think EQN will be a full sandbox, Smed was careful to say largest "sandbox-style" MMO and I think it was purposeful. I think i will have many sandbox elements including a large open world that allows creation, allows a certain amount of freedom and does not have static quest hubs. That said I think it will be familiar in a way to those that have played themeparks, SoE would be making a mistake otherwise.
Everything must change to grow and I think themeparks have seen thier course run. More will still be there I just think people are eager to "upgrade" to something that offers what a themepark can but gives you more freedom. I'm honeslty more concerned about Generation Y. The angst and negativity shown towards anything that could be positive is dreadful to see and unfortunate.
Smedley also talked about players burning forests down and destroying lots and lots of things in interview. That's the most hardcore sandbox features that exist. It's so hardcore that very few sandboxes games allows it.
Will EQNext be a fullblown sandbox game ?
I hope not, because it would be an epic failure in that case.
I'm willing to bet that 75% of today's MMO gamers have never played a sandbox game. They might have heard about them, but they would have no idea of what life is like in that virtual world.
At the time that UO's subs peaked, it had been left in the dust by EQ, which had almost twice as many subbed players. Of course that doesn't "prove" that themeparks trump sandboxes, but it did set a trend.
The majority of people will rather watch something on TV than sit down for a game of D&D. In MMO terms, they are happiest when someone put's a large axe in their hands and says: "See those rabbits over there with the sparkly highlights ? Go slay them ! And don't bother coming back here until you've done at least 10..."
EQ was without question not a sandbox, and anyone who played EQ back when it was going head to head with UO knows it also was not a themepark. Stop thinking every MMO has to be either a "sandbox" or a "themepark." It could just be that EQ was this huge, wide open massive online fantasy world, where there were no quest hubs, or sparkly paths to guide you, no hand holding on where to go or what to do next, LFG finders, or areans/battlegrounds. or any of the other things take come to define a themepark style MMO. everything in life doesn't have to fit in a nice, neat, tidy box just so you might understand it better.
Sandbox is trying to make a comeback. Sony with the EQ franchise is the biggest AAA doing it.
But there are others as well that either look promising, or are actually out, but awaiting english conversion and distribution.
These are ArcheAge and Shroud of the Avatar (UO Next...lol)
The problem with Sandbox is striking a balance between good game mechanics, user interface, artificial intelligence, PvE, PvP, sound, game engine, player progression, crafting, possible story etc. There have been several games that have tried it in the past several years but none have hit any mark of mass appeal due to one or more of the things I listed not being done or well thought out before release.
ArcheAge currently is the winner, with Shroud in second place and EQ Next a possibility. This could change drastically as the race to the finish continues and more information comes out about Shroud or Next.
Old folks always talk about kids wanting instant gradification. It's as old as the human species. Old school RPGs have always been a niche market. The world is full of jocks and nerds are the minority. Deal with it!
So the question becomes "is EQN going for mass appeal?". Who is SOE trying to crater to? Will it make the old school nerds happy or are they going to try to get the jocks to play?
That's certainly a well thought out interpretation.
I myself think that the reason these games have "spiked & flopped" is due to where most "new MMO gamers" have been raised on single-player games & when they play an MMO have transferred their single-player mindset over with them, so they put in around as many hours as they would a single-player game, develop boredom & leave.
The old-school games didn't have anything like as much competition, often due to design enforced & required group-play to progress your character, and so "communities" formed out of a need to cooperate.
When the shift to allowing solo-play through a "golden-path" of quests happened (WoW led the charge of this direction) the social construct dissipated, now only supported by raiding teamwork necessities.
I don't know if the "forced to group" design will or even can make a comeback, or if there is some way to create a similar community driving force like it because there are very large & significant downsides to it, such as how long it used to take to form groups & how little you could do without one, but I hope EQN can find "community building" mechanics & get them working well in the game.
Simple truth though is that the core MMO gamers had to go through a learning process of developing teamwork skills & social interaction skills in order to have meaningful progress in the genre's titles, that has been eroded almost completely by the focus on enabling solo content in the second-wave of MMO's the new MMO player doesn't have to go through that, communities are much more ephemeral & break up far easier, I recall many established guilds in EQ holding a low-churn roster for several years, whilst the experience from WoW is that guilds were formed, broken up & reformed at a far more massive degree, the number of established guilds with steady rosters was a much much smaller % of the population & that has been the case for all the WoW era games I've tried out.
And communities that stick together are the key secret ingredient to retention.
I'd say don't expect a full sandbox experience. I'm weary with Smedley at the wheels. Don't even expect EQ, while indeed not a true sandbox game by many players standard, it did have a few nice "sandbox" features.
If you really want the sandbox experience, archeage sounds as your best bet. I expect Smedley to make EQN a minor sandbox experience with lots of themepark things. I've seen people expecting things and really wonder if they are willing to deliver that all.
What this generation needs are companies who just stick their head in the ground and say this is our game. Welcome to our world. The way old games were made. That won't work, because if EQN or another game does that, another game would just be carebear or a lot easier than EQN or another game and people would rather jump ship to the least challenging experience, not knowing that they would enjoy a game that last for years a lot better. Devs don't know everything, but players know even less about what they want to play.
That contention comes up a lot here and I find it such a bizarre way to look at voluntary leisure activity.
That's another odd one, too.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I have no illusions that half the playerbase will be whiners if they put anything even remotely hard in the game.
If they need to travel for any distance: "but time consuming is not the same as challenging. QQ"
If they need to grind for any period of time "but time consuming is the same as challenging. QQ"
If they have a death penalty of any kind "but deathpenalties don't make a game hard QQ"
etc
until developers change the game to appease to WoW players. Most players whine until they get exactly the same game as WoW, even though they all claim they want something different than WoW.
Yup, until they get the same game as WoW.
Then they call it "an inferior WoW cone" and go back to WoW, because WoW has 10 years of content more than the game that just launched...
This is sadly spot on, however if eqnext was to be released or open betad in august they might be able to avoid this pitfall.
To me it seems like most mmo players want change, but they are to afraid of there being to much change.
Its a vicious cycle. They whine because they're unhappy, and they're unhappy because they whine.
SOE needs to grow a massive pair to keep this game from sucking.
People keep saying this and it keeps making me confused.
There hasn't been a sandbox developed by a AAA company since SWG. Eve was built up from nothing (and is the second most popular MMO in the west). Vanguard was the last virtual world game and everyone loves it in spite of the lack of any development and the horrible engine. But they ultimately leave because of the last two reasons.
And if everyone wanted themeparks, how come all the themeparks seem to fail and go FTP to stay afloat?
In any case, devs need to stick to their vision more. There's the core MMO audience, the audience that'll actually stick around, that wants something different.
Then there are the WoW kids. For example, a bunch of WoW raiding guilds got invited into AoC closed beta and complained it was too hard. Swing in 8 directions? Better make it 2 or 3! What? Actually having to look for quest objectives? Better make it auto map and sparkle!
Devs need to IGNORE these people, because they will be gone in weeks.
I think there's a ton of room in the market for a quality AAA sandbox game.
Right now theres...what, Eve? I guess Eve counts as AAA now maybe? It's a big game now at any rate, But that's really it. Archeage I guess. That's not even in NA yet though.
Players would actually stick. It's not like themeparks where people come from one of the 1000 other themeparks, try this new themepark out for a bit, then go to the next themepark.
I agree with you 1000% on why players don't stay around as long, spot on. I also hope EQN has ways to keep people interacting. Dave has mentioned it but we won't know what it looks like until we see it.
Time of progression and difficulty (groups) are IMO two ways to keep people around longer because of the community it creates. On the progression aspect I think taking some queues from PS2 would be fantastic. Sounds strange but if you've played it, it can take a Iong time but the gameplay is engaging enough you don't mind it.