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MMOs need to reward you for dying like FPS games

TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321

The first games I've played that reward you for dying are FPS games, like Call of Duty I think was first. Still play every CoD that comes out, and it really does it properly. After CoD, many FPS games (at least all the good ones) still give you points, money or whatever even if you die. After a match ends, you get quite a bit of points even if your team loses. This really rewards the player to keep playing, not rage quit if his team is losing.

 

Now how does that relate to MMOs?

 

Well take WoW (my first MMO, I played others before but I didn't like any of them)...what happens if your team loses or can't accomplish a raid? Well, after an hour and you can't move on...you don't get rewarded at all for it. GW2 at least lets you return to battle and you still get rewarded even if you die.

 

But many MMOs and especially sandbox MMOs do the opposite of reward you for playing. Instead, the more you play, the more you tend to lose. This seems like a really strange way to make a game that is fun to play. Take EVE or Darkfall, you take the time to get a ship or equipment...one player comes along and kills you...just lost everything. A game that is fun to play however, would cause some stat loss (or damage to a ship), but still give you exp or some money even if you die. Like what the good, modern, FPS games do. The more you play a FPS game (or a MMO like GW2) the more you get rewarded for it.

 

And I think this is where the future of the more popular, more FUN and entertaining MMOs will come from. They won't punish you and spit in your face for playing, but reward you.

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«13

Comments

  • Yeah......

     

    I'm just going to leave this here for you....

     

    http://www.destructoid.com/did-call-of-duty-ruin-a-generation-of-gamers--248666.phtml

     

    Enjoy

  • tank017tank017 Member Posts: 2,192

    Keep your CoD the hell out of my MMO genre..its bad enough already.

     

    Deaths are kind enough these days,why in the hell should one be rewarded for dying? thats the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard.

  • VincerKadenVincerKaden Member UncommonPosts: 457
    I thought you meant to say "penalize" instead of "reward". Honestly.

    image

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321

    Call of Duty is one of the best FPS. And if it sucked, it wouldn't be the most popular one either. It proves that people don't want to be spat at or penalized for playing a game. Like if I play EVE, the game usually greatly penalizes you if you make a mistake. This isn't fun.

     

    WoW I believe was first MMO to do a really lite death penalty, and this was a great change to the genre. There may have been some before, but not that I'm aware of. Then with GW2, it is even better. You die (but you get a second chance to live with downstate), but if you fully go down...you can go right back to the event and continue. That is fun, and entertainment. I don't want to be punished for playing a game.

     

    Sandbox games make this mistake a lot, and why they tend to be really niche. While EVE does have 500k subs, that is nowhere the amount themepark games get. And a lot of this I believe, is because so many sandbox games punish you for playing them. I think this is where a lot go wrong and they end up not doing that great population wise.

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,574

    There is a difference between having a light or no death penalty for failure vs actually rewarding them for failure.

    In a competitive environment with standings? Maybe, sports often do this, e.g. hokey overtime - 2 points to winner 1 point to loser.  WoW bg, losing still gives you some points.  In those areas it isn't just about the win, but about the game as well and in WoW's case they want to encourage people to keep on using the bg.

    But rewarding failure as matter of course in all aspects.

    No sorry.  IMO a truly silly and sad suggestion.

    edit -and actually 50-500k subs is about the range that themepark subs get.  They just start higher.

    edit - I personally am more light or no dp, failing is enough of a penalty.  But I shouldn't be rewarded at all.  I failed, no reward.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • erictlewiserictlewis Member UncommonPosts: 3,021

    Yes totally bad idea.  You start reward folks to die, they just might do it on purpose just to farm whatever it is they are doing.  MMO's are not like counter strike where you spend money and earn money each round so you can buy better weapons, it all does a reset when you log off.

    There is no reset in an mmo, unless you delete the toon.    So yes reward for dying, yes folks would abuse that quickly. 

     

  • Odinthedark1Odinthedark1 Member Posts: 330
    That's all we need is for the game devs to hold our hands in an already increasingly easy genre, its rather sad that "most" MMOs have little to no challenge anymore...and the ones that are challenging just aren't good enough to really grab you...what you are suggesting may be smart business wise because of all the new gamers, but terrible for the rest of us (and i use the terms loosely)  "Hardcore / Semi-Hardcore" gamers.
  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Member UncommonPosts: 314

    I don't even play CoD and even I think your misinterpreting it... FPS games give you "less reward for dying, so you have something for experience had and effort given. Like CounterStrike, you got a standard amount of cash each match whether you died or lost, but got more for winning and kills... the loser had to gain some reward upon loss, otherwise you'd be unable to play the next match since you were unequipped.

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • asrlohzasrlohz Member Posts: 645
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Call of Duty is one of the best FPS. And if it sucked, it wouldn't be the most popular one either. It proves that people don't want to be spat at or penalized for playing a game. Like if I play EVE, the game usually greatly penalizes you if you make a mistake. This isn't fun.

     

    WoW I believe was first MMO to do a really lite death penalty, and this was a great change to the genre. There may have been some before, but not that I'm aware of. Then with GW2, it is even better. You die (but you get a second chance to live with downstate), but if you fully go down...you can go right back to the event and continue. That is fun, and entertainment. I don't want to be punished for playing a game.

     

    Sandbox games make this mistake a lot, and why they tend to be really niche. While EVE does have 500k subs, that is nowhere the amount themepark games get. And a lot of this I believe, is because so many sandbox games punish you for playing them. I think this is where a lot go wrong and they end up not doing that great population wise.

    See, that is the problem. A "good" FPS game shouldn't have the skill sealing appropriate for a child. And guess why you are rewarded for failure? Because children need to get some kind of reward for everything. Like a "Participation Medal".

     

    It isn't supposed to be fun to die. You are supposed to avoid death as much as possible. Once again, the downed state was pointless. It was precisely the same thing as in WoW except that you could get back up if something you had attacked died. It was basically "Waiting to be resurrected".

    In any case shouldn't death be as punishing in MMO's as permadeaths or even itemloss. However it could remove XP (especially if it is hard to get XP) and it would just end up with less trolls causing you to wipe in the last dungeon and putting emphasis on the reward if you succeed.

     

    I wonder if you are just a troll, because every last one of your post seems to be about things that are obviously something a twelve-year old would think about MMO's. Or maybe you are just part of a very casual playerbase.

    image
  • Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Call of Duty is one of the best FPS. And if it sucked, it wouldn't be the most popular one either. It proves that people don't want to be spat at or penalized for playing a game. Like if I play EVE, the game usually greatly penalizes you if you make a mistake. This isn't fun.

     

    WoW I believe was first MMO to do a really lite death penalty, and this was a great change to the genre. There may have been some before, but not that I'm aware of. Then with GW2, it is even better. You die (but you get a second chance to live with downstate), but if you fully go down...you can go right back to the event and continue. That is fun, and entertainment. I don't want to be punished for playing a game.

     

    Sandbox games make this mistake a lot, and why they tend to be really niche. While EVE does have 500k subs, that is nowhere the amount themepark games get. And a lot of this I believe, is because so many sandbox games punish you for playing them. I think this is where a lot go wrong and they end up not doing that great population wise.

    Popular does not always mean good.

     

    If you disagree with this, look at Justin Bieber and tell me I'm wrong.

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Reiketsu

    look at Justin Bieber

    /swoon

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,773

    Good idea.

    Reward for playing (success or failure).

    Reward success more.

     

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
    Rewarding failure... did they get that idea from the public school system?

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • DahkohtDahkoht Member UncommonPosts: 479
    Nothing wrong with that at all , all for it in fact.

    And since all mmos shouldn't be the same nor try to please everyone that will let me know which ones to avoid the most.

    There should be leagues where the kids all get participation trophies even for losing. I prefer to keep my son in those who only give the winner trophies.

    Mmos need a participation trophy style game for those of that skill level also.

  • DerrosDerros Member UncommonPosts: 1,216
    Umm, most mmos that have pvp (ones with pvp currency/points) Do reward you for dying, in the exact same way as you describe in CoD.  You get less points than the winning team.
  • irpugbossirpugboss Member UncommonPosts: 427

    Normally I would avoid insta-gratification gaming but there may be a way to spin it for the better. Mind you the following is all off the cuff opinion and speculation on a system based around the OPs subject...

     

    Lets say there is an FFA Sandbox MMO, they could perhaps drive conflict by creating some form of secondary XP/Resource bar or something that accumulates XP like normal in PVP but only releases it on death. Now that XP bar can drive PVP perks, titles or even gear with slight stat increases like a handicap boost or an incentive for meek players to be more aggressive and drive conflict.

     

    Or just thought about it, maybe that XP/Resource bar can be like a power gauge that will unleash an ultimate type attack? Hehe feel free to suggest other possible mechanics aside from "Derp bad idea is bad *trollface*"

     

    Knowing players though I am sure they would find some way to abuse the system like farming and then having a buddy kill them lol...again I am just posting random thoughts on the concept to spur the subject instead of simply tearing it down.

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  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207
    First game I came across that did this was wow not a fps.

    People afking their way to pvp greatness in battlegrounds.
    People saying "stop trying, let's loose,quicker we get more tokens that way"

    Etc..
  • nethervoidnethervoid Member UncommonPosts: 531
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    The first games I've played that reward you for dying are FPS games, like Call of Duty I think was first. Still play every CoD that comes out, and it really does it properly. After CoD, many FPS games (at least all the good ones) still give you points, money or whatever even if you die. After a match ends, you get quite a bit of points even if your team loses. This really rewards the player to keep playing, not rage quit if his team is losing.

     

    Now how does that relate to MMOs?

    It doesn't.

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  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207
    Also cod is one of the worst fps series ever. I used to love fps, but cod and its various clones leave me cold, they're boring with all their corridors & cutscenes, taking control away from the player, trying to be realistic at the expense of fun etc..

    I'm also not keen on the idea of a bunch of computer nerds playing at being soldiers when real soldiers are currently out there doing it for real, I find it distasteful.
  • SupportPlayerMMSupportPlayerMM Member Posts: 310
    Originally posted by Reiketsu

    Yeah......

     

    I'm just going to leave this here for you....

     

    http://www.destructoid.com/did-call-of-duty-ruin-a-generation-of-gamers--248666.phtml

     

    Enjoy

    Think you need to read that... the guy hired a group of CoD fans who ultimately wanted his game to be more CoD like... they were considered "Hardcore" CoD fans and he wanted to appeal to CoD players... The guys problem was he aimed improperly.. instead of trying to do his own thing he tried to appeal to a player base devoted to a franchise without the desire to offer the same gameplay as the franchise they're devoted too and got upset when they liked CoD better.

  • kinnygkinnyg Member UncommonPosts: 15
    you do get awarded for dying. its called resurrecting and not losing your character completely. id prefer mmos to be more difficult but thats just what i enjoy.

    image
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    http://www.destructoid.com/did-call-of-duty-ruin-a-generation-of-gamers--248666.phtml

    The entire article sounds just eerily like what we hear here, every day.

    Guess fans are fans.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TwistingfateTwistingfate Member Posts: 177

    I personally like harder games. Its one of the reasons i play EVE. Having that sense of loss after losing your favorite ship definitely fuels many emotions that normal mmo's dont approach I think.

     

    That moment your at 5% hp and you know that if you die you will lose your favorite ship, the adrenaline starts going, you start sweating and get really amped up.  You are fighting to stay rational and not panic. The enemy is pushing harder, you realize that you cant make it... POP you lose your fav ship. First thing that crosses into most EVE players minds is damit im going to get revenge and murder that bastard :P. Having a sense of loss really increases the immersion for me and those adrenaline rushs in pvping knowing that you are staking a lot on the line makes it incredible. Game may end up making my calm self an adrenaline junkie :P. 

     

    Just my 2 cents and experiences from having a penalizing system like EVE. Nothing is like it and some people love the rush, others hate it but its still interesting all the same imo.

     

    Best wishes

    Saint

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,773
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Rewarding failure... did they get that idea from the public school system?

    You are confusing education and entertainment.

    There is no failure in entertainment. Success & achievements are illusions anyway.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,773
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Also cod is one of the worst fps series ever. I used to love fps, but cod and its various clones leave me cold, they're boring with all their corridors & cutscenes, taking control away from the player, trying to be realistic at the expense of fun etc..

    I'm also not keen on the idea of a bunch of computer nerds playing at being soldiers when real soldiers are currently out there doing it for real, I find it distasteful.

    I find it strange that i actually agree with ShakyMo .. but probably for a different reason. I haven't finished CoD BO2, but finished Dishonored and Bioshock Infinite. I found the later two much more fun.

    I think the issue with CoD is not taking away control (Dishonored & bioshock has some of that too ... like you cannot avoid the empress being killed in Dishonored) .. but that the gameplay in CoD is no longer fun.

    The setting and gameplay in CoD is too realistic. How many ways can you shoot a M16? You have done that 10000 times. And it is all just run-and-gun. Otherwise games will mix it up with new settings, and new mechanics. Like the rail thingie in Bioshock, or the stealth/teleport gameplay in Dishonored.

     

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