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Player Death

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Comments

  • EdgthoEdgtho Member Posts: 40


    Originally posted by sinoth
    When you die, item decay ONLY for 'active' items such as armor and guns seems like a good way to have death sting but not be terribly annoying. Not saying it should be the only mechanism for player death, just one of them. Item dropping will be needed for PvP, or dropping an entire corpse of items, but that is such a touchy subject and has been discussed before.

    This is where a game's credibility must be weighed against the quality of play. However, since permadeath is the ONLY realistic approach to this issue, and it can't be implemented for very obvious reasons, it seems kind of moot in a sense.

    It's hard to judge at this point, because it's not clear how PvP will work or how often players are going to die. I know that as a player, I certainly don't want to lose everything when I die. Of course, I think that food, gas, artifacts, and other such secondary items should go to the victory (whoever killed you), but when you do respawn, I'd hope that you'd still have your armor and weapons with you, though slightly worse for wear.

    -----------------------------------
    Go you must.
    No guest shall stay
    in one place for ever.
    Love will be lost
    if you sit too long
    at a friend's fire.

    -- The Havamal

  • SlagathorSlagathor Member Posts: 37



    Originally posted by Edgtho



    This is where a game's credibility must be weighed against the quality of play. However, since permadeath is the ONLY realistic approach to this issue, and it can't be implemented for very obvious reasons, it seems kind of moot in a sense.




    Precisely. They're sitting in their dev thinktank, mulling over the big question "Where do we compramise?" Obviously, permadeath is too extreme. So what's the answer? Item loss? I personally say no. My experience shows that people hold back when they're in danger of losing their gear. Or they leave their best gear at home on display, as if to say "This is what I'd be kicking ass with if I wasn't afraid to lose it". Guess what; if you're not using it for fear of losing it, you've already lost it.

    What other options does this leave us with? Item decay? That works for me. But then should the item's maximum durability decrease every time it's repaired, or should it be showroom fresh every time? As far as time and money sinks go, item repair is usually fairly trivial. How realistic is item degradation? It's certainly more realistic than none at all, but what at what rate should an item decay and what should trigger the decay? Death? Why? I own a Glock 17 9mm pistol that I bought when Glock first made them. I've fired it alot. I went 10 years without cleaning it once. It still fires as well as the first time I ever shot it. Better even because I'm a better shot now. Upon inspection, you'd be able to see where the gun is showing some wear and tear. But why would my death cause it to wear even more? When I die, that's when the wear and tear stops! I think that the decay on death has always been a traditional concept of warning you to stop dying rather than a realistic response to death.

    When it comes to PvP death, I'd like to see the winner rewarded with more than just prestige or kill stats. But I don't want to see the loser have their body looted either (see above for reasoning). So what I'd like to see is that when a player kills another player, the defeated player drops loot for the winner, but the loot is randomly generated. The winner gets something out of the kill and the loser doesn't lose any items.  This also allows for the possibility of looting something really valuable, as opposed to getting trinkets if certain items are secure from looting, like primary weapons, armor and the like.

  • sinothsinoth Member Posts: 175

    I don't think random loot is the right way to go. It just seems very wrong.. you're turning a player into just an NPC. I hope Icarus just bites the bullet and has limited item drops like Neocron.. people don't complain about it there. It honestly doesn't take that long to get used to.

    http://www.fallenearth.se - Your source for Fallen Earth information

  • EdgthoEdgtho Member Posts: 40


    Originally posted by Slagathor
    What other options does this leave us with? Item decay? That works for me. But then should the item's maximum durability decrease every time it's repaired, or should it be showroom fresh every time? As far as time and money sinks go, item repair is usually fairly trivial. How realistic is item degradation? It's certainly more realistic than none at all, but what at what rate should an item decay and what should trigger the decay? Death? Why? I own a Glock 17 9mm pistol that I bought when Glock first made them. I've fired it alot. I went 10 years without cleaning it once. It still fires as well as the first time I ever shot it. Better even because I'm a better shot now. Upon inspection, you'd be able to see where the gun is showing some wear and tear. But why would my death cause it to wear even more? When I die, that's when the wear and tear stops! I think that the decay on death has always been a traditional concept of warning you to stop dying rather than a realistic response to death.

    Your weapons wouldn't decay, but your armor most certainly would. I personally think that guns should simply have some maintenance requirements, like they would in real-life. A well-maintained gun can last for decades or even centuries. This longevity would also encourage players to modify their weapons. Maybe losing your ammo when you die would be a compromise that could be made.


    When it comes to PvP death, I'd like to see the winner rewarded with more than just prestige or kill stats. But I don't want to see the loser have their body looted either (see above for reasoning). So what I'd like to see is that when a player kills another player, the defeated player drops loot for the winner, but the loot is randomly generated. The winner gets something out of the kill and the loser doesn't lose any items. This also allows for the possibility of looting something really valuable, as opposed to getting trinkets if certain items are secure from looting, like primary weapons, armor and the like.

    I agree with Sinoth that random loot is probably not the way to go. It's not realistic and might actually encourage unnecessary PvP. I think that putting only whatever players are willing to carry up for grabs as loot would discourage PvP, unless you're near a newly discovered ruin with tons of technology for the taking or something like that.

    EDIT: Why are these boards so incredibly difficult?

    -----------------------------------
    Go you must.
    No guest shall stay
    in one place for ever.
    Love will be lost
    if you sit too long
    at a friend's fire.

    -- The Havamal

  • SuldaSulda Member Posts: 24

    Personally, I remember how much I loved the way that Diablo handled it.  You could have a "hardcore" character that was perm-death and couldnt be recovered.  I think this could have an application in MMORPG...

    Lets say you have a standard set of regenerative characters (how to be handled I dont know).. but also you could have a hardcore character.  You could reward the hardcore characters with abilities and weapons and items and skills that only they as Hardcore can possess.  This would probably also increase the mortality rate.. but there are those who would be willing to take the risk.  I think it would certainly need a reward system for being hardcore.. but with the downside of loosing everything if you do something stupid.

  • sinothsinoth Member Posts: 175

    Big difference between Diablo and an MMO.. I don't think anyone would want a hardcore character, because bad stuff happens too frequently. Connection problems, random ganking, someone aggroing an entire dungeon on you, etc. It was fine in Diablo because it was single player (or co-op), you had tons of potions, town portals.. basically devices to keep you alive in a stupid situation and get you back to town. MMOs don't quite have that, even WoW, because then you'd never die and there wouldn't be such a thing as a dangerous situation. If we had to choose, it'd probably be best to keep the feeling of danger in favor of having hardcore characters.

    http://www.fallenearth.se - Your source for Fallen Earth information

  • EdgthoEdgtho Member Posts: 40


    Big difference between Diablo and an MMO.. I don't think anyone would want a hardcore character, because bad stuff happens too frequently. Connection problems, random ganking, someone aggroing an entire dungeon on you, etc.

    Yes, I have some fond memories of playing in a Catacomb in DaoC and hearing a crescendo of footsteps as 20 newbies dash towards the entry to the dungeon with every single high-level enemy around in hot pursuit. I'd inevitably get caught up in their retreat, and would have about a 1 in 4 chance of survival (if you're alert you can manage - it's like the running of the bulls in Spain, just stay at the front and don't fall). :)

    Seriously, though, I think that death would have to be an extremely rare occurrence for any sort of perma-death to be worthwhile. I also don't like the idea of giving people boosts for chancing it - that would mean that character registration would have to be a breeze, and that certain clans might find themselves under attack by legions of newly-registered berserkers who fight like seasoned veterans.

    -----------------------------------
    Go you must.
    No guest shall stay
    in one place for ever.
    Love will be lost
    if you sit too long
    at a friend's fire.

    -- The Havamal

  • RaxarRaxar Member Posts: 6

    Probably the most extreme death penalty I've seen in an MMO is implemented in Eve Online. But it's one that makes sense. The better your character, the more your clone cost. You die, you buy another clone, if you dont have enough credit, you work in safe areas till you do. Kill mobs, gather and sell resource, whatever. When you die, you lose some stuff, what's left of your stuff you go back and get it if you can.

    Now inevitably, some knucklehead will wonder out into danger without a clone... well then they deserve what they get, true permadeath, back to square one.

  • FalendorFalendor Member UncommonPosts: 81

    Hi every one new to the topic.

    I have a problem with clones and no perma death, clones are corny, yes i now its SF but if eavery person has unending clones its just silly, also perma death is scary!!! and scary can be fun.

    adrenalin is fun, and if i can get a adrenalin rush playing a MMO that is a cool MMO. 

    I think a "you where knocked out and saved by Mr. X" is satisfactory, and if it has a rising chance of perma death all the better, keeps the pop of the max level power games down, also it makes the people who do make it there very for filed because of all the work that got them there.

  • drycatdrycat Member Posts: 119

    Well, I can't deny that it might be an adrenaline rush. But, I think they would have a hard time implementing it into a 15$ a month subscription, plus the original cost of the game. It's an interesting idea, but very few people will continue to pay to spend time in the Character Creation system when their toon is killed. Coupled with lag, computer lock-ups, disconnects, it would make it a very difficult thing to deal with. Plus, it has been addressed here as well. Sorry, should have said that first off hehe

     

    This has been mentioned as well, but I thought I would elaborate on it a bit more( for those of us not in the know ):

    Eve Online has an interesting take on death as well. You insure yourself to a certain amount of skillpoints. Your skillpoints come from training your various skills that you have paid for or the few skills you started with. It is kind of harsh if you don't have insurance to cover your skill points. You basically lose what you have not insured. And training takes a long time. So, if you are "pod-killed" once your ship is destroyed, you have some trouble if you don't have insurance to cover your skillpoints. It has never happened to me, so I cannot state what happens from this perpective. It can become quite costly to insure a character with many skills that are fully trained, especially the higher rank they are. Still, an interesting take on "perma-death" I suppose.

    No offense intended, and welcome to the board image

  • AtheraalAtheraal Member Posts: 90

    How about a system where you respawned back in the starting area (there would be no binding points elsewhere, a long run would be a penalty for dying in a far away, difficult area) as a clone, with none of your stuff, and whatever skill-based penalties you'd get. Then, the moment someone loots your body, your equipped items and your vehicle (also, you should only be able to possess one vehicle at a time) get instantly sent back to the starting area as well, and you recieve a message to the gist of;

    "Hey! You just recieved word that an anonymous someone brought back your previous body! Lightened of most of its load, of course."

    That way, if you died in a very remote place, fighting npcs, you have a good chance of getting all your stuff back. And if you died in PvP against another player, well, at least you got your most important stuff back. ::::02::

    This idea also couples with the idea of some sort of secondary carrying device (A sack of some kind, maybe) that would go in your active equipment slot, meaning you could keep less weapons or ammo, but save at least some portion of your other items. This leads to another risk vs reward moment, as you think;

    "Hmm, I'm about to go fight this tough-looking player. Should I go all out and have a few weapons handy, or should I play it safe, and make sure he can't loot some of my better stuff if he wins?"

    Ahh, good old ideas that come to you at 3 a.m. ::::02::

    ___________________
    image

  • FalendorFalendor Member UncommonPosts: 81

    what about this:

    if you get to 0 hp (or whatever) you fall down mortaly wounded, taking you out of the fight.  at the end of the fight if you team metes win they save you, if all of you get mortaly wounded you lie there until another party comes and saves you or a NPC comes by (ther is a entire faction of healers).  the peanalty for dieing is you have to sit out until then, and if you dont get saved in X amount of time (probly a fiw hours) you perma death. 

    this would make it very hard to actualy die.  you can get taken out of the fight but as long as your team wins in the end your good.  and if you realy hate some one you can kill thim and sit on there body for a long time to make shure they dont come back. (sorry my computer bugged out on me there)

    also i think perma death would help game a lot.  xp penaltys and having to walk a long way to get back are more anoying than they are realy penaltys. if there was a chance, even if its 1 in 100 every time i die that this time i wont get to come back, i would play very difrently and the game would catch my atanchen more during game play.

  • FalendorFalendor Member UncommonPosts: 81

    what about this:

    if you get to 0 hp (or whatever) you fall down mortaly wounded, taking you out of the fight.  at the end of the fight if you team metes win they save you, if all of you get mortaly wounded you lie there until another party comes and saves you or a NPC comes by (ther is a entire faction of healers).  the peanalty for dieing is you have to sit out until then, and if you dont get saved in X amount of time (probly a fiw hours) you perma death. 

    this would make it very hard to actualy die.  you can get taken out of the fight but as long as your team wins in the end your good.  and if you realy hate some one you can kill thim and sit on there body f

  • EdgthoEdgtho Member Posts: 40


    Originally posted by Atheraal
    How about a system where you respawned back in the starting area (there would be no binding points elsewhere, a long run would be a penalty for dying in a far away, difficult area) as a clone, with none of your stuff, and whatever skill-based penalties you'd get. Then, the moment someone loots your body, your equipped items and your vehicle (also, you should only be able to possess one vehicle at a time) get instantly sent back to the starting area as well, and you recieve a message to the gist of;"Hey! You just recieved word that an anonymous someone brought back your previous body! Lightened of most of its load, of course."That way, if you died in a very remote place, fighting npcs, you have a good chance of getting all your stuff back. And if you died in PvP against another player, well, at least you got your most important stuff back.

    I like this idea. It could certainly be tweaked to allow for players who come across your body to return all of your possessions to you - this would remove the issue of fellow teammates looting your things, but instead giving them back to you as you'd expect them to in real life (assuming that that's what would be expected of them).

    -----------------------------------
    Go you must.
    No guest shall stay
    in one place for ever.
    Love will be lost
    if you sit too long
    at a friend's fire.

    -- The Havamal

  • VenaliciusVenalicius Member Posts: 33

    Im not really sure what kinda system I want to be honest... but i want that one guy (or girl) playing at 3 in the morning to be shaking with adrenaline and tigger finger ready. I dont enjoy perma deaths because they lead to a drastic pop decrease and that would be bad..... but besides that I want to be able to get off a lucky shot on someone and take their gun (and if im feeling nice give them my old one). I would like (maybe) to see something along the lines of hiring a caravan when you respawn (not always only if you want to). That takes an amount of time depending on where to died to get your stuff. Now I want it so that i cant take all of their nice gear but maybe pick out one or two good items.... but you cant test it out until you take it... anyway somehow (maybe someone could gimmie a lil help making this realistic) you would only be able to take X items from a character per amount of time. And if the caravan of law enforcers found you looking their employers corpse well they Hold an auction (even NPC's need to feed their families) so you could get your gear back if you were caught but no only would you recieve whatever death penalties you might get a hard hit to your walet depending on if someone wants that gun you had.... where as the PKee would only have to wait and do smaller jobs and missions while waiting for the caravan to re appear and has the posibility to lose some items. I think that this caravan should cost a percentage of your total worth (Cash + items) but you guys can change it if you want lol::::38:: Im proud of my idea even if you all dont like it

  • FalendorFalendor Member UncommonPosts: 81

    Thats a lot like evonline where you "insure" your self, and its not a bad idea.

    the main thing i wanted to do with my idea was make it easy for you to die in a fight with your freands (play a coopt fps and count how many times each of you dies) and still come back without any penaltys (no runing long distance or xp penaltys), but if your team all die than there is a real chance non of you are coming back.

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