So player A from a shallow game with huge profits for the CEOs but with a dying community posts a troll thread putting down players from other games with more content and growing communities after >10y but with smaller profits.
I Get it.
So, you mean EVE? Cause that is the only MMO I can think of that is older than WoW and could still be considered "growing". I could also agree it has more content, but a lot of people on these forums would argue that point. But other than EVE, can't think of a single 10 year old MMO that anyone would say is "growing". Lineage2? its old and has a LOT of content, but I think everyone will point to the F2P thing that it is dying.
Also, whats with all the Asia hate? Do people who live in China Japan and Korea that play WoW not count as people or something? The community is "dying" because some people pay per hour?
Yes, I meant EVE.
No, with the 'community is dying' comment I meant the sub numbers -which Blizzard have been poasting about for 9y are declining and the age/repetitive content is catching up to the game.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
No, with the 'community is dying' comment I meant the sub numbers -which Blizzard have been poasting about for 9y are declining and the age/repetitive content is catching up to the game.
Pretty sure the numbers have only been going down for the past 4-5 years, and even then its been up and down a lot, to be fair to the game I still don't understand how they've stayed in the game this long, its almost unheard of.
Also be careful when talking about age/repetitive content catching up with it after stating EVE has more content. It is a really subjective issue there. There are droves of people waiting in line to tell you how old EVE gets after a month of mining or mission running. Some people don't enjoy EVE's content at all, find it boring and uninspired. But I bet you think the game is great and the content is compelling (and I'd agree there) . I also know a lot of people who find WoW's content to be compelling, and enjoy the game.
I don't think its fair to ever compare games on how "fun" they are. No matter how bad you think a game is SOMEONE out there enjoys it. I'd slander Darkfall up and down because I think it is poorly made, dishonestly marketed and impossible to enjoy. But I'd be wrong on the 3rd point.
Overall I disagree with your comment that the community is dying in WoW. That game won't last forever, no multiplayer game can. But it has a long LONG way to go before it dies.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
While its a fun list to look through, it really has nothing at all to do with my information or point. There is no indication that list is based off of any actual metric, much less a relevant one like profit. It looks more like "Random Guy's List of Top 50 Favorite Things" just from a well-known publication.
Some of the points had little, it was more likely based on sales but to make my point how abotu this list
Nubmer 2: Blizz (which also includes activisions )
Number 3 (close behind 2): EA
So yep blizzard no doubt are doing well, but like was said without showing the value of each game in their portfolio adding this as a WoW only post is mute.
Fact is them top 3 completly dominate in terms of market share, which im sure i would have no problems getting lots of agreement about how they manage their gaming communities -
So the total WoW Subscribers are at about 7.7 million now. If they lost 3 million they would be at 4.7 million. Does any MMO even come close to that number? Guild Wars 2 probably doesn't even have 4.7 million games sold. I can't think of any MMO that has that many active/semi active subscribers.
GW2 has around 3 million games sold without china.
When they'll release in china my guess is that they'll easily top that.
We talk subscribers here;<
GW2 stands at ZERO subs. Like all the rest of the fantasy based MMO's these days.
BIG difference when talking revenue and development money.
WoT has 40 million "players", of course they mean 40 million guys/girls who pushed the download button...
Revenue of theWOT group was 12 million dollars last year. WOW had 170 million in ... the last 3 months according to the stock reports.
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People confuse active paying subscribers with players who download something or bought a product and then left ...
Not a good way of comparing really.
Any chance of providing some sort of link if this info is shared publicly? I would love to have a look at this stock report.
No, with the 'community is dying' comment I meant the sub numbers -which Blizzard have been poasting about for 9y are declining and the age/repetitive content is catching up to the game.
Pretty sure the numbers have only been going down for the past 4-5 years, and even then its been up and down a lot, to be fair to the game I still don't understand how they've stayed in the game this long, its almost unheard of.
it's a freak game
Also be careful when talking about age/repetitive content catching up with it after stating EVE has more content. It is a really subjective issue there. There are droves of people waiting in line to tell you how old EVE gets after a month of mining or mission running. Some people don't enjoy EVE's content at all, find it boring and uninspired. But I bet you think the game is great and the content is compelling (and I'd agree there) . I also know a lot of people who find WoW's content to be compelling, and enjoy the game.
I think the game is great because I am active on many levels, from newb alt characters to highlevel pvp chars up to alliance leadership levels, not just the usual "I am logging in at 7AM and am mining asteroids till 11PM" comment that you often read about.
Yes, the game has many flaws, I do not say it is a perfect game, far from it, I am a real sandbox player and that's why the only real option atm is EVE for me.
You cannot compare EVE to WOW as game content goes, because it's a themepark vs a sandbox. but I was referring to the statistics.
WOW has like 20x more subs, yet has like 2k-5k max on 1 server. EVE has all on 1 server.
WOW numbers are going down steadily, EVE is still going up.
So financially WOW is the biggest success, yet CCP with EVE are more innovative with progressing a aging game.
So "biggest success" as the OP posted about, is pretty relative, it depends on how you classify success, and there are tons of ways to do that.
Overall I disagree with your comment that the community is dying in WoW. That game won't last forever, no multiplayer game can. But it has a long LONG way to go before it dies.
I said the community is dying as in decline, am not saying the game is dying, SOE managed to run SWG in a comatose state for how many years and still make money of it? I think Blizzard can run WOW with 1k players and still make a profit.
I am just saying in this state WOW will go down in numbers to the numbers you see with other regular MMOs, age has caught up with this game now; unless they come up with something ingenious that will make it go up again.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
This is a massive downfall for Blizzard. Whilst it won't cause them a crisis, they are losing a lot of revenue. Revenue used to keep their high quality customer support. So if they were spending any of the money they use of the 4 million subs and they lost those subscribers they would have to start pulling back.
You are disregarding the fact that Blizzard is a HUGE company. Hence they need a HUGE revenue to keep them afloat. The reason EVE seems successful is because their services aren't as expensive. Not as many employees and therefor not as much expenses. That doesn't mean that Blizzard could survive with half a million subs.
Going down to 7 millions won't hurt them right now since they have probably saved up enough to keep the company going for many years and still make money. But if they lose another four million they will start to be mindful of their massive expenses to make ends meet. Especially considering that they will be pumping a ton of resources into Titan's re-production.
It is kind of like comparing an indie dev with an AAA dev team. If they both make the same amount it still doesn't mean that both of them are successful releases. Although I know you didn't make that comparison but I hope this clear things up for you.
So the total WoW Subscribers are at about 7.7 million now. If they lost 3 million they would be at 4.7 million. Does any MMO even come close to that number? Guild Wars 2 probably doesn't even have 4.7 million games sold. I can't think of any MMO that has that many active/semi active subscribers.
GW2 has around 3 million games sold without china.
When they'll release in china my guess is that they'll easily top that.
We talk subscribers here;<
GW2 stands at ZERO subs. Like all the rest of the fantasy based MMO's these days.
BIG difference when talking revenue and development money.
WoT has 40 million "players", of course they mean 40 million guys/girls who pushed the download button...
Revenue of theWOT group was 12 million dollars last year. WOW had 170 million in ... the last 3 months according to the stock reports.
---
People confuse active paying subscribers with players who download something or bought a product and then left ...
Not a good way of comparing really.
no... I was simply stating my mind about the following:
"Does any MMO even come close to that number? Guild Wars 2 probably doesn't even have 4.7 million games sold."
I'm not confusing anything because I'm well aware of the differences. To clear up any possible confusion, when I said "top that" I ment matching or selling more than 4.7 million copies of the game.
tho, what's funny when talking WOW sub numbers is that people usually don't know that aisan market bring the majority of wow subs and they don't have the same sub model as we do... heck they don't even have to buy the game to have an account. So when you put all that into perspective I think we're always comparing games with similar sub models in WEST, but we leave out that those same games might have totally different sub model in EAST.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
This is a massive downfall for Blizzard. Whilst it won't cause them a crisis, they are losing a lot of revenue. Revenue used to keep their high quality customer support. So if they were spending any of the money they use of the 4 million subs and they lost those subscribers they would have to start pulling back.
Blizzard's WOW can still be profitable with 5 servers running and I bet there are enough real fans out there to fill more then those even if development would stop.
I doubt the game would die, it can only die if Blizzard decide to pull the plug themselves. Even SWG made money with a casshop when like 99% of the playerbase fled.
You are disregarding the fact that Blizzard is a HUGE company. Hence they need a HUGE revenue to keep them afloat. The reason EVE seems successful is because their services aren't as expensive.
Wouldn't say that, for all we know the services take as much bite of their wallet as WOW does with Blizzard.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
This is a massive downfall for Blizzard. Whilst it won't cause them a crisis, they are losing a lot of revenue. Revenue used to keep their high quality customer support. So if they were spending any of the money they use of the 4 million subs and they lost those subscribers they would have to start pulling back.
Blizzard's WOW can still be profitable with 5 servers running and I bet there are enough real fans out there to fill more then those even if development would stop.
I doubt the game would die, it can only die if Blizzard decide to pull the plug themselves. Even SWG made money with a casshop when like 99% of the playerbase fled.
You are disregarding the fact that Blizzard is a HUGE company. Hence they need a HUGE revenue to keep them afloat. The reason EVE seems successful is because their services aren't as expensive.
Wouldn't say that, for all we know the services take as much bite of their wallet as WOW does with Blizzard.
I never claimed that WoW would die. You just disregarded everything I said. They would have to start pulling back. And if EVE spent as much on GM's and Support as WoW they would most likely be wasting money. Blizzard is many times bigger than EVE and thusly EVE doesn't have to spend as much.
It's almost as if you cannot comprehend basic economics. More customers equal more staff answering those tickets. And the more support staff the more it will cost to keep them up. If WoW only had five servers they would have less support and wouldn't be able to spend as much on other projects.
1. The article stated they have 8.3 million currently not 7.7
2. Why are people in this thread comparing WoW NA subs only to total boxes sold on the world market in GW2, those are apples and oranges. Compare like to like. I would bet wow has near 100 million boxes sold.
3. Why do Asian gamers paying for a game not count on WoW, where as they do in other games. You know Eve is sold on world market right? It is not just NA. There is a link around here showing that only about 200,000 subs in Eve are from NA.
Again compare like vs like.
If you compare a world market for one game, use the same criteria for the other.
If you compare boxes sold for one game, use the same criteria for the other.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
So now having heard from both the Fan and Anti-Fan perspectives, is the thread finished?
Every time someone says "this MMO is #1 and better then yours" adds a guaranteed 3 more pages to the thread.
If the above comment is about WOW, then it's the same ruleset but +20 pages.
At four pages and counting.
Not sure I'll ever understand the Hate many have for WOW, it's a game. If you don't like it don't play it, but why the need to try and tear it all down?
No the 175(!) million dollars is from the first financial quarter of THIS year; 2013.
MMO part. Read the Activision Blizzard report on their website. See link pdf: Page 5 of the balance sheets: MMO subscriptions and total WOW income for that quarter.
Also: for 2012 the Elite service of COD was included but that one went free to play in mid 2012, so the 2013 figure is pure WOW
The revenue did not move much btw...
Which explains "most subs were lost in the east".
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So to place everything into perspective: WOW made with 8.3 million subscriptions ... in just 3 months time more than 3 times a 3.000.000 copies sold b2p game will sell in its life time... (including retail revenue, which is 50% of the end price).
Comments
Yes, I meant EVE.
No, with the 'community is dying' comment I meant the sub numbers -which Blizzard have been poasting about for 9y are declining and the age/repetitive content is catching up to the game.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Pretty sure the numbers have only been going down for the past 4-5 years, and even then its been up and down a lot, to be fair to the game I still don't understand how they've stayed in the game this long, its almost unheard of.
Also be careful when talking about age/repetitive content catching up with it after stating EVE has more content. It is a really subjective issue there. There are droves of people waiting in line to tell you how old EVE gets after a month of mining or mission running. Some people don't enjoy EVE's content at all, find it boring and uninspired. But I bet you think the game is great and the content is compelling (and I'd agree there) . I also know a lot of people who find WoW's content to be compelling, and enjoy the game.
I don't think its fair to ever compare games on how "fun" they are. No matter how bad you think a game is SOMEONE out there enjoys it. I'd slander Darkfall up and down because I think it is poorly made, dishonestly marketed and impossible to enjoy. But I'd be wrong on the 3rd point.
Overall I disagree with your comment that the community is dying in WoW. That game won't last forever, no multiplayer game can. But it has a long LONG way to go before it dies.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Some of the points had little, it was more likely based on sales but to make my point how abotu this list
http://www.softwaretop100.org/gaming-company-top-25
Number 1 : Nintendo
Nubmer 2: Blizz (which also includes activisions )
Number 3 (close behind 2): EA
So yep blizzard no doubt are doing well, but like was said without showing the value of each game in their portfolio adding this as a WoW only post is mute.
Fact is them top 3 completly dominate in terms of market share, which im sure i would have no problems getting lots of agreement about how they manage their gaming communities -
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
Any chance of providing some sort of link if this info is shared publicly? I would love to have a look at this stock report.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
This is a massive downfall for Blizzard. Whilst it won't cause them a crisis, they are losing a lot of revenue. Revenue used to keep their high quality customer support. So if they were spending any of the money they use of the 4 million subs and they lost those subscribers they would have to start pulling back.
You are disregarding the fact that Blizzard is a HUGE company. Hence they need a HUGE revenue to keep them afloat. The reason EVE seems successful is because their services aren't as expensive. Not as many employees and therefor not as much expenses. That doesn't mean that Blizzard could survive with half a million subs.
Going down to 7 millions won't hurt them right now since they have probably saved up enough to keep the company going for many years and still make money. But if they lose another four million they will start to be mindful of their massive expenses to make ends meet. Especially considering that they will be pumping a ton of resources into Titan's re-production.
It is kind of like comparing an indie dev with an AAA dev team. If they both make the same amount it still doesn't mean that both of them are successful releases. Although I know you didn't make that comparison but I hope this clear things up for you.
no... I was simply stating my mind about the following:
"Does any MMO even come close to that number? Guild Wars 2 probably doesn't even have 4.7 million games sold."
I'm not confusing anything because I'm well aware of the differences. To clear up any possible confusion, when I said "top that" I ment matching or selling more than 4.7 million copies of the game.
tho, what's funny when talking WOW sub numbers is that people usually don't know that aisan market bring the majority of wow subs and they don't have the same sub model as we do... heck they don't even have to buy the game to have an account. So when you put all that into perspective I think we're always comparing games with similar sub models in WEST, but we leave out that those same games might have totally different sub model in EAST.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I never claimed that WoW would die. You just disregarded everything I said. They would have to start pulling back. And if EVE spent as much on GM's and Support as WoW they would most likely be wasting money. Blizzard is many times bigger than EVE and thusly EVE doesn't have to spend as much.
It's almost as if you cannot comprehend basic economics. More customers equal more staff answering those tickets. And the more support staff the more it will cost to keep them up. If WoW only had five servers they would have less support and wouldn't be able to spend as much on other projects.
that figure is from 2 years ago, May 2011
http://www.joystiq.com/2011/05/09/activision-blizzard-banks-503-million-in-first-quarter-profits/
EQ2 fan sites
Thank you for that.
From here I found http://investor.activision.com/
and this http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ACTI/2534768187x0x661950/3ea10697-2721-46d6-a188-c25fea50736e/ATVI%20Q1%202013%20press%20release.pdf for anyone interested.
1. The article stated they have 8.3 million currently not 7.7
2. Why are people in this thread comparing WoW NA subs only to total boxes sold on the world market in GW2, those are apples and oranges. Compare like to like. I would bet wow has near 100 million boxes sold.
3. Why do Asian gamers paying for a game not count on WoW, where as they do in other games. You know Eve is sold on world market right? It is not just NA. There is a link around here showing that only about 200,000 subs in Eve are from NA.
Again compare like vs like.
If you compare a world market for one game, use the same criteria for the other.
If you compare boxes sold for one game, use the same criteria for the other.
At four pages and counting.
Not sure I'll ever understand the Hate many have for WOW, it's a game. If you don't like it don't play it, but why the need to try and tear it all down?
No the 175(!) million dollars is from the first financial quarter of THIS year; 2013.
MMO part. Read the Activision Blizzard report on their website. See link pdf: Page 5 of the balance sheets: MMO subscriptions and total WOW income for that quarter.
http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ACTI/2504222576x0x661950/3ea10697-2721-46d6-a188-c25fea50736e/ATVI%20Q1%202013%20press%20release.pdf
Also: for 2012 the Elite service of COD was included but that one went free to play in mid 2012, so the 2013 figure is pure WOW
The revenue did not move much btw...
Which explains "most subs were lost in the east".
---
So to place everything into perspective: WOW made with 8.3 million subscriptions ... in just 3 months time more than 3 times a 3.000.000 copies sold b2p game will sell in its life time... (including retail revenue, which is 50% of the end price).
WOW will not go F2P soon when you see this...