Originally posted by ShakyMo The thing with swg it had huge empty areas to build houses.
The trouble with tamriel, we already know how 4 of the provinces look. It would kinda ruin the world if say half the people on the server decided to build their houses in whiterun.
So how do you do housing, well I wouldn't want instanced housing like eq2 as well its just pointless.
You could use a Ao style apartment block thing but that wouldn't fit the setting.
What I think they will do if they ever do housing is probably daoc style with a separate non instanced zone for housing, where you can build your villages next to your guild mates, have stores etc.. but that still has the problem of where would you put it as the world of tamriel is already mapped.
We're talking about how we would make the game, not how it is being given to us by Zenimax. Tamriel is huge, easily big enough if the game had been designed properly. Forget Skyrim, look at TES II Daggerfall. That was a huge game world which would easily suppport player housing.
This is how I would do a TES MMO, we're not talking about the game that's in production. If you look at the thread title, this is all hypothetical. We're not restricted to using the world Zenimax is offering us. This is basically all just bullshit about how we would have made the game if it were up to us.
Lets not forget that in the lore the size of Skyrim is about the size of Great Britain. Fairly certain more then a few million people live there
My TESO would have a traditional limit of about 2000 per server. This is plenty of space in all of Tamriel for building houses.
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk Originally posted by baphametOriginally posted by jmcdermottukOriginally posted by baphametSnip
i am not saying i like the current way raids are handled with a raid limit, since i refuse to raid anymore, but i do see why games do it.you honestly think its better to be allowed to zerg bosses down? you then realize that bosses must be balanced for huge 80 man zergs then? or do you think it should be trivial no matter what boss you fight if you bring enough people?what that does is alienate all the smaller guilds, when i say smaller guilds i am talking about guilds that are not really that small but not the biggest on the server to be able to get 80-100 people together at the same time to kill a boss.i understand what you are saying about needing only certain classes and all that but its a necessary evil IMO to be able to balance the content.ive raided both ways (EQ1 and vanilla wow) and i think the balanced 40/25 man style is better to balance for that exact number of people instead of a gigantic force only.its also more challenging (unless you purposely bring less people like you mentioned) and it allows more guilds to be able to do the content.but hey, i wont do it anymore either way so its whatever.I didn't suggest balancing bosses for an 80 man zerg. Balance them for a 40 man raid, or 25 I don't really care. What I'm saying is that if you can't beat that boss with 40, then take 50, or 60.Yeah I know some people call this a zerg. I call it allowing players access to content they have paid for. I'm saying give the players the choice to go and try to beat this boss wearing their trashy green items if they want. I'm saying why do we need to leave this guy out of the raid because we're full? Let's take him along anyway even if it means there's 41 of us. I'm saying to the developers, stop placing restrictions on us! Let us make that choice. No more "you can't go here because you need to be "x" level and you need 25 men to do this and your gear needs to be level. Screw that! I'm going now and I'm taking everyone I can find. I'm gonna have a big, mad, furious, chaotic, insane battle with fireballs and magic missiles and nuclear explosions and lighting bolts. YEAH! How is that not fun? And the elitists can still impress us all by doing the same fight with 15, or 12 or 10 and people all over the game will be amazed and bow down in worship (well maybe not).This is going to be a subscription based game most likely. I'll be paying the same monthly fee as everyone else. Nobody is going to tell me I can't go and fight some boss for some arbitrary reason, be it level or gear or because there's too may already. Bullshit. That's my feelings anyway but it's all hypothetical.no, i think i touched on what you were saying exactly. you are saying that if you cant beat a boss with 40 people, bring more to make it more trivial.like i said, i totally understand where you are coming from by allowing everyone in the guild to attend the raid without limitations or needing certain classes to fill a specific role.but if you don't balance the content for that, it becomes trivial for the larger zergs or its ballanced only for large zergs.that is why in games like EQ, only the best guilds could raid certain content.do you not see the logic in terms of balancing the content for more people to enjoy while still making it challenging for everyone?it definitely has its pros and cons but i see why they do it for sure.I see what you're saying and I understand you viewpoint. I just don't agree with it.
You see it as making content trivial because it can be zerged. I see it as making the content available to people who may not otherwsie get a chance to try that content, due to level, gear, numbers, or even skill, whatever.
I see nothing wrong at all with a 40 man boss being beaten by 45 people if that's what it takes. I see nothing wrong with a guild taking 60 to beat him if they have to. Yeah it's a zerg. But seriously, why should you care? If your guild can do it with 40, well then,, well done you. If you can do it with 30, again, well done, I'm impressed.
But if you're in a guild that keeps wiping when you take 40 people along, fuck it, get another group in to help. What is the problem with that? Why should you care if another guild takes 100 people to a boss fight? It makes no difference at all to what you do in the game. Except maybe prove you're a better player in a better guild because you did it with 30.
My way just makes more sense to me. It worked for the Russians at Stalingard. It worked for Xerxes at Thermopylae, eventually.
Different strokes I guess. I do respect your opinion and I understand what you're saying but I just can't agree with it.
from a developers point of view, it doesn't make much sense to do that because that presents no challenge (if you don't balance the content for those massive zergs) and it allows for large guilds to blow through your content even faster than they already are.
in EQ it worked because it was balanced for the large zergs, you had to bring a lot of people or you just couldn't do it.
like i said,for that reason only the top end guilds got to raid the top end content.
that is a serious issue if you want a large player base to play your game and i understand why they do it.
Make a kickstarter campaign, that seems to work for delusional people that have nothing more than an idea for a game
I wonder if someone could make a kickstarter campaign collecting 2-3 million dollars to give to Zenimax to make a few alterations on ESO and rerelease it as a seperate version.
Originally posted by Purutzil Then you would of realized how insanely difficult your work would be to be pulled off in an MMO setting and no where remotely near as easy and would of stopped production and worked on the TESO that exists today due to limitations of both the average consumer's computer and network limitations among other things.
SWG did it in many ways it was like this and it was a success before they decided to revamp the game into WoW clone. So yes it is very possible. And SWG had high PC spec requirements too for its time.
So this is basically what you said in one sentence.
I would make Skryim, but online with some slight modifications.
Not tying to dis, everything you said sounds great, and I think we all were hoping for Skyrim online, but we wont be getting that.
We just have to accept ESO for what is it, and get over it.
I am curious, the people who say they want Skyrim but online with slight modifications, what would happen when hardcore players roll through all the material in a couple weeks and are at max level? In Skyrim RPG you either reroll or go play something else. But that isnt a good business model for a MMORPG. As SWTOR saw, you need to have an endgame even if your levelling game is very good because some (many?) people will roll through that material quickly, and even a slow player will be through it in several months. Then what?
You need to have an endgame model for a MMORPG, which makes it VERY different from Skyrim or any RPG. You can NOT make Skyrim online and have it be successful because you cant begin to create content as fast as people level through it, because people will level through it 100 times faster than your team can create it. So when we say Skyrim online as a MMORPG, what we really mean is Skyrim online plus some type of endgame that isnt in Skyrim. That means the WoW model of raiding for the best gear, or a PvP model like DAoC that means PvPing for abilities/gear, or something else (which few if any MMORPGs have found). They seem to have chosen the second approach. People blame them for taking this approach and 'changing' Skyrim, but to be fair, they had no choice: they HAD to change Skyrim if they wanted to make any money. The only question was HOW do they change it. IMO they took the best possible approach because IMO its a losing strategy to try to out-WoW WoW. However IMO there is plenty of room in the market for a good game with RvR PvP as an endgame.
Originally posted by Purutzil Then you would of realized how insanely difficult your work would be to be pulled off in an MMO setting and no where remotely near as easy and would of stopped production and worked on the TESO that exists today due to limitations of both the average consumer's computer and network limitations among other things.
SWG did it in many ways it was like this and it was a success before they decided to revamp the game into WoW clone. So yes it is very possible. And SWG had high PC spec requirements too for its time.
SWG was not nearly as successful as they had hoped, which is why they changed it. Admittedly changing it was a mistake in hindsight because they lost more players than they added, but to be fair, it wasnt like the game was a huge success before the change. They didnt make a star wars game, they made a sims in space game, and while a group of players really liked that game, it didnt have the market appeal they had wanted or hoped. A lot of people had tried and quit SWG long before the change, a lot of the player made cities were ghost towns. People who really like games tend to idealize the game in hindsight and blame its failure on some designer mistake, when in reality the causes were more numerous and complicated than that (eg, SWG, DAoC, etc).
Originally posted by Purutzil Then you would of realized how insanely difficult your work would be to be pulled off in an MMO setting and no where remotely near as easy and would of stopped production and worked on the TESO that exists today due to limitations of both the average consumer's computer and network limitations among other things.
SWG did it in many ways it was like this and it was a success before they decided to revamp the game into WoW clone. So yes it is very possible. And SWG had high PC spec requirements too for its time.
SWG was not nearly as successful as they had hoped, which is why they changed it. Admittedly changing it was a mistake in hindsight because they lost more players than they added, but to be fair, it wasnt like the game was a huge success before the change. They didnt make a star wars game, they made a sims in space game, and while a group of players really liked that game, it didnt have the market appeal they had wanted or hoped. A lot of people had tried and quit SWG long before the change, a lot of the player made cities were ghost towns. People who really like games tend to idealize the game in hindsight and blame its failure on some designer mistake, when in reality the causes were more numerous and complicated than that (eg, SWG, DAoC, etc).
Theres also Ultima Online which is still alive today...
Glad its the game it is, not the game you would have dsigned. Typical MMOrpg.com forum hate. I just hope the devs ignore most of this crap. FYI devs, lots of us here love what you are doing, keep going!!!!
Originally posted by tkreep How about this why not everyone just try Skyrim online and see how it works in a online world. Thanks to modders you can...
Might want to try that yourself before recommending it because it doesnt work.
its in alpha being made by modders for free...at least they have built a whole new city in the game for online players. of course its not going to be perfect.
Originally posted by tkreep Originally posted by NitthOriginally posted by tkreepHow about this why not everyone just try Skyrim online and see how it works in a online world. Thanks to modders you can...http://forums.skyrim-online.com/showthread.php?tid=177
Might want to try that yourself before recommending it because it doesnt work.its in alpha being made by modders for free...at least they have built a whole new city in the game for online players. of course its not going to be perfect.
How can something that is receiving donations be considered 'working for free'
There is no item, character, quest, or npc syncing. and the lag if you see another player is horrendous.
end of my story: not a good indicator for a 'Skyrim online'
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Comments
Lets not forget that in the lore the size of Skyrim is about the size of Great Britain. Fairly certain more then a few million people live there
My TESO would have a traditional limit of about 2000 per server. This is plenty of space in all of Tamriel for building houses.
SUP
I didn't suggest balancing bosses for an 80 man zerg. Balance them for a 40 man raid, or 25 I don't really care. What I'm saying is that if you can't beat that boss with 40, then take 50, or 60. Yeah I know some people call this a zerg. I call it allowing players access to content they have paid for. I'm saying give the players the choice to go and try to beat this boss wearing their trashy green items if they want. I'm saying why do we need to leave this guy out of the raid because we're full? Let's take him along anyway even if it means there's 41 of us. I'm saying to the developers, stop placing restrictions on us! Let us make that choice. No more "you can't go here because you need to be "x" level and you need 25 men to do this and your gear needs to be level. Screw that! I'm going now and I'm taking everyone I can find. I'm gonna have a big, mad, furious, chaotic, insane battle with fireballs and magic missiles and nuclear explosions and lighting bolts. YEAH! How is that not fun? And the elitists can still impress us all by doing the same fight with 15, or 12 or 10 and people all over the game will be amazed and bow down in worship (well maybe not). This is going to be a subscription based game most likely. I'll be paying the same monthly fee as everyone else. Nobody is going to tell me I can't go and fight some boss for some arbitrary reason, be it level or gear or because there's too may already. Bullshit. That's my feelings anyway but it's all hypothetical.
no, i think i touched on what you were saying exactly. you are saying that if you cant beat a boss with 40 people, bring more to make it more trivial. like i said, i totally understand where you are coming from by allowing everyone in the guild to attend the raid without limitations or needing certain classes to fill a specific role. but if you don't balance the content for that, it becomes trivial for the larger zergs or its ballanced only for large zergs. that is why in games like EQ, only the best guilds could raid certain content. do you not see the logic in terms of balancing the content for more people to enjoy while still making it challenging for everyone? it definitely has its pros and cons but i see why they do it for sure.
I see what you're saying and I understand you viewpoint. I just don't agree with it.
You see it as making content trivial because it can be zerged. I see it as making the content available to people who may not otherwsie get a chance to try that content, due to level, gear, numbers, or even skill, whatever.
I see nothing wrong at all with a 40 man boss being beaten by 45 people if that's what it takes. I see nothing wrong with a guild taking 60 to beat him if they have to. Yeah it's a zerg. But seriously, why should you care? If your guild can do it with 40, well then,, well done you. If you can do it with 30, again, well done, I'm impressed.
But if you're in a guild that keeps wiping when you take 40 people along, fuck it, get another group in to help. What is the problem with that? Why should you care if another guild takes 100 people to a boss fight? It makes no difference at all to what you do in the game. Except maybe prove you're a better player in a better guild because you did it with 30.
My way just makes more sense to me. It worked for the Russians at Stalingard. It worked for Xerxes at Thermopylae, eventually.
Different strokes I guess. I do respect your opinion and I understand what you're saying but I just can't agree with it.
from a developers point of view, it doesn't make much sense to do that because that presents no challenge (if you don't balance the content for those massive zergs) and it allows for large guilds to blow through your content even faster than they already are.
in EQ it worked because it was balanced for the large zergs, you had to bring a lot of people or you just couldn't do it.
like i said,for that reason only the top end guilds got to raid the top end content.
that is a serious issue if you want a large player base to play your game and i understand why they do it.
that is all i am saying.
I wonder if someone could make a kickstarter campaign collecting 2-3 million dollars to give to Zenimax to make a few alterations on ESO and rerelease it as a seperate version.
SWG did it in many ways it was like this and it was a success before they decided to revamp the game into WoW clone. So yes it is very possible. And SWG had high PC spec requirements too for its time.
So this is basically what you said in one sentence.
I would make Skryim, but online with some slight modifications.
Not tying to dis, everything you said sounds great, and I think we all were hoping for Skyrim online, but we wont be getting that.
We just have to accept ESO for what is it, and get over it.
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
www.CeaselessGuild.com
I am curious, the people who say they want Skyrim but online with slight modifications, what would happen when hardcore players roll through all the material in a couple weeks and are at max level? In Skyrim RPG you either reroll or go play something else. But that isnt a good business model for a MMORPG. As SWTOR saw, you need to have an endgame even if your levelling game is very good because some (many?) people will roll through that material quickly, and even a slow player will be through it in several months. Then what?
You need to have an endgame model for a MMORPG, which makes it VERY different from Skyrim or any RPG. You can NOT make Skyrim online and have it be successful because you cant begin to create content as fast as people level through it, because people will level through it 100 times faster than your team can create it. So when we say Skyrim online as a MMORPG, what we really mean is Skyrim online plus some type of endgame that isnt in Skyrim. That means the WoW model of raiding for the best gear, or a PvP model like DAoC that means PvPing for abilities/gear, or something else (which few if any MMORPGs have found). They seem to have chosen the second approach. People blame them for taking this approach and 'changing' Skyrim, but to be fair, they had no choice: they HAD to change Skyrim if they wanted to make any money. The only question was HOW do they change it. IMO they took the best possible approach because IMO its a losing strategy to try to out-WoW WoW. However IMO there is plenty of room in the market for a good game with RvR PvP as an endgame.
Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC
SWG was not nearly as successful as they had hoped, which is why they changed it. Admittedly changing it was a mistake in hindsight because they lost more players than they added, but to be fair, it wasnt like the game was a huge success before the change. They didnt make a star wars game, they made a sims in space game, and while a group of players really liked that game, it didnt have the market appeal they had wanted or hoped. A lot of people had tried and quit SWG long before the change, a lot of the player made cities were ghost towns. People who really like games tend to idealize the game in hindsight and blame its failure on some designer mistake, when in reality the causes were more numerous and complicated than that (eg, SWG, DAoC, etc).
Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC
Theres also Ultima Online which is still alive today...
How about this why not everyone just try Skyrim online and see how it works in a online world. Thanks to modders you can...
http://forums.skyrim-online.com/showthread.php?tid=177
Might want to try that yourself before recommending it because it doesnt work.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
its in alpha being made by modders for free...at least they have built a whole new city in the game for online players. of course its not going to be perfect.
its in alpha being made by modders for free...at least they have built a whole new city in the game for online players. of course its not going to be perfect.
How can something that is receiving donations be considered 'working for free'
There is no item, character, quest, or npc syncing. and the lag if you see another player is horrendous.
end of my story: not a good indicator for a 'Skyrim online'
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development