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Still, no MMORPG surpasses WoW in fluid combat (in my opinion): Why not?

24

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  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,860
    Originally posted by mmoski

    AND THE WINNER FOR MOST INNOVATIVE FLUID COMBAT SYSTEM IS....

    Dragons Nest, although many of you wont like the graphics and instancing, the combat is second to none, the combat plays more like a fighting game, fluid combo's, breakers, movement and dodging based on aim targeting. No other game has come close yet.

     

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm

    If you're going to make a sweeping claim like that, I hope you're prepared to back it up.  The above list includes just a few games you may want to consider.

     

    Originally posted by Swanea

    Originally posted by Phaserlight

    [...]

    This is an example of the strategy and execution one must use while in combat in Vendetta Online. Books that might aid in strategy in Vendetta include Sun Tzu's The Art of War or Miyamoto Musashi's The Book of Five Rings.  All in all, the combat is fluid, fast, depending on player skill as well as strategy.  The combat in WoW does not compare.

    [...]

    For Point two, I understand where you are going and that seems to make Vendetta a very fun game in that regard.  Having not played, I can't comment on its fluid combat.  What I can comment on is that in almost any PvP scenario, things are different and exciting for MOST games.  I think you are looking at two different types of games.  But most people hardly care for the deeper combat in wow DUE to it's fluidness.

     

    Fair enough; I can appreciate that WoW excels in its own regard, doing the things it does very well.  However, I feel like the words "fluid" and "intuitive" should go hand in hand.  In other words, a new player should be able to enter a game and become a seasoned opponent by virtue of adaptability.  I'm sure this is somewhat true of a game like WoW, however I would think a game like VO that depends on (spooky)[1] emergence, based on physical interactions, should "flow" just a little bit better; I'd rather spend my time learning the physical boundaries of a consistent, simple ruleset than memorizing menu-paths based on context-specific advantages.  There's the adage that a baseball outfielder is actually performing calculus when catching a fly-ball: if a game is intuitive, strategy can flourish without any artificially-added complexity.

    If that didn't make any sense: WoW and VO are both great games, but I appreciate VO's robust simplicity in combat.

    [1]Berit Brogaard, (March 1, 2013) What Is Consciousness? Psychology Today. Retrieved 5-21-13.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • mykxmykx Member Posts: 2

    Yeah WoW has the best movement of any mmo I've played.  Hopefully wildstar will have the fluid movement seen in WoW.  Below is a good show chase of the movement and one of my favorite pvp videos.

    Dual wield night elf female attack animations are sick!

  • TheHavokTheHavok Member UncommonPosts: 2,423

    GW2 actually has pretty fluid controls and combat.  True, they aren't up to WoW's smoothness, but GW2 is a huge step above a lot of other mmorpgs.

    I'm hoping that Wildstar also has the tight, fluid controls that WoW has.

  • ChrisboxChrisbox Member UncommonPosts: 1,729
    So fluid..yet so original.  

    Played-Everything
    Playing-LoL

  • AbdarAbdar Member UncommonPosts: 400

    WoW indeed has the most responsive combat/movement out there. The fact that it's tab targeting is irrelevant to those who are complaining about it. That's not really what the OP is talking about here.

    .... and no I don't play it anymore.. 

  • caremuchlesscaremuchless Member Posts: 603

     

     I agree that no other mmo to date can compare to WoW in Fluid Combat.

    I enjoyed my time in WoW, played on release and 6 years after. It was my 3rd mmo (first being Shadowbane and then DAOC)

     

    ? I have since played Guild Wars, Warhammer, Age of Conan, AION, SWTOR and Guild Wars 2. None of them have had the fluidity and responsiveness that WoW continues to have. Why not? Maybe its Code. Engines are recycled over and over again (Warhammer was a good example of this, played like DAOC to me).

     

    /edit- And no I don't play it anymore either.

    image

  • caremuchlesscaremuchless Member Posts: 603
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    I will add a very valid point when comes to WOW. If the UI is so fluid,WHY the need for so many add ons?When you NEED add ons that says it is not up to par,not good enough,does it not?

    It's customizable, pure and simple. 

     

    It has absolutely nothing to do with the fluidity. 

     

    When you need addons.... huh?

    Technically you don't need them, but for boss raids and even in pvp the timers are very helpful. For the most part its customizability options for each player. I could argue that if your game of choice does not let you customixe the UI, your game of choice is lacking.

     

    I didn't quote the rest of your post but you sound like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder....

    image

  • mykxmykx Member Posts: 2
    Originally posted by Abdar

    WoW indeed has the most responsive combat/movement out there. The fact that it's tab targeting is irrelevant to those who are complaining about it. That's not really what the OP is talking about here.

    .... and no I don't play it anymore.. 

    Yeah I can see that tab targeting makes some of pve content in WoW kind of stale but in pvp movement/positioning is key. Heck imo WoW pvp is just as action packed as the "action" based mmos.

  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906

    Still not getting this conversation.

     

    You do realize that some games have delays on purpose?  For example you just cast a spell now you gotta wait 1/2 second before your character can move again because that spell has a lag delay after being cast.  Other spells have a lag delay before they are actually cast.  For example WOW paladin healing spell has a casting time.  Not all games give you a dummy bar to know you are currently casting or the time it takes.  Realism is you jump into the air and it takes a second to regain your footing.  WOW you jump in the air and spin around in circles then mid jump change directions.  Looks like Mario Brothers.

    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270
    Lulz wat?
  • SwaneaSwanea Member UncommonPosts: 2,397
    Originally posted by filmoret

    Still not getting this conversation.

     

    You do realize that some games have delays on purpose?  For example you just cast a spell now you gotta wait 1/2 second before your character can move again because that spell has a lag delay after being cast.  Other spells have a lag delay before they are actually cast.  For example WOW paladin healing spell has a casting time.  Not all games give you a dummy bar to know you are currently casting or the time it takes.  Realism is you jump into the air and it takes a second to regain your footing.  WOW you jump in the air and spin around in circles then mid jump change directions.  Looks like Mario Brothers.

    When I ran around in TOR and used casts, if I jumped a tenth of a second before the cast ended, it would break the cast.  But the cast bar looked FINISHED on my screen.  Spamming attacks often caused the global cooldown to get used, but no cast made.

    Warhammer was terrible in the fact that you would use an ability, with or without a cast time and you'd have some sort of lag in the actually start of any cast.

    And in Wow, you can jump, spin, use an instant, and spin back the direction you were facing while staying the same speed.  Almost any game I've played can't handle that in a fashion that keeps combat FLUID.

  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    My point is that not all combat is meant to operate like the current WOW engine.  Start running as fast as you can then come to a dead stop.  That just doesn't work like that and there are games that don't allow you to change direction as quickly or stop on a dime like WOW does.  It isn't an issue with superiority it is an issue with devs who assign delays to their skills/spells/movements.  Take Mass Effect for example.  You couldn't just turn around at the drop of a hat it actually took time for your character to slow down, stop, then turn in the other direction.  Granted the delay wasn't very long but it is noticeable. 
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • EvilestTwinEvilestTwin Member Posts: 286

    Aion is extremely fluid if you have < 100 ping.   Unfortunately the servers aren't that great so unless you live in Texas  you're going to get horrible ping.   Most NA players have 150 to 200 ping, which is unplayable for me.    The game is extremely responsive once you go into the double digits of ping.   You can literally tell the difference between 20 ping, 50 ping, and 100 ping.

    Example of what the game should be like but isn't due to bad networks:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJyLRi6TmSE&t=36

    Everyone in Korea has 20 ping.   There's a reason why it's one of the top MMOs in Korea.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member CommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by filmoret
    My point is that not all combat is meant to operate like the current WOW engine.  Start running as fast as you can then come to a dead stop.  That just doesn't work like that and there are games that don't allow you to change direction as quickly or stop on a dime like WOW does.  It isn't an issue with superiority it is an issue with devs who assign delays to their skills/spells/movements.  Take Mass Effect for example.  You couldn't just turn around at the drop of a hat it actually took time for your character to slow down, stop, then turn in the other direction.  Granted the delay wasn't very long but it is noticeable. 

    We're not talking about programmed delays, global cooldowns or built in "realism"  and it has nothing to do with ping. If it was any of those things they wouldn't be trying to fix them or make them work better. It does seem to be like trying to describe a color to someone who's been blind from birth though.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Member CommonPosts: 1,538
    Originally posted by mykx
    Originally posted by Abdar

    WoW indeed has the most responsive combat/movement out there. The fact that it's tab targeting is irrelevant to those who are complaining about it. That's not really what the OP is talking about here.

    .... and no I don't play it anymore.. 

    Yeah I can see that tab targeting makes some of pve content in WoW kind of stale but in pvp movement/positioning is key. Heck imo WoW pvp is just as action packed as the "action" based mmos.

    Its also every bit as 'skill'ful, at least at the mid/high end.  WoW has a low skill requirement to be bad-to-decent, and bad players will get destroyed in a game like TERA.  But competent to good players will catch on to TERA just the same as they will catch on to WoW.  

  • TheHavokTheHavok Member UncommonPosts: 2,423
    Originally posted by filmoret

    Still not getting this conversation.

     

    You do realize that some games have delays on purpose?  For example you just cast a spell now you gotta wait 1/2 second before your character can move again because that spell has a lag delay after being cast.  Other spells have a lag delay before they are actually cast.  For example WOW paladin healing spell has a casting time.  Not all games give you a dummy bar to know you are currently casting or the time it takes.  Realism is you jump into the air and it takes a second to regain your footing.  WOW you jump in the air and spin around in circles then mid jump change directions.  Looks like Mario Brothers.

    Lol, I understand what you are saying - but TRUST ME - 'lag delay' is not the correct term for your explanation.

    So, there are three things most of these wasd games have in common:

    1) Cast time

    2) Ability Animation

    3) Global cooldown

    Since we are all talking about WoW, lets use a frost mage as an example:

    A frost mage cast frostbolt.  It has a 2.0 second cast time.  The ability animation for frostbolt is 2.0 seconds.  The global cooldown for frostbolt is 1.0 seconds.

    What does this equal?  It means that the very second a mage cast frostbolt, he is free to move again (because the animation matched the actual cast time), however, the global cooldown makes him wait another second before he can cast another frostbolt (or ability).  But regardless he can still move.

    In SWTOR and Tera, many of the ability animations are longer then the cast time.  So a player may have a 2.0 second long cast time but the animation for said ability is 3.0 seconds.  That locks the player into the ability animation for an additional second (the player can't move his character until the ability animation is done!) even after the damage, heal, or whatever has occurred.

    So what does this mean?  You have less overall control of your character in Tera and SWTOR compared to WoW.

     

  • bopice12bopice12 Member Posts: 20

    Fluid combat is a maker or breaker for me. 

    wow did it first . 

     

    GW2 and neverwinter did it just as good too.....

     

    maybe your pc wasn't up to specs for gw2.    I don't know , but wow isn't more fluid than gw2 . 

    I've played wow for over a year on and off just for the combat . since release. 

    eqoa ps2  rogue gets close to wow fluiditity. :)

       lotro sucks for fluidness.   so does eq2.

     

    eq classic Bard was pretty fluid )) never had to stop moving.

     

    depends on if you mean reaction time to the button . or no casting time for all spells. . 

    reaction time GW2 is instant . wow is almost insta

  • AvsRock21AvsRock21 Member UncommonPosts: 256
    Originally posted by EvilestTwin

    Aion is extremely fluid if you have < 100 ping.   Unfortunately the servers aren't that great so unless you live in Texas  you're going to get horrible ping.   Most NA players have 150 to 200 ping, which is unplayable for me.    The game is extremely responsive once you go into the double digits of ping.   You can literally tell the difference between 20 ping, 50 ping, and 100 ping.

    Example of what the game should be like but isn't due to bad networks:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJyLRi6TmSE&t=36

    Everyone in Korea has 20 ping.   There's a reason why it's one of the top MMOs in Korea.

    Sorry, but it doesn't matter what kind of ping you have, Aion's combat isn't even remotely fluid. That game has so many animation locking skills that it's disgusting. On top of that you have an extremely poor and un-optimized, heavily modded version of CryEngine that it uses. Even on the best of hardware the game stutters. 

     

    I have to agree with the OP that WoW easily has the most fluid combat out of all traditional mmorpgs. I think GW2 comes in a close second. Those are the only two traditional mmorpgs that are even worth playing imo.

  • EvilestTwinEvilestTwin Member Posts: 286
    Originally posted by AvsRock21
    Originally posted by EvilestTwin

    Aion is extremely fluid if you have < 100 ping.   Unfortunately the servers aren't that great so unless you live in Texas  you're going to get horrible ping.   Most NA players have 150 to 200 ping, which is unplayable for me.    The game is extremely responsive once you go into the double digits of ping.   You can literally tell the difference between 20 ping, 50 ping, and 100 ping.

    Example of what the game should be like but isn't due to bad networks:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJyLRi6TmSE&t=36

    Everyone in Korea has 20 ping.   There's a reason why it's one of the top MMOs in Korea.

    Sorry, but it doesn't matter what kind of ping you have, Aion's combat isn't even remotely fluid. That game has so many animation locking skills that it's disgusting. On top of that you have an extremely poor and un-optimized, heavily modded version of CryEngine that it uses. Even on the best of hardware the game stutters. 

     

    I have to agree with the OP that WoW easily has the most fluid combat out of all traditional mmorpgs. I think GW2 comes in a close second. Those are the only two traditional mmorpgs that are even worth playing imo.

    I guess if that's what you consider 'fluid'.   Fighting games and real action games have animation locks for pretty much every move but Id consider them 'fluid'.    

     In Aion's case the skills that have animation lock can be jump cancelled, which is pretty much what all advanced pvp players in Aion do.   Just watch the video.   Regarding responsiveness, with low ping Aion is responsive enough for top players to respond to instant cast skills with < 0.5 second animation time just by seeing the animation for it.  The game was built and designed for Korean internet 

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    Combat is just one of those systems where people fall in love with one specific style.

    No rights or wrongs, just lots and lots and lots of very personal (very subjective, very prone to fanboy) preferences.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,226

    You can combat just fine in Vanguard underwater.

    Also, I once met a lowbie payer who just started VSoH, who complained mages would be insanely hard in VSoH.

    Turns out you cant move during spellcasting in WoW ... so much for "fluid combat" LOL !

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • sexypanda198sexypanda198 Member Posts: 151
    Because people who try to clone something never end up with better product. Like painting the replica can never and will never be better then the original. Key is to be unique/

    image

  • PurutzilPurutzil Member UncommonPosts: 3,048

    Really? I can list off dozens of games that do it better. Action games in particularly stand way above wow in how its handled. Not sure why you have this view on it. I mean heck, literally play wow right next to a friend. You can see the delay there is in the game. You will watch yourself move a second after you actually moved on your friend's screen. There is a delay in actions, its just handled a lot locally. If anything, its one of the worst games out ther for the 'reaction' time with the server, the difference is that it tends to 'disguise' it more then some other games that you might of seen with this issue (SWTOR use to be a good example).

     

     

    Originally posted by sexypanda198
    Because people who try to clone something never end up with better product. Like painting the replica can never and will never be better then the original. Key is to be unique/

    Exactly! Be unique like wow and create every single thing in your game from scratch... using what other people did before you and claiming it as your own.

     

    Seriously,  wow was fun, but theres very little in the game WoW actually was the 'first' to do. A vast majority of its elements were all taken from other sources, the latest being 'scenarios' which were taken after Rift's Chronicles basically. 

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Member UncommonPosts: 314
    So, is the OP really talking about responsive combat?

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • Punk999Punk999 Member UncommonPosts: 882

    From what i can say wildstar will match it.

    I think it has alot to do with animations etc.

    "Negaholics are people who become addicted to negativity and self-doubt, they find fault in most things and never seem to be satisfied."
    ^MMORPG.com

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