I agree with a currency idea from the LFR. I lost alot of my will to play because I played the LFR every week on my main and have yet to get trinkets. I never rep grinded for them, just don't care enough. My wife has played for maybe 5 months, and has yet to get enough gear to move past mogushan vaults. Nothing drops for her, and she don't care to play anymore either. I really can't blame her.
As for the LFR not being for casuals, thats a crock, I can log in, play the raids and log out once a week with almost 0 investment in the rest of the game. It is perfect for that. There will always be people who are not cut out for it. I played with a mage that was doing 50% the damage the tank was doing, and that person got kicked. Even though we were killing stuff fine. In all cooperative ventures, a certain level of competence is expected. I have yet to see someone beating the tanks in dps and getting kicked. Healers and Tanks require more skill and have more responsibility, but at the same time the bar is lower than a regular raid. I see tanks getting kicked the most but it is normally a person in dps gear wanting a quick queue.
I was going to write a retrospect on WoW from the viewpoint of a returning vanilla (up to WotLK) player, yes I know there are plenty of those.
But I will say: the LFR system has reinforced my hatred of RNG loot systems even more. Though I like it as an "easymode" introduction to raids.
I do agree with Blizzard's decision not to implement Need / Greed rolls on these raids. The amount of ninjas who ninja just to spite others is already spiralling out of control in regular instances. No need for that crap in LFR.
However, the system just doesn't give any control to the player at all. And that's what bugs me.
For example: you go to LFR and this one week you get nothing but new shoulders. You think: "Well, at least I got these nice shoulders, I actually needed a weapon, but I'm happy I got these."
Then the next week, you go at it again and get nothing, except for... Guess what? SHOULDERS, of similar quality, off of another boss or even the same one. It's frustrating. That story was what happened to me btw.
As for the bonus rolls, I've now spent over 20 bonus rolls and have never once gotten anything but gold out of them. I also DETEST dailies with a fury that burns brighter than the sun, so yeah.
The solution for me is simple: remove any manner of RNG from LFR.
Just implement a new currency for each tier of LFR. Every boss gives an amount of this currency when the first kill of the week occurs and completing the instance for the first time gives some extra. WoW already has a great number of currencies, one more won't hurt.
You can then take this currency to a vendor who offers you the choice to pick from the entire loot table of the instance according to your needs. So you can then save up for that weapon without receiving duplicate items that you do not need.
Bonus rolls would stay the same, but would offer a significant chance to receive extra currency. Together with a smaller chance to recieve items.
I see your entitled view. I believe RNG is good becauses it makes people repeat the content. Running it once and getting all the gear you need is a undesireable design. Then again I am old compared to the kids today.
If you have a currency you ensure it has to be repeated X number of times without creating the possibility of having people who get geared in 1 run (this literally happened to my mage in dragon soul, I got my 4 set bonus and weapon my first run) or people who raid weekly for almost half a year and get nothing (see my post about my wife) It takes the rush of getting loot away, but you can't have it all. Maybe a roll for random amounts of currency. So you may get enough to easily buy a peice of gear from one fight, or 10% of that amount or something in between.
I was against LFR at first, but after doing them several times, i realized it's a great way for people to get a quick raid, instead of spamming in chat channels or waiting on guild schedules.
Originally posted by mysticalspam LFR sux... pretty much every one i been in if you win a piece of gear you get kicked by the people that lost the roll...
Nobody knows who won unless you link your item in raid chat.
[mod edit]
Apparently you haven't run an LFR since Cataclysm. All loot is individual now, you don't roll against the other people in your raid. You either get loot from the boss or you don't. And no one else in the raid can see if you got an item unless you decide to link it in raid chat.
MMO's are about gear grind (see GW2, WoW is no exception) , you make it to easy and people leave, this will not change, blizzard learned that lesson awhile back. Take the grind out, you got no game.
Till the actual design is changed in MMO's to something new that takes this grind aspect away, this is what every MMO will be doomed to play.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
LFR should be mostly for PLAYING the content, not GEARING. When did it go from 'experiencing' content to gearing for it?
WoW's endgame has been like that since launch. Raiding endgames are always like that. For that matter, endgames are nearly always like that.
The basic problem is that you experience the content once, and if that's all that the content is about, then you go maybe once or twice and then never go back. That would let players breeze through endgames in a week, rather than making them stay for months and keep paying a subscription fee. That defeats the entire point of an endgame. Letting players finish the endgame too fast would effectively convert it to real content and leave the game with no endgame at all. From a consumer perspective, I'd be all in favor of that, but developers can't do that for financial reasons.
Originally posted by Quizzical The problem is an endgame built around raiding for gear. Everything else is just details. Any proposals to change it amount to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic: the end result isn't going to change much.
Wrong. People play WoW because it is a gear based game. There is actually something to work for while you play and enjoy the game. This is why GW2 failed, there was nothing to work for. Looking at WoW's steady population, it's easy to tell that people like playing for gear. This new system they implemented fixes more problems than it creates. I recently came back to WoW, albeit somewhat hesitantly.
Some people like playing a game for fun, and some people like playing a game for gear that doesn't exist outside of the game. Guild Wars 2 was created for the former and World of Warcraft for the latter. And Guild Wars 2 is hardly a failure.
If you're going to play a game for the gear, then you can't complain that you get gear too slowly or erratically, which is the underlying complaint of any RNG system. A game that you play for gear is supposed to mete out gear slowly; that's the whole point of the game.
It is good to hear that WoW finally did something about the ninja looting problem that had plagued it since launch, however.
personally my ideal outcome would be to make raids that are difficult enough that a randomly assembled group of players should not be able to complete the raid.
i see that unfair loot practices (Example, ninja-looting) is one of the root causes of Bliz changing the game's systems to accomodate raids that are formed like this. a lot of this comes from the fact that people who meet on "Lfr" dont have any investment in one another, the way that folks in a guild should have by virtue of working together day in day out for a matter of months and years.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Originally posted by jesteralways the idea behind LFR was that casual players who don't have too much time in hand to run regular raids could experience end game content. but guess what, it is not going on like that, hardcore raiding guilds are farming LFR to gear up for regular raids and not only that; people who are actually doing LFR are not at all "casual', one mistake as healer or tank and/or as dps someone who has the lowest gets kicked. i have run a couple of LFR and i have seen the "casual" mentatlity in there. i think LFR needs to go as it is not fulfilling it's purpose(bringing end game to casuals).
Are you serious??? So some people are using it to gear up their raid force, and you just want to shut down the whole thing???? Dude, what? What is your really motivating you to say this?
The only problem people have with the system, imho, is the randomness of it all. On my monk and warlock for instance, I would get 3 pieces minimum a week from LFR. While my fellow guildmates and friends doing the exact same LFR wouldn't get a single drop the entire week. My Hunter went a whole month with only getting 2 drops the entire month, and that's with full bonus rolls, and 1 guild raid on normal (4 bosses).
I think there should be a failsafe system to back it up. You should have an increased drop rate for every boss you didn't get a drop from, which resets when you get a drop. Make it like 15% for every boss roll that you didn't get a drop. If you kill a boss, and doesn't drop, if you use your bonus roll you'll get 30% chance, if it doesn't drop, the next boss gives 45% chance, if no drop, bonus roll gives 60% chance, etc. Until you get a loot roll.
Originally posted by Quizzical The problem is an endgame built around raiding for gear. Everything else is just details. Any proposals to change it amount to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic: the end result isn't going to change much.
Wrong. People play WoW because it is a gear based game. There is actually something to work for while you play and enjoy the game. This is why GW2 failed, there was nothing to work for. Looking at WoW's steady population, it's easy to tell that people like playing for gear. This new system they implemented fixes more problems than it creates. I recently came back to WoW, albeit somewhat hesitantly. GW2 was a huge disappointment and EVE, while awesome, wasn't scratching a recent rpg itch. I can say that WoW is still fun as hell. And if you embrace the changes made to the game, you can find positives in everything. I've even warmed up to the new talent system and how it has dealt with cookie cutter specs very nicely.
Originally posted by Quizzical The problem is an endgame built around raiding for gear. Everything else is just details. Any proposals to change it amount to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic: the end result isn't going to change much.
Wrong. People play WoW because it is a gear based game. There is actually something to work for while you play and enjoy the game. This is why GW2 failed, there was nothing to work for. Looking at WoW's steady population, it's easy to tell that people like playing for gear. This new system they implemented fixes more problems than it creates. I recently came back to WoW, albeit somewhat hesitantly. GW2 was a huge disappointment and EVE, while awesome, wasn't scratching a recent rpg itch. I can say that WoW is still fun as hell. And if you embrace the changes made to the game, you can find positives in everything. I've even warmed up to the new talent system and how it has dealt with cookie cutter specs very nicely.
Just a point I'd like to make, in no shape or form did Guild Wars 2 fail. The population is very high in fact and I've had to queue up just to join the regular server. It doesn't mean that just because every game doesn't have WoW's population numbers that they have somehow failed. You can have your opinion that GW2 isn't good or whatever, but in no way or shape can you say it "failed." Because it simply didn't.
Originally posted by theniffrig Some players just want a small 8ft X 8ft room with a big chest that has guaranteed loot. No need to fight bosses, no need to spend time playing the game, just give them the carrots instantly & for zero effort.
I find these posts just so hilarious.... it's actually not even funny.
You still have to clear the same RAID. Just that people don't have to become eachothers worst enemies everytime and fight over loot after each RAID!
When I was still playing WoW back in the Vanilla days.... RAID guilds had the shortest lifespan of any guild.... all due to bitching and fighting over loot. You don't want to know the language, rage and drama that went on in guild chats day after day after day. lol.
If people enjoy that kind of stuff and get a kick out of it, then they have some serious mental and social issues.
This loot system they just implemented is how it should have always been. Now people can just do RAIDs, enjoy them, without having to fight over loot each time.
Originally posted by 240joe Solution ... earn markers per boss to buy gear ... everyone puts in same effort to get equal reward! RNG is bullshit! it is that simple.
It's just superficial. The end result will be the same.
LOTRO for example has marks system for their dungeons and RAIDs and you don't want to know how many marks you need to collect to buy even a single piece of topgear!
Trust me, such a system is even worse than RNG. It would turn RAIDing into a total mindless mark grind. Just to buy gear.
At least with an RNG system you still have some excitement, as you never know what you'll get. That is a hell lot more fun, then getting a guaranteed mark and knowing you need to do it another couple hundred times to be able to buy a complete set of gear.
RAIDing would just become a calculated grind. Blehh.
I haven't played with the new system. It seems ok for casual raids to me. What they'd change though should be this, in my opinion: each time a player gets nothing, their chance to get something the next time is increased.
Just to use some random numbers (as said, I haven't played WoW for a while):
Basic chance to get an item after a boss fight: 25%
If you don't get something, the next fight, it's increased to 40%. Then 55%, 70%, 85%, 100%.
So you are very lucky to get two items in a row, but you are also guaranteed a drop after getting nothing for five fights.
I see your entitled view. I believe RNG is good becauses it makes people repeat the content. Running it once and getting all the gear you need is a undesireable design. Then again I am old compared to the kids today.
Who said anything about only doing it once? I'd be perfectly happy to wait several weeks if I knew I'd then have enough to buy item X. If you think I'm into the mentality of the average WoW player nowadays, you're dead wrong.
Right now, some people get geared very quickly, while others get jack shit for doing the exact same (or even doing much more). A friend of mine got from ilevel 470 to ilevel 495 or so in one day. She first got a streak of luck in the Heart of Fear / Terrace raids, then again in the new ToT LFR. That same process took me like 2 months.
Give control to the players, and at the same time the devs can also control how many times they want players to run it before they're fully geared for that tier. Those players who are truly hardcore about getting shit could still gather up all the elder charms by doing dailies and get a lot more currency.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
LFR should be mostly for PLAYING the content, not GEARING. When did it go from 'experiencing' content to gearing for it?
Either way just heavy emphasis that raiding (at least in wow) is dead. Good bye progression and feeling sof achievement, hello making everything so easy a caveman could do it (couldn't resist!).
When will people realize that difficulty and the work done to achieve a kill is what made raiding so rewarding in the past? There was less content but we were so much more to occupy ourselves with attempting to progress and get to new places beating something and feeling such a great sense of accomplishment. I'm not saying we have to lose content, we can have more things to do but why take away such a great feeling of making progress? In part its even diminishing the effect of a guild to even really bother forming up, weakening the community.
When will it be realized by being spoiled brats and having everything given to us that its actually ruining our sense of enjoyment?
Funny that it's about a war in the warcraft universe, but everytime I encounter a WOW player varying from 8y-80y old, either on the internet or IRL, the term "raiding" always comes up within 30 seconds.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Man some of the replies so far make me LOL. All the players with the views that people are playing the game just to get the gear & telling anyone else that they are wrong if they don't have that view.
So players get all the best gear in the game? Then what? Exactly, nothing. Players with the mentality of wanting the loot a.s.a.p are completely missing the point of these games. When you're in the raid trying to kill a boss to get the loot, that IS the game. The loot is just a potential bonus for playing the game!
Anyone who says "I'm sick of killing this raid boss for 10 weeks and never getting the loot from it cause of RNG" is completely missing the point of the game. The game is, once again, playing the raid. If you arn't having any fun because of that, then perhaps you should just /quit whatever game it is you are playing.
Some people will say the fun for them in the game is getting the loot & getting it fast. Well, while they are clearly entitled to their opinion on the matter, I'm entitled to mine, & my opinion is that those players are playing the game wrong.
I suspect a lot of players will have a lot - as in hundreds or eben thousands - of less runes of fate before they start to raid. These are pretty easy to obtain - not just from dailies; you can even get them from pet battles. Whilst obtaining lesser runes they will be doing quests and at some point scenarios and at some point dungeons getting "better gear" - up to iLvl 450 say. And gaining valor points with which they can purchase better gear. So when they come to use LFR having the Lesser Runes of Fate should not be an issue. Only being able to get 3 a week - possibly a bigger gripe.
At some point they will have the option to use LFR - and I see this as doing exactly what Blizzard set out to achieve. Provide "casuals" with an ability to find and participate in "high end" raids.
And anything that allows players to "have another chance" at getting a drop has to be good.
Comments
I agree with a currency idea from the LFR. I lost alot of my will to play because I played the LFR every week on my main and have yet to get trinkets. I never rep grinded for them, just don't care enough. My wife has played for maybe 5 months, and has yet to get enough gear to move past mogushan vaults. Nothing drops for her, and she don't care to play anymore either. I really can't blame her.
As for the LFR not being for casuals, thats a crock, I can log in, play the raids and log out once a week with almost 0 investment in the rest of the game. It is perfect for that. There will always be people who are not cut out for it. I played with a mage that was doing 50% the damage the tank was doing, and that person got kicked. Even though we were killing stuff fine. In all cooperative ventures, a certain level of competence is expected. I have yet to see someone beating the tanks in dps and getting kicked. Healers and Tanks require more skill and have more responsibility, but at the same time the bar is lower than a regular raid. I see tanks getting kicked the most but it is normally a person in dps gear wanting a quick queue.
My Thoughts on Content Locust
If you have a currency you ensure it has to be repeated X number of times without creating the possibility of having people who get geared in 1 run (this literally happened to my mage in dragon soul, I got my 4 set bonus and weapon my first run) or people who raid weekly for almost half a year and get nothing (see my post about my wife) It takes the rush of getting loot away, but you can't have it all. Maybe a roll for random amounts of currency. So you may get enough to easily buy a peice of gear from one fight, or 10% of that amount or something in between.
My Thoughts on Content Locust
Apparently you haven't run an LFR since Cataclysm. All loot is individual now, you don't roll against the other people in your raid. You either get loot from the boss or you don't. And no one else in the raid can see if you got an item unless you decide to link it in raid chat.
MMO's are about gear grind (see GW2, WoW is no exception) , you make it to easy and people leave, this will not change, blizzard learned that lesson awhile back. Take the grind out, you got no game.
Till the actual design is changed in MMO's to something new that takes this grind aspect away, this is what every MMO will be doomed to play.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
WoW's endgame has been like that since launch. Raiding endgames are always like that. For that matter, endgames are nearly always like that.
The basic problem is that you experience the content once, and if that's all that the content is about, then you go maybe once or twice and then never go back. That would let players breeze through endgames in a week, rather than making them stay for months and keep paying a subscription fee. That defeats the entire point of an endgame. Letting players finish the endgame too fast would effectively convert it to real content and leave the game with no endgame at all. From a consumer perspective, I'd be all in favor of that, but developers can't do that for financial reasons.
Some people like playing a game for fun, and some people like playing a game for gear that doesn't exist outside of the game. Guild Wars 2 was created for the former and World of Warcraft for the latter. And Guild Wars 2 is hardly a failure.
If you're going to play a game for the gear, then you can't complain that you get gear too slowly or erratically, which is the underlying complaint of any RNG system. A game that you play for gear is supposed to mete out gear slowly; that's the whole point of the game.
It is good to hear that WoW finally did something about the ninja looting problem that had plagued it since launch, however.
Well, it looks like you got your wish. Starting tomorrow after the maintenance, Mogu Runes of Fate will only cost 50 lesser charms, down from 90.
Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8704260381
personally my ideal outcome would be to make raids that are difficult enough that a randomly assembled group of players should not be able to complete the raid.
i see that unfair loot practices (Example, ninja-looting) is one of the root causes of Bliz changing the game's systems to accomodate raids that are formed like this. a lot of this comes from the fact that people who meet on "Lfr" dont have any investment in one another, the way that folks in a guild should have by virtue of working together day in day out for a matter of months and years.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Are you serious??? So some people are using it to gear up their raid force, and you just want to shut down the whole thing???? Dude, what? What is your really motivating you to say this?
The only problem people have with the system, imho, is the randomness of it all. On my monk and warlock for instance, I would get 3 pieces minimum a week from LFR. While my fellow guildmates and friends doing the exact same LFR wouldn't get a single drop the entire week. My Hunter went a whole month with only getting 2 drops the entire month, and that's with full bonus rolls, and 1 guild raid on normal (4 bosses).
I think there should be a failsafe system to back it up. You should have an increased drop rate for every boss you didn't get a drop from, which resets when you get a drop. Make it like 15% for every boss roll that you didn't get a drop. If you kill a boss, and doesn't drop, if you use your bonus roll you'll get 30% chance, if it doesn't drop, the next boss gives 45% chance, if no drop, bonus roll gives 60% chance, etc. Until you get a loot roll.
Lol @ GW2 failed...
Just a point I'd like to make, in no shape or form did Guild Wars 2 fail. The population is very high in fact and I've had to queue up just to join the regular server. It doesn't mean that just because every game doesn't have WoW's population numbers that they have somehow failed. You can have your opinion that GW2 isn't good or whatever, but in no way or shape can you say it "failed." Because it simply didn't.
Smile
I find these posts just so hilarious.... it's actually not even funny.
You still have to clear the same RAID. Just that people don't have to become eachothers worst enemies everytime and fight over loot after each RAID!
When I was still playing WoW back in the Vanilla days.... RAID guilds had the shortest lifespan of any guild.... all due to bitching and fighting over loot. You don't want to know the language, rage and drama that went on in guild chats day after day after day. lol.
If people enjoy that kind of stuff and get a kick out of it, then they have some serious mental and social issues.
This loot system they just implemented is how it should have always been. Now people can just do RAIDs, enjoy them, without having to fight over loot each time.
Win Win to me!
It's just superficial. The end result will be the same.
LOTRO for example has marks system for their dungeons and RAIDs and you don't want to know how many marks you need to collect to buy even a single piece of topgear!
Trust me, such a system is even worse than RNG. It would turn RAIDing into a total mindless mark grind. Just to buy gear.
At least with an RNG system you still have some excitement, as you never know what you'll get. That is a hell lot more fun, then getting a guaranteed mark and knowing you need to do it another couple hundred times to be able to buy a complete set of gear.
RAIDing would just become a calculated grind. Blehh.
I haven't played with the new system. It seems ok for casual raids to me. What they'd change though should be this, in my opinion: each time a player gets nothing, their chance to get something the next time is increased.
Just to use some random numbers (as said, I haven't played WoW for a while):
Basic chance to get an item after a boss fight: 25%
If you don't get something, the next fight, it's increased to 40%. Then 55%, 70%, 85%, 100%.
So you are very lucky to get two items in a row, but you are also guaranteed a drop after getting nothing for five fights.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Who said anything about only doing it once? I'd be perfectly happy to wait several weeks if I knew I'd then have enough to buy item X. If you think I'm into the mentality of the average WoW player nowadays, you're dead wrong.
Right now, some people get geared very quickly, while others get jack shit for doing the exact same (or even doing much more). A friend of mine got from ilevel 470 to ilevel 495 or so in one day. She first got a streak of luck in the Heart of Fear / Terrace raids, then again in the new ToT LFR. That same process took me like 2 months.
Give control to the players, and at the same time the devs can also control how many times they want players to run it before they're fully geared for that tier. Those players who are truly hardcore about getting shit could still gather up all the elder charms by doing dailies and get a lot more currency.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
very true
Funny that it's about a war in the warcraft universe, but everytime I encounter a WOW player varying from 8y-80y old, either on the internet or IRL, the term "raiding" always comes up within 30 seconds.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Looking For Raid.
Man some of the replies so far make me LOL. All the players with the views that people are playing the game just to get the gear & telling anyone else that they are wrong if they don't have that view.
So players get all the best gear in the game? Then what? Exactly, nothing. Players with the mentality of wanting the loot a.s.a.p are completely missing the point of these games. When you're in the raid trying to kill a boss to get the loot, that IS the game. The loot is just a potential bonus for playing the game!
Anyone who says "I'm sick of killing this raid boss for 10 weeks and never getting the loot from it cause of RNG" is completely missing the point of the game. The game is, once again, playing the raid. If you arn't having any fun because of that, then perhaps you should just /quit whatever game it is you are playing.
Some people will say the fun for them in the game is getting the loot & getting it fast. Well, while they are clearly entitled to their opinion on the matter, I'm entitled to mine, & my opinion is that those players are playing the game wrong.
I suspect a lot of players will have a lot - as in hundreds or eben thousands - of less runes of fate before they start to raid. These are pretty easy to obtain - not just from dailies; you can even get them from pet battles. Whilst obtaining lesser runes they will be doing quests and at some point scenarios and at some point dungeons getting "better gear" - up to iLvl 450 say. And gaining valor points with which they can purchase better gear. So when they come to use LFR having the Lesser Runes of Fate should not be an issue. Only being able to get 3 a week - possibly a bigger gripe.
At some point they will have the option to use LFR - and I see this as doing exactly what Blizzard set out to achieve. Provide "casuals" with an ability to find and participate in "high end" raids.
And anything that allows players to "have another chance" at getting a drop has to be good.