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Time Sink =/= Competitive Level.

ChrisboxChrisbox Member UncommonPosts: 1,729

(Long Post Warning)

The key to pushing forward in the MMO space.   

Looking back on a lot of previous games I've played, the one thing that I think brought their downfall or ultimately is leading to it this day, is that your time spent = your competitive capability.    

If player A did not grind as much as player B, they are at a disadvantage, regardless of skill level.  This is well known to be found in many MMO's.

Gamer's time on their hands does not and won't change their attitude or passion towards a particular game or genre. A competitive player, whether or not he has X hours to spend on the game or not,  wants to play to win with his/her  team or alone the victor depending on the scenario.  But now one can see how hard that is when there's about 100 prequisites you must meet in order to do content, content that a serious minded gamer would be interested in.

It's not about that anymore, I think at this point in the industry, this is whats going to be the big shift.  Whether or not you enjoy the games, games such as Guild wars 2 or League of legends preach this message, and I do thank them very much for making it clear.  Blizzard and many others approach to appealing to more people was, Difficulty levels for all.  If you have less time do easy content, more time do harder.  There are so many voids to that formula.  But games such as GW2 show different methods, you can enter structured rated pvp your first day of buying the game, no grind.   You can participate in large scale battles, day one and feel like your making a difference.  Huge bosses, start at the low levels, and only get better by max level.  

These are the kinds of things we need more of.  Now a lot of people don't like challenging content being thrown at them at lower levels and want to time sink.   I propose in addition to low level bosses pvp and such, Dynamic end game bosses, something we see being attempted by Blizzards flex raiding.  Essentially I see the perfect system being from 2 people - X people , X being 10 ideally or maybe even more.  Getting two people is not hard, organizing 10 players to get the job done would require that time sink, but you would gain greater reward from it, receive greater challenge etc.

The MMO juggernaut, WoW itself, lost droves of subscribers.  They try to balance content based on this----> time spent=determined difficulty level= characters progression rate.  There is no flow chart to that, it is one linear path.  You may have the potential to destroy the hardest boss, but only the time for LFR.  Therefore leaving LFR players as LFR players, and people with time on their hands as top tier.  No depth or consistency.  

I strongly believe The future of Industry changing MMO's, lies in accesibility not through difficulty, but dynamic or scaling systems of content and progression.  It is the key to providing something for everyone, without telling them what that something is and without limiting their skill progression and character progression.  

Played-Everything
Playing-LoL

Comments

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower Member Posts: 1,245

    For a large portion of gamers yes but not for all.

    I agree GW2 did a very good job showing other ways but believe me in 2 years time its a dungeon raiding game treadmill gear grinder.

    And then slowly transform into ezmode get it all instant cookie cutter game, ive seen ingame and forums and that will happen.

    In 5 years time all the new generation gamers (after launch WoW) are sick of this and demand hardcore timesink comes back.

    This silly 7years to 80 years can play these ezmode mmo's must stop its sickening:P

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,576
    Ah..yeah. You want MMOS that are designed like a sport, fair for everyone and based on individual skill. I still prefer those that give an advantage to those who play more, or even pay more than new joiners.

    You brought up GW2, definitely not my style of MMO. EVE is my favorite model, rewarding players for being subbed, but leveling off so that after a time I was as competitive as anyone in my trained ship tiers or crafting skills.

    Even now, I'm back to playing DAOC where I am at a huge disadvantage right now, but with enough time and effort I will be able to close most of the gap others have on me.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • ChrisboxChrisbox Member UncommonPosts: 1,729
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Ah..yeah. You want MMOS that are designed like a sport, fair for everyone and based on individual skill. I still prefer those that give an advantage to those who play more, or even pay more than new joiners.

    You brought up GW2, definitely not my style of MMO. EVE is my favorite model, rewarding players for being subbed, but leveling off so that after a time I was as competitive as anyone in my trained ship tiers or crafting skills.

    Even now, I'm back to playing DAOC where I am at a huge disadvantage right now, but with enough time and effort I will be able to close most of the gap others have on me.

    Though sport, or certain sports I should say, Also have that time sink feel you mention.

    If player A isn't working out for an entire off season and player B is, Player B is probably gonna be the better looking one when it comes to the depth chart.  

    Thats what scaling does so well, like for example GW2 WvW, you'll feel competitive because your bolstered but you'll never hit 80 and unlock all your potential and skills unless you dump time into your character, and it may not be the best example or best implementation of the system but you understand what i'm trying to portray.  

    Played-Everything
    Playing-LoL

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    my 2 cents..

         From where I sit, I agree with all, yet see things a little different then most..  I'm not a fan of newbies having equal ground, yet there should be a path or ability such as mentoring that allows them to take part in certain events.. Yes, they will be gimped, but it's better then not being allowed at all..  My huge issue with time = advantage is because of the disparity between progression stages.. WoW was notorious for doing this.. Tier 2 gear was OP compared to Tier 1.. At each stage of progression the disparity from one item to an upgrade just wasn't a 1% increase, but a 10% bonus.. I haven't played WoW  since the LK.. I remember when a tank having 20K used to mean something, but now I hear tanks have 200,000 hp or more?  In just 10 levels?  But I guess that is the formula they like to use, and it works, but just not for me.. I never was a fan of gear grinds that turn you into God's..

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Ah..yeah. You want MMOS that are designed like a sport, fair for everyone and based on individual skill.
     

    That would work for an MMO geared towards moms and little kids, but I think it's too hardcore of a concept for the average MMO gamer.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kyleran Ah..yeah. You want MMOS that are designed like a sport, fair for everyone and based on individual skill.  
    That would work for an MMO geared towards moms and little kids, but I think it's too hardcore of a concept for the average MMO gamer.


    I dunno, LoL is pretty much fair for everyone, there are winners and losers, and there are millions of people out there playing. I'm not sure how you'd shoehorn that idea into a PvE MMORPG though. It seems like it would end up being something like Farmville or Tiny Monsters, but without the cash shop maybe.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ScalplessScalpless Member UncommonPosts: 1,426
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Kyleran Ah..yeah. You want MMOS that are designed like a sport, fair for everyone and based on individual skill.  
    That would work for an MMO geared towards moms and little kids, but I think it's too hardcore of a concept for the average MMO gamer.

    I dunno, LoL is pretty much fair for everyone, there are winners and losers, and there are millions of people out there playing. I'm not sure how you'd shoehorn that idea into a PvE MMORPG though. It seems like it would end up being something like Farmville or Tiny Monsters, but without the cash shop maybe.
     

    Guild Wars 1. Sure, it's not a real MMO, but that doesn't matter much in this case. Give people good, challenging and interesting content and they'll play.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Scalpless
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Kyleran Ah..yeah. You want MMOS that are designed like a sport, fair for everyone and based on individual skill.  
    That would work for an MMO geared towards moms and little kids, but I think it's too hardcore of a concept for the average MMO gamer.
    I dunno, LoL is pretty much fair for everyone, there are winners and losers, and there are millions of people out there playing. I'm not sure how you'd shoehorn that idea into a PvE MMORPG though. It seems like it would end up being something like Farmville or Tiny Monsters, but without the cash shop maybe.
     

    Guild Wars 1. Sure, it's not a real MMO, but that doesn't matter much in this case. Give people good, challenging and interesting content and they'll play.

    I agree with both of you that LoL and Guild Wars are fair for everyone and based on individual skill. Neither is considered an MMO, however.  People bring different expectations to different types of games.

    While fair is something that is generally expected, when playing an MMO there seems to be an expectation that /played should dictate some type of advantage. Additionally, there is a certain amount of dislike for player skill over character stats when it comes to competitive gameplay.

    This is all very different from the expectations brought to other types of games. In a MOBA or FPS, you expect one's skill and what they learned to be the determining factors in their success, not the fact that they simply existed longer.

    On the surface it may seem odd that players would perceive MMOs to be any different than other games, but the persistent nature of an MMO instills in a player a sense of built up equity. It is the feeling that they have accumulated or amassed a certain amount of items or points, and that those items or points should carry weight in their interactions.

    This is why the Puzzle Pirates advancement system wouldn't really work for most MMO gamers. To advance, you must improve. Individual skill is the primary factor in competition, meaning that it is possible for someone who doesn't improve to be forever mediocre... and people don't pay 15 dollars a month to be mediocre.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ScalplessScalpless Member UncommonPosts: 1,426
    That's true, but some people obviously liked GW1. I don't know if they're your typical MMO players, but I bet GW1 fans would play another game just like it, except a real MMO.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Scalpless Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by Kyleran Ah..yeah. You want MMOS that are designed like a sport, fair for everyone and based on individual skill.  
    That would work for an MMO geared towards moms and little kids, but I think it's too hardcore of a concept for the average MMO gamer.
    I dunno, LoL is pretty much fair for everyone, there are winners and losers, and there are millions of people out there playing. I'm not sure how you'd shoehorn that idea into a PvE MMORPG though. It seems like it would end up being something like Farmville or Tiny Monsters, but without the cash shop maybe.  
    Guild Wars 1. Sure, it's not a real MMO, but that doesn't matter much in this case. Give people good, challenging and interesting content and they'll play.
    I agree with both of you that LoL and Guild Wars are fair for everyone and based on individual skill. Neither is considered an MMO, however.  People bring different expectations to different types of games.

    While fair is something that is generally expected, when playing an MMO there seems to be an expectation that /played should dictate some type of advantage. Additionally, there is a certain amount of dislike for player skill over character stats when it comes to competitive gameplay.

    This is all very different from the expectations brought to other types of games. In a MOBA or FPS, you expect one's skill and what they learned to be the determining factors in their success, not the fact that they simply existed longer.

    On the surface it may seem odd that players would perceive MMOs to be any different than other games, but the persistent nature of an MMO instills in a player a sense of built up equity. It is the feeling that they have accumulated or amassed a certain amount of items or points, and that those items or points should carry weight in their interactions.

    This is why the Puzzle Pirates advancement system wouldn't really work for most MMO gamers. To advance, you must improve. Individual skill is the primary factor in competition, meaning that it is possible for someone who doesn't improve to be forever mediocre... and people don't pay 15 dollars a month to be mediocre.

     




    I would add to this that role playing depends a bit on that built up equity in a game. It breaks the fantasy when the awesomeness of your mage depends solely on your ability to hit keys. When the power is centered around the character, it maintains the fantasy that the mage is awesome.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Ah..yeah. You want MMOS that are designed like a sport, fair for everyone and based on individual skill.

    Original concept behind GW1, right?

    Of course, they sold out a bit to wow player pressure and started making gear (hence acquisition time) matter...so did CoH (just about the only gear-less game...originally) really.

    Players are just too used to the concept of time invested > power. You can rant about the purity of "fair, balanced" competition, but there aren't a great many pvp players who won't take any advantage they can manage to acquire, any time they can get one.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TanonTanon Member UncommonPosts: 176
    Originally posted by Chrisbox

    games such as Guild wars 2 or League of legends

    League of Legends? Really? The game where if you don't grind your RP or buy it with real cash, you can't use the best champions and don't have the same selection as someone else? Where whenever a new champion is released, it basically has to be OP otherwise no one is going to buy it, and if you don't have the RP saved up and aren't willing to pay real cash for it, you can't use this champion until you manage to grind for it?

  • ApraxisApraxis Member UncommonPosts: 1,509
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Ah..yeah. You want MMOS that are designed like a sport, fair for everyone and based on individual skill.

    Original concept behind GW1, right?

    Of course, they sold out a bit to wow player pressure and started making gear (hence acquisition time) matter...so did CoH (just about the only gear-less game...originally) really.

    Players are just too used to the concept of time invested > power. You can rant about the purity of "fair, balanced" competition, but there aren't a great many pvp players who won't take any advantage they can manage to acquire, any time they can get one.

    If it is available? Yes, of course. We as pvp players have to. BUT.. usually pvp players leave such games.. because it isnt fun.

    1. Either you have top gear/power and no or almost no competition, which gets boring rather fast.

    2. Or you fight against someone with exceptional gear, and it gets boring to just lose, because of the power gap of the available gear.

    WoW was never a good pvp game. And in that regard most(all) MMORPGs usually suck when it comes down to pvp.

    There is a reason why games like LoL, DoTA, BF Series, CS have a lot more player than any MMORPG(including WoW) and last usually much longer than any MMORPG(including UO).

    And it is not the massivness of MMOs or the persistence. If anything those two are more or less the only reason why a lot of pvp players bother at all with MMORPGs. But hands down.. any battleground(except GW1 but it isnt a MMO) in MMORPGs just lose against any usual Multiplayer game in any regard imaginable(players overall, hours played in average, fun, esport)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Originally posted by Apraxis

    There is a reason why games like LoL, DoTA, BF Series, CS have a lot more player than any MMORPG(including WoW) and last usually much longer than any MMORPG(including UO).

    And it is not the massivness of MMOs or the persistence. If anything those two are more or less the only reason why a lot of pvp players bother at all with MMORPGs. But hands down.. any battleground(except GW1 but it isnt a MMO) in MMORPGs just lose against any usual Multiplayer game in any regard imaginable(players overall, hours played in average, fun, esport)

    That is the thing ... being massive is not necessarily fun. PS2 can make a massive battle fun .. but at the same time, there are a lot of much smaller battle that is fun .. and people want to be fair (e-sport).

    Also look at WoT .. it is way more successful than many MMOs just because it got the combat pvp right, and ditch all the other parts.

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