So you're trying to say that no other MMOs should even bother trying because being numbers 2 isn't even good enough? Ridiculous. Unless you're talking about some fanboy garbage list wars then as far as BW is concerned there is most certainly a difference between being #2 and being #89.
You proved it yourself in your other post. You couldn't even name 4 other sub ONLY MMOs. I guess to you that could mean that every MMO that isn't sub only is a failure but that flies in the face of basic logic and understanding of the current marketplace. Here is an article from before SWTOR even launched showing how the entire industry was seeing subscription numbers decline:
SWTOR was in development when sub only was the norm and they tried to stick to that model but it just wasn't bringing in enough cash to keep their large development team going. Kotaku wrote about it here The Subscription MMO Is Dead
Yeah, that last line really is quite a wild guess, the evidence doesn't support that. I'm sure they said drop the servers because it wasn't financially feasible but not because of ROTHC, it's because even combined there just weren't enough players to make those servers healthy enough. So many people had already rerolled on to NA or EU servers. Your assertion that the game is not retaining players is just you expressing what you wish was the case, there is no evidence to support that. Torstatus doesn't show it, Xfire doesn't show it, BW has specifically said that sub numbers are going up and anecdotally I haven't seen any drop in player numbers on my server. The fleet always has 2 instances except in the very late night/early morning and during ROTHC launch there was actually queues on my server.
Yep, we'll see.
I'm saying that #2 in the western MMO market isn't worth crowing about. #2 has a tiny market share, and not one significantly higher than any of the positions after it.
I never said a non-sub only game couldn't be a success, though I personally don't feel F2P is a viable payment model for a healthy AAA MMO. What I'm saying is that a game's development cost determines the expectations for its success, and something like 10% of the market for the game that cost by far the most is by definition not a success. The reason we don't have more sub based MMOs is BECAUSE we have had so many unsuccessful games. The trend toward launching as F2P now is merely a symptom of developers being gunshy of putting in large amounts of money into development anymore. But again, if F2P is so much better than sub, why hasn't WoW switched while they're still on top? Do they not want more money? Are they now suddenly stuck in their old ways when the entire reason they've stayed on top is because of their ability to adapt to the changing market better than any of their competitors?
And yes, it is a guess, but I don't consider it a wild guess. You really can't have it both ways, either APAC population could make at least 1 healthy server, or population is on a serious slide. And you can argue that a heavy decline in population on APAC doesn't mean anything for US servers, but I think that's pretty shortsighted. I don't base my opinion of declining population on wishful thinking. Though I certainly don't like the game in general, I don't mind its continued existence, heh. I played the game, and I saw population declining only a month or so after the F2P launch. And not the typical fading blush most games have after new content, but closer to the dropoff experienced at launch which I also experienced firsthand.
But who knows, maybe ROTHC turned it around for more than just the short term, I have a really, REALLY hard time buying that, but I also didn't play any of it so...
the only remaining sub games , i know, are the old giants,,wow and EVE
RIft is still sub based and puts out a lot of content.
Originally posted by Lord-Kronk
You can play Battlefield and kill people, but they draw the line at gambling. How the hell does that make any sense at all? There is a massive disconnect from reality on these ratings.
I'm not bashing on battlefield. I'm not bashing on SWTOR. I was answer his question on why there weren't certain games (pazaak) and such in SWTOR when Bioware had it in it's other starwars games. And I simply brought up the retarded logic that these people use for their game ratings and what they think it so much for "impressionable young minds" to handle.
It's pretty weird that the Teen rating would ban virtual gambling but allow real money gambling via the cartel packs.
rift isnt sub based,,i could download the whole client , and play, for free
No it is not dead, good games with subscription models continue to grow up to this day, you have just been playing very bad themepark subscription games.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
let me get this straight,,you want to play a star wars mmo,,but you dont want kids to play it?
i guess they could make one, just for adults, but it would be VERY small,,and VERY cheap
a game of swtor size has to go for the biggest playerbase they can get
and it looks like they dont have enough
Or you could read what I said and not make random assumptions. EA doesn't allow gambling in their games. That's all was pointing out. We got a game that was going to allow gambling of sorts, playing cards and betting in game credits for it, but because of EA, we couldn't get it. That is total bs, and EA sucks big for it. Who else finds it completely freaking asinine that it's ok for a game to have killing in it, Battlefield series, and it's ok. Oh, there isn't any blood therefor it isn't to much.... Give me a freaking break...
You can play Battlefield and kill people, but they draw the line at gambling. How the hell does that make any sense at all? There is a massive disconnect from reality on these ratings.
I'm not bashing on battlefield. I'm not bashing on SWTOR. I was answer his question on why there weren't certain games (pazaak) and such in SWTOR when Bioware had it in it's other starwars games. And I simply brought up the retarded logic that these people use for their game ratings and what they think it so much for "impressionable young minds" to handle.
one thing brainwashes the youth, teaching them, that violence is the solution to all problems,,no problem
murders are pretty rare anyway (irony)
but gambling,,? you know, the kid will steal a creditcard, and spend moms and dads hard earned cash
thats a DISASTER
but since they have introduced gambling via the cartel packs, your argument is wrong
logging into an mmo gives me the opportunity to do all kinds of cool and exciting things
in swtor i can swing my lightsabre , or take a trip in my spaceship
playing cards, i could do that in real life,,if i wanted to, i dont need an mmo for that
swoop racing, yes,,but card games?
and if STO hadnt put dabo in one of the quests, i think most players would NEVER touch it
Though I am not a Pazaak person either, I understand why. Its because its just another form of immersion. Many out there feel as if immersion means more than having all elements of gameplay included such as PVE, PVP, batllegrounds, etc. It means the little things that make the game feel more 'role playing' and immersive in nature. Day Night Cycles, Swimming, Sitting on a chair, movable objects, fishing, playing songs like in Lord of the Rings, all these things add to the immersion.
but since they have introduced gambling via the cartel packs, your argument is wrong
My argument is wrong? It's a fact. Go look it up. And while the Cartel packs are a form of chance, buying something for a chance at getting a rare item. It isn't gambling. You always get something in return for what you put in and you can give those items to anyone of your alts.
Gambling generally requires risk. You play something of value against someone else who places something of value and you win or lose. Do I really need to go into more detail here?
Even SWTOR 3.0 wouldn't get me back unless they optimized the engine.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Comments
I'm saying that #2 in the western MMO market isn't worth crowing about. #2 has a tiny market share, and not one significantly higher than any of the positions after it.
I never said a non-sub only game couldn't be a success, though I personally don't feel F2P is a viable payment model for a healthy AAA MMO. What I'm saying is that a game's development cost determines the expectations for its success, and something like 10% of the market for the game that cost by far the most is by definition not a success. The reason we don't have more sub based MMOs is BECAUSE we have had so many unsuccessful games. The trend toward launching as F2P now is merely a symptom of developers being gunshy of putting in large amounts of money into development anymore. But again, if F2P is so much better than sub, why hasn't WoW switched while they're still on top? Do they not want more money? Are they now suddenly stuck in their old ways when the entire reason they've stayed on top is because of their ability to adapt to the changing market better than any of their competitors?
And yes, it is a guess, but I don't consider it a wild guess. You really can't have it both ways, either APAC population could make at least 1 healthy server, or population is on a serious slide. And you can argue that a heavy decline in population on APAC doesn't mean anything for US servers, but I think that's pretty shortsighted. I don't base my opinion of declining population on wishful thinking. Though I certainly don't like the game in general, I don't mind its continued existence, heh. I played the game, and I saw population declining only a month or so after the F2P launch. And not the typical fading blush most games have after new content, but closer to the dropoff experienced at launch which I also experienced firsthand.
But who knows, maybe ROTHC turned it around for more than just the short term, I have a really, REALLY hard time buying that, but I also didn't play any of it so...
rift isnt sub based,,i could download the whole client , and play, for free
No it is not dead, good games with subscription models continue to grow up to this day, you have just been playing very bad themepark subscription games.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
one thing brainwashes the youth, teaching them, that violence is the solution to all problems,,no problem
murders are pretty rare anyway (irony)
but gambling,,? you know, the kid will steal a creditcard, and spend moms and dads hard earned cash
thats a DISASTER
but since they have introduced gambling via the cartel packs, your argument is wrong
i really never understood the pazaak crowd
logging into an mmo gives me the opportunity to do all kinds of cool and exciting things
in swtor i can swing my lightsabre , or take a trip in my spaceship
playing cards, i could do that in real life,,if i wanted to, i dont need an mmo for that
swoop racing, yes,,but card games?
and if STO hadnt put dabo in one of the quests, i think most players would NEVER touch it
Though I am not a Pazaak person either, I understand why. Its because its just another form of immersion. Many out there feel as if immersion means more than having all elements of gameplay included such as PVE, PVP, batllegrounds, etc. It means the little things that make the game feel more 'role playing' and immersive in nature. Day Night Cycles, Swimming, Sitting on a chair, movable objects, fishing, playing songs like in Lord of the Rings, all these things add to the immersion.
There Is Always Hope!
My argument is wrong? It's a fact. Go look it up. And while the Cartel packs are a form of chance, buying something for a chance at getting a rare item. It isn't gambling. You always get something in return for what you put in and you can give those items to anyone of your alts.
Gambling generally requires risk. You play something of value against someone else who places something of value and you win or lose. Do I really need to go into more detail here?
It's a pretty average singleplayer game with some really bad story and ham fisted settings/characters.
It's an ABYSMAL MMO.
be dead by now.
stellar battles? that sounds interesting,,whos behind it?
is it sub based or B2P?
no matter,, if its scifi mmo, ill play it,,just take my money