IMO Aion, Rift, GW2 have fluid combat; of course GW2 itself falls into a different category when it comes to combat due to the fact that it does not rely on tab targeting so much.
But this is just my opinion like the OP is; not that it makes a difference what argument I post, from what I have seen nothing is valid and only WoW will be the victor
V.
P.S. Also, WoW has been out for some time; I do remember the game from early stages and what crap code it used to have. Also, vanilla WoW release was something that today would be considered unacceptable by the current MMO gamers. The lag was constantly 400, not matter what connection you had and the UI had serious input lag. The only reason WoW seems so good is because they had a few years tweaking and improving, but it is on par with several games that have been release since.
Also, I once met a lowbie payer who just started VSoH, who complained mages would be insanely hard in VSoH.
Turns out you cant move during spellcasting in WoW ... so much for "fluid combat" LOL !
actually you can move while spell casting in WoW, which if you'd played it you would realise, you can move and cast instant spells without problem, there are also abilities you can use to cast longer spells while moving, particularly as a frost mage, but even for those spells that need you to stay still, you are not locked in place, if you need to move you can move mid cast, it breaks the spell cast but you can move, which is vastly superior to those games that don't allow you to do that. I agree with the OP, for its age, or perhaps despite its age, WoW does have the most fluid combat.
Ive played most mmo's in the past decade and i agree that WoW has the fastest responsive combat mmo ever created. No other mmo has that push keybind and its casts, even with lag it ques up the next spell, there are even addons that shows the lag + casting etc etc.
Alot of people say other mmo's has it better or equal...flat out lie. Ive played all tripple A mmo's and none felt equaly fast as wow when it comes to press keybind / cast or hit. In battlegrounds / arena this realy feels so good that every other mmo's just feels second ranked.
No idea why only WoW has this so far, seems they are very lucky or just plain good coding.
What do I mean specifically by fluid? The sum of: the games response to your input, the successive execution of skills and skill macro responsiveness.
No, I won't go back to WoW. I'm finished with that game and practically this entire genre. WoW has a lot of problems.. and frankly, even without them I couldn't bring myself to play it, because my marginal utility from doing anything for a ridiculous amount of time is negative to 0.
Some games have tried making babysteps, like Tera, Raiderz, AoC etc., but nothing so far has been executed at the same caliber.
It has been over a decade now for MMORPGers and we're still stuck with tab targeting for the most part; you'll have some games like GW2 boasting a pseudo targeting, i.e. aoe system with a dodge in place mimicking a cooldown in WoW, but it's really just the same beast with a different flavor (and still, not quite as fluid in my worthless opinion).
Has anybody found anything with combat comparably "fluid" to WoWs? I am really hankering for something new and nothing recently has really captured my fancy in the combat department.
I feel GW2 (casting and 2H use, DW looks akward to me since they both don't swing together) and Neverwinter are on par with WoW's combat animations. But your right WoW's is certqainly the benchmark for good combat animations. Bad animations are my worst pet peeve in an MMO and has caused me to quit Rift, TSW and LotRO.
I do a lot of healing, and whenever I try other games I always come back to wow for a spell. Its the game where I feel most in control of what's going on. And I think its to do with animations. I remember playing lotro, and healing there, as a minstrel I had to get out my instrument, then the cast bar would start, then I would have to see her put it away, all the while rooted to the ground. I always felt like I was waiting, thus feeling not in control.
In WoW I know I can jump and instant heal, or move, or just simply chain heals where my cast bar is always moving, and I am not waiting around.
Saying that I quit WoW as it began to feel more like a job, with dailies and raidfinder, but I guess that's another story
I really like frame lock in animations, but sadly I know it's not a popular thing in MMOs and I wish it was, I'd love to play a MMO that had this that was really popular and successful. I like having to watch my animations and time everything perfectly, it adds another interesting element to combat for me. I fall asleep playing WoW sometimes because it just seems like I'm sitting there watching my action bars more than I'm actually watching my character and what they're even doing. Most of the time I don't even know what the ability animations look like because it's just something that's not important to know.
WoW is famous for running on sub par computers that can't run other MMOs, running well over dial-up, etc. Maybe the lack of lag, relative to other MMOs, helps combat?
What do I mean specifically by fluid? The sum of: the games response to your input, the successive execution of skills and skill macro responsiveness.
No, I won't go back to WoW. I'm finished with that game and practically this entire genre. WoW has a lot of problems.. and frankly, even without them I couldn't bring myself to play it, because my marginal utility from doing anything for a ridiculous amount of time is negative to 0.
Some games have tried making babysteps, like Tera, Raiderz, AoC etc., but nothing so far has been executed at the same caliber.
It has been over a decade now for MMORPGers and we're still stuck with tab targeting for the most part; you'll have some games like GW2 boasting a pseudo targeting, i.e. aoe system with a dodge in place mimicking a cooldown in WoW, but it's really just the same beast with a different flavor (and still, not quite as fluid in my worthless opinion).
Has anybody found anything with combat comparably "fluid" to WoWs? I am really hankering for something new and nothing recently has really captured my fancy in the combat department.
Just look at the graphical engine, done.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Actually this is the single most important reason that WoW is still topping the lists..
however in my opinion, GW2 comes close. But most other mmos have really failed.
Not many developers seem to realise the importance of this. Tough i must admit that SWtor has greatly improved since release, but still lags miles beyound WoW, while other developers like SOE and Funcom seem clueless how to improve their current games in this department.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Originally posted by Studdley Widlstar might end up with a fluid combat system. I'm not in beta, but just going from their combat video, it looks interesting. It has the just about mandatory dodge/roll thingie, and a telegraph AOE system. The only thing that worries me is that it also has a double-jump. I just hope PVP doesn't turn into everyone bunny hopping like idiots (yes I'm looking at you Defiance).
Well if it works like NW it can be frustrating because you get locked into animations,seems the game engine cannot do two things at once.We will have to wait and see i guess how fluid it works.
We should also remember that how detailed the action is can determine a lot as well.So you might have a single textured effect that of course will run smooth,but looks cheap and ugly or you might have multi layered effects like 3 textured effects all going off at the same time and will of course take more to run.
Some effects have animations in them as well instead of just static textures,that again takes more to run.
Another factor is how many frames make up player animations,if it only has to run say 5 frames instead of 25,it is goign to run a lot more fluid but look like crap.
I will always lean towards more effort,better looking effects than just the cheap look that runs smoother.The real point is that it is NOT only about fluid,it is about effort and quality of work inside the game and imo that is actually MORE important than fluidity.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I can't say I grasp why this is so important to some people. Try playing a game like Monster Hunter, and you'll absolutely die at how many locks and stoppages there are. And I love that game, because it requires you to factor those things into your performance. It sounds like people want a twitch-based game that doesn't actually require any patience or timing?
Personally I don't like MMO combat that is as "responsive" as it is in WoW. As others have said, you end up hammering buttons the entire time. That can be okay on a controller, but as peripherals, the keyboard and mouse aren't very well suited to that style of play. Personal opinion.
Frames per animation man, and it is sensitive to ping. Age of Wushu is the worst offender for me so far. Then again it's kung fu and pruning the animations there would be like tail-docking a squirrel. Tera has a fair enough balance between frames per animation and super cool looking moves, as does Neverwinter. They're not quite on par with WoW or Dragon Nest but you gotta make compromises..
Darkfall 1 had at least not a worse combat than WoW. Combination of fast pace, non-target system and tonns of abilities/spells made it very fluid and skill-based. DFUW is doing it much worse. AV dumbed down it to be more suitable for casuals. But casuals suck anyway, and for good players it's become much more clunky and not well thought out.
One thing that makes GW2 combat better in my opinion is that, compared to WoW at least, I'm actually watching the screen and the fight a lot more than the UI. Skills having the "trinity" smeared through them (instead of character hard roles) adds a situational aspect to combat that I haven't seen from other games yet (in my limited exposure). Add that to combat animations happening on the move, actual terrain obstructions, dodging,... it all adds up to me to be a system that really flows. When you're in the groove it's almost a dance. But, that's just me. WoW was very responsive, yet at the same time it's a lot more static feeling overall. Different games, different styles, different opinions.
Tab targeting is not fluid. WoW's combat is awful, plain and simple.
Tera and Neverwinter are just two that come to mind that have fluid combat that blows WoW's ancient tab targeting mess away..
All matter of opinion I guess. I would put GW2 one step below WoW, with it being the cadillac of fluid combat. Tera and Neverwinter way down the list due to the fact that they both have the irritating root/lock when casting.
Just a small side opinion, a cadillac is actually a pretty bad car, if you compare its technics and mechanics, to cars from europe, which got produced in the same years.
Which means automaticly to me wow is bad, did you mean that?
Tab targeting is not fluid. WoW's combat is awful, plain and simple.
Tera and Neverwinter are just two that come to mind that have fluid combat that blows WoW's ancient tab targeting mess away..
All matter of opinion I guess. I would put GW2 one step below WoW, with it being the cadillac of fluid combat. Tera and Neverwinter way down the list due to the fact that they both have the irritating root/lock when casting.
Just a small side opinion, a cadillac is actually a pretty bad car, if you compare its technics and mechanics, to cars from europe, which got produced in the same years.
Which means automaticly to me wow is bad, did you mean that?
Cadillac CTS-V stomped every European sports sedan of the same year. +1 for Cadillac
What is unfortunate is most people have never experienced the fluidness that combat with a Disciple in Vanguard was in the early betas, but there it really had it down. Before all of the changes to the class you could pretty much use skills forever but the key was in which way you led the chains. You thought two steps ahead. Do I want in two combat steps to have the option of a good heal, a dot, or something damaging. You followed through the chains in a very fluid manner and the branches you took led you to different possible choices later on.
Has anybody found anything with combat comparably "fluid" to WoWs? I am really hankering for something new and nothing recently has really captured my fancy in the combat department.
What is unfortunate is most people have never experienced the fluidness that combat with a Disciple in Vanguard was in the early betas, but there it really had it down. Before all of the changes to the class you could pretty much use skills forever but the key was in which way you led the chains. You thought two steps ahead. Do I want in two combat steps to have the option of a good heal, a dot, or something damaging. You followed through the chains in a very fluid manner and the branches you took led you to different possible choices later on.
I played VG right at its release (when it was subscription based) and I leveled a disciple, dk and blood mage.
A disciple, at least as I remember it, was comparable to a rogue but with combo finishers that could heal you instead of damaging the opponent.
The blood mage sort of felt like a druid, but the stance shifts didn't feel as smooth was with a WoW warrior/druid etc.
I don't particularly remember the casting times being "fluid" in the sense of response times as with WoW; it felt to me a lot like EQ2/SWToR in that regard, but I haven't played it for all these years so maybe it has improved, or perhaps it was downgraded from the beta you participated in.
Vanguard wasn't a bad game, but it simply lacked content... just an opinion again.
As for the last post: D3 definitely isn't a MMORPG.
I've leveled a TR in Neverwinter (or NWO as you call it, but the developers and community mods insist on the game being called Neverwinter and not Neverwinter online as it's popularly called) to 60 and no, the combat isn't anywhere near as good (in terms of responsiveness) as in many games, including GW2 and WoW.
Disregarding the rooting aspect of the game with skill execution, you have slower game response times, at least for me and I got very good FPS while playing the game. I would often execute a move, see the animation execute and be next to somebody with no effect while still having a decent ping. The animations in NWO are good, but the combat itself is pretty terrible and comparable to something around the lines of CoH/CO.
What is unfortunate is most people have never experienced the fluidness that combat with a Disciple in Vanguard was in the early betas, but there it really had it down. Before all of the changes to the class you could pretty much use skills forever but the key was in which way you led the chains. You thought two steps ahead. Do I want in two combat steps to have the option of a good heal, a dot, or something damaging. You followed through the chains in a very fluid manner and the branches you took led you to different possible choices later on.
I played VG right at its release (when it was subscription based) and I leveled a disciple, dk and blood mage.
A disciple, at least as I remember it, was comparable to a rogue but with combo finishers that could heal you instead of damaging the opponent.
The blood mage sort of felt like a druid, but the stance shifts didn't feel as smooth was with a WoW warrior/druid etc.
I don't particularly remember the casting times being "fluid" in the sense of response times as with WoW; it felt to me a lot like EQ2/SWToR in that regard, but I haven't played it for all these years so maybe it has improved, or perhaps it was downgraded from the beta you participated in.
Vanguard wasn't a bad game, but it simply lacked content... just an opinion again.
As for the last post: D3 definitely isn't a MMORPG.
I've leveled a TR in Neverwinter (or NWO as you call it, but the developers and community mods insist on the game being called Neverwinter and not Neverwinter online as it's popularly called) to 60 and no, the combat isn't anywhere near as good (in terms of responsiveness) as in many games, including GW2 and WoW.
Disregarding the rooting aspect of the game with skill execution, you have slower game response times, at least for me and I got very good FPS while playing the game. I would often execute a move, see the animation execute and be next to somebody with no effect while still having a decent ping. The animations in NWO are good, but the combat itself is pretty terrible and comparable to something around the lines of CoH/CO.
We are talking long before release. By release Vanguard was merely a shadow of what it once was. The last vestiges of what made the disciple great were removed pretty early in the third stage of the beta, about 10 months before release. Well not the last, but the biggest shift in what made a disciple a disciple.
Comments
IMO Aion, Rift, GW2 have fluid combat; of course GW2 itself falls into a different category when it comes to combat due to the fact that it does not rely on tab targeting so much.
But this is just my opinion like the OP is; not that it makes a difference what argument I post, from what I have seen nothing is valid and only WoW will be the victor
V.
P.S. Also, WoW has been out for some time; I do remember the game from early stages and what crap code it used to have. Also, vanilla WoW release was something that today would be considered unacceptable by the current MMO gamers. The lag was constantly 400, not matter what connection you had and the UI had serious input lag. The only reason WoW seems so good is because they had a few years tweaking and improving, but it is on par with several games that have been release since.
actually you can move while spell casting in WoW, which if you'd played it you would realise, you can move and cast instant spells without problem, there are also abilities you can use to cast longer spells while moving, particularly as a frost mage, but even for those spells that need you to stay still, you are not locked in place, if you need to move you can move mid cast, it breaks the spell cast but you can move, which is vastly superior to those games that don't allow you to do that. I agree with the OP, for its age, or perhaps despite its age, WoW does have the most fluid combat.
Ive played most mmo's in the past decade and i agree that WoW has the fastest responsive combat mmo ever created.
No other mmo has that push keybind and its casts, even with lag it ques up the next spell, there are even addons that shows the lag + casting etc etc.
Alot of people say other mmo's has it better or equal...flat out lie.
Ive played all tripple A mmo's and none felt equaly fast as wow when it comes to press keybind / cast or hit.
In battlegrounds / arena this realy feels so good that every other mmo's just feels second ranked.
No idea why only WoW has this so far, seems they are very lucky or just plain good coding.
I feel GW2 (casting and 2H use, DW looks akward to me since they both don't swing together) and Neverwinter are on par with WoW's combat animations. But your right WoW's is certqainly the benchmark for good combat animations. Bad animations are my worst pet peeve in an MMO and has caused me to quit Rift, TSW and LotRO.
SUP
I have to agree with the OP.
I do a lot of healing, and whenever I try other games I always come back to wow for a spell. Its the game where I feel most in control of what's going on. And I think its to do with animations. I remember playing lotro, and healing there, as a minstrel I had to get out my instrument, then the cast bar would start, then I would have to see her put it away, all the while rooted to the ground. I always felt like I was waiting, thus feeling not in control.
In WoW I know I can jump and instant heal, or move, or just simply chain heals where my cast bar is always moving, and I am not waiting around.
Saying that I quit WoW as it began to feel more like a job, with dailies and raidfinder, but I guess that's another story
I really like frame lock in animations, but sadly I know it's not a popular thing in MMOs and I wish it was, I'd love to play a MMO that had this that was really popular and successful. I like having to watch my animations and time everything perfectly, it adds another interesting element to combat for me. I fall asleep playing WoW sometimes because it just seems like I'm sitting there watching my action bars more than I'm actually watching my character and what they're even doing. Most of the time I don't even know what the ability animations look like because it's just something that's not important to know.
WoW is famous for running on sub par computers that can't run other MMOs, running well over dial-up, etc. Maybe the lack of lag, relative to other MMOs, helps combat?
Just look at the graphical engine, done.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Actually this is the single most important reason that WoW is still topping the lists..
however in my opinion, GW2 comes close. But most other mmos have really failed.
Not many developers seem to realise the importance of this. Tough i must admit that SWtor has greatly improved since release, but still lags miles beyound WoW, while other developers like SOE and Funcom seem clueless how to improve their current games in this department.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Well if it works like NW it can be frustrating because you get locked into animations,seems the game engine cannot do two things at once.We will have to wait and see i guess how fluid it works.
We should also remember that how detailed the action is can determine a lot as well.So you might have a single textured effect that of course will run smooth,but looks cheap and ugly or you might have multi layered effects like 3 textured effects all going off at the same time and will of course take more to run.
Some effects have animations in them as well instead of just static textures,that again takes more to run.
Another factor is how many frames make up player animations,if it only has to run say 5 frames instead of 25,it is goign to run a lot more fluid but look like crap.
I will always lean towards more effort,better looking effects than just the cheap look that runs smoother.The real point is that it is NOT only about fluid,it is about effort and quality of work inside the game and imo that is actually MORE important than fluidity.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Umm, Tera?
And I remember Aion having quite good fluid combat as well.
I can't say I grasp why this is so important to some people. Try playing a game like Monster Hunter, and you'll absolutely die at how many locks and stoppages there are. And I love that game, because it requires you to factor those things into your performance. It sounds like people want a twitch-based game that doesn't actually require any patience or timing?
Personally I don't like MMO combat that is as "responsive" as it is in WoW. As others have said, you end up hammering buttons the entire time. That can be okay on a controller, but as peripherals, the keyboard and mouse aren't very well suited to that style of play. Personal opinion.
I thought Guild Wars 2, TOR and Rift did almost as well in that department. GW2 surpassed it in terms of movement.
TOR had a few serious problems with combat flow when it released, but they did fix that.
Aion also did well, but they have more "lock in place" type attacks that seem to be more common in that specific type of genre.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Darkfall 1 had at least not a worse combat than WoW. Combination of fast pace, non-target system and tonns of abilities/spells made it very fluid and skill-based. DFUW is doing it much worse. AV dumbed down it to be more suitable for casuals. But casuals suck anyway, and for good players it's become much more clunky and not well thought out.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Just a small side opinion, a cadillac is actually a pretty bad car, if you compare its technics and mechanics, to cars from europe, which got produced in the same years.
Which means automaticly to me wow is bad, did you mean that?
Cadillac CTS-V stomped every European sports sedan of the same year. +1 for Cadillac
What is unfortunate is most people have never experienced the fluidness that combat with a Disciple in Vanguard was in the early betas, but there it really had it down. Before all of the changes to the class you could pretty much use skills forever but the key was in which way you led the chains. You thought two steps ahead. Do I want in two combat steps to have the option of a good heal, a dot, or something damaging. You followed through the chains in a very fluid manner and the branches you took led you to different possible choices later on.
Yes .. Diablo 3, NWO.
I played VG right at its release (when it was subscription based) and I leveled a disciple, dk and blood mage.
A disciple, at least as I remember it, was comparable to a rogue but with combo finishers that could heal you instead of damaging the opponent.
The blood mage sort of felt like a druid, but the stance shifts didn't feel as smooth was with a WoW warrior/druid etc.
I don't particularly remember the casting times being "fluid" in the sense of response times as with WoW; it felt to me a lot like EQ2/SWToR in that regard, but I haven't played it for all these years so maybe it has improved, or perhaps it was downgraded from the beta you participated in.
Vanguard wasn't a bad game, but it simply lacked content... just an opinion again.
As for the last post: D3 definitely isn't a MMORPG.
I've leveled a TR in Neverwinter (or NWO as you call it, but the developers and community mods insist on the game being called Neverwinter and not Neverwinter online as it's popularly called) to 60 and no, the combat isn't anywhere near as good (in terms of responsiveness) as in many games, including GW2 and WoW.
Disregarding the rooting aspect of the game with skill execution, you have slower game response times, at least for me and I got very good FPS while playing the game. I would often execute a move, see the animation execute and be next to somebody with no effect while still having a decent ping. The animations in NWO are good, but the combat itself is pretty terrible and comparable to something around the lines of CoH/CO.
We are talking long before release. By release Vanguard was merely a shadow of what it once was. The last vestiges of what made the disciple great were removed pretty early in the third stage of the beta, about 10 months before release. Well not the last, but the biggest shift in what made a disciple a disciple.