Pretty sure RVR its not going be as strictly tiered ala WAR or even DAOC. Though I know he's mentioned some lowbie zones, I am willing to bet its really not going ot be BGs.
Remember there is not supposed to be strict Verticial Progression. Think skyrim more than any other MMO
My interpretation of what Mark has said is that there will be the main RvR map that all characters can play in. Then there will be one battleground (in the DAOC sense of a separate permanent zone with uncapped populations and no time limit) that players up to level x (TBD) can also play in if they would prefer to only fight other players close to their level while they learn their class.
Not having played Skyrim, I'm not sure what kind of progression it has that you are referring to. The RvR progression Mark has described sounds to me very much like DAOC's realm abilities just by another name.
also not sure what he meant by skyrim as Skyrim is a very vertical type progression.. you have your choice of learning anything but you increase each ability in a vertical manner
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Pretty sure RVR its not going be as strictly tiered ala WAR or even DAOC. Though I know he's mentioned some lowbie zones, I am willing to bet its really not going ot be BGs.
Remember there is not supposed to be strict Verticial Progression. Think skyrim more than any other MMO
My interpretation of what Mark has said is that there will be the main RvR map that all characters can play in. Then there will be one battleground (in the DAOC sense of a separate permanent zone with uncapped populations and no time limit) that players up to level x (TBD) can also play in if they would prefer to only fight other players close to their level while they learn their class.
Not having played Skyrim, I'm not sure what kind of progression it has that you are referring to. The RvR progression Mark has described sounds to me very much like DAOC's realm abilities just by another name.
Here's probably the best articles to explain how Skyrim is different than standard RPG leveling.
Additionally RR systems still generally rewarded "XP" rather than simply noting what weapons you were using/ which weapon skills/positionals you used etc.
While I dont know this for sure, I am willing to bet there's more Skyrim in CU than DAOC.
also not sure what he meant by skyrim as Skyrim is a very vertical type progression.. you have your choice of learning anything but you increase each ability in a vertical manner
Sure you have to progress in the individual trees vertically but you aren't level restricted to teh particular trees.
horizontal progression is a bit of a misnomer (chalk it up to another MJism). Horizontal Progession is not about doing away with all progression but its about taking away the requirement that you have to be level 30 as a character to be reaching a certain weapon style/skill level.
Pretty sure RVR its not going be as strictly tiered ala WAR or even DAOC. Though I know he's mentioned some lowbie zones, I am willing to bet its really not going ot be BGs.
Remember there is not supposed to be strict Verticial Progression. Think skyrim more than any other MMO
My interpretation of what Mark has said is that there will be the main RvR map that all characters can play in. Then there will be one battleground (in the DAOC sense of a separate permanent zone with uncapped populations and no time limit) that players up to level x (TBD) can also play in if they would prefer to only fight other players close to their level while they learn their class.
Not having played Skyrim, I'm not sure what kind of progression it has that you are referring to. The RvR progression Mark has described sounds to me very much like DAOC's realm abilities just by another name.
Here's probably the best articles to explain how Skyrim is different than standard RPG leveling.
Additionally RR systems still generally rewarded "XP" rather than simply noting what weapons you were using/ which weapon skills/positionals you used etc.
While I dont know this for sure, I am willing to bet there's more Skyrim in CU than DAOC.
Skyrim is still a vertical progression system where you level up the trees and get increasingly better stuff. If Skyrim had multiplayer, a high level player would insta-toast a low level player. It does have more options that some RPGs because there isnt a class structure in Skyrim, however we will have a class system in CU.
So in short, no, a horizontal progression system does not look like Skyrim.
So in short, no, a horizontal progression system does not look like Skyrim.
Do you have an alternative analogy you'd like to explain Horizontal Progression?
I am willing to admit I am off base but I'd like to see how you would explain Horizontal progression.
look at gw1.. you hit level 20 fast.. after 20 you earned new skills.. not "stronger" necessarily but new skills with alternate effects that let you do new things.. if you have a HUGE pool of skills you can progress without just making current skills 10% stronger.. say you also get gems or sockets to further change how skills effect players. You don't need to just give someone +1 str or +5% damage to progress their character
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
So in short, no, a horizontal progression system does not look like Skyrim.
Do you have an alternative analogy you'd like to explain Horizontal Progression?
I am willing to admit I am off base but I'd like to see how you would explain Horizontal progression.
look at gw1.. you hit level 20 fast.. after 20 you earned new skills.. not "stronger" necessarily but new skills with alternate effects that let you do new things.. if you have a HUGE pool of skills you can progress without just making current skills 10% stronger.. say you get gems or sockets to further change how skills effect players. You don't need to just give someone +1 str or +5% damage to progress their character
never played GW1 or GW2
Were the skills progressive (ie linked) or were they exclusive (ie you had one skill that 25% ice damage on crit and one that did 25% fire damage on crit)?
So in short, no, a horizontal progression system does not look like Skyrim.
Do you have an alternative analogy you'd like to explain Horizontal Progression?
I am willing to admit I am off base but I'd like to see how you would explain Horizontal progression.
look at gw1.. you hit level 20 fast.. after 20 you earned new skills.. not "stronger" necessarily but new skills with alternate effects that let you do new things.. if you have a HUGE pool of skills you can progress without just making current skills 10% stronger.. say you get gems or sockets to further change how skills effect players. You don't need to just give someone +1 str or +5% damage to progress their character
never played GW1 or GW2
Were the skills progressive (ie linked) or were they exclusive (ie you had one skill that 25% ice damage on crit and one that did 25% fire damage on crit)?
mj already said you will NOT be limited in this game on skills though as far as how many you can use so you can have lots of hotbars and tons of skills to use whenever you want
you can do a lot with skills with proc skills, reactives, depending on what stats they use you can have skills for all sorts of things.. he already stated power levels from a new player ot a veteran won't be that differn't but the veteran will have access to a LOT more stuff than the newbie as far as how he can play his class and what he can do.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
In a vertical progression game like say wow the graph would curve upwards slightly as the latest endgame gear is always way more powerful than the last top set.
In a horizontal game the raw power would go up at first, but the curve would flatten out towards the horizontal.
Now also imagine a graph that is versatility vs time played In your vertical game this would rise more at the start as you get abilities while leveling and what not, but eventually would flatten out (hit max level). Note: the same as the power vs time graph for the horizontal game.
In your horizontal progression game the versatility graph would be a straight 45 degree line going on for a bloody long time. As you continuously unlock different but no more powerfull abilities, but you can only have so many in your load out at the same time.
A good example of a horizontal system is the very system in planetside 1. At first you went up in raw power in one role, but after a month or do additional advancement was in letting you swap to different roles (and been a hybrid)
Eve is sort of like that too,although of course the real progression / power in eve is how much cash you have.
Daoc kinda did both. The vertical was a much flatter curve than your wow or EQ after they started instancing it up. And rr worked both horizontally and vertically.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Way I see horizontal progression.
Imagine a graph of time played vs raw power.
In a vertical progression game like say wow the graph would curve upwards slightly as the latest endgame gear is always way more powerful than the last top set.
In a horizontal game the raw power would go up at first, but the curve would flatten out towards the horizontal.
Now also imagine a graph that is versatility vs time played In your vertical game this would rise more at the start as you get abilities while leveling and what not, but eventually would flatten out (hit max level). Note: the same as the power vs time graph for the horizontal game.
In your horizontal progression game the versatility graph would be a straight 45 degree line going on for a bloody long time. As you continuously unlock different but no more powerfull abilities, but you can only have so many in your load out at the same time.
A good example of a horizontal system is the very system in planetside 1. At first you went up in raw power in one role, but after a month or do additional advancement was in letting you swap to different roles (and been a hybrid)
Eve is sort of like that too,although of course the real progression / power in eve is how much cash you have.
Daoc kinda did both. The vertical was a much flatter curve than your wow or EQ after they started instancing it up. And rr worked both horizontally and vertically.
Originally posted by Aerowyn
you can do a lot with skills with proc skills, reactives, depending on what stats they use you can have skills for all sorts of things.. he already stated power levels from a new player ot a veteran won't be that differn't but the veteran will have access to a LOT more stuff than the newbie as far as how he can play his class and what he can do.
@Aerowyn So just to be clear: These horizontal skills were not linked and were not dependent on having previous skills?
Graph analogy helps alot and i think it helps me see that I think I was trying to say what you said Shaky MO.
The reason why I persist is the stubborn scientist mindset which is to say that I think we have more a terminology issue than an ontolgoical one. PS seems like it had more horizotnal than CU will have due to class restrictions.
Only reason why this matters is that so long as there are pre-reqs, simply having diffuse skill choices does not make it fundamentally less like a "verticial" progression but only flattens the progression out somewhat.
Most RPGs have a combination of both. As an example, WoW gives you more stats and skills as you level up. A level 90 character has 38935235252352 hit points and 38935295 defense so even an army of level 1 characters can't defeat him, while the level 90 can cast 1 aoe and instantly kill all level 1s near him. So the vertical progression is also very strong here. CU's vertical progression will be far lower. A smaller group of level 1s, especially if skilled, will be able to take on a max level character. An impossibility in WoW.
@Aerowyn So just to be clear: These horizontal skills were not linked and were not dependent on having previous skills?
gw1 had a bit of both BUT was also not just a PVP game also some skills you could use in PVE you could not use in PVP.. Taugrim has a decent video about horizontal progression
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Most RPGs have a combination of both. As an example, WoW gives you more stats and skills as you level up. A level 90 character has 38935235252352 hit points and 38935295 defense so even an army of level 1 characters can't defeat him, while the level 90 can cast 1 aoe and instantly kill all level 1s near him. So the vertical progression is also very strong here. CU's vertical progression will be far lower. A smaller group of level 1s, especially if skilled, will be able to take on a max level character. An impossibility in WoW.
That horizontal progression works but doesnt really work in a Class based system.
The video posted by aerwyn is interesting. his vision of Horizontal Progression still poses some issues but i like it a lot more than most vertical progression
Most RPGs have a combination of both. As an example, WoW gives you more stats and skills as you level up. A level 90 character has 38935235252352 hit points and 38935295 defense so even an army of level 1 characters can't defeat him, while the level 90 can cast 1 aoe and instantly kill all level 1s near him. So the vertical progression is also very strong here. CU's vertical progression will be far lower. A smaller group of level 1s, especially if skilled, will be able to take on a max level character. An impossibility in WoW.
That horizontal progression works but doesnt really work in a Class based system.
The video posted by aerwyn is interesting. his vision of Horizontal Progression still poses some issues but i like it a lot more than most vertical progression
why wouldn't it work in a class based system?.. it would be basically the same just got to think of classes having more flexability than traditional classes and not just a single way to play them.. if you do this you can have a lot of variety in skills for each class and still have set classes
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Most RPGs have a combination of both. As an example, WoW gives you more stats and skills as you level up. A level 90 character has 38935235252352 hit points and 38935295 defense so even an army of level 1 characters can't defeat him, while the level 90 can cast 1 aoe and instantly kill all level 1s near him. So the vertical progression is also very strong here. CU's vertical progression will be far lower. A smaller group of level 1s, especially if skilled, will be able to take on a max level character. An impossibility in WoW.
I agree, it won't likely be as unbalanced as a level based game such as WOW, however if you played DAOC back in the day a RR 10:10 character could pretty much mop the field of a small group of RR 2's and 3's.
Will be interesting to see how far they stretch the progression curve/gap and what sorts of abilities a player gets and when.
New Skill -Purge - very important when defending against CC
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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That horizontal progression works but doesnt really work in a Class based system.
The video posted by aerwyn is interesting. his vision of Horizontal Progression still poses some issues but i like it a lot more than most vertical progression
why wouldn't it work in a class based system?.. it would be basically the same just got to think of classes having more flexability than traditional classes and not just a single way to play them.. if you do this you can have a lot of variety in skills for each class and still have set classes
Why would a tank class have a spell? Why would a Healer have Armor Piercing Shot? etct
Sure there will be some shared skills but they wont be as what Axxor listed.
So in short, no, a horizontal progression system does not look like Skyrim.
Do you have an alternative analogy you'd like to explain Horizontal Progression?
I am willing to admit I am off base but I'd like to see how you would explain Horizontal progression.
Horizontal progression relies on the creation of incomparable abilities.
If you have fireball 1 and then get fireball 2, fireball 2 is just an incremental damage increase over fireball 1. Its automatically better so you use fireball 2, and if you fight someone using fireball 1 you just win.
Incomparable abilities mean that you instead create a variety of abilities with completely different effects that cant just be numerically compared to one another.
So maybe you have a stun vs a pbaoe vs a teleport. They all do totally different things, and as long as one isnt designed in a way thats overpowering, you could argue all day about which is actually better.
You have to expand that over an entire range of skills, which is more difficult and requires more creativity than just incrementing damage by 10, but in the process it eliminates all sorts of power creep related issues that you would have to deal with otherwise.
That horizontal progression works but doesnt really work in a Class based system.
The video posted by aerwyn is interesting. his vision of Horizontal Progression still poses some issues but i like it a lot more than most vertical progression
why wouldn't it work in a class based system?.. it would be basically the same just got to think of classes having more flexability than traditional classes and not just a single way to play them.. if you do this you can have a lot of variety in skills for each class and still have set classes
Why would a tank class have a spell? Why would a Healer have Armor Piercing Shot? etct
Sure there will be some shared skills but they wont be as what Axxor listed.
Those were examples of horisontal progression. Not the actual skill list of a specific class. Yeah, probably not likely a specific class would have exactly those skills at once, unless it was an arcane archer or other hyrid type.
Pure horizontal progression does usually not happen, atleast i can't offhand think of a game that uses it. Its always a mix of horizontal and vertical progression.
EvE is a very good example of this. Lets take a small ship like a frigate, you have on the frigate skill itself a vertical progression of 25%(5 levels). If you start learning a hauler skill next to it that part would be horizontal progression, because its not better but different your character grows but not in a way thats hurting frigate pilots since it won't make you any better in a frigate, its a sidegrate instead of a upgrade.
Another example of horizontal progression would be learning crafting in WoW as a nonraider and making yourself purple items. They increase the power of your char, but not as a direct result of your crafting skill. The purple items themself are vertical progression(if they are a upgrade), but the means by which you came by them(crafting) is horizontal progression.
Horizontal progression can lead to vertical progression(crafting; WoW), but it doesn't have too(learning to fly a new ship; EvE).
Pure horizontal progression does usually not happen, atleast i can't offhand think of a game that uses it. Its always a mix of horizontal and vertical progression.
EvE is a very good example of this. Lets take a small ship like a frigate, you have on the frigate skill itself a vertical progression of 25%(5 levels). If you start learning a hauler skill next to it that part would be horizontal progression, because its not better but different your character grows but not in a way thats hurting frigate pilots since it won't make you any better in a frigate, its a sidegrate instead of a upgrade.
Another example of horizontal progression would be learning crafting in WoW as a nonraider and making yourself purple items. They increase the power of your char, but not as a direct result of your crafting skill. The purple items themself are vertical progression(if they are a upgrade), but the means by which you came by them(crafting) is horizontal progression.
Horizontal progression can lead to vertical progression(crafting; WoW), but it doesn't have too(learning to fly a new ship; EvE).
I agree that EvE was/is the preeminent mostly horizontal progression game.
However, in a class based game there has to be some "vertical" progression but as ShakyMO pointed out the vertical curve will be much flatter than in other games.
First, it isn’t as popular as it may seem right now. The KickStarter campaign is nearly over, and there are lots of enthusiastic and very passionate backers out there drawing attention to it. The game’s not even trying to be popular, with a target player base of maybe 50’000-100’000 players it’s indeed very niche.
Next, I don’t share the “massive death match” point of view. There can be a lot more to PvP than just amassing kills, as Dark Age of Camelot has shown. Hence the term RvR instead of PvP. You’re not just “fighting for the heck of it”; you’ll be helping your Realm. Building, taking, holding and destroying keeps and other valuable structures. Fight over control of Mines and Dungeons, Artifacts and Relics. That seems a lot more consequential and meaningful to me, but maybe we just have different definitions of death match
It’s not all PvP, either. They’ve talked of 3 Pillars of gameplay, which besides RvR are housing and crafting. You become a renowned armorsmith, or build the most intricate traps imaginable, or the most beautiful houses. You might have a blast playing and helping your realm without ever killing another player.
The way I like to think of Camelot Unchained is that it actually has all the things that any other great MMORPG offers through PvE, just instead of being scripted and predictable it’s gonna be entirely player driven. Instead of Mobs in a dungeon, you’ll have enemy players attacking you in a mine. Instead of getting a quest from an NPC, a crafter may hire you to protect him on his trip. Instead of having PvE Raids, you have to conquer the Depths and defend yourself against player controlled (Boss)mobs and traps the other realm may have left behind. Instead of epic loot drops, you’ll get to mine rare materials (both equals top-end gear). Instead of an epic NPC story arc, you make your own epic story arc with the rise and fall of your character, your guild, your town, your realm…
I could imagine NPC quests have a place in this game too, if only for giving insights into the lore. DAoC did an outstanding job in this regard.
But at the end of the day, that’s not everyone’s cup of tea. The majority of players prefer a fair game, this isn’t it. There will be no equal-number instanced battlegrounds, no safety-nets to prevent you from dying to zergs, just you and the open world. You may constantly be the underdog-realm with fewer resources. You may even have your house burnt down without actually being able to do much about it. That’s part of the kick, and part of the reason why the community is so tightly knit. You have to rely on others, and you have to play your part if you truly want to achieve something.
Phew, wrote way more than I was going to but I couldn't get myself to leave any of it out... I guess I'm a lost cause when it comes to CU
That sounds amazing. This cemented my decision to pledge. Thank you
Pure horizontal progression does usually not happen, atleast i can't offhand think of a game that uses it. Its always a mix of horizontal and vertical progression.
EvE is a very good example of this. Lets take a small ship like a frigate, you have on the frigate skill itself a vertical progression of 25%(5 levels). If you start learning a hauler skill next to it that part would be horizontal progression, because its not better but different your character grows but not in a way thats hurting frigate pilots since it won't make you any better in a frigate, its a sidegrate instead of a upgrade.
Another example of horizontal progression would be learning crafting in WoW as a nonraider and making yourself purple items. They increase the power of your char, but not as a direct result of your crafting skill. The purple items themself are vertical progression(if they are a upgrade), but the means by which you came by them(crafting) is horizontal progression.
Horizontal progression can lead to vertical progression(crafting; WoW), but it doesn't have too(learning to fly a new ship; EvE).
I agree that EvE was/is the preeminent mostly horizontal progression game.
However, in a class based game there has to be some "vertical" progression but as ShakyMO pointed out the vertical curve will be much flatter than in other games.
Well actually there is plenty of Vertical progression in EvE. With ship boni, weapon boni, t2 boni, tracking/sig skills we are easily talking about >100% damage difference unskilled vs skilled. So very significiant vertical progression, but not silly like WoWs difference between a level 1 and level 90 dps difference.
First, it isn’t as popular as it may seem right now. The KickStarter campaign is nearly over, and there are lots of enthusiastic and very passionate backers out there drawing attention to it. The game’s not even trying to be popular, with a target player base of maybe 50’000-100’000 players it’s indeed very niche.
Next, I don’t share the “massive death match” point of view. There can be a lot more to PvP than just amassing kills, as Dark Age of Camelot has shown. Hence the term RvR instead of PvP. You’re not just “fighting for the heck of it”; you’ll be helping your Realm. Building, taking, holding and destroying keeps and other valuable structures. Fight over control of Mines and Dungeons, Artifacts and Relics. That seems a lot more consequential and meaningful to me, but maybe we just have different definitions of death match
It’s not all PvP, either. They’ve talked of 3 Pillars of gameplay, which besides RvR are housing and crafting. You become a renowned armorsmith, or build the most intricate traps imaginable, or the most beautiful houses. You might have a blast playing and helping your realm without ever killing another player.
The way I like to think of Camelot Unchained is that it actually has all the things that any other great MMORPG offers through PvE, just instead of being scripted and predictable it’s gonna be entirely player driven. Instead of Mobs in a dungeon, you’ll have enemy players attacking you in a mine. Instead of getting a quest from an NPC, a crafter may hire you to protect him on his trip. Instead of having PvE Raids, you have to conquer the Depths and defend yourself against player controlled (Boss)mobs and traps the other realm may have left behind. Instead of epic loot drops, you’ll get to mine rare materials (both equals top-end gear). Instead of an epic NPC story arc, you make your own epic story arc with the rise and fall of your character, your guild, your town, your realm…
I could imagine NPC quests have a place in this game too, if only for giving insights into the lore. DAoC did an outstanding job in this regard.
But at the end of the day, that’s not everyone’s cup of tea. The majority of players prefer a fair game, this isn’t it. There will be no equal-number instanced battlegrounds, no safety-nets to prevent you from dying to zergs, just you and the open world. You may constantly be the underdog-realm with fewer resources. You may even have your house burnt down without actually being able to do much about it. That’s part of the kick, and part of the reason why the community is so tightly knit. You have to rely on others, and you have to play your part if you truly want to achieve something.
Phew, wrote way more than I was going to but I couldn't get myself to leave any of it out... I guess I'm a lost cause when it comes to CU
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also not sure what he meant by skyrim as Skyrim is a very vertical type progression.. you have your choice of learning anything but you increase each ability in a vertical manner
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/04/18/skyrim-skills/
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/04/18/20-best-things-about-skyrim/#comment-670001
Here's probably the best articles to explain how Skyrim is different than standard RPG leveling.
Additionally RR systems still generally rewarded "XP" rather than simply noting what weapons you were using/ which weapon skills/positionals you used etc.
While I dont know this for sure, I am willing to bet there's more Skyrim in CU than DAOC.
Sure you have to progress in the individual trees vertically but you aren't level restricted to teh particular trees.
horizontal progression is a bit of a misnomer (chalk it up to another MJism). Horizontal Progession is not about doing away with all progression but its about taking away the requirement that you have to be level 30 as a character to be reaching a certain weapon style/skill level.
Skyrim is still a vertical progression system where you level up the trees and get increasingly better stuff. If Skyrim had multiplayer, a high level player would insta-toast a low level player. It does have more options that some RPGs because there isnt a class structure in Skyrim, however we will have a class system in CU.
So in short, no, a horizontal progression system does not look like Skyrim.
Do you have an alternative analogy you'd like to explain Horizontal Progression?
I am willing to admit I am off base but I'd like to see how you would explain Horizontal progression.
look at gw1.. you hit level 20 fast.. after 20 you earned new skills.. not "stronger" necessarily but new skills with alternate effects that let you do new things.. if you have a HUGE pool of skills you can progress without just making current skills 10% stronger.. say you also get gems or sockets to further change how skills effect players. You don't need to just give someone +1 str or +5% damage to progress their character
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
never played GW1 or GW2
Were the skills progressive (ie linked) or were they exclusive (ie you had one skill that 25% ice damage on crit and one that did 25% fire damage on crit)?
gw1 had lots of differn't types of skills but you were also limited to only 8 at a time and choose from your pool before going out to fight.. here has some skills to see what they had on gw1.. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Skill#Learning_and_unlocking_skills
mj already said you will NOT be limited in this game on skills though as far as how many you can use so you can have lots of hotbars and tons of skills to use whenever you want
you can do a lot with skills with proc skills, reactives, depending on what stats they use you can have skills for all sorts of things.. he already stated power levels from a new player ot a veteran won't be that differn't but the veteran will have access to a LOT more stuff than the newbie as far as how he can play his class and what he can do.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Imagine a graph of time played vs raw power.
In a vertical progression game like say wow the graph would curve upwards slightly as the latest endgame gear is always way more powerful than the last top set.
In a horizontal game the raw power would go up at first, but the curve would flatten out towards the horizontal.
Now also imagine a graph that is versatility vs time played
In your vertical game this would rise more at the start as you get abilities while leveling and what not, but eventually would flatten out (hit max level). Note: the same as the power vs time graph for the horizontal game.
In your horizontal progression game the versatility graph would be a straight 45 degree line going on for a bloody long time.
As you continuously unlock different but no more powerfull abilities, but you can only have so many in your load out at the same time.
A good example of a horizontal system is the very system in planetside 1. At first you went up in raw power in one role, but after a month or do additional advancement was in letting you swap to different roles (and been a hybrid)
Eve is sort of like that too,although of course the real progression / power in eve is how much cash you have.
Daoc kinda did both. The vertical was a much flatter curve than your wow or EQ after they started instancing it up.
And rr worked both horizontally and vertically.
@Aerowyn So just to be clear: These horizontal skills were not linked and were not dependent on having previous skills?
@ShakyMO
Graph analogy helps alot and i think it helps me see that I think I was trying to say what you said Shaky MO.
The reason why I persist is the stubborn scientist mindset which is to say that I think we have more a terminology issue than an ontolgoical one. PS seems like it had more horizotnal than CU will have due to class restrictions.
Only reason why this matters is that so long as there are pre-reqs, simply having diffuse skill choices does not make it fundamentally less like a "verticial" progression but only flattens the progression out somewhat.
Vertical progression
+100 HP
+ 50 Mana
Fireball Rank 18
+ 50 Strength
Horisontal progression
New skill: Fire Bolt
New skill: Armor Piercing Shot
New skill: Teleport
New skill: Weaponsmithing
Most RPGs have a combination of both. As an example, WoW gives you more stats and skills as you level up. A level 90 character has 38935235252352 hit points and 38935295 defense so even an army of level 1 characters can't defeat him, while the level 90 can cast 1 aoe and instantly kill all level 1s near him. So the vertical progression is also very strong here. CU's vertical progression will be far lower. A smaller group of level 1s, especially if skilled, will be able to take on a max level character. An impossibility in WoW.
gw1 had a bit of both BUT was also not just a PVP game also some skills you could use in PVE you could not use in PVP.. Taugrim has a decent video about horizontal progression
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0Zn81sY7pqI#!
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That horizontal progression works but doesnt really work in a Class based system.
The video posted by aerwyn is interesting. his vision of Horizontal Progression still poses some issues but i like it a lot more than most vertical progression
why wouldn't it work in a class based system?.. it would be basically the same just got to think of classes having more flexability than traditional classes and not just a single way to play them.. if you do this you can have a lot of variety in skills for each class and still have set classes
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I agree, it won't likely be as unbalanced as a level based game such as WOW, however if you played DAOC back in the day a RR 10:10 character could pretty much mop the field of a small group of RR 2's and 3's.
Will be interesting to see how far they stretch the progression curve/gap and what sorts of abilities a player gets and when.
New Skill -Purge - very important when defending against CC
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Why would a tank class have a spell? Why would a Healer have Armor Piercing Shot? etct
Sure there will be some shared skills but they wont be as what Axxor listed.
Horizontal progression relies on the creation of incomparable abilities.
If you have fireball 1 and then get fireball 2, fireball 2 is just an incremental damage increase over fireball 1. Its automatically better so you use fireball 2, and if you fight someone using fireball 1 you just win.
Incomparable abilities mean that you instead create a variety of abilities with completely different effects that cant just be numerically compared to one another.
So maybe you have a stun vs a pbaoe vs a teleport. They all do totally different things, and as long as one isnt designed in a way thats overpowering, you could argue all day about which is actually better.
You have to expand that over an entire range of skills, which is more difficult and requires more creativity than just incrementing damage by 10, but in the process it eliminates all sorts of power creep related issues that you would have to deal with otherwise.
Those were examples of horisontal progression. Not the actual skill list of a specific class. Yeah, probably not likely a specific class would have exactly those skills at once, unless it was an arcane archer or other hyrid type.
Pure horizontal progression does usually not happen, atleast i can't offhand think of a game that uses it. Its always a mix of horizontal and vertical progression.
EvE is a very good example of this. Lets take a small ship like a frigate, you have on the frigate skill itself a vertical progression of 25%(5 levels). If you start learning a hauler skill next to it that part would be horizontal progression, because its not better but different your character grows but not in a way thats hurting frigate pilots since it won't make you any better in a frigate, its a sidegrate instead of a upgrade.
Another example of horizontal progression would be learning crafting in WoW as a nonraider and making yourself purple items. They increase the power of your char, but not as a direct result of your crafting skill. The purple items themself are vertical progression(if they are a upgrade), but the means by which you came by them(crafting) is horizontal progression.
Horizontal progression can lead to vertical progression(crafting; WoW), but it doesn't have too(learning to fly a new ship; EvE).
I agree that EvE was/is the preeminent mostly horizontal progression game.
However, in a class based game there has to be some "vertical" progression but as ShakyMO pointed out the vertical curve will be much flatter than in other games.
That sounds amazing. This cemented my decision to pledge. Thank you
Well actually there is plenty of Vertical progression in EvE. With ship boni, weapon boni, t2 boni, tracking/sig skills we are easily talking about >100% damage difference unskilled vs skilled. So very significiant vertical progression, but not silly like WoWs difference between a level 1 and level 90 dps difference.
Must quote this!
Extremely well said Moraxo.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.