Originally posted by ShakyMo People who think "open pvp in vanilla wow was the best ever"
Never played mmos made before wow.
That is your assumption, which is incorrect. I played , UO, EQ, DAoC and EVE before I started with WoW. Still some of the best PvP I had was in Vanilla WoW.
Originally posted by ShakyMo People who think "open pvp in vanilla wow was the best ever"
Never played mmos made before wow.
That is your assumption, which is incorrect. I played , UO, EQ, DAoC and EVE before I started with WoW. Still some of the best PvP I had was in Vanilla WoW.
Originally posted by superconductingOpen world PVP sounds good on paper but in practice is a bad idea. There are a whole host of problems associated with it:- PVP would be way too scattered and less focused. Small groups or individual players would be haphazardly fighting rather than having larger-scale battles between armies.- People would not easily know where to go to join up with their groups.- PVE content (which is most of the game) would not be safe to do. You could never feel safe questing.- It would be a lore-breaker (at least initially before 50+) if factions are not restricted to the races the comprise them.I remember when runescape decided to open up the whole world to PVP, instead of just limiting it to the wilderness. The amount of backlash they received was mind-numbing. PvP was ruined so much that they eventually they restored the wilderness to the way it was before.
Tell the people at blizz that, it was in fact the removal of meaningful OW PVP that cost blizz many subs. OW PvP in Vanilla WoW was some of the best OW PvP in any game.
wow got more popular after bg's were introduced in vanilla wow and gained more subs actually.
group finder and meeting stones is what killed wow's open pvp.
i love me some open pvp but i 100% understand why they have pve exclusive zones in a ES mmo.
if there was open pvp that would turn off a lot of fans. open ffa pvp is not for a lot of people, especially this games target audience.
wows target audience at the time of release was the "bnet kiddies" who were all about pvp.
Where did I say BGs killed Wow, I said the removal of meaningful OW PvP, which was cross server BGs etc
what "meaningful open world pvp" are you speaking of?
Originally posted by ShakyMo People who think "open pvp in vanilla wow was the best ever"
Never played mmos made before wow.
That is your assumption, which is incorrect. I played , UO, EQ, DAoC and EVE before I started with WoW. Still some of the best PvP I had was in Vanilla WoW.
i also agree with this, and in my opinion people who says " best open world pvp " whatever was back in the day mostly havent even played those games and are just talking bullstacko.
i would also like to add my personal experience from best pvp and those games were called knight online and helbreath. and afterwards vanilla wow.
Ffa pvp is fine in a game designed for ffa pvp like eve or DF.
It was also decent on older games with ffa servers, e.g. daoc mordred, ac darktide.
But in wow type games it just sucks, its just a flip a switch server, a cheap way to tick a box saying "got pvp" without making any actual pvp content, while pumping out raid after raid after raid.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Ffa pvp is fine in a game designed for ffa pvp like eve or DF.It was also decent on older games with ffa servers, e.g. daoc mordred, ac darktide.But in wow type games it just sucks, its just a flip a switch server, a cheap way to tick a box saying "got pvp" without making any actual pvp content, while pumping out raid after raid after raid.
open pvp isn't just about having pvp content. there are other reasons to pvp that come naturally in an mmo, like zone/camp control.
some of the best OWpvp i have ever been a part of have been huge battles over OW PVE content that was essential to the raiding guilds.
i realize its personal preference but i personally enjoyed pvp in vanilla wow and EQ.
I enjoy the PVE aspect of MMO's but I like PVP a lot more. Most of my PVE needs are satisfied playing Elder Scrolls Oblivion/Skyrim along with Skyrim mods but I do still play PVE in MMO's. The major problem with this game is that all PVP is going to be restricted to Cyrodiil, I enjoy playing PVP in a wide variety of enviornments and constantly playing in Grasslands/Some snow areas near Bruma is not enough for me. You are supposed to be at war here, I know the battle is for the throne of the Empire that means you need to control Cyrodiil, the heartland and most powerful region in Tamriel. Still, you should beable to sack enemy cities and have big pvp battles in enemy regions.
I know they are balancing everyone for PVP in Cyrodiil, while I like that, it doesn't do much for diversity and it would all come down to skill instead of the gear you worked hard for to get. There should be pvp in the rest of the game world with no balancing additions that are in Cyrodiils pvp. You should beable to sack an enemy city and if you take their city you get to loot it and everyone who attacked should get a lot of gold / items you find around the city. After a city is secured the home faction would have the ability to take it back.
I know this game is running on the Mega Server technology, there should be a PVE and PVP shard, the PVE shard would have all PVP limited to Cyrodiil while the PVP shard would have open world pvp throughout the entire world.
So are they going to have true open world pvp in this game or not? Limitiing all PVP to Cyrodiil is just gonna feel like Guild Wars 2, huge giant maps for PVP but no real open pvp throughout the rest of the world. I hate it when MMO's divide where you can and can't pvp.
Couldn't agree more...no reason for one shard and most games see this now. Shocked ESO doesn't.
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
Open world PVP sounds good on paper but in practice is a bad idea. There are a whole host of problems associated with it:
- PVP would be way too scattered and less focused. Small groups or individual players would be haphazardly fighting rather than having larger-scale battles between armies.
- People would not easily know where to go to join up with their groups.
- PVE content (which is most of the game) would not be safe to do. You could never feel safe questing.
- It would be a lore-breaker (at least initially before 50+) if factions are not restricted to the races the comprise them.
I remember when runescape decided to open up the whole world to PVP, instead of just limiting it to the wilderness. The amount of backlash they received was mind-numbing. PvP was ruined so much that they eventually they restored the wilderness to the way it was before.
Tell the people at blizz that, it was in fact the removal of meaningful OW PVP that cost blizz many subs. OW PvP in Vanilla WoW was some of the best OW PvP in any game.
Blizzard even conceded this in an interview about 2 years ago. While they are happy with what the game has become obviously, the CEO openly stated if there was one thing he could go back and do differently, it would be how they implemented certain things which killed owpvp. The posted that talked about owpvp not working is a total tard...he may not like it and thats fine...but owpvp obviously has merit to many.
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
Good ole vanilla WOW...different times...different people. My old guild used Menethil Harbour as our home base and protected the surrounding area.
I think we all know that the 400,000,000 people worldwide who play MMOs today (yeah it surprised me too: http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/12/15/mmo-infographic/ ) are not the same tight, dedicated hobbyist community that used to play in 2004.
Those who think that the systems that used to work 10 years ago simply because we wanted to make them work and we policed them ourselves can still work today are dreaming.
This segregated PvE/PvP approach like DAoC used to have, GW2 used last year and ESO is using now is the best system that can be used considering the general behavior of players in 2013. Even Cyrodiil in ESO won't be nearly as well-behaved and cooperative as the frontiers were in DAoC back then.
A lot of people these days just love to "game" the game with cheats and exploits and griefing the "gimp" is something some PvP guilds dedicate themselves to... complete with Youtube instructions on how to do it.
Developers these days have to take a more hands-on approach to design. They need to spend a lot more time thinking about what they can do to try to prevent asshats from ruining it too much for everyone else.
PvEing in a griefing-free zone is about as close to open world PvP as they can come in an MMO in 2013 if they hope the game will have wide appeal. Games like DF-Unholy Wars are just retro niche games that appeal to a small portion of the population. Heck, even the PvE portion of Cyrodiil here has some PvErs already worried because their experience of open world PvP is WOW 2013 not WOW 2004.
As depressing as it sounds, what you say in your post rings true.
OWPvP is a must in a Role Playing Game: it makes the virtual world believable and opens up a lot of possibilities for metagame. Although people may solely associate it with combat, OWPvP provides with options for clan politics, faction treasons, counter-espionage, trading routes protected by mercenaries, bounty-hunting... That is, OWPvP puts the base for the only viable form of "endgame" in a MMORPG. Of course, to guarantee OWPvP is gonna work there must a solid consequences system (UO put great foundations for this).
Problem is what you say in your post, which is quite sad... I remember back in the day players approached MMORPGs with a Role Playing mentality: they wanted to develop their characters and build up a legacy in the virtual world, and they wanted this virtual world to make it work. There was a sense of community, every player had a reputation, and if you behaved like a ADHD ridden asshat the best you could expect was a wall of silence and the Ban-hammer.
We all know what happened next: Post BC-WoW, catering to the lowest common denominator among gamers for the sake of a quick buck. Suddenly we had macros, cheats, PVE and PVP segregation, unworthy crafting, auction houses, LFGs, soloers... and taking more and more distance from the RPG essence to become mindless monster-slashing arcades, a collection of battlegrounds and a scripted personal story in which the game is gonna tell you you're the hero and the savior (as anybody else). And a chat.
Yeah, I think this genre is pretty dead. It has lost it, completely lost it. I think the only hope RPers may have is among indie companies that look after a niche, mature public who know what they want.
Another thing: Call me a lunatic, but I think the only way to guarantee that your RP-gaming experience is not ruined by professional grievers and cheaters is through some identification system that requires your National Identification Number, Driving License Number or something to play. And if you screw it, you'll be perma-banned for good. Yeah, it'd be a pretty intrusive system but you know, intrusion is what happens when people don't exercise their liberty in a responsible way.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
(opps, I just realized this is the main thread. Reposting here.)
I'm an old school pvper going back to the mudding pvp days like many (or few) of you. To us these "newer" mmo's are carebear because you dont lose all your gear when you die. Griefing is no problem because you lose nothing. Skirmish fighting is fun as hell in world pvp. Anticipating being jumped is the very excitement I look for and this feeling only comes from a online game where other players can attack you unaware.
I havent had a chance to research the pvp in this game but I keep looking for a game with collision detection (which I love even with its downsides), and where movement and positional attacks mean something and give an advantage. I've tried the latest GW2 and the older darkfalls and they punish circle strafers by slowing strafe speed. I might as well take off my strafe keys on my keyboard. I hope this game turns out to have collision detection and reward movement and positional attacks other than just a rogue class. Don't slow strafe speed, Slow stationary rotation speed so everyone will have to use movement and their strafe keys.
My 2 cents is I would like to have had world pvp. Alot of pvpers are searching hard for a great pvp game. Can't pve'ers get their pve fix by playing wow? It has pve and raids, what more can a pve'er ask for
Edit: After a mod questioned my post, I'd like to say, for clarity, that my post is directed to the op. This should satisfy the moderators thoughts in that I should read the other 161 posts.
Comments
That is your assumption, which is incorrect. I played , UO, EQ, DAoC and EVE before I started with WoW. Still some of the best PvP I had was in Vanilla WoW.
Same.
what "meaningful open world pvp" are you speaking of?
also to everyone who didnt play warhammer online, it simply does not work!
pvp need to be focused not scattered around everywhere with meaningless purposes. only one thing on its mind, pk some noobs.
i also agree with this, and in my opinion people who says " best open world pvp " whatever was back in the day mostly havent even played those games and are just talking bullstacko.
i would also like to add my personal experience from best pvp and those games were called knight online and helbreath. and afterwards vanilla wow.
It was also decent on older games with ffa servers, e.g. daoc mordred, ac darktide.
But in wow type games it just sucks, its just a flip a switch server, a cheap way to tick a box saying "got pvp" without making any actual pvp content, while pumping out raid after raid after raid.
open pvp isn't just about having pvp content. there are other reasons to pvp that come naturally in an mmo, like zone/camp control.
some of the best OWpvp i have ever been a part of have been huge battles over OW PVE content that was essential to the raiding guilds.
i realize its personal preference but i personally enjoyed pvp in vanilla wow and EQ.
Couldn't agree more...no reason for one shard and most games see this now. Shocked ESO doesn't.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
Blizzard even conceded this in an interview about 2 years ago. While they are happy with what the game has become obviously, the CEO openly stated if there was one thing he could go back and do differently, it would be how they implemented certain things which killed owpvp. The posted that talked about owpvp not working is a total tard...he may not like it and thats fine...but owpvp obviously has merit to many.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
As depressing as it sounds, what you say in your post rings true.
OWPvP is a must in a Role Playing Game: it makes the virtual world believable and opens up a lot of possibilities for metagame. Although people may solely associate it with combat, OWPvP provides with options for clan politics, faction treasons, counter-espionage, trading routes protected by mercenaries, bounty-hunting... That is, OWPvP puts the base for the only viable form of "endgame" in a MMORPG. Of course, to guarantee OWPvP is gonna work there must a solid consequences system (UO put great foundations for this).
Problem is what you say in your post, which is quite sad... I remember back in the day players approached MMORPGs with a Role Playing mentality: they wanted to develop their characters and build up a legacy in the virtual world, and they wanted this virtual world to make it work. There was a sense of community, every player had a reputation, and if you behaved like a ADHD ridden asshat the best you could expect was a wall of silence and the Ban-hammer.
We all know what happened next: Post BC-WoW, catering to the lowest common denominator among gamers for the sake of a quick buck. Suddenly we had macros, cheats, PVE and PVP segregation, unworthy crafting, auction houses, LFGs, soloers... and taking more and more distance from the RPG essence to become mindless monster-slashing arcades, a collection of battlegrounds and a scripted personal story in which the game is gonna tell you you're the hero and the savior (as anybody else). And a chat.
Yeah, I think this genre is pretty dead. It has lost it, completely lost it. I think the only hope RPers may have is among indie companies that look after a niche, mature public who know what they want.
Another thing: Call me a lunatic, but I think the only way to guarantee that your RP-gaming experience is not ruined by professional grievers and cheaters is through some identification system that requires your National Identification Number, Driving License Number or something to play. And if you screw it, you'll be perma-banned for good. Yeah, it'd be a pretty intrusive system but you know, intrusion is what happens when people don't exercise their liberty in a responsible way.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
(opps, I just realized this is the main thread. Reposting here.)
I'm an old school pvper going back to the mudding pvp days like many (or few) of you. To us these "newer" mmo's are carebear because you dont lose all your gear when you die. Griefing is no problem because you lose nothing. Skirmish fighting is fun as hell in world pvp. Anticipating being jumped is the very excitement I look for and this feeling only comes from a online game where other players can attack you unaware.
I havent had a chance to research the pvp in this game but I keep looking for a game with collision detection (which I love even with its downsides), and where movement and positional attacks mean something and give an advantage. I've tried the latest GW2 and the older darkfalls and they punish circle strafers by slowing strafe speed. I might as well take off my strafe keys on my keyboard. I hope this game turns out to have collision detection and reward movement and positional attacks other than just a rogue class. Don't slow strafe speed, Slow stationary rotation speed so everyone will have to use movement and their strafe keys.
My 2 cents is I would like to have had world pvp. Alot of pvpers are searching hard for a great pvp game. Can't pve'ers get their pve fix by playing wow? It has pve and raids, what more can a pve'er ask for
Edit: After a mod questioned my post, I'd like to say, for clarity, that my post is directed to the op. This should satisfy the moderators thoughts in that I should read the other 161 posts.
In an mmorpg, you should never feel safe whilst questing.
There is a war on you know.
yea they should implement some sort of spying/sabotage mission system similar to age of wushu to have some PvP outside of Cyrodil in the open world.