Originally posted by zoinx Bring back the death penalty! It was good having to fear death. Bring back corpse runs /shout anyone able to help me on a CR? It helped build the great community that EQ was.
You can't build MMOs like they were in Vanilla WoW and in Everquest.
You would be a terrible business person to make a game incredibly similar to Everquest 1, where grouping was a near necessity. MMOs are at a time of anonymity, where you cant be punished for being a total tard because you likely wont run into them ever again. Especially considering Smedley said SOE's future as a business is dependant on the success of EQN, so they have to cater to the masses. They cant just win over EQ vets and be in the clear, they have to win over the MMO crowd and even gamers who havent played MMOs before.
For all the good things you can say while wearing your nostalgia rose-tinted glasses about Everquest, there are annoyances that in 2013 would drive a majority crazy.
You can't blame people for wanting a game of substance instead of the instant gratification we see in mmo's today, it's no wonder people long for a game similiar to the original Everquest, why wouldn't they make a game similar to the original in some respects when that game has brought them 14 years of income. I would also like to add that Planetside 2 generates more daily income than any other of its current titles for SoE its a booming success, they are also making it for the next gen consoles for even more $$$.
So I find the statement "this will make or break our company" to be a little dramatic from SoE, eitherway we will get a better idea of what to expect in August...I just don't understand why people are so against making a game difficult again.
p.s If you think Vanilla WoW was hard you were doing it wrong.
The death penalty (and corpse run) was an important part of the SOCIAL element of the game. It provided a common ground, on which players would work together. This was a form of forced grouping (indirectly) designed to bring the community together. Players were willing to help others recover their corpse, because they knew that they would need this help themselves. This scenario was very good for the game... and should be replicated in other games, even if with different mechanics.
You have to remember that the goal of a game is to teach us (without us realizing it). There have to be challenges, and we have to learn the ways to overcome them. Building in positive benefits for these behaviors is an age old game designer trick. This has been applied to games for centuries, and the best games are those that do this without the player realizing it.
Originally posted by zoinx Bring back the death penalty! It was good having to fear death. Bring back corpse runs /shout anyone able to help me on a CR? It helped build the great community that EQ was.
You can't build MMOs like they were in Vanilla WoW and in Everquest.
You would be a terrible business person to make a game incredibly similar to Everquest 1, where grouping was a near necessity. MMOs are at a time of anonymity, where you cant be punished for being a total tard because you likely wont run into them ever again. Especially considering Smedley said SOE's future as a business is dependant on the success of EQN, so they have to cater to the masses. They cant just win over EQ vets and be in the clear, they have to win over the MMO crowd and even gamers who havent played MMOs before.
For all the good things you can say while wearing your nostalgia rose-tinted glasses about Everquest, there are annoyances that in 2013 would drive a majority crazy.
Why are you trying to wear the Voice o' Reason hat, when it isn't necessary? Also, a strict death penalty promotes smarter gameplay and also brings back social aspects as stated.
Additionally, what you're forgetting is the fact that if they follow the current model or a warped version of it - the game will be beaten within 6 months of launch and they'll lose subscriptions out of bordem. So it's a lose/lose or try and might/might not lose situation. And, they already tried the current model in Vanguard, and look how far that got them.
I will be writing an article on my website later this month on this very topic at eqnexus.com. I personally feel that without a strong death system in place the player never fully feels in danger in a game. The thought of losing your corpse or deleveling haunts me to this very day.
I think to make it easier they could make coffins at low level so you could always get your gear back, but I hope they do have some kind of penalty.
I don't understand how people in new MMO's can be so worried about getting just the right class and gear and then play all reckless wandering through areas without half the caution we'd have used in EQ.
It's because new mmo's require less than half the caution of original EQ. This trend is a major contributor to my inability to find a non-mindless mmorpg nowadays.
Smed has already said there might be hardcore server that are more akin to old EQ, if you don't like harsh death penalty's then stay away from that server.
Simple solution really and kills any argument of against or for it.
Lose 50% of your level xp unless you can get to your spirit shard where you can recover 25% of your level xp back. That would be enough to make dieing not as trivial by making it inconvenient to recover your shard + xp loss. Doubt item loss would go down well these days.
Originally posted by emperorwings Doubt item loss would go down well these days.
Again it wouldn't matter if you choose not to be on that server. If people like item loss then they will use that server, if you don't then stay away from that server.
I'll repeat it again, it's simple, stay away from that server or play on that server, the choice is yours.
I like extremely harsh death penalties but it all has to make sense and setup properly.
loss of gear,yes makes sense i'm ok with it although i did get to witness the drama and arguing and anger over it.
Corpse run,nah don't agree with that,does not make sense.
Heavy xp loss,yes it is the only realistic way to imitate death.IMO you should lose a level plus a %.Or even better it would be a good way to incorporate aging,every time you die you age a year.
The proper setup is all about how you design the layout of the zone .SOE never got that right,they would clutter a very small area with so many mobs,you couldn't help but aggro a whole room and maybe everything through the walls as well.I was never impressed with SOE's aggro or hate system either.
There should be enough room to actually navigate an entire zone if you timed it right.Most often mobs are just standing still so not realistic.
Basically to keep a long story short,they should not have you rely on CC nor should you be forced int o a sloppy fight,it should be up to the players smarts and diligence.That way if you die and suffer a harsh penalty,it is your fault not the games sloppy design.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I hope there is a fairly harsh death penalty; doesn't have to be insane just a risk of some sort i.e. exp or item loss without it there isn't much point to me as it takes the since of risk and thusly accomplishment out of a lot of the PvE game for me, without risk the value of reward for me dwindles hence the reason I'm not a big fan of arena or BG style PvP if I lose what bad thing happens to me or my faction personal ranking aside?
I like EQ1s death penalty because it accomplished so much. It gave u a fear of death and had you rely on other people to help you get to your corpse. Lets be realistic when you died in EQ1 there was never a possibility of losing your gear as your corpse wouldn't decompose for like 48 hours. If you were a troll and people hated you it just made it more difficult to get your corpse. In all 5 years i played i never lost my gear. It was the fear of losing your gear that made it awesome. Also to anyone that thinks losing items on death is a good idea.... yea NO... Gear wasn't just handed to you in EQ1 you had to earn it and each piece was more valuable to you than an entire set of modern day MMO gear. Each piece you set to acquire had a purpose. It would never be ok to lose gear on death. The focus of the game was PVE and working together and that's what all current MMO's lack.
Insert the EQ1 style death penalty and be done with it..
What some people fail to realize is that it helped create content.I cant count how many suspenseful,crazy,nerve racking quests I had to go on to get my gear back from my rotting corpse.
It also establishes a stronger connection between you and your character.When you died? IT HURT! it made you angry and frustrated that it happened.You know what happens when I die in GW2? TSW? WoW? Rift? ....nothing,nothing happens except a measly loss of a couple silver.There's no feeling of loss or defeat.
When you have nothing to lose,it makes for a boring, unexciting experience
Originally posted by TheJoda ...yes I want the same death penalty EQ1 had. XP loss, corpse runs, loot on corpse! There needs to be a fear of dying.
you're just not going to get a lot of players to go with this. Too late, man.
There will be players who will bite..
it'll just deter all the WoW like players who want to be rewarded at a non stop pace like everyday is their b-day.
but the key is getting a solid subscriber base. "If" they have servers appealing to both hardcore and casual players, that may suffice the base. I played EQ1 for years, never knew there was anything else. Once, DAOC started to reduce the death penalty as did SWG and then WoW totally removing any death penalty, well, there you have it. Cripes, I remember when EQ2 started out with Shards, people bitched, they took it out.
I just use Eve as a staple,if 500k or so are willing to play it today,then thats a success.On top of that,Im sure there are even more people craving something challenging,but want a traditional MMO,not space and space ships.As long as they dont spend a ridiculous amount,like SWTOR,500k subs is fine.If they do a good job at launch and down the road,those numbers would only get better.
This one is a tricky subject. I hated losing hours of progress. And I hated losing my level that I worked hard for all day, week, etc. Being a necro with a circlet of shadow (the instant cast one), I wasn't too worried about losing my gear, but it still sucked.
However, you know one FANTASTIC thing that horrible death penalty did? It brought people together!!!! Just died while trying to solo camp some named mob down in that dungeon? Call your guild or friends over to help. It was a serious thing, so people helped, even strangers like myself!! Can't find your body? Look up your friendly neighborhood necro to track it for you -- I've dragged many a corpses from deep down in dungeons. So you lost all your exp you made that day? Find a helpful cleric to rez your body, and get that exp back! Tipping was always a good thing as well, because those that helped had to stop whatever it was they were doing and RISK their lives to help you as well!!
It built community. It build friendships. It built memories that you might still have 13 years later!! THAT is the value of a harsh death penalty. Make it painful as hell, but give us options to deal with it like we had in EQ1.
Originally posted by Riposte.This I think they should have XP debt, revive sickness where your xp is cut in half, and you take a bunch more damage and deal less damage. I was never a fun of corpse running though.
Do like AO used to have - Make you speak to some sort of priest to 'save' the XP you gained between levels and if you don't and die, poof goes all the XP. Sure at lower levels it wasn't too bad, but get in the 190's only to have all the XP from 190 to almost 191 go poof and you were a sad Fixer
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
on the progression servers, SOE allowed players to vote if they wanted the "classic" EQ death experience
the majority did not want it
The majority of those players were racing for server first clears.
If you give anyone a choice, of course they typically choose the easiest path.
The resulting difference this can make when stacked up over and over like in a game such as WoW versus a game such as EQ is the same difference between Checkers and Chess, respectively.
The majority will play checkers and think it is a cool game, then there are others that enjoy thinking, preparing strategies and executing a great plan and winning, like in chess.
I'm more interested in the community formed and the general increased knowledge of experienced players due to a harsh death penalty, rather than what the death penalty exactly is or how it's handled.
Comments
You can't build MMOs like they were in Vanilla WoW and in Everquest.
You would be a terrible business person to make a game incredibly similar to Everquest 1, where grouping was a near necessity. MMOs are at a time of anonymity, where you cant be punished for being a total tard because you likely wont run into them ever again. Especially considering Smedley said SOE's future as a business is dependant on the success of EQN, so they have to cater to the masses. They cant just win over EQ vets and be in the clear, they have to win over the MMO crowd and even gamers who havent played MMOs before.
For all the good things you can say while wearing your nostalgia rose-tinted glasses about Everquest, there are annoyances that in 2013 would drive a majority crazy.
You can't blame people for wanting a game of substance instead of the instant gratification we see in mmo's today, it's no wonder people long for a game similiar to the original Everquest, why wouldn't they make a game similar to the original in some respects when that game has brought them 14 years of income. I would also like to add that Planetside 2 generates more daily income than any other of its current titles for SoE its a booming success, they are also making it for the next gen consoles for even more $$$.
So I find the statement "this will make or break our company" to be a little dramatic from SoE, eitherway we will get a better idea of what to expect in August...I just don't understand why people are so against making a game difficult again.
p.s If you think Vanilla WoW was hard you were doing it wrong.
The death penalty (and corpse run) was an important part of the SOCIAL element of the game. It provided a common ground, on which players would work together. This was a form of forced grouping (indirectly) designed to bring the community together. Players were willing to help others recover their corpse, because they knew that they would need this help themselves. This scenario was very good for the game... and should be replicated in other games, even if with different mechanics.
You have to remember that the goal of a game is to teach us (without us realizing it). There have to be challenges, and we have to learn the ways to overcome them. Building in positive benefits for these behaviors is an age old game designer trick. This has been applied to games for centuries, and the best games are those that do this without the player realizing it.
Why are you trying to wear the Voice o' Reason hat, when it isn't necessary? Also, a strict death penalty promotes smarter gameplay and also brings back social aspects as stated.
Additionally, what you're forgetting is the fact that if they follow the current model or a warped version of it - the game will be beaten within 6 months of launch and they'll lose subscriptions out of bordem. So it's a lose/lose or try and might/might not lose situation. And, they already tried the current model in Vanguard, and look how far that got them.
It's because new mmo's require less than half the caution of original EQ. This trend is a major contributor to my inability to find a non-mindless mmorpg nowadays.
Too true Cochran, good point. I don't like the idea of losing skills, and gear is precious to some so that doesn't seem to be a good way either.
In any case I'd like death to be at least respected.
Asdar
Smed has already said there might be hardcore server that are more akin to old EQ, if you don't like harsh death penalty's then stay away from that server.
Simple solution really and kills any argument of against or for it.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Again it wouldn't matter if you choose not to be on that server. If people like item loss then they will use that server, if you don't then stay away from that server.
I'll repeat it again, it's simple, stay away from that server or play on that server, the choice is yours.
I like extremely harsh death penalties but it all has to make sense and setup properly.
loss of gear,yes makes sense i'm ok with it although i did get to witness the drama and arguing and anger over it.
Corpse run,nah don't agree with that,does not make sense.
Heavy xp loss,yes it is the only realistic way to imitate death.IMO you should lose a level plus a %.Or even better it would be a good way to incorporate aging,every time you die you age a year.
The proper setup is all about how you design the layout of the zone .SOE never got that right,they would clutter a very small area with so many mobs,you couldn't help but aggro a whole room and maybe everything through the walls as well.I was never impressed with SOE's aggro or hate system either.
There should be enough room to actually navigate an entire zone if you timed it right.Most often mobs are just standing still so not realistic.
Basically to keep a long story short,they should not have you rely on CC nor should you be forced int o a sloppy fight,it should be up to the players smarts and diligence.That way if you die and suffer a harsh penalty,it is your fault not the games sloppy design.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
Insert the EQ1 style death penalty and be done with it..
What some people fail to realize is that it helped create content.I cant count how many suspenseful,crazy,nerve racking quests I had to go on to get my gear back from my rotting corpse.
It also establishes a stronger connection between you and your character.When you died? IT HURT! it made you angry and frustrated that it happened.You know what happens when I die in GW2? TSW? WoW? Rift? ....nothing,nothing happens except a measly loss of a couple silver.There's no feeling of loss or defeat.
When you have nothing to lose,it makes for a boring, unexciting experience
There will be players who will bite..
it'll just deter all the WoW like players who want to be rewarded at a non stop pace like everyday is their b-day.
I just use Eve as a staple,if 500k or so are willing to play it today,then thats a success.On top of that,Im sure there are even more people craving something challenging,but want a traditional MMO,not space and space ships.As long as they dont spend a ridiculous amount,like SWTOR,500k subs is fine.If they do a good job at launch and down the road,those numbers would only get better.
imo..
....fine with me, too many wow kiddies around anyway!
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
Discord server rules - die and you start at 1st. Will never be in game but it sure was fun.
I got to 12th level and was killed by a kodiak in Rathe Mountains!!
This one is a tricky subject. I hated losing hours of progress. And I hated losing my level that I worked hard for all day, week, etc. Being a necro with a circlet of shadow (the instant cast one), I wasn't too worried about losing my gear, but it still sucked.
However, you know one FANTASTIC thing that horrible death penalty did? It brought people together!!!! Just died while trying to solo camp some named mob down in that dungeon? Call your guild or friends over to help. It was a serious thing, so people helped, even strangers like myself!! Can't find your body? Look up your friendly neighborhood necro to track it for you -- I've dragged many a corpses from deep down in dungeons. So you lost all your exp you made that day? Find a helpful cleric to rez your body, and get that exp back! Tipping was always a good thing as well, because those that helped had to stop whatever it was they were doing and RISK their lives to help you as well!!
It built community. It build friendships. It built memories that you might still have 13 years later!! THAT is the value of a harsh death penalty. Make it painful as hell, but give us options to deal with it like we had in EQ1.
Do like AO used to have - Make you speak to some sort of priest to 'save' the XP you gained between levels and if you don't and die, poof goes all the XP. Sure at lower levels it wasn't too bad, but get in the 190's only to have all the XP from 190 to almost 191 go poof and you were a sad Fixer
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
The majority of those players were racing for server first clears.
If you give anyone a choice, of course they typically choose the easiest path.
The resulting difference this can make when stacked up over and over like in a game such as WoW versus a game such as EQ is the same difference between Checkers and Chess, respectively.
The majority will play checkers and think it is a cool game, then there are others that enjoy thinking, preparing strategies and executing a great plan and winning, like in chess.
I'm more interested in the community formed and the general increased knowledge of experienced players due to a harsh death penalty, rather than what the death penalty exactly is or how it's handled.