Why not engage him directly? If you can counter the fact you are the minority in the market, go for it. The head in the sand reality deny helps no one.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
From what I read it seems as if many of you are going to agree on game design and trends. Speaking of game design from a title that is over 10 years old, let's look at Asheron's Call. There's a system within the game that I "personally" have not seen in a MMORPG since my time playing in the world of Dereth.
Our communities are now more focused on guilds, but what about.....the allegiance system.
The allegiance system in Asheron's Call was the game's guild system. But the idea was to build personal relationships through incentives. In most guilds today a player has to prove his worth to a guild sometimes in order to become a member. This is more true especially for some guilds that focus on endgame content like raiding. In Asheron's Call the idea is the other way around; what can the allegiance(or monarchy) do for you?
The creation of an allegiance is based off a pledge from one player to another. More commonly between a experience player(the Patron) and a lower level player(the Vassal). The idea is that the patron provides assistance to his or her vassal. That means you would be taking a moment(sometimes lengthy) out of your game time to focus on the progression of the individual underneath you. What is the incentive of doing this? The experience the Vassal earns in his adventures, a pool of it is given to the Patron. Another product of the system is more a personal relationships being formed.
But the allegiance system is seen as a tree. Because a patron could have two vassals, but those two vassals could also have number of players underneath themselves as well, etc, etc, etc. If you were to be at the top of the tree in an allegiance with hundreds of active players, you would receive a hefty XP bonus.
I would love to see this type of system in larger gaming communities. Players would travel to low level areas actively recruiting newcomers. It wouldn't just be about what a guild could do for you, but what I personally can do for you.
Especially in my first 20 levels in Asheron's Call my patron would log on and before he did anything, the first thing on his agenda would be asking if I needed help. Often he would buff my gear, and stats so I could grind experience in higher level areas. There were days that he'd log on to give me rare crafting material or a random loot drop he thought might be useful in my adventure. It made my experience even more enjoyable because he saw me as a investment. And later on I did the same with my three vassals.
That gets us back to the initial question: Why do the mainstream want to solo on a mmorpg game and just interact with players to show their epeen/do stuff they're forced to do together?
It would seem to me that if you want a multiplayer experience it is because you want to interact with others.
It would seem to me that if you cared about the multiplayer experience in MMOs you wouldn't write client hacks and bot programs for them. vOv
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, I code for fun, not to have any particular impact on the game's community.
Besides, with the current state of affairs bots have a significantly lower impact than they would have had 10 years ago. There's not much difference between a bot running around and not interacting with the other players and players running around not interacting with other players.
It does not really matter if you do it for fun or for profit, if you use them or distribute them amongst others for them to use - it's impacting games negatively.
Botting or using hacks is worst possible thing person can do in a multiplayer game, right next to buying gold or other stuff.
Bots and cheats rampage is one of two things that would make me stop playing even if I would get my 'dream mmorpg'. It is something that greatly contributed to demise of open world MMORPGs and one of very small subset of things that can ruin future mmorpgs of that type.
Originally posted by jpnz Why not engage him directly? If you can counter the fact you are the minority in the market, go for it. The head in the sand reality deny helps no one.
Catch up, man. You've been around here long enough and are active enough that you should know by now what this member is up to. Feel free to browse his post history if you have somehow managed to miss the zillions of spam posts and cries for attention.
This member has made it a hobby to make a mockery of these forums and the mods that should know better.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by jpnz Why not engage him directly? If you can counter the fact you are the minority in the market, go for it. The head in the sand reality deny helps no one.
Catch up, man. You've been around here long enough and are active enough that you should know by now what this member is up to. Feel free to browse his post history if you have somehow managed to miss the zillions of spam posts and cries for attention.
This member has made it a hobby to make a mockery of these forums and the mods that should know better.
Trying to discuss anything without the majority's opinion serves what purpose?
Nari's opinion is what the majority in the market wants right now. That's just fact. You might not like it but tough, fact doesn't change just because you don't like them.
If you want a bunch of yes-man all saying 'Yes, get off my lawn!' types go ahead, just remember this is public forum so not everyone will agree.
Like I said previously, if someone can counter the fact 'The original poster is the minority so there's less choices for you' I'd love to hear it.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by jpnz Nari's opinion is what the majority in the market wants right now.
Jpnz, can I quote you in my sig? Cuz this is hilarity in its purest form. About four posters constantly spout "F2P" spam such that they sure sound like the same person. Everyone else here disagrees with them constantly. But ya I'm sure you few guys speak for the majority.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 95% of my socializing in-game has been within my guild/party/raid. There's always exceptions, but I never felt the desire to chat with everyone I happen to see in game.
This is the problem.
No offense to you personally, but your statement pretty much pinpoints the issue over the last 10 years of MMO. "Back then" in smaller communities, you were the minority. The stand-offish, anti-social, "why do I want to talk to these people?" attitude was not shared among the majority of the playerbase in mmo's because the MMORPG players WANTED to socialize with each other.
Building communities, friendships, popularity, prestige, social reputation, comradery all were the things that drew people to these games. Not cool gear. not raids. not gear scores, not damage meters and certainly not to belittle newer players by coining the term "noob"
Today, these POSITIVE traits are considered as nothing more than "bad design" or somehow a hassle, and unnecessary. The new generation of developers as well as the influx of console gamers that are now the majority of "MMORPG Community" simply don't understand what the problem is because they were never there in the first place to see why these things were important.
People just did not start to play MMORPGs back then with the mind to ignore everyone who's not in their clique/guild/crew.
That mindset is horribly unwelcoming, antisocial, and doesn't really benefit the gameplay experience of others.
Originally posted by jpnz Why not engage him directly? If you can counter the fact you are the minority in the market, go for it. The head in the sand reality deny helps no one.
But that is all they have. If they have numbers, market research, or anything but their own opinions, they would have use that already.
That mindset is horribly unwelcoming, antisocial, and doesn't really benefit the gameplay experience of others.
I don't play games to benefit the gameplay experience of others.
And before you spew the same "this is the problem" .... it is what it is. Human nature. MMORPGs are entertainment products, not social engineering to better the human race.
If people want to have fun without socialization, that is their prerogative. It is just a preference. No worse than yours.
That mindset is horribly unwelcoming, antisocial, and doesn't really benefit the gameplay experience of others.
I don't play games to benefit the gameplay experience of others.
And before you spew the same "this is the problem" .... it is what it is. Human nature. MMORPGs are entertainment products, not social engineering to better the human race.
If people want to have fun without socialization, that is their prerogative. It is just a preference. No worse than yours.
Who's talking about bettering the human race? Don't resort to hyperbole over such a comment, it's really not that intense.
You can't deny, however, that the reason is there. Yes, everyone plays games for their own reasons, fine, I have no problem with you saying that or even the fact that it is the truth when it comes to the nature of gaming. That's not my point at all.
What I am saying is the reason things are the way they are now, is because the games' designers have decided to cater to the BAD parts. The ugly, selfish, narcissistic parts in ALL OF US HUMANS. These traits are now the target. The people that don't care about their impact on the people around them, i.e. thieves, liars, con artists, stupid people, immature people, racists, bigots, trendy people, pop-culture fashion victims, sociopaths etc, all seem to have games designed with them in mind. In EQ1 or AC, or DAoC, or UO, or SWG or any of the games that defined the standard years ago, the most important form of currency was REPUTATION. Not the shallow "rep bar" reputation, but the real, person-to-person reputation. The games were designed to be played freely as each person wanted to, but they were also designed so that the COMMUNITY themselves could effect and react to bad apples. Now, all we have is an /ignore function.
It's the leveling system get from 1 to 60(or whatever) it really needs to get out of mmo's. No one can enjoy content. They are pushing themselves and pushing to become a "level 60" or whatever the high level is. They put off making friends and ignore everyone. Even troll and badger others out of boredom until they get high level - then kiss ass to form up with other high levels. Get rid of the leveling and the social will start to come back.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal It's the leveling system get from 1 to 60(or whatever) it really needs to get out of mmo's. No one can enjoy content. They are pushing themselves and pushing to become a "level 60" or whatever the high level is. They put off making friends and ignore everyone. Even troll and badger others out of boredom until they get high level - then kiss ass to form up with other high levels. Get rid of the leveling and the social will start to come back.
Exactly. This is another aspect people don't seem to pay attention to. However, I can't say I fully agree with this, simply because I think there's much more to it than that. I do agree, however, that everyone does exactly how you described.
They rush through levels trying to get to "end game" where all the cool kids are. Everything along the way is trivial.
I don't think this is because of the "existence" of levels. I think it's because of the lazy design choice to make a lifeless, empty game with temporary content that we only see/interact with 1 time on our way to the "top" where the deep content awaits. I think it's because developers think it's a good idea to put a carrot at the end of a stick.
I think it's because developers/investors today don't want to settle with the profits they will get from making good, long lasting virtual worlds where community is EVERYTHING because they would rather have much fatter pockets by making games for adolescent teens with short attention spans that use the words 'noob' and 'gay' in every sentence who also crave constant violence and action.
I mean, really... If you sit back and look at the way games are being made (majority of them in this genre over the last 5-6 years) it's clear that this genre has just become a multiplayer action zone with RPG "elements" thrown in to try and explain things so it doesn't seem ludicrous that you can't tea-bag everyone on your screen at level 1.
That mindset is horribly unwelcoming, antisocial, and doesn't really benefit the gameplay experience of others.
I don't play games to benefit the gameplay experience of others.
And before you spew the same "this is the problem" .... it is what it is. Human nature. MMORPGs are entertainment products, not social engineering to better the human race.
If people want to have fun without socialization, that is their prerogative. It is just a preference. No worse than yours.
Who's talking about bettering the human race? Don't resort to hyperbole over such a comment, it's really not that intense.
You can't deny, however, that the reason is there. Yes, everyone plays games for their own reasons, fine, I have no problem with you saying that or even the fact that it is the truth when it comes to the nature of gaming. That's not my point at all.
What I am saying is the reason things are the way they are now, is because the games' designers have decided to cater to the BAD parts. The ugly, selfish, narcissistic parts in ALL OF US HUMANS. These traits are now the target. The people that don't care about their impact on the people around them, i.e. thieves, liars, con artists, stupid people, immature people, racists, bigots, trendy people, pop-culture fashion victims, sociopaths etc, all seem to have games designed with them in mind. In EQ1 or AC, or DAoC, or UO, or SWG or any of the games that defined the standard years ago, the most important form of currency was REPUTATION. Not the shallow "rep bar" reputation, but the real, person-to-person reputation. The games were designed to be played freely as each person wanted to, but they were also designed so that the COMMUNITY themselves could effect and react to bad apples. Now, all we have is an /ignore function.
Who decides what is a good part and what is a bad part? By labeling it the bad part, you already pass a judgment of what good "game behavior" should be.
There is no such thing. Games are for entertainment. So if people not want to socialize in games, so what?
The most important part of a game is whether it is fun because that is what the goal of an entertainment product is ... to entertain. If people choose fighting stuff instead of socialization ... that means that they like fighting stuff more ... there is zero reason to force them to socialize in an entertainment product.
Let me put it another way. If "not caring" about others is more entertaining, what is the problem of letting people do that in their entertainment? They already have to learn to live with others in the real world. Games are what let people escape from the real world.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal It's the leveling system get from 1 to 60(or whatever) it really needs to get out of mmo's. No one can enjoy content. They are pushing themselves and pushing to become a "level 60" or whatever the high level is. They put off making friends and ignore everyone. Even troll and badger others out of boredom until they get high level - then kiss ass to form up with other high levels. Get rid of the leveling and the social will start to come back.
I doubt it.
Leveling, time-wise, is a small part of the game. MOst time is spent on dungeons & raids (or even instanced pvp) at end game.
Do you see people socialize more then? No, they wave around their purple gear epleen, and wait for the next dungeon/raid/bg to pop.
The most important part of a game is whether it is fun because that is what the goal of an entertainment product is ... to entertain. If people choose fighting stuff instead of socialization ... that means that they like fighting stuff more ... there is zero reason to force them to socialize in an entertainment product.
Let me put it another way. If "not caring" about others is more entertaining, what is the problem of letting people do that in their entertainment? They already have to learn to live with others in the real world. Games are what let people escape from the real world.
Ok dude, you're arguing just to argue, imho.
If you are feeling lonely and talkative, would you go to a Library and make a bunch of noise just because it has people there?
If you are hungry and crave Pizza, would you go to Mc Donald's and call all the employees and customers Noobs because they don't have the uber pizza slices you crave?
The point is, we're not talking about all videogames here. Well, I'm not. You are. I'm talking about MMORPGs.
If someone doesn't want to be social AT ALL, why would they choose such a medium for entertainment, and then open their mouths about how it should change into something they should have chosen instead in the first place?
If you want pizza go to Pizza Hut or somewhere you can get what you desire. Don't go fucking up the way they do things at McDonald's.
If you want people to talk to and party with, don't go to a Library and expect anything other than Library atmosphere.
There are other venues people can go to that already offer the experiences they are looking for without joining the MMORPG community and tainting it and turning it into something it shouldn't have to change into.
If someone doesn't want to be social AT ALL, why would they choose such a medium for entertainment, and then open their mouths about how it should change into something they should have chosen instead in the first place?
May be they like the combat?
May be they like the setting?
May be they like to have others around to show off their gear?
May be they like to trade on the AH?
There are tons of reasons other than being social to play a MMORPG. If not, why would solo-ing in MMORPG be so popular?
If someone doesn't want to be social AT ALL, why would they choose such a medium for entertainment, and then open their mouths about how it should change into something they should have chosen instead in the first place?
May be they like the combat?
May be they like the setting?
May be they like to have others around to show off their gear?
May be they like to trade on the AH?
There are tons of reasons other than being social to play a MMORPG. If not, why would solo-ing in MMORPG be so popular?
I never said solo-ing in an MMORPG shouldn't be allowed. I myself am someone who often plays solo when I log in to something when I don't have a lot of time to play.
All I'm saying is that the games themselves today, by design, offer more reward and gratification to people who are anti-social. When I play alone, and when many others I know personally play solo, it's not to avoid interacting with people. If someone asks for help, help is given. If someone wants to come along, they are welcome to. If someone wants to share something, there's nothing wrong with that.
What I see as a bad thing is games being designed to house thousands of players all on the server together, yet, giving them functions that negate any reason for them to talk to each other.
Convenience is what i'm talking about, and in this case, all the changes with "convenience" in mind are just ruining the beauty and unique culture of MMORPGs. Any XBOX live or PSN game is indistinguishable from an MMORPG now because MMORPGs and console games are now both being designed with the same goals in mind, trying to attract everyone and their mother instead of making a game from group A, a game for group B and a game for group C, respectively.
The downtime, travel, housing, looking for groups, adventures, exploration, role-play, story telling, challenges, IMBALANCE, complexity all are things that imho really NEED to be in an MMORPG in order for it to develop into something more than just some videogame.
If people like you, nariusseldon, and others don't like these aspects of MMORPG, that's fine and I can't say there's anything wrong with that. What I don't like is this notion that people that don't like what MMORPGs are can start playing them anyways and provide constant feedback to development that the games should be less like MMORPGs and more like console/arcade games because 'you' think it's more fun that way.
If someone wants to play an MMORPG just to be an asshat and grief others, not socialize, not help others, not be friendly, but want others to be around to show off their gear to, fine. I find it gut wrenching and immature, but fine.... what I will not "shut up" about is that those kinds of people can progress while being that way because the games are now designed for them. What I will not shut up about is how I'm expected to shut up about this stuff, while these negative anti-social people are allowed to spew "noobs!" and "gtfo" and "omfg thats so ghey" without being told to shut up.
People are people and there's always going to be bad-apples, but I miss the MMORPGs that embraced the nature of reputation among players. Shitty people lost interest and moved on to another game because their shitty antics didn't fly in the MMORPGs where the COMMUNITY ruled and the WORLD was impacted by players' actions and choices.
If someone doesn't want to be social AT ALL, why would they choose such a medium for entertainment, and then open their mouths about how it should change into something they should have chosen instead in the first place?
May be they like the combat?
May be they like the setting?
May be they like to have others around to show off their gear?
May be they like to trade on the AH?
There are tons of reasons other than being social to play a MMORPG. If not, why would solo-ing in MMORPG be so popular?
I never said solo-ing in an MMORPG shouldn't be allowed. I myself am someone who often plays solo when I log in to something when I don't have a lot of time to play.
YOu said, and i quote "If someone doesn't want to be social AT ALL, why would they choose such a medium for entertainment". I just gave you 4 other reasons. Even if that is not what you agree, you can't deny those can be reasons for others.
All I'm saying is that the games themselves today, by design, offer more reward and gratification to people who are anti-social. When I play alone, and when many others I know personally play solo, it's not to avoid interacting with people. If someone asks for help, help is given. If someone wants to come along, they are welcome to. If someone wants to share something, there's nothing wrong with that.
No argument here.
What I see as a bad thing is games being designed to house thousands of players all on the server together, yet, giving them functions that negate any reason for them to talk to each other.
And i don't. Why is it a bad thing? The goal of a game (and MMOs are games) is to entertain. They are not chat-rooms where the primary function is to encourage socialization.
Convenience is what i'm talking about, and in this case, all the changes with "convenience" in mind are just ruining the beauty and unique culture of MMORPGs. Any XBOX live or PSN game is indistinguishable from an MMORPG now because MMORPGs and console games are now both being designed with the same goals in mind, trying to attract everyone and their mother instead of making a game from group A, a game for group B and a game for group C, respectively.
"Ruining"? That is just a matter of perspective and preference. MMOs are worse games than today. UO is "ugly" in its contribution to the griefing culture. I am glad things are changed.
The downtime, travel, housing, looking for groups, adventures, exploration, role-play, story telling, challenges, IMBALANCE, complexity all are things that imho really NEED to be in an MMORPG in order for it to develop into something more than just some videogame.
Nothing is "needed" to be included in a MMORPG. In fact, those things are taken out and MMOs are still around. History proves that such a need (except may be yours) does not exist. And MMORPGs are video games.
If people like you, nariusseldon, and others don't like these aspects of MMORPG, that's fine and I can't say there's anything wrong with that. What I don't like is this notion that people that don't like what MMORPGs are can start playing them anyways and provide constant feedback to development that the games should be less like MMORPGs and more like console/arcade games because 'you' think it's more fun that way.
It is a free market. If devs want my business, i don't see why i should not be playing it (assuming of course it is fun for me). And it is even more condenscending to even suggest you are the only one who should provide feedback. I am providing feedback. You can ignore me. It is a free world. I will leave it up to the devs to decide if they will listen to people like me.
If someone wants to play an MMORPG just to be an asshat and grief others, not socialize, not help others, not be friendly, but want others to be around to show off their gear to, fine. I find it gut wrenching and immature, but fine.... what I will not "shut up" about is that those kinds of people can progress while being that way because the games are now designed for them. What I will not shut up about is how I'm expected to shut up about this stuff, while these negative anti-social people are allowed to spew "noobs!" and "gtfo" and "omfg thats so ghey" without being told to shut up.
"immature" in ways to use entertainment? Is it immature to like Avenger more than the Schinder's Llist too? I find it silly to judge entertainment preferences.
What if i play MMO for the solo missions, and the AH trading? Is that "immature" too? I have not asked you to shut up. But like-wise, don't expect the other side to shut up.
People are people and there's always going to be bad-apples, but I miss the MMORPGs that embraced the nature of reputation among players. Shitty people lost interest and moved on to another game because their shitty antics didn't fly in the MMORPGs where the COMMUNITY ruled and the WORLD was impacted by players' actions and choices.
And i don't miss that. They are just games. ANd i don't need in-game reputation. i can always play with games across games. Who need in-game reputation when you have real-world friends, or reputation in the real world.
I believe this issue is well highlighted in the differences between Vanilla WoW and modern WoW... and some of these issues were re-visited in Rift. It's truly all about game design. I believe it's the ultimate conflict of world-based MMO's and end-game based MMO's (a difference far more significant, IMO, than "themepark" vs "sandbox"). Rift is a game I often called an end-game-based MMO with great world potential, and it had a fairly significant world presence for people who like to stumble about in the Old World, what's with the different rifts, secrets, rares, and artifacts and what not. Too bad the leveling speed is way too fast, the mentoring system has to make it work.
Vanilla WoW was a very slow and sinky game, which made all the difference. People need to be occupied. Not playing a tutorial to become occupied. Max level was some distant objective, getting there was a pain and frequently you wanted help. You constantly lacked both money and power. You had reasons to do things. You had reasons to want new items, loot, crafting materials, etc. In modern WoW that is not the case. 95% of modern WoW is super-soloable without breaking a sweat, without ever buying anything on the AH, without ever crafting, and without ever needing to go back and grind for a bit. This was possible in Vanilla, but it wasn't easy. So this made Vanilla 2 things: a relaxed game, because nobody was in a rush and everyone understood things take a while, from getting to a certain level to getting the money to buy that item/mount/skills/whatever; and a social game, because having a buddy help you with something was useful and made sense. People wanted help, and to help, because it was borderline necessary. People wanted to do dungeons because the cool items were there, and you needed them. People wanted to craft because it would make them just a little more powerful at that level for a while. All these things result in the person being far more world oriented, because they start thinking in the venue of: "What do I need to do in order to progress better?" In modern WoW, that question is never raised at all. And when a person is world oriented, they live in the world, and so they socialize with everyone else in that world. When they are end-game oriented, they don't live in the world, they put all their efforts into reaching the end game which is easy to reach, and then become world oriented in the endgame.
Another game that applied the concepts well was SWG. Combination of general game difficulty and player inter-dependency pretty much begs for sociability. You want a player doctor to properly and quickly heal, you you want a player dancer to correct your stats issues. You want a crafter and a trader to get good items. You can get away with soloing if you have to, though, which keeps the game from running into issues like some other games where you make 0 progress without a group - that puts too much strain on the player. But finding other players and working with them had huge advantages, which is exactly what increased the propensity to socialize. It's often not even about grouping, but about the economy, and elements such as shops, AH, shared crafting, shared buffs, etc., are key.
If a person needs nothing, if a person wants nothing, they will not talk to you. It's a terrible state for a person to be when they want nothing...
(if anyone is going to ask why people solo in EVE considering how much grouping can help in that game, I'll tell you why: huge propensity for griefing. Not just huge, absolutely enormous. Considering really, really stupid corporation rules such as permission to fire on corp mates and what not, coupled with high death penalties, as well as other things such as lack of any sort of reliable banking, any sort of reliable logistics and movement system, and the syndrome of "who cares, it's just a game" the possibility of being knifed in the back by a potential "buddy" is so high that soloing, especially multibox soloing, is automatically more reliable than anything else)
Originally posted by jesad
5. Voice operation programs...
This really hits close to home for me, personally. Excuse me while I go on a rant for why I hate voice chat when it's not needed (95% of the time).
I was used to chat and text for a long while, spent years on message boards, battle.net chatrooms, IRC, and just general chat channels of all sorts, and I always felt very comfortable in that medium. It gave me time to relax; like you mention, I could support many conversations at once, I don't expose myself, I didn't have to be hyper-attentive to make sure I hear everything since I could just scroll up and read it again. I generally found I prefer things explained in text far more than voice, and even in face-to-face conversations I often like to supplement what I say with a piece of paper if it's complex enough, why are video games any different? I usually reserved voice chat for people I was really close with and actually wanted to hear their voice.
And what's funny, I didn't really observe much of a reduction of efficiency. I learned to type really, really fast, if need be (I heard this was also true for EQ players). I could actually type and play at the same time very comfortably, I ran dungeons while typing, even, it's not some impossible feat people make it out to be. Most of the things you need to say with lighting speed are fairly rare and can be summarized as: "kill cocoon" or whatever. Or you would, you know, discuss how things should go BEFORE you start. These days people think if they don't have VC they can't coordinate at all, and the idea of coordination beforehand seems to have disappeared entirely. It's one of those things where technology makes you worse.
But the thing you bring up in your first paragraph and in point c. is the worst. Very rarely did I observe voice chat be used for good, mostly it was obnoxious and inconsiderate people "expressing" themselves. Drunk, racist, homophobic, rape jokes, stupid jokes about their penis size, calling everyone noobs, talking about how they hate all players, it never ends. Especially since personal voice chat is separate from the game (this is relevant for games like Dota 2 that have in-game voice chat). I have more tolerance for other things, but voice rooms filled with talks of their babies or cookies were only marginally better - it's still random mundane shit in your life that I would hate just as much if it was a real conversation. Then add to that the people who have really badly configured voice clients with their obnoxious friends in the background, super loud screeching music, screaming children, argh. Perhaps if you stuck to chat I'd never had to know any of these things but now that I know I am playing with some asshole who calls other players "rape child" I don't know if I can tolerate playing with you any longer.
Then add to that the issue of my own presentation. I'm female, and don't exactly have the best voice around. Whether it's the issue of me sounding female, or sounding like a little kid, or sounding bitchy, something almost always comes up about how my voice doesn't sound "normal" and I get random comments about it, with different degrees of endurance. In chat, nobody cares how I sound because text sounds the same, and in my days of text communication most people thought I was male, and, honestly, it was better that way.
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Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
From what I read it seems as if many of you are going to agree on game design and trends. Speaking of game design from a title that is over 10 years old, let's look at Asheron's Call. There's a system within the game that I "personally" have not seen in a MMORPG since my time playing in the world of Dereth.
Our communities are now more focused on guilds, but what about.....the allegiance system.
The allegiance system in Asheron's Call was the game's guild system. But the idea was to build personal relationships through incentives. In most guilds today a player has to prove his worth to a guild sometimes in order to become a member. This is more true especially for some guilds that focus on endgame content like raiding. In Asheron's Call the idea is the other way around; what can the allegiance(or monarchy) do for you?
The creation of an allegiance is based off a pledge from one player to another. More commonly between a experience player(the Patron) and a lower level player(the Vassal). The idea is that the patron provides assistance to his or her vassal. That means you would be taking a moment(sometimes lengthy) out of your game time to focus on the progression of the individual underneath you. What is the incentive of doing this? The experience the Vassal earns in his adventures, a pool of it is given to the Patron. Another product of the system is more a personal relationships being formed.
But the allegiance system is seen as a tree. Because a patron could have two vassals, but those two vassals could also have number of players underneath themselves as well, etc, etc, etc. If you were to be at the top of the tree in an allegiance with hundreds of active players, you would receive a hefty XP bonus.
I would love to see this type of system in larger gaming communities. Players would travel to low level areas actively recruiting newcomers. It wouldn't just be about what a guild could do for you, but what I personally can do for you.
Especially in my first 20 levels in Asheron's Call my patron would log on and before he did anything, the first thing on his agenda would be asking if I needed help. Often he would buff my gear, and stats so I could grind experience in higher level areas. There were days that he'd log on to give me rare crafting material or a random loot drop he thought might be useful in my adventure. It made my experience even more enjoyable because he saw me as a investment. And later on I did the same with my three vassals.
It does not really matter if you do it for fun or for profit, if you use them or distribute them amongst others for them to use - it's impacting games negatively.
Botting or using hacks is worst possible thing person can do in a multiplayer game, right next to buying gold or other stuff.
Bots and cheats rampage is one of two things that would make me stop playing even if I would get my 'dream mmorpg'. It is something that greatly contributed to demise of open world MMORPGs and one of very small subset of things that can ruin future mmorpgs of that type.
Catch up, man. You've been around here long enough and are active enough that you should know by now what this member is up to. Feel free to browse his post history if you have somehow managed to miss the zillions of spam posts and cries for attention.
This member has made it a hobby to make a mockery of these forums and the mods that should know better.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Trying to discuss anything without the majority's opinion serves what purpose?
Nari's opinion is what the majority in the market wants right now. That's just fact. You might not like it but tough, fact doesn't change just because you don't like them.
If you want a bunch of yes-man all saying 'Yes, get off my lawn!' types go ahead, just remember this is public forum so not everyone will agree.
Like I said previously, if someone can counter the fact 'The original poster is the minority so there's less choices for you' I'd love to hear it.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Jpnz, can I quote you in my sig? Cuz this is hilarity in its purest form. About four posters constantly spout "F2P" spam such that they sure sound like the same person. Everyone else here disagrees with them constantly. But ya I'm sure you few guys speak for the majority.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
This is the problem.
No offense to you personally, but your statement pretty much pinpoints the issue over the last 10 years of MMO. "Back then" in smaller communities, you were the minority. The stand-offish, anti-social, "why do I want to talk to these people?" attitude was not shared among the majority of the playerbase in mmo's because the MMORPG players WANTED to socialize with each other.
Building communities, friendships, popularity, prestige, social reputation, comradery all were the things that drew people to these games. Not cool gear. not raids. not gear scores, not damage meters and certainly not to belittle newer players by coining the term "noob"
Today, these POSITIVE traits are considered as nothing more than "bad design" or somehow a hassle, and unnecessary. The new generation of developers as well as the influx of console gamers that are now the majority of "MMORPG Community" simply don't understand what the problem is because they were never there in the first place to see why these things were important.
People just did not start to play MMORPGs back then with the mind to ignore everyone who's not in their clique/guild/crew.
That mindset is horribly unwelcoming, antisocial, and doesn't really benefit the gameplay experience of others.
But that is all they have. If they have numbers, market research, or anything but their own opinions, they would have use that already.
I don't play games to benefit the gameplay experience of others.
And before you spew the same "this is the problem" .... it is what it is. Human nature. MMORPGs are entertainment products, not social engineering to better the human race.
If people want to have fun without socialization, that is their prerogative. It is just a preference. No worse than yours.
Who's talking about bettering the human race? Don't resort to hyperbole over such a comment, it's really not that intense.
You can't deny, however, that the reason is there. Yes, everyone plays games for their own reasons, fine, I have no problem with you saying that or even the fact that it is the truth when it comes to the nature of gaming. That's not my point at all.
What I am saying is the reason things are the way they are now, is because the games' designers have decided to cater to the BAD parts. The ugly, selfish, narcissistic parts in ALL OF US HUMANS. These traits are now the target. The people that don't care about their impact on the people around them, i.e. thieves, liars, con artists, stupid people, immature people, racists, bigots, trendy people, pop-culture fashion victims, sociopaths etc, all seem to have games designed with them in mind. In EQ1 or AC, or DAoC, or UO, or SWG or any of the games that defined the standard years ago, the most important form of currency was REPUTATION. Not the shallow "rep bar" reputation, but the real, person-to-person reputation. The games were designed to be played freely as each person wanted to, but they were also designed so that the COMMUNITY themselves could effect and react to bad apples. Now, all we have is an /ignore function.
Exactly. This is another aspect people don't seem to pay attention to. However, I can't say I fully agree with this, simply because I think there's much more to it than that. I do agree, however, that everyone does exactly how you described.
They rush through levels trying to get to "end game" where all the cool kids are. Everything along the way is trivial.
I don't think this is because of the "existence" of levels. I think it's because of the lazy design choice to make a lifeless, empty game with temporary content that we only see/interact with 1 time on our way to the "top" where the deep content awaits. I think it's because developers think it's a good idea to put a carrot at the end of a stick.
I think it's because developers/investors today don't want to settle with the profits they will get from making good, long lasting virtual worlds where community is EVERYTHING because they would rather have much fatter pockets by making games for adolescent teens with short attention spans that use the words 'noob' and 'gay' in every sentence who also crave constant violence and action.
I mean, really... If you sit back and look at the way games are being made (majority of them in this genre over the last 5-6 years) it's clear that this genre has just become a multiplayer action zone with RPG "elements" thrown in to try and explain things so it doesn't seem ludicrous that you can't tea-bag everyone on your screen at level 1.
Who decides what is a good part and what is a bad part? By labeling it the bad part, you already pass a judgment of what good "game behavior" should be.
There is no such thing. Games are for entertainment. So if people not want to socialize in games, so what?
The most important part of a game is whether it is fun because that is what the goal of an entertainment product is ... to entertain. If people choose fighting stuff instead of socialization ... that means that they like fighting stuff more ... there is zero reason to force them to socialize in an entertainment product.
Let me put it another way. If "not caring" about others is more entertaining, what is the problem of letting people do that in their entertainment? They already have to learn to live with others in the real world. Games are what let people escape from the real world.
I doubt it.
Leveling, time-wise, is a small part of the game. MOst time is spent on dungeons & raids (or even instanced pvp) at end game.
Do you see people socialize more then? No, they wave around their purple gear epleen, and wait for the next dungeon/raid/bg to pop.
Ok dude, you're arguing just to argue, imho.
If you are feeling lonely and talkative, would you go to a Library and make a bunch of noise just because it has people there?
If you are hungry and crave Pizza, would you go to Mc Donald's and call all the employees and customers Noobs because they don't have the uber pizza slices you crave?
The point is, we're not talking about all videogames here. Well, I'm not. You are. I'm talking about MMORPGs.
If someone doesn't want to be social AT ALL, why would they choose such a medium for entertainment, and then open their mouths about how it should change into something they should have chosen instead in the first place?
If you want pizza go to Pizza Hut or somewhere you can get what you desire. Don't go fucking up the way they do things at McDonald's.
If you want people to talk to and party with, don't go to a Library and expect anything other than Library atmosphere.
There are other venues people can go to that already offer the experiences they are looking for without joining the MMORPG community and tainting it and turning it into something it shouldn't have to change into.
May be they like the combat?
May be they like the setting?
May be they like to have others around to show off their gear?
May be they like to trade on the AH?
There are tons of reasons other than being social to play a MMORPG. If not, why would solo-ing in MMORPG be so popular?
I never said solo-ing in an MMORPG shouldn't be allowed. I myself am someone who often plays solo when I log in to something when I don't have a lot of time to play.
All I'm saying is that the games themselves today, by design, offer more reward and gratification to people who are anti-social. When I play alone, and when many others I know personally play solo, it's not to avoid interacting with people. If someone asks for help, help is given. If someone wants to come along, they are welcome to. If someone wants to share something, there's nothing wrong with that.
What I see as a bad thing is games being designed to house thousands of players all on the server together, yet, giving them functions that negate any reason for them to talk to each other.
Convenience is what i'm talking about, and in this case, all the changes with "convenience" in mind are just ruining the beauty and unique culture of MMORPGs. Any XBOX live or PSN game is indistinguishable from an MMORPG now because MMORPGs and console games are now both being designed with the same goals in mind, trying to attract everyone and their mother instead of making a game from group A, a game for group B and a game for group C, respectively.
The downtime, travel, housing, looking for groups, adventures, exploration, role-play, story telling, challenges, IMBALANCE, complexity all are things that imho really NEED to be in an MMORPG in order for it to develop into something more than just some videogame.
If people like you, nariusseldon, and others don't like these aspects of MMORPG, that's fine and I can't say there's anything wrong with that. What I don't like is this notion that people that don't like what MMORPGs are can start playing them anyways and provide constant feedback to development that the games should be less like MMORPGs and more like console/arcade games because 'you' think it's more fun that way.
If someone wants to play an MMORPG just to be an asshat and grief others, not socialize, not help others, not be friendly, but want others to be around to show off their gear to, fine. I find it gut wrenching and immature, but fine.... what I will not "shut up" about is that those kinds of people can progress while being that way because the games are now designed for them. What I will not shut up about is how I'm expected to shut up about this stuff, while these negative anti-social people are allowed to spew "noobs!" and "gtfo" and "omfg thats so ghey" without being told to shut up.
People are people and there's always going to be bad-apples, but I miss the MMORPGs that embraced the nature of reputation among players. Shitty people lost interest and moved on to another game because their shitty antics didn't fly in the MMORPGs where the COMMUNITY ruled and the WORLD was impacted by players' actions and choices.
I believe this issue is well highlighted in the differences between Vanilla WoW and modern WoW... and some of these issues were re-visited in Rift. It's truly all about game design. I believe it's the ultimate conflict of world-based MMO's and end-game based MMO's (a difference far more significant, IMO, than "themepark" vs "sandbox"). Rift is a game I often called an end-game-based MMO with great world potential, and it had a fairly significant world presence for people who like to stumble about in the Old World, what's with the different rifts, secrets, rares, and artifacts and what not. Too bad the leveling speed is way too fast, the mentoring system has to make it work.
Vanilla WoW was a very slow and sinky game, which made all the difference. People need to be occupied. Not playing a tutorial to become occupied. Max level was some distant objective, getting there was a pain and frequently you wanted help. You constantly lacked both money and power. You had reasons to do things. You had reasons to want new items, loot, crafting materials, etc. In modern WoW that is not the case. 95% of modern WoW is super-soloable without breaking a sweat, without ever buying anything on the AH, without ever crafting, and without ever needing to go back and grind for a bit. This was possible in Vanilla, but it wasn't easy. So this made Vanilla 2 things: a relaxed game, because nobody was in a rush and everyone understood things take a while, from getting to a certain level to getting the money to buy that item/mount/skills/whatever; and a social game, because having a buddy help you with something was useful and made sense. People wanted help, and to help, because it was borderline necessary. People wanted to do dungeons because the cool items were there, and you needed them. People wanted to craft because it would make them just a little more powerful at that level for a while. All these things result in the person being far more world oriented, because they start thinking in the venue of: "What do I need to do in order to progress better?" In modern WoW, that question is never raised at all. And when a person is world oriented, they live in the world, and so they socialize with everyone else in that world. When they are end-game oriented, they don't live in the world, they put all their efforts into reaching the end game which is easy to reach, and then become world oriented in the endgame.
Another game that applied the concepts well was SWG. Combination of general game difficulty and player inter-dependency pretty much begs for sociability. You want a player doctor to properly and quickly heal, you you want a player dancer to correct your stats issues. You want a crafter and a trader to get good items. You can get away with soloing if you have to, though, which keeps the game from running into issues like some other games where you make 0 progress without a group - that puts too much strain on the player. But finding other players and working with them had huge advantages, which is exactly what increased the propensity to socialize. It's often not even about grouping, but about the economy, and elements such as shops, AH, shared crafting, shared buffs, etc., are key.
If a person needs nothing, if a person wants nothing, they will not talk to you. It's a terrible state for a person to be when they want nothing...
(if anyone is going to ask why people solo in EVE considering how much grouping can help in that game, I'll tell you why: huge propensity for griefing. Not just huge, absolutely enormous. Considering really, really stupid corporation rules such as permission to fire on corp mates and what not, coupled with high death penalties, as well as other things such as lack of any sort of reliable banking, any sort of reliable logistics and movement system, and the syndrome of "who cares, it's just a game" the possibility of being knifed in the back by a potential "buddy" is so high that soloing, especially multibox soloing, is automatically more reliable than anything else)
This really hits close to home for me, personally. Excuse me while I go on a rant for why I hate voice chat when it's not needed (95% of the time).
I was used to chat and text for a long while, spent years on message boards, battle.net chatrooms, IRC, and just general chat channels of all sorts, and I always felt very comfortable in that medium. It gave me time to relax; like you mention, I could support many conversations at once, I don't expose myself, I didn't have to be hyper-attentive to make sure I hear everything since I could just scroll up and read it again. I generally found I prefer things explained in text far more than voice, and even in face-to-face conversations I often like to supplement what I say with a piece of paper if it's complex enough, why are video games any different? I usually reserved voice chat for people I was really close with and actually wanted to hear their voice.
And what's funny, I didn't really observe much of a reduction of efficiency. I learned to type really, really fast, if need be (I heard this was also true for EQ players). I could actually type and play at the same time very comfortably, I ran dungeons while typing, even, it's not some impossible feat people make it out to be. Most of the things you need to say with lighting speed are fairly rare and can be summarized as: "kill cocoon" or whatever. Or you would, you know, discuss how things should go BEFORE you start. These days people think if they don't have VC they can't coordinate at all, and the idea of coordination beforehand seems to have disappeared entirely. It's one of those things where technology makes you worse.
But the thing you bring up in your first paragraph and in point c. is the worst. Very rarely did I observe voice chat be used for good, mostly it was obnoxious and inconsiderate people "expressing" themselves. Drunk, racist, homophobic, rape jokes, stupid jokes about their penis size, calling everyone noobs, talking about how they hate all players, it never ends. Especially since personal voice chat is separate from the game (this is relevant for games like Dota 2 that have in-game voice chat). I have more tolerance for other things, but voice rooms filled with talks of their babies or cookies were only marginally better - it's still random mundane shit in your life that I would hate just as much if it was a real conversation. Then add to that the people who have really badly configured voice clients with their obnoxious friends in the background, super loud screeching music, screaming children, argh. Perhaps if you stuck to chat I'd never had to know any of these things but now that I know I am playing with some asshole who calls other players "rape child" I don't know if I can tolerate playing with you any longer.
Then add to that the issue of my own presentation. I'm female, and don't exactly have the best voice around. Whether it's the issue of me sounding female, or sounding like a little kid, or sounding bitchy, something almost always comes up about how my voice doesn't sound "normal" and I get random comments about it, with different degrees of endurance. In chat, nobody cares how I sound because text sounds the same, and in my days of text communication most people thought I was male, and, honestly, it was better that way.