I play EVE to relax after a hard days work. I get satisfaction from playing the game and enjoying the company, I accept that a death penalty (podded in a null sec bubble) is part of the game.
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
Originally posted by Doogiehowser I play games to relax after hard day of work. So my satisfaction comes from playing the game itself without un necessary time sinks like 'death penality'.
Originally posted by Attend4455
I play EVE to relax after a hard days work. I get satisfaction from playing the game and enjoying the company, I accept that a death penalty (podded in a null sec bubble) is part of the game.
And that is the beauty of the genre: caters to all play styles and no one preference is the "correct" one.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
I play EVE to relax after a hard days work. I get satisfaction from playing the game and enjoying the company, I accept that a death penalty (podded in a null sec bubble) is part of the game.
OP isn't talking about EVE style of death penality. It is actually very soft since you can insure your ship and get the money back. Hardly any losses and for those who have been playing for years it is like a drop in the bucket.
Anyways, death penalty doe not make a game challenging. People often equate time sinks with challenge which is wrong.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Originally posted by laokoko I play game for the challenge. What's so challenging about "farming for 10 hours" everytime you die.
I understand that, but let's not be ridiculous.
If I go play a certain UO today, and I take my smith/miner and mine for 10 hours, lol _ I will have enough ingots to make like 40 sets of GM armor I bet.
So I can have this armor stashed in my home, or in the bank and re-enter a dungeon 40 times with that work, and even with full loot drop whether its to mobs or to pvp death, I'm set. I rez and go back get another set and start swinging again, each set of armor really only costing me maybe 15 minutes of work, max.
I'm just saying that death SHOULD have consequence, at least more so then most mmorpgs today have.
Now, if a game is well made, I don't think it would be hard to implement things like a level 50 killing a level 15 and thus not have the poor victim drop loot. The game could also just as easily have a check for things like internet lag, high ping time, or lost internet connection, and also make it so no item drop happens in that situation.
My point is that if you die in World of Warcraft the death penalty IN MY OPINION is way too shallow. Not enough risk. A player can simply walk back and rez in a matter of seconds generally with no item loss or any real penalty. This creates a game that is much more "reward, reward, reward" rather then real "risk vs reward". And since I have already stated I believe that the RISK vs REWARD needs to be balanced, well in games like WoW, the balance is far too much weighted on the "reward" side of that.
Originally posted by laokoko I play game for the challenge. What's so challenging about "farming for 10 hours" everytime you die.
I understand that, but let's not be ridiculous.
If I go play a certain UO today, and I take my smith/miner and mine for 10 hours, lol _ I will have enough ingots to make like 40 sets of GM armor I bet.
So I can have this armor stashed in my home, or in the bank and re-enter a dungeon 40 times with that work, and even with full loot drop whether its to mobs or to pvp death, I'm set. I rez and go back get another set and start swinging again, each set of armor really only costing me maybe 15 minutes of work, max.
I'm just saying that death SHOULD have consequence, at least more so then most mmorpgs today have.
Now, if a game is well made, I don't think it would be hard to implement things like a level 50 killing a level 15 and thus not have the poor victim drop loot. The game could also just as easily have a check for things like internet lag, high ping time, or lost internet connection, and also make it so no item drop happens in that situation.
My point is that if you die in World of Warcraft the death penalty IN MY OPINION is way too shallow. Not enough risk. A player can simply walk back and rez in a matter of seconds generally with no item loss or any real penalty. This creates a game that is much more "reward, reward, reward" rather then real "risk vs reward". And since I have already stated I believe that the RISK vs REWARD needs to be balanced, well in games like WoW, the balance is far too much weighted on the "reward" side of that.
- Zaxx
Do you know how many times I die trying to kill certain boss in wow or those wow clone? I already spend hours and hours wiping on the boss. So your saying on top of that I need 10 hours farming because I wipe 40 times on a raid boss in a day?
Games like UO are complete different genre compare to wow. I have no problem with full loot pvp, I played darkfall and eve. Nothing wrong with that. But stop talking like everygame should be like that.
Why do you need death penalty in a pve game where the game focus on one thing, which is to kill the dungeon and raid boss.
Your playing a sheep vs wolf, guild vs guild destroying each other type of game. Full loot make sense since you want people to be afraid of dieing.
I already don't want to die trying to kill hard pve boss in wow type of game. Those arn't necessary.
Those are just completely different games.
Do you think there need to be death penalty in starcraft, league of legend, or wow arena? No right? It's silly to tell them everytime they loss a pvp match they need to mine for 15 minutes to do another match.
Originally posted by Axehilt Originally posted by IcewhiteReally depends how you define "skill". MMOs generally include a lot of 'knowledge' skills. How to acquire x, how to spec for y, where to collect z gear. Building a character to win in pvp (or pve) is a knowledge skill, so is learning the abilities of your opponents and other classes, loads of min-maxing. Generating income in mmos is an undervalued skill (and my favorite mini-game), aimed at avoiding "grinding" but still generating substantial game wealth. And of course, there are reflex skills. How to apply what you know. And yes, overcoming horrible UIs.
Right, skill is decision-making and execution. MMORPGs involve skill, obviously. Not every fight does (if you are so outgeared that you can just walk up and autoattack something to death) but most do.
Dealing with a horrible UI is often skill too. For example if walking forward wasn't just a matter of pressing "W" but instead required some complex sequence of 15 letters typed in order, that would actually require a fair amount of skill. But clearly not all forms of imperfect UI result in fun skill depth.
A "horrible" UI is never the goal, but rather a UI which enables a set of interesting decisions. This usually means the UI is intentionally limited, because it won't play the entire game for you -- it relies on you to make the decisions, because otherwise the game .
Maybe a clearer example is macros, and how if they're too feature-rich they can essentially play the game for you -- with one button you can perform the ideal rotation or always target the right monster -- which is obviously not ideal for a game where those things are intended to be player decisions and not automated.
@IceWhite - I can write an application for the business I work for, using a three letter acronym that when said in casual conversation references a curse word, and then wait and see how long it takes people to notice*. That doesn't mean I've exhibited excellent coding skills. It might mean I've exhibited my f*ckoffery skills, but only maybe.
The idea behind skill is that people with more skill will be more successful and people with less skill will be less successful. In MMORPG I will not deny that some basic human skills are required to play, but the bar for success has been set pretty low. The primary difference between people at the "top" and the people who aren't at the "top" in MMORPG is the amount of time they're willing to spend in the game. The skill difference between older MMORPGs and newer MMORPGs can be described as either grinding through content you've already done to get back to the point that you can perhaps kill a boss, or grinding through the boss's content time after time so you can perhaps kill them. So while it does take some sort of skill to play an MMORPG, claiming it takes more skill for older MMORPG, or more skill to play MMORPG as opposed to other video games is just trying to make oneself feel better about wasting so much time in a game.
PvP in MMORPG is a possible exception to the patience rule, except it's not. The person who is willing to spend more time getting better gear will win. That's just how MMORPG combat works. Better gear = win.
* Never. The answer is nobody will ever notice, and if they do, they will never acknowledge that the three letter acronym references a curse word. Also, the application worked perfectly and the business used it for several years longer than they should have. I'm now starting to see why some companies write software that breaks after awhile.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by laokoko Do you know how many times I die trying to kill certain boss in wow or those wow clone? I already spend hours and hours wiping on the boss. So your saying on top of that I need 10 hours farming because I wipe 40 times on a raid boss in a day?Games like UO are complete different genre compare to wow. I have no problem with full loot pvp, I played darkfall and eve. Nothing wrong with that. But stop talking like everygame should be like that.Why do you need death penalty in a pve game where the game focus on one thing, which is to kill the dungeon and raid boss. Your playing a sheep vs wolf, guild vs guild destroying each other type of game. Full loot make sense since you want people to be afraid of dieing.I already don't want to die trying to kill hard pve boss in wow type of game. Those arn't necessary.Those are just completely different games. Do you think there need to be death penalty in starcraft, league of legend, or wow arena? No right? It's silly to tell them everytime they loss a pvp match they need to mine for 15 minutes to do another match.It's just different genre.
While I would agree with you that World of Warcraft is a completely different type of game, and while I also agree with you that World of Warcraft wouldn't be nearly as successful or brilliant as it is if it had death consequences... I think what I am really saying is this........
Why, oh Why cant those of us that like that very different type of mmo PvP sandbox game get a game for us as brilliant and smooth and as polished as Wow is for the themepark crowd?
There are many different players. And there are different games. But since Dark Age of Camelot went down hill... players on my side of the fence have been left with pretty much nothing but GARBAGE for the last 9 or 10 years. Darkfall is the best we have, sad to say. Do you know how many new mmo games I have purchased and hoped would be the next great Ultima Online or Asherons Call? If I knew exactly, I'd tell you, but it's gotta be well over 50, not even including the many dozens of mmo betas and free trials I have played.
Maybe I'm crazy, but I DO think if a AAA sandlot PvP death-consequence mmo were to be made (Basically a new Ultima Online) with polished 3D graphics, very few minor bugs and glitches, I think it would do VERY WELL. Granted, it certainly wouldn't even come close to being a "wow-killer" but I bet it could easily top 500,000 or perhaps 1 million active subscribers.
Different strokes for different folks. But it's time there was a AAA mmo game made to scratch our backs is all I am saying. The themepark mmo crowd already has about 192 games to choose from, many of them are very very good as well!
A few people have brought up good points that its probably not gonna work to make one end all-be all mmo for both types of crowds. If they make a great pvp game, the pve crowd will feel unloved or an imbalance. Same if they try to put PvP into a great PvE game, it just ends up feeling like a cheap "tack on" or "gimmick" to sell more copies.
But where is "our" game? It's about time. I look at games like ArcheAge and have a little hope. But then there is so much in this style of mmo that is just hype and total trash, ie Mortal Online, Dark n Light, Mourning, and now look at Greed Monger. Haha! What a joke! While we get crap like Mortal Online and jokes like Greed Monger, the themepark crowd gets stellar mmo releases every year like WoW, Rift, Aion, Guild Wars 2, and many, many more. You get my point.
Comments
I play EVE to relax after a hard days work. I get satisfaction from playing the game and enjoying the company, I accept that a death penalty (podded in a null sec bubble) is part of the game.
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
And that is the beauty of the genre: caters to all play styles and no one preference is the "correct" one.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
OP isn't talking about EVE style of death penality. It is actually very soft since you can insure your ship and get the money back. Hardly any losses and for those who have been playing for years it is like a drop in the bucket.
Anyways, death penalty doe not make a game challenging. People often equate time sinks with challenge which is wrong.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
I understand that, but let's not be ridiculous.
If I go play a certain UO today, and I take my smith/miner and mine for 10 hours, lol _ I will have enough ingots to make like 40 sets of GM armor I bet.
So I can have this armor stashed in my home, or in the bank and re-enter a dungeon 40 times with that work, and even with full loot drop whether its to mobs or to pvp death, I'm set. I rez and go back get another set and start swinging again, each set of armor really only costing me maybe 15 minutes of work, max.
I'm just saying that death SHOULD have consequence, at least more so then most mmorpgs today have.
Now, if a game is well made, I don't think it would be hard to implement things like a level 50 killing a level 15 and thus not have the poor victim drop loot. The game could also just as easily have a check for things like internet lag, high ping time, or lost internet connection, and also make it so no item drop happens in that situation.
My point is that if you die in World of Warcraft the death penalty IN MY OPINION is way too shallow. Not enough risk. A player can simply walk back and rez in a matter of seconds generally with no item loss or any real penalty. This creates a game that is much more "reward, reward, reward" rather then real "risk vs reward". And since I have already stated I believe that the RISK vs REWARD needs to be balanced, well in games like WoW, the balance is far too much weighted on the "reward" side of that.
- Zaxx
Do you know how many times I die trying to kill certain boss in wow or those wow clone? I already spend hours and hours wiping on the boss. So your saying on top of that I need 10 hours farming because I wipe 40 times on a raid boss in a day?
Games like UO are complete different genre compare to wow. I have no problem with full loot pvp, I played darkfall and eve. Nothing wrong with that. But stop talking like everygame should be like that.
Why do you need death penalty in a pve game where the game focus on one thing, which is to kill the dungeon and raid boss.
Your playing a sheep vs wolf, guild vs guild destroying each other type of game. Full loot make sense since you want people to be afraid of dieing.
I already don't want to die trying to kill hard pve boss in wow type of game. Those arn't necessary.
Those are just completely different games.
Do you think there need to be death penalty in starcraft, league of legend, or wow arena? No right? It's silly to tell them everytime they loss a pvp match they need to mine for 15 minutes to do another match.
It's just different genre.
Dealing with a horrible UI is often skill too. For example if walking forward wasn't just a matter of pressing "W" but instead required some complex sequence of 15 letters typed in order, that would actually require a fair amount of skill. But clearly not all forms of imperfect UI result in fun skill depth.
A "horrible" UI is never the goal, but rather a UI which enables a set of interesting decisions. This usually means the UI is intentionally limited, because it won't play the entire game for you -- it relies on you to make the decisions, because otherwise the game .
Maybe a clearer example is macros, and how if they're too feature-rich they can essentially play the game for you -- with one button you can perform the ideal rotation or always target the right monster -- which is obviously not ideal for a game where those things are intended to be player decisions and not automated.
@IceWhite - I can write an application for the business I work for, using a three letter acronym that when said in casual conversation references a curse word, and then wait and see how long it takes people to notice*. That doesn't mean I've exhibited excellent coding skills. It might mean I've exhibited my f*ckoffery skills, but only maybe.
The idea behind skill is that people with more skill will be more successful and people with less skill will be less successful. In MMORPG I will not deny that some basic human skills are required to play, but the bar for success has been set pretty low. The primary difference between people at the "top" and the people who aren't at the "top" in MMORPG is the amount of time they're willing to spend in the game. The skill difference between older MMORPGs and newer MMORPGs can be described as either grinding through content you've already done to get back to the point that you can perhaps kill a boss, or grinding through the boss's content time after time so you can perhaps kill them. So while it does take some sort of skill to play an MMORPG, claiming it takes more skill for older MMORPG, or more skill to play MMORPG as opposed to other video games is just trying to make oneself feel better about wasting so much time in a game.
PvP in MMORPG is a possible exception to the patience rule, except it's not. The person who is willing to spend more time getting better gear will win. That's just how MMORPG combat works. Better gear = win.
* Never. The answer is nobody will ever notice, and if they do, they will never acknowledge that the three letter acronym references a curse word. Also, the application worked perfectly and the business used it for several years longer than they should have. I'm now starting to see why some companies write software that breaks after awhile.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
While I would agree with you that World of Warcraft is a completely different type of game, and while I also agree with you that World of Warcraft wouldn't be nearly as successful or brilliant as it is if it had death consequences... I think what I am really saying is this........
Why, oh Why cant those of us that like that very different type of mmo PvP sandbox game get a game for us as brilliant and smooth and as polished as Wow is for the themepark crowd?
There are many different players. And there are different games. But since Dark Age of Camelot went down hill... players on my side of the fence have been left with pretty much nothing but GARBAGE for the last 9 or 10 years. Darkfall is the best we have, sad to say. Do you know how many new mmo games I have purchased and hoped would be the next great Ultima Online or Asherons Call? If I knew exactly, I'd tell you, but it's gotta be well over 50, not even including the many dozens of mmo betas and free trials I have played.
Maybe I'm crazy, but I DO think if a AAA sandlot PvP death-consequence mmo were to be made (Basically a new Ultima Online) with polished 3D graphics, very few minor bugs and glitches, I think it would do VERY WELL. Granted, it certainly wouldn't even come close to being a "wow-killer" but I bet it could easily top 500,000 or perhaps 1 million active subscribers.
Different strokes for different folks. But it's time there was a AAA mmo game made to scratch our backs is all I am saying. The themepark mmo crowd already has about 192 games to choose from, many of them are very very good as well!
A few people have brought up good points that its probably not gonna work to make one end all-be all mmo for both types of crowds. If they make a great pvp game, the pve crowd will feel unloved or an imbalance. Same if they try to put PvP into a great PvE game, it just ends up feeling like a cheap "tack on" or "gimmick" to sell more copies.
But where is "our" game? It's about time. I look at games like ArcheAge and have a little hope. But then there is so much in this style of mmo that is just hype and total trash, ie Mortal Online, Dark n Light, Mourning, and now look at Greed Monger. Haha! What a joke! While we get crap like Mortal Online and jokes like Greed Monger, the themepark crowd gets stellar mmo releases every year like WoW, Rift, Aion, Guild Wars 2, and many, many more. You get my point.
- Zaxx