Fast travel can artificially inflate the difficulty of capturing points, but removing it entirely is not the option. Providing a means of quick transportation can add another layer of depth to the planning of a siege, assuming you can negate the benefit it provides.
Knocking out fast travel points in a region, or capturing them for your own use, is a good indicator that something is going down, which in turn will bring more players to the battle.
I'd like to see CU avoid scenarios where you're stuck running for 20 minutes in completely uncontested territory. That's not making the game easy, it's just removing non-value added tedium. At the same time, I absolutely love that death is going to sting in this game, and so there needs to be a certain delay before you can rush back to the fight. Most games take fast travel way too far, IMO.
Just thinking aloud, maybe a road system between certain keeps, allowing for expedited (whether portals/horses/armies of gnomes carrying you, I'll leave that to CSE) travel between those keeps when you're connected. But other keeps shouldn't be connected to necessarily any road (or at least any form of expedited travel), and you can't just pop right into a keep that is being attacked no matter what kind of keep it is. J
So glad MJ sticks to his guns on with the principles..
Looks like casual carebears are already trying to get in here and complain about fast travel.
Calling me carebear is pretty stupid... I like hardcore pvp, full loot, or at least some loot off player kills, very limited safe zones, and pvp should absolutely be skill based, not gear based. What honestly do you envision for no fast travel? Holding down W for 15 minutes getting from point A to Point B? Thats fun to you? Is it fun sitting there yawning waiting for the boat to come in, then sitting on the boat waiting for it to move? We do that in real life with the damn bus and the train.
Honestly I'd like to hear, what do you guys opposed to fast travel imagine it will be without any, or extemely limited. Say I'm on the west side of the continent and want to get to the east side, whats involved? Can we have fast travel for that? If a location 20 minutes away by mount/foot assuming a huge world, do you really want to travel that long? Theres no garentee your going to get in a fight every time.
New ideas, like the crafting system, dedicated crafters, focusing completely on pvp, no auction house (hate people who buy it out and put everything back up at insane prices) are great. But we have had games with unbalanced races or no/little fast travel and they died, or they had to change it later on. Personally I'm saying I like a lot of aspects of the game but some seem to be repeated mistakes.
There is a great feature in DAoC, that will probably also be in CU, named autorun. Once it is activated you can let go of W and still keep going, and stop when you hit W again or S but not when turning.
Something here to keep in mind also, the Time To Kill will be quite long, so it means that you won't travel 20 min to fight 10 sec.
Besides, you are not doing nothing while you are traveling, you have to look constantly around you if any enemy is coming, watch out for ambushes, monitor your realm map to see if there is a place to help defend/attack, the chat will also provide useful informations on enemy movements from our spies, and there is all the pressure of wondering if you'll make it in time or not, while still having to be careful about any potential trap left there by an enemy that could slow you down and possibly reveal your presence with damage log.
Finally, there is the tactical side. What's best than knowing an important part of the strategy is left to your group, than if you screw up the whole army is going to get into trouble, knowing than not only your victory is at stake but the one of all the other groups that count on you to take that keep/tower or to hold it long enough to let them achieve their own task?
That's what's RvR is about, you don't only need to win for your personal gain, but for the whole realm if you want to be able to do anything significant.
Some people also want to be the one leading all those players. Personally i don't, and lots of people feel that way, if i trust what's happening on hib/ywain where nobody wants to lead a group and so there are mostly soloers, but i would really like to be able to take part in establishing the strategy.
1) Reliance on stamina buffers...(I know buff botting was covered, but not this specific area.) Shamans etc who would give your group quick stamina recovery. If your stamina buffer wasn't on, you were pretty much screwed. If you played anyway, you were at a disadvantage. Stamina buffers often became prima donnas, knowing they were so highly sought after they could pretty much act as they wanted.
I don't know what your resource for physical damage is going to be, but I really hope its like WoW's rage system or a fast energy regen... WoW kept me for so long, not caring about the lore, hating the cartoony graphics, disliking much of the kiddy community etc simply because to me, the Warrior was so amazing to play, vs a DAoC/Warhammer Warrior. DAoC's world pvp was fantastic, but as a single class, WoW's classes were much more fun, as they werent so hugely group reliant and had had more fun abilities.
2) Make races cosmetic only. (for each side that is, difference classes on each side is interesting) While this doesnt make real world sense, it needs to be this way for a game. While I always play male characters, a huge portion of males like playing female, I dont think they would like it if they had lower strength then a male. (Dont want to get sexist here... but come on now..) Looking a certain way is important to people. in DAoC, you had to be a Troll if you wanted 100 strength. Stregth was great for melee. I love melee characters, but I dont want to be a fat, ugly, annoying sounds Troll. I wanted to be human so I took the -30 strength hit to do it.
Same problem in Warhammer. The character with the with the mechanic I liked the best was the Dwarf Warrior with the Grudge mechanic.... but then I HAD to be a dwarf. Yes, on one hand it was Dwarf lore, but on the other hand, humans, who have killed more of themselves then any of us can imagine, didn't have a pure warrior class, on either side of Warhammer. Felt restrictive and odd to me.
A lot of people won't like this, I personally find gnome warriors or 120 lb females being as strong as a 220 lb buffed out males a bit hard to swallow but you just need to get over it just like we get over all the other fantasy aspects of these games... I really think this is a big one, CU cant be as restrictive with the class/race thing.
3) Needs to be easy to get around. I know DAoC worked on this as time went on, TBH I cant remember Warhammers quick travel system. There needs to be an easy quick travel system out of the gate, or a lot of people will leave. Again, this is something certain people will oppose "it makes the world feel smaller, etc" but again I feel its needed to appease the majority. Exploring is cool at first, but after a while long travel times just get old. Its another small fix thats a big deal to todays mmo crowd.
1) Reliance on a single class/subclass should not be a must, however they should definitely provide a benefit that would otherwise be lacking. Artificially decreasing the amount of depth a game has simply to make everyone feel special enough is something that caters to the current trend of major MMOs that CSE is trying to avoid with CU.
2) Since it has already been stated that both race and to some extent sex will matter I will point out why I agree with making it that way. Because it makes your choices during character creation matter, because it means you can't get everything you want. There must be some sort of tradeoff for the decisions you make otherwise the decision is meaningless. Blizzard for example broke their own established lore multiple times to cater to the masses and pretty much blurred the lines between horde and alliance to a point where even your choice of faction no longer mattered. And their classes being fun is a very subjective thing which I do not actually agree with. I would actually say they were far less fun than they could have been and incredibly easy to become bored with rather quickly given that they had no real depth. Also, WAR did have warriors for humans, since you mentioned grudge I assume you meant Ironbreaker which was a tank type career. Knight of the blazing sun was the choice for empire and chosen was the choice for chaos. Since they were mirrored classes they were slightly different but still brought the same things to the table. If you are basing the notion of a pure tank on what you experienced in WoW then this part of the conversation is pretty much over.
3) Definitely not a fan of. Reason: Pretty much whats been said about niche/zerging/world size/etc.
First of all, I want to say I am very excited about CU, I've backed it and hope it does well. However, there were some some aspects of DAoC and Warhammer that myself and many others didnt like, that I hope arent repeated. I have seen a bunch of the vidoes discussing gameplay, but not every single one, so if I mention one that was covered, I'm sorry.
1) Reliance on stamina buffers...(I know buff botting was covered, but not this specific area.) Shamans etc who would give your group quick stamina recovery. If your stamina buffer wasn't on, you were pretty much screwed. If you played anyway, you were at a disadvantage. Stamina buffers often became prima donnas, knowing they were so highly sought after they could pretty much act as they wanted.
I don't know what your resource for physical damage is going to be, but I really hope its like WoW's rage system or a fast energy regen... WoW kept me for so long, not caring about the lore, hating the cartoony graphics, disliking much of the kiddy community etc simply because to me, the Warrior was so amazing to play, vs a DAoC/Warhammer Warrior. DAoC's world pvp was fantastic, but as a single class, WoW's classes were much more fun, as they werent so hugely group reliant and had had more fun abilities.
Agreed. Not sure how quickly stamina should regen in CU, but frankly there shouldn't be classes whose sole purpose is to buff others. I remember fooling around with a mentalist at some point. I pretty much just had to give everyone crack and toss around the occasional heal. Meh.
2) Make races cosmetic only. (for each side that is, difference classes on each side is interesting) While this doesnt make real world sense, it needs to be this way for a game. While I always play male characters, a huge portion of males like playing female, I dont think they would like it if they had lower strength then a male. (Dont want to get sexist here... but come on now..) Looking a certain way is important to people. in DAoC, you had to be a Troll if you wanted 100 strength. Stregth was great for melee. I love melee characters, but I dont want to be a fat, ugly, annoying sounds Troll. I wanted to be human so I took the -30 strength hit to do it.
Same problem in Warhammer. The character with the with the mechanic I liked the best was the Dwarf Warrior with the Grudge mechanic.... but then I HAD to be a dwarf. Yes, on one hand it was Dwarf lore, but on the other hand, humans, who have killed more of themselves then any of us can imagine, didn't have a pure warrior class, on either side of Warhammer. Felt restrictive and odd to me.
A lot of people won't like this, I personally find gnome warriors or 120 lb females being as strong as a 220 lb buffed out males a bit hard to swallow but you just need to get over it just like we get over all the other fantasy aspects of these games... I really think this is a big one, CU cant be as restrictive with the class/race thing.
Disagree entirely. Races should be balanced, not identical.
3) Needs to be easy to get around. I know DAoC worked on this as time went on, TBH I cant remember Warhammers quick travel system. There needs to be an easy quick travel system out of the gate, or a lot of people will leave. Again, this is something certain people will oppose "it makes the world feel smaller, etc" but again I feel its needed to appease the majority. Exploring is cool at first, but after a while long travel times just get old. Its another small fix thats a big deal to todays mmo crowd.
Disagree once again. Too much fast travel would severely damage an RvR system.
Knight of the blazing sun and chosen were not warriors. They were support that could melee, chosen had to twist buffs and auras, knights of the blazing sun came out months after the game was released. A warrior relies purely on melee/close range abilities and is a front line fighter. WoW's Warrior, DAoC's Armsman, SWTOR Guardian/Juggernaught.
If sex is going to matter, are female characters going to get a major strength penalty? Before we get to the wrong place, yes there are plenty of women who can beat the crap out of many men, but shes going to lose to the strongest man... are women just going to make poor strength based melee chracters? For that matter, using a longbow takes increadable strength. Can a human ever be a tank, or only the largest races? Are you going to have to mkae an elf for a strong magic class? Choice should matter in a lot of aspects(like assigning your own stat points) but race can get messy. I remember in WoW when only Dwarfs had fear ward, so a less skilled dwarf priest would be taken over an elf/human priest in Karazan because of the undead dragon that could fear. It was a bad idea, and was changed.
As for what WoW did in blurring the line, it was needed, or they would have to rebalance the game from the ground up. I played since beta, and the differences between a paladin and shaman were just too big. Windfury was too amazing for dps, and the paladins survivability was just too much over the shamans. I support not wanting full mirror images, but if you have something amazing on one side, its going to cause problems... MJ even mentioned it, he "hopes" it wont cause too much of a problem but if things are too different, it will. Its going to be a very difficult balancing act.
Knight of the blazing sun and chosen were not warriors. They were support that could melee, chosen had to twist buffs and auras, knights of the blazing sun came out months after the game was released. A warrior relies purely on melee/close range abilities and is a front line fighter. WoW's Warrior, DAoC's Armsman, SWTOR Guardian/Juggernaught.
If sex is going to matter, are female characters going to get a major strength penalty? Before we get to the wrong place, yes there are plenty of women who can beat the crap out of many men, but shes going to lose to the strongest man... are women just going to make poor strength based melee chracters? For that matter, using a longbow takes increadable strength. Can a human ever be a tank, or only the largest races? Are you going to have to mkae an elf for a strong magic class? Choice should matter in a lot of aspects(like assigning your own stat points) but race can get messy. I remember in WoW when only Dwarfs had fear ward, so a less skilled dwarf priest would be taken over an elf/human priest in Karazan because of the undead dragon that could fear. It was a bad idea, and was changed.
As for what WoW did in blurring the line, it was needed, or they would have to rebalance the game from the ground up. I played since beta, and the differences between a paladin and shaman were just too big. Windfury was too amazing for dps, and the paladins survivability was just too much over the shamans. I support not wanting full mirror images, but if you have something amazing on one side, its going to cause problems... MJ even mentioned it, he "hopes" it wont cause too much of a problem but if things are too different, it will. Its going to be a very difficult balancing act.
If anything like DAoC it won't be that big of a deal, there were no racial skills........some better resists to certain damage types, and the stat differences...which meant, for instance, you could hit harder but it was slower.....and your defense was lower
So glad MJ sticks to his guns on with the principles..
Looks like casual carebears are already trying to get in here and complain about fast travel.
Yss, the next thing you know the carebears will be asking for things like no player looting and (limited) safe zones. Oh, wait, nevermind...
I want player looting and Im not a fan of safe zones, minus a brand new character. How is that the same as not wanting to waste 1/2 my night traveling? Id like to spend more time fighting.
You are not a fan of safe zones, but you like very limited safe zones. Got it.
Also, one could make the argument that fast travel cuts down the time that you are exposed to RvR/PvP and is therefore an RvR/PvP avoidance or control mechanism. I don't really like the to use the term carebear as it only has negative and emotion-generating connotations, but strictly be the definition of the phrase....
Speed classes are confirmed as in. Mounts (not as fast travel but) as pack animals are confirmed in.
So , what are we arguing over? Teleports? Flight masters? Those will not be in the game and you should reread the foundational princples if you think there is a chance in hell of them being in the game.
The races/genders will be very different from each other in terms of their starting stats/abilities but also in numerous other ways. For example, certain races/genders are better attuned to the sources of magical power in the world. I know some people will complain that this is not fair but that is how it is going to be in CU, where these choices matter. We want the player to think carefully before they create their character, to run the various character generators and read the guides before beginning the process. We are not seeking to gain traction among traditionally non-gamers but rather amongst experienced RPG and MMORPG players. We are not dumbing down this game to sell more copies but rather building the game with our eyes focused on our target demographic and what we believe will appeal to them. We know that every choice we make will be available to players for their dissection before CU ships and we trust our players to learn how to deal with them. IMO, the vast majority of our players will be experienced gamers but also have played other MMOs and have more than a passing knowledge of P&PGs so hand-holding, hidden statistics, vanilla starting builds are neither necessary nor sought by them.
Personally, i think we could do without gender playing a role in stat distribution. Races, though, should absolutely be an important consideration.
What WoW did, what it did wrong, etc, really has nothing to do with it. This isn't WoW.
Agreed. Not sure how quickly stamina should regen in CU, but frankly there shouldn't be classes whose sole purpose is to buff others. I remember fooling around with a mentalist at some point. I pretty much just had to give everyone crack and toss around the occasional heal. Meh.
It's pretty much like the crafting class here. The buffing class will be fun if it is active, and it'll be designed to not get the whole "launch some buffs then AFK". You should go see the thread about limited buffs : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/382191/page/1#5671380
Originally posted by Cruorr
If sex is going to matter, are female characters going to get a major strength penalty? Before we get to the wrong place, yes there are plenty of women who can beat the crap out of many men, but shes going to lose to the strongest man... are women just going to make poor strength based melee chracters? For that matter, using a longbow takes increadable strength. Can a human ever be a tank, or only the largest races? Are you going to have to mkae an elf for a strong magic class? Choice should matter in a lot of aspects(like assigning your own stat points) but race can get messy. I remember in WoW when only Dwarfs had fear ward, so a less skilled dwarf priest would be taken over an elf/human priest in Karazan because of the undead dragon that could fear. It was a bad idea, and was changed.
As for what WoW did in blurring the line, it was needed, or they would have to rebalance the game from the ground up. I played since beta, and the differences between a paladin and shaman were just too big. Windfury was too amazing for dps, and the paladins survivability was just too much over the shamans. I support not wanting full mirror images, but if you have something amazing on one side, its going to cause problems... MJ even mentioned it, he "hopes" it wont cause too much of a problem but if things are too different, it will. Its going to be a very difficult balancing act.
It is true than a woman has inferior strength compared to a man at equal age, alimentation and training.
But you can make it up with magical abilities. There is no magic on our world, so we can go and assume women are better at it than men.
It'll give different playstyle. A woman warrior will rely on her agility and quickness instead of strength and constitution. The lack of HP when fighting against a mage would be made up by increased magic resistance.
It is also normal to have the big muscular TDD have an advantadge in melee against the smaller quickest female Viking in term of constitution. Bigger body, less chances to reach all the way into vital area.
Why would you allow all races to do all classes without differences? Generally, somebody playing a dwarf won't like the race because it can do some nice high magic. Every player getting a dwarf will want to be though and good at melee fighting, not be magicians. Or their knowledge about dwarf characteristic is quite different from everything i have seen so far.
You can make the classes different, as if you stick to the lore the players wouldn't have expected other unlikely possibilities. The gnomes can be a warrior? Wait, who would think about using a gnome to be a warrior? Isn't pointless to allow them to be as good warriors as the big TDD, given than the player wanting to be one is basically somebody who also wants to be strong looking?
If you want a warrior, but don't like the idea of being forced to choose the best race, then you're screwed. But wait, can't you adapt and find a fitting play style? It's the same as the differences between men and women.
You'll have to take your favorite race and find out a way to use it efficiently by knowing its strengths and weaknesses. If another race is better in another stats, then compensate in another area. You can't take as many hits, but you can avoid more. You can't avoid more, but you can block better. Then the reactionary styles you use will be different.
It would only benefit people using smaller build to be harder to target, not really a good thing.
About WoW balancing, i wouldn't use it here. WoW need to handle both PvE and PvP, whereas CU will only focus on PvP, and with the backers being involved so early it shouldn't be a problem.
Knight of the blazing sun and chosen were not warriors. They were support that could melee, chosen had to twist buffs and auras, knights of the blazing sun came out months after the game was released. A warrior relies purely on melee/close range abilities and is a front line fighter. WoW's Warrior, DAoC's Armsman, SWTOR Guardian/Juggernaught.
I admit it has been awhile since I played WAR and I played it at release and for several months after but I remember the knight of the blazing sun being there when I left. Regardless of when it was added, it was most certainly a tank, as was the chosen. I did not play SWTOR, I had high hopes for it but as it got further along in development I realized it would not be my thing. I played DAoC quite awhile ago but from what I remember the Armsman was extrememly useful if specd for damage output (don't remember seeing many as tanks). So I am going to assume by warrior you mean a melee dps specialized character wearing heavy armor and carrying heavy weapons (going with mostly a WoW warrior here) which kind of gives the player the best of both worlds and relatively no tradeoff in selection, which in my mind shouldn't happen. Can't comment on SWTOR as I have noted I did not play it, warriors in WoW are something that would take a very long time to discuss, and DAoC actually had drawbacks for classes like the Armsman in the basic bonuses/penalties their armor had regarding specific damage types as well as the entire way that endurance worked. Since the specifics of class abilties/bonuses/penalties are yet to be released at this point I am simply hoping that there will be tradeoffs that matter.
If sex is going to matter, are female characters going to get a major strength penalty? Before we get to the wrong place, yes there are plenty of women who can beat the crap out of many men, but shes going to lose to the strongest man... are women just going to make poor strength based melee chracters? For that matter, using a longbow takes increadable strength. Can a human ever be a tank, or only the largest races? Are you going to have to mkae an elf for a strong magic class? Choice should matter in a lot of aspects(like assigning your own stat points) but race can get messy. I remember in WoW when only Dwarfs had fear ward, so a less skilled dwarf priest would be taken over an elf/human priest in Karazan because of the undead dragon that could fear. It was a bad idea, and was changed.
Do I think a female human should have the ability to be a warrior? I say it depends on the lore and the game world itself, if the faction(s) with female humans allow humans to be warriors then yes. But no her base strength should not be the same as male's, by the same token a male's base charisma or maybe even dexterity should not be as high as a female's. A game should allow the player to reallocate some of these values but not all of them as you clearly have something you want to emphasize on your character via race/sex/class. So a caster would not generally boost their strength over their intelligence or wisdom just as a rogue/assassin/thief would not boost intelligence or wisdom over dexterity. A longbow (really bows in general) actually takes a very specific kind of strength developed by using them as the muscles used in such an action are not generally used for much of anything else. Given that archers were trained from relatively young ages to start using more and more powerful bows as they grew older something like that would be addressed by allowing you to allocate a number of stat points during character creation regardless of choosing male or female. I actually think that size should matter, if you choose to have a human that is 7 feet tall (or whatever the largest size is) you should have a higher base strength and probably higher constitution than those that choose to be 4 - 5 feet tall. However you will not be hiding behind many bushes or easily fit through most doorways without crouching where that 4 - 5 foot tall human could easily park themselves behind a bush without anyone noticing or run through a doorway. I do however doubt we will see games that go to this length any time soon, if we do though I will be watching very closely. Once again the WoW part will be ignored, if you feel like discussing it feel free to PM me I just don't want to go on a side rant about it here.
As for what WoW did in blurring the line, it was needed, or they would have to rebalance the game from the ground up. I played since beta, and the differences between a paladin and shaman were just too big. Windfury was too amazing for dps, and the paladins survivability was just too much over the shamans. I support not wanting full mirror images, but if you have something amazing on one side, its going to cause problems... MJ even mentioned it, he "hopes" it wont cause too much of a problem but if things are too different, it will. Its going to be a very difficult balancing act.
If blurring the lines is the solution to the problem then the problem is a huge one that should have been addressed long ago, that was an enormous mistake on their part (in terms of balance and consistency). Unfortunately catering to the largest number or players possible means you also appeal to lowest common denominator which means that mistake actually might have gotten them more money and a larger audience but thankfully that is not the goal of CSE with CU. So I come back to choice needs to matter, otherwise there would be warriors healing priests and priests dual wielding daggers to stab mages in the face because mages had heavy armor and a shield in a world where factions did not exist because their existence might matter.
#3 People saying quick travel stops pvp are dead wrong. I didnt say flying mounts, I just want quick travel. If you want to kill people: you patrol the spots where people are going to get crafting material, you go to The Depths, you fight at Keeps, you fight at popular mob spawns, you have events in the world that arent in safe zones, you have shops with rare items outside of safe zones, etc etc. They can fast travel to these locations but once they are there, its full on pvp. Another idea is make some of the quick travel points capturable by certain factions, to force pvp over it.
I like most of the ideas for the game, I have already contributed $, but I want the game to do well, not have just a handful of players to fight. I honestly think these are things that need to be looked at to have even a moderate player base. How Niche do you want it to get? Like Neocron or Darkfall that eventually only had a few hundred (if that) people online?
i actually liked the daoc-nf system ... you had teleports to your realms keeps but your enemys were able to delete these so once you saw your teleports were broken you knew there will be a raid incoiming and the zerg prepared to run as fast as possible to the attacked keep and some tried to get the teleporter back ...
or once you captured a keep + all of its towers you were able to port into the enemys frontiers and by this dont waste 10mins in a boat waiting to get to the fight so fights over ports were pretty important for the raiding of your whole realm and a single group breaking the enemys port quickly were able to let your whole realm win by getting a relic (giving a hugh advantage)
but there was allways ROOM between the porter so if there was a enemy group spotted between one and the next poerter this meant several minutes of running and while running there you never knew when you had the inc
this would be destroyed if you can port to any choke point any tower any keep .... if you activate this kind of porting system you can also delete the whole rvr zone and make instanced bgs because noone would ever run anywhere but directly port to the inc
You are not a fan of safe zones, but you like very limited safe zones. Got it.
Also, one could make the argument that fast travel cuts down the time that you are exposed to RvR/PvP and is therefore an RvR/PvP avoidance or control mechanism. I don't really like the to use the term carebear as it only has negative and emotion-generating connotations, but strictly be the definition of the phrase....
I'm not a fan of someone who is losing a fight running into a safe zone to escape death. I'm not a fan of max level characters being able to do large parts of a games content in safe zones. However, it should not be an option for a max level character to go to the new character starting area and kill new characters... its also nice to have at least 1 safe spot to conduct trades. If you can kill anyone anywhere, as I suppose you can in real life, then there needs to be an area with so many guards that you would be the next to die... I love open world pvp but you need at least one secure place.
The defenition of carebear is someone who does not like pvp, or only wanting extremely limited pvp on thier terms. Not wanting "clan ganksalot" camping the new character starter area is not being a carebear.
Im not saying I never want to have to travel 2 minutes, but on the other hand, a return to vanilla DAoC where we had to travel 30 minutes to get to an area doesn't sound thrilling either. A quick travel to several hubs would be nice. At the bare minimum, mounts, and fast ones.... setting up traps for travelers sounds fun to me, but you dont need a complete absense of fast travel for that to happen.
The main mistake I hope CU avoids is automating the social aspect of the game. I am not really concerned about this as there will be no instancing and no standard dungeons/raids, but I hope it avoids it all the same.
By "automating the social aspect of the game" I mean the current trend of making it so you never have to talk to other players to achieve things. You queue up for a dungeon, or a raid, or a PvP battle, blitz through it, and never need to talk or coordinate and thus never connect with anyone. You basically are playing a single-player game with other players acting as minions-for-hire.
You are not a fan of safe zones, but you like very limited safe zones. Got it.
Also, one could make the argument that fast travel cuts down the time that you are exposed to RvR/PvP and is therefore an RvR/PvP avoidance or control mechanism. I don't really like the to use the term carebear as it only has negative and emotion-generating connotations, but strictly be the definition of the phrase....
I'm not a fan of someone who is losing a fight running into a safe zone to escape death. I'm not a fan of max level characters being able to do large parts of a games content in safe zones. However, it should not be an option for a max level character to go to the new character starting area and kill new characters... its also nice to have at least 1 safe spot to conduct trades. If you can kill anyone anywhere, as I suppose you can in real life, then there needs to be an area with so many guards that you would be the next to die... I love open world pvp but you need at least one secure place.
The defenition of carebear is someone who does not like pvp, or only wanting extremely limited pvp on thier terms. Not wanting "clan ganksalot" camping the new character starter area is not being a carebear.
Im not saying I never want to have to travel 2 minutes, but on the other hand, a return to vanilla DAoC where we had to travel 30 minutes to get to an area doesn't sound thrilling either. A quick travel to several hubs would be nice. At the bare minimum, mounts, and fast ones.... setting up traps for travelers sounds fun to me, but you dont need a complete absense of fast travel for that to happen.
I was just quoting you on safe zones.
I wouldn't say areas with guards and safe zones are the same thing. One discourages PvP but it is still possible (think guard towers in Darkfall) and one is a magical developer coded mechanic that somehow prevents enemy entry or attack in a zone or area.
The first one is not carebear, the second one is.
As for fast travel. Mark Jacobs has already confirmed that there will be speed classes, but no mounts (other than for storage or portage), and no fast travel like teleports, summoning, or flight paths. No need to argue further about the travel in my opinion.
As for fast travel. Mark Jacobs has already confirmed that there will be speed classes, but no mounts (other than for storage or portage), and no fast travel like teleports, summoning, or flight paths. No need to argue further about the travel in my opinion.
Just to be clear, I dont believe he ever said that there would be no mounts. However he did say they were not a priority because they will have speed classes, and that they would not go faster than the speed class if added.
As for fast travel. Mark Jacobs has already confirmed that there will be speed classes, but no mounts (other than for storage or portage), and no fast travel like teleports, summoning, or flight paths. No need to argue further about the travel in my opinion.
Just to be clear, I dont believe he ever said that there would be no mounts. However he did say they were not a priority because they will have speed classes, and that they would not go faster than the speed class if added.
I agree, except he said that mounts would be slower than speed classes.
Here is the quote:
Mounts are not a no but they aren't a priority because we will have a speed class. Even when/if we put them in, they will not move as fast as the speed class will but they will be very useful for carrying stuff around.
First of all, I want to say I am very excited about CU, I've backed it and hope it does well. However, there were some some aspects of DAoC and Warhammer that myself and many others didnt like, that I hope arent repeated. I have seen a bunch of the vidoes discussing gameplay, but not every single one, so if I mention one that was covered, I'm sorry.
1) Reliance on stamina buffers...(I know buff botting was covered, but not this specific area.) Shamans etc who would give your group quick stamina recovery. If your stamina buffer wasn't on, you were pretty much screwed. If you played anyway, you were at a disadvantage. Stamina buffers often became prima donnas, knowing they were so highly sought after they could pretty much act as they wanted.
I don't know what your resource for physical damage is going to be, but I really hope its like WoW's rage system or a fast energy regen... WoW kept me for so long, not caring about the lore, hating the cartoony graphics, disliking much of the kiddy community etc simply because to me, the Warrior was so amazing to play, vs a DAoC/Warhammer Warrior. DAoC's world pvp was fantastic, but as a single class, WoW's classes were much more fun, as they werent so hugely group reliant and had had more fun abilities.
2) Make races cosmetic only. (for each side that is, difference classes on each side is interesting) While this doesnt make real world sense, it needs to be this way for a game. While I always play male characters, a huge portion of males like playing female, I dont think they would like it if they had lower strength then a male. (Dont want to get sexist here... but come on now..) Looking a certain way is important to people. in DAoC, you had to be a Troll if you wanted 100 strength. Stregth was great for melee. I love melee characters, but I dont want to be a fat, ugly, annoying sounds Troll. I wanted to be human so I took the -30 strength hit to do it.
Same problem in Warhammer. The character with the with the mechanic I liked the best was the Dwarf Warrior with the Grudge mechanic.... but then I HAD to be a dwarf. Yes, on one hand it was Dwarf lore, but on the other hand, humans, who have killed more of themselves then any of us can imagine, didn't have a pure warrior class, on either side of Warhammer. Felt restrictive and odd to me.
A lot of people won't like this, I personally find gnome warriors or 120 lb females being as strong as a 220 lb buffed out males a bit hard to swallow but you just need to get over it just like we get over all the other fantasy aspects of these games... I really think this is a big one, CU cant be as restrictive with the class/race thing.
3) Needs to be easy to get around. I know DAoC worked on this as time went on, TBH I cant remember Warhammers quick travel system. There needs to be an easy quick travel system out of the gate, or a lot of people will leave. Again, this is something certain people will oppose "it makes the world feel smaller, etc" but again I feel its needed to appease the majority. Exploring is cool at first, but after a while long travel times just get old. Its another small fix thats a big deal to todays mmo crowd.
1. I have no problem with endurance used for melee classes, or a class that provides an endurance buff. The prima-dona complex wasn't just endurance buffers. It was any class that was in high demand. Which tended to be bards & druids in hib. Removing the endurance mechanic isn't going to remove the prima-dona complex. People will always act that way as long as no one stands up to them.
2. I see no reason to not have racial abilities as long as they are properly balanced. The only reason people feel that "have" to play a certain race is because that race has a racial ability that is just completely unbalnced for their class. This a balance issue, pure and simple.
3. No, I don't want to see any quick travel options at all. Give me a horse at most, nothing else. MJ has already said that there will not be any waypoint quicktravel type bullshit. So please don't try and push that here.
Dear god know, Stamina Buffers and the likes do nothing but clog the system with more roles needed making it that much harder for certain roles to ever see a group. Plus this leads to an apidemic of Buff Botting, the absolute bane of DAoC's existence in the later stages of the games life span.
Cosmetic Races are stupid, may as well not even have races then. I like how the old games Racials meant something and you knew their strengths and weaknesses, which is a staple of RPG's from the D&D days.
Ease of movement can be had but there needs to be a reason for those who wish to explore to stop and smell the roses.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I will no mind if it takes 8 or so minutes sprinting/running to get back, 3 or 4 min with speed class
i would compromise with a system of KNOWN/MARKED travel routes where you can get on a horse for free....
with these caveats...
a. They don't go the whole way......you will need foot it for a bit of distance between posts
b. You can be knocked off.....doesn't need be 100% but you can
c. you CANNOT control the horse.........except jump off....maybe even taking damage
The horses would be slightly faster than a speed class.....or same as top speed while sprinting
Just going to point out that the info we have is that horse will be slower than the speed class AND good for hauling stuff which suggests that they may be quite a bit slower than the speed class.
3-4 minutes to get back into the battle is a bit optimistic in my opinion. Unless you are just counting pure travel time and not the time your body is being burned for several minutes and you can't release. I would guess 10 minutes would be the absolute quickest you could get back into a battle and then only if you were/had a speed class.
The main mistake I hope CU avoids is automating the social aspect of the game. I am not really concerned about this as there will be no instancing and no standard dungeons/raids, but I hope it avoids it all the same.
By "automating the social aspect of the game" I mean the current trend of making it so you never have to talk to other players to achieve things. You queue up for a dungeon, or a raid, or a PvP battle, blitz through it, and never need to talk or coordinate and thus never connect with anyone. You basically are playing a single-player game with other players acting as minions-for-hire.
Every post like this shrinks the games audience further. Is there such a thing as a micro-niche game?
I will no mind if it takes 8 or so minutes sprinting/running to get back, 3 or 4 min with speed class
i would compromise with a system of KNOWN/MARKED travel routes where you can get on a horse for free....
with these caveats...
a. They don't go the whole way......you will need foot it for a bit of distance between posts
b. You can be knocked off.....doesn't need be 100% but you can
c. you CANNOT control the horse.........except jump off....maybe even taking damage
The horses would be slightly faster than a speed class.....or same as top speed while sprinting
Just going to point out that the info we have is that horse will be slower than the speed class AND good for hauling stuff which suggests that they may be quite a bit slower than the speed class.
3-4 minutes to get back into the battle is a bit optimistic in my opinion. Unless you are just counting pure travel time and not the time your body is being burned for several minutes and you can't release. I would guess 10 minutes would be the absolute quickest you could get back into a battle and then only if you were/had a speed class.
First, these horses are not yours......they are not player controlled steeds which I believe what MJ has a "problem" with.
my times are based on AFTER release, trip to healer, fix weapon , walk out door of city..........
And the 3-4 minutes are for the fastest travel available, sprinting with no endurance lloss aye those numbers are too low......
I think you must ask this question first and foremost......
how long should someone be out of the conflict to give the victor of that particular battle a decent advantage?
A lot will be dependent on how the three realm's native lands are setup.....would almost need to be like a Y, where their base at each end.
Then need figure travel time from each end to nexus under fatest speed available. This X2= longest travel with fastest speed
I will no mind if it takes 8 or so minutes sprinting/running to get back, 3 or 4 min with speed class
i would compromise with a system of KNOWN/MARKED travel routes where you can get on a horse for free....
with these caveats...
a. They don't go the whole way......you will need foot it for a bit of distance between posts
b. You can be knocked off.....doesn't need be 100% but you can
c. you CANNOT control the horse.........except jump off....maybe even taking damage
The horses would be slightly faster than a speed class.....or same as top speed while sprinting
Just going to point out that the info we have is that horse will be slower than the speed class AND good for hauling stuff which suggests that they may be quite a bit slower than the speed class.
3-4 minutes to get back into the battle is a bit optimistic in my opinion. Unless you are just counting pure travel time and not the time your body is being burned for several minutes and you can't release. I would guess 10 minutes would be the absolute quickest you could get back into a battle and then only if you were/had a speed class.
First, these horses are not yours......they are not player controlled steeds which I believe what MJ has a "problem" with.
my times are based on AFTER release, trip to healer, fix weapon , walk out door of city..........
And the 3-4 minutes are for the fastest travel available, sprinting with no endurance loss
I realize you are just making suggestions for what you would like to see. I guess I am merely stating that I would like to see no faster than normal travel options other than the speed class(es) and I would like it to take more than 3-4 minutes to get back to a RvR battle. We probably won't have any info on these sytems until quite a while into internal testing or even alpha. From what Mark has said so far, though, it is my opinion that we will be hoofing it aside from speed classes and that it will take quite a while to get back to a battle front after dealth.
Comments
Fast travel can artificially inflate the difficulty of capturing points, but removing it entirely is not the option. Providing a means of quick transportation can add another layer of depth to the planning of a siege, assuming you can negate the benefit it provides.
Knocking out fast travel points in a region, or capturing them for your own use, is a good indicator that something is going down, which in turn will bring more players to the battle.
I'd like to see CU avoid scenarios where you're stuck running for 20 minutes in completely uncontested territory. That's not making the game easy, it's just removing non-value added tedium. At the same time, I absolutely love that death is going to sting in this game, and so there needs to be a certain delay before you can rush back to the fight. Most games take fast travel way too far, IMO.
Just thinking aloud, maybe a road system between certain keeps, allowing for expedited (whether portals/horses/armies of gnomes carrying you, I'll leave that to CSE) travel between those keeps when you're connected. But other keeps shouldn't be connected to necessarily any road (or at least any form of expedited travel), and you can't just pop right into a keep that is being attacked no matter what kind of keep it is. J
There is a great feature in DAoC, that will probably also be in CU, named autorun. Once it is activated you can let go of W and still keep going, and stop when you hit W again or S but not when turning.
Something here to keep in mind also, the Time To Kill will be quite long, so it means that you won't travel 20 min to fight 10 sec.
Besides, you are not doing nothing while you are traveling, you have to look constantly around you if any enemy is coming, watch out for ambushes, monitor your realm map to see if there is a place to help defend/attack, the chat will also provide useful informations on enemy movements from our spies, and there is all the pressure of wondering if you'll make it in time or not, while still having to be careful about any potential trap left there by an enemy that could slow you down and possibly reveal your presence with damage log.
Finally, there is the tactical side. What's best than knowing an important part of the strategy is left to your group, than if you screw up the whole army is going to get into trouble, knowing than not only your victory is at stake but the one of all the other groups that count on you to take that keep/tower or to hold it long enough to let them achieve their own task?
That's what's RvR is about, you don't only need to win for your personal gain, but for the whole realm if you want to be able to do anything significant.
Some people also want to be the one leading all those players. Personally i don't, and lots of people feel that way, if i trust what's happening on hib/ywain where nobody wants to lead a group and so there are mostly soloers, but i would really like to be able to take part in establishing the strategy.
1) Reliance on a single class/subclass should not be a must, however they should definitely provide a benefit that would otherwise be lacking. Artificially decreasing the amount of depth a game has simply to make everyone feel special enough is something that caters to the current trend of major MMOs that CSE is trying to avoid with CU.
2) Since it has already been stated that both race and to some extent sex will matter I will point out why I agree with making it that way. Because it makes your choices during character creation matter, because it means you can't get everything you want. There must be some sort of tradeoff for the decisions you make otherwise the decision is meaningless. Blizzard for example broke their own established lore multiple times to cater to the masses and pretty much blurred the lines between horde and alliance to a point where even your choice of faction no longer mattered. And their classes being fun is a very subjective thing which I do not actually agree with. I would actually say they were far less fun than they could have been and incredibly easy to become bored with rather quickly given that they had no real depth. Also, WAR did have warriors for humans, since you mentioned grudge I assume you meant Ironbreaker which was a tank type career. Knight of the blazing sun was the choice for empire and chosen was the choice for chaos. Since they were mirrored classes they were slightly different but still brought the same things to the table. If you are basing the notion of a pure tank on what you experienced in WoW then this part of the conversation is pretty much over.
3) Definitely not a fan of. Reason: Pretty much whats been said about niche/zerging/world size/etc.
Knight of the blazing sun and chosen were not warriors. They were support that could melee, chosen had to twist buffs and auras, knights of the blazing sun came out months after the game was released. A warrior relies purely on melee/close range abilities and is a front line fighter. WoW's Warrior, DAoC's Armsman, SWTOR Guardian/Juggernaught.
If sex is going to matter, are female characters going to get a major strength penalty? Before we get to the wrong place, yes there are plenty of women who can beat the crap out of many men, but shes going to lose to the strongest man... are women just going to make poor strength based melee chracters? For that matter, using a longbow takes increadable strength. Can a human ever be a tank, or only the largest races? Are you going to have to mkae an elf for a strong magic class? Choice should matter in a lot of aspects(like assigning your own stat points) but race can get messy. I remember in WoW when only Dwarfs had fear ward, so a less skilled dwarf priest would be taken over an elf/human priest in Karazan because of the undead dragon that could fear. It was a bad idea, and was changed.
As for what WoW did in blurring the line, it was needed, or they would have to rebalance the game from the ground up. I played since beta, and the differences between a paladin and shaman were just too big. Windfury was too amazing for dps, and the paladins survivability was just too much over the shamans. I support not wanting full mirror images, but if you have something amazing on one side, its going to cause problems... MJ even mentioned it, he "hopes" it wont cause too much of a problem but if things are too different, it will. Its going to be a very difficult balancing act.
If anything like DAoC it won't be that big of a deal, there were no racial skills........some better resists to certain damage types, and the stat differences...which meant, for instance, you could hit harder but it was slower.....and your defense was lower
You are not a fan of safe zones, but you like very limited safe zones. Got it.
Also, one could make the argument that fast travel cuts down the time that you are exposed to RvR/PvP and is therefore an RvR/PvP avoidance or control mechanism. I don't really like the to use the term carebear as it only has negative and emotion-generating connotations, but strictly be the definition of the phrase....
Speed classes are confirmed as in. Mounts (not as fast travel but) as pack animals are confirmed in.
So , what are we arguing over? Teleports? Flight masters? Those will not be in the game and you should reread the foundational princples if you think there is a chance in hell of them being in the game.
http://camelotunchained.com/en/foundational-principle-4-choice-matters/
Example #2 – Race/gender selections
The races/genders will be very different from each other in terms of their starting stats/abilities but also in numerous other ways. For example, certain races/genders are better attuned to the sources of magical power in the world. I know some people will complain that this is not fair but that is how it is going to be in CU, where these choices matter. We want the player to think carefully before they create their character, to run the various character generators and read the guides before beginning the process. We are not seeking to gain traction among traditionally non-gamers but rather amongst experienced RPG and MMORPG players. We are not dumbing down this game to sell more copies but rather building the game with our eyes focused on our target demographic and what we believe will appeal to them. We know that every choice we make will be available to players for their dissection before CU ships and we trust our players to learn how to deal with them. IMO, the vast majority of our players will be experienced gamers but also have played other MMOs and have more than a passing knowledge of P&PGs so hand-holding, hidden statistics, vanilla starting builds are neither necessary nor sought by them.
Personally, i think we could do without gender playing a role in stat distribution. Races, though, should absolutely be an important consideration.
What WoW did, what it did wrong, etc, really has nothing to do with it. This isn't WoW.
It's pretty much like the crafting class here. The buffing class will be fun if it is active, and it'll be designed to not get the whole "launch some buffs then AFK". You should go see the thread about limited buffs : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/382191/page/1#5671380
It is true than a woman has inferior strength compared to a man at equal age, alimentation and training.
But you can make it up with magical abilities. There is no magic on our world, so we can go and assume women are better at it than men.
It'll give different playstyle. A woman warrior will rely on her agility and quickness instead of strength and constitution. The lack of HP when fighting against a mage would be made up by increased magic resistance.
It is also normal to have the big muscular TDD have an advantadge in melee against the smaller quickest female Viking in term of constitution. Bigger body, less chances to reach all the way into vital area.
Why would you allow all races to do all classes without differences? Generally, somebody playing a dwarf won't like the race because it can do some nice high magic. Every player getting a dwarf will want to be though and good at melee fighting, not be magicians. Or their knowledge about dwarf characteristic is quite different from everything i have seen so far.
You can make the classes different, as if you stick to the lore the players wouldn't have expected other unlikely possibilities. The gnomes can be a warrior? Wait, who would think about using a gnome to be a warrior? Isn't pointless to allow them to be as good warriors as the big TDD, given than the player wanting to be one is basically somebody who also wants to be strong looking?
If you want a warrior, but don't like the idea of being forced to choose the best race, then you're screwed. But wait, can't you adapt and find a fitting play style? It's the same as the differences between men and women.
You'll have to take your favorite race and find out a way to use it efficiently by knowing its strengths and weaknesses. If another race is better in another stats, then compensate in another area. You can't take as many hits, but you can avoid more. You can't avoid more, but you can block better. Then the reactionary styles you use will be different.
It would only benefit people using smaller build to be harder to target, not really a good thing.
About WoW balancing, i wouldn't use it here. WoW need to handle both PvE and PvP, whereas CU will only focus on PvP, and with the backers being involved so early it shouldn't be a problem.
I admit it has been awhile since I played WAR and I played it at release and for several months after but I remember the knight of the blazing sun being there when I left. Regardless of when it was added, it was most certainly a tank, as was the chosen. I did not play SWTOR, I had high hopes for it but as it got further along in development I realized it would not be my thing. I played DAoC quite awhile ago but from what I remember the Armsman was extrememly useful if specd for damage output (don't remember seeing many as tanks). So I am going to assume by warrior you mean a melee dps specialized character wearing heavy armor and carrying heavy weapons (going with mostly a WoW warrior here) which kind of gives the player the best of both worlds and relatively no tradeoff in selection, which in my mind shouldn't happen. Can't comment on SWTOR as I have noted I did not play it, warriors in WoW are something that would take a very long time to discuss, and DAoC actually had drawbacks for classes like the Armsman in the basic bonuses/penalties their armor had regarding specific damage types as well as the entire way that endurance worked. Since the specifics of class abilties/bonuses/penalties are yet to be released at this point I am simply hoping that there will be tradeoffs that matter.
Do I think a female human should have the ability to be a warrior? I say it depends on the lore and the game world itself, if the faction(s) with female humans allow humans to be warriors then yes. But no her base strength should not be the same as male's, by the same token a male's base charisma or maybe even dexterity should not be as high as a female's. A game should allow the player to reallocate some of these values but not all of them as you clearly have something you want to emphasize on your character via race/sex/class. So a caster would not generally boost their strength over their intelligence or wisdom just as a rogue/assassin/thief would not boost intelligence or wisdom over dexterity. A longbow (really bows in general) actually takes a very specific kind of strength developed by using them as the muscles used in such an action are not generally used for much of anything else. Given that archers were trained from relatively young ages to start using more and more powerful bows as they grew older something like that would be addressed by allowing you to allocate a number of stat points during character creation regardless of choosing male or female. I actually think that size should matter, if you choose to have a human that is 7 feet tall (or whatever the largest size is) you should have a higher base strength and probably higher constitution than those that choose to be 4 - 5 feet tall. However you will not be hiding behind many bushes or easily fit through most doorways without crouching where that 4 - 5 foot tall human could easily park themselves behind a bush without anyone noticing or run through a doorway. I do however doubt we will see games that go to this length any time soon, if we do though I will be watching very closely. Once again the WoW part will be ignored, if you feel like discussing it feel free to PM me I just don't want to go on a side rant about it here.
If blurring the lines is the solution to the problem then the problem is a huge one that should have been addressed long ago, that was an enormous mistake on their part (in terms of balance and consistency). Unfortunately catering to the largest number or players possible means you also appeal to lowest common denominator which means that mistake actually might have gotten them more money and a larger audience but thankfully that is not the goal of CSE with CU. So I come back to choice needs to matter, otherwise there would be warriors healing priests and priests dual wielding daggers to stab mages in the face because mages had heavy armor and a shield in a world where factions did not exist because their existence might matter.
i actually liked the daoc-nf system ... you had teleports to your realms keeps but your enemys were able to delete these so once you saw your teleports were broken you knew there will be a raid incoiming and the zerg prepared to run as fast as possible to the attacked keep and some tried to get the teleporter back ...
or once you captured a keep + all of its towers you were able to port into the enemys frontiers and by this dont waste 10mins in a boat waiting to get to the fight so fights over ports were pretty important for the raiding of your whole realm and a single group breaking the enemys port quickly were able to let your whole realm win by getting a relic (giving a hugh advantage)
but there was allways ROOM between the porter so if there was a enemy group spotted between one and the next poerter this meant several minutes of running and while running there you never knew when you had the inc
this would be destroyed if you can port to any choke point any tower any keep .... if you activate this kind of porting system you can also delete the whole rvr zone and make instanced bgs because noone would ever run anywhere but directly port to the inc
I'm not a fan of someone who is losing a fight running into a safe zone to escape death. I'm not a fan of max level characters being able to do large parts of a games content in safe zones. However, it should not be an option for a max level character to go to the new character starting area and kill new characters... its also nice to have at least 1 safe spot to conduct trades. If you can kill anyone anywhere, as I suppose you can in real life, then there needs to be an area with so many guards that you would be the next to die... I love open world pvp but you need at least one secure place.
The defenition of carebear is someone who does not like pvp, or only wanting extremely limited pvp on thier terms. Not wanting "clan ganksalot" camping the new character starter area is not being a carebear.
Im not saying I never want to have to travel 2 minutes, but on the other hand, a return to vanilla DAoC where we had to travel 30 minutes to get to an area doesn't sound thrilling either. A quick travel to several hubs would be nice. At the bare minimum, mounts, and fast ones.... setting up traps for travelers sounds fun to me, but you dont need a complete absense of fast travel for that to happen.
The main mistake I hope CU avoids is automating the social aspect of the game. I am not really concerned about this as there will be no instancing and no standard dungeons/raids, but I hope it avoids it all the same.
By "automating the social aspect of the game" I mean the current trend of making it so you never have to talk to other players to achieve things. You queue up for a dungeon, or a raid, or a PvP battle, blitz through it, and never need to talk or coordinate and thus never connect with anyone. You basically are playing a single-player game with other players acting as minions-for-hire.
I was just quoting you on safe zones.
I wouldn't say areas with guards and safe zones are the same thing. One discourages PvP but it is still possible (think guard towers in Darkfall) and one is a magical developer coded mechanic that somehow prevents enemy entry or attack in a zone or area.
The first one is not carebear, the second one is.
As for fast travel. Mark Jacobs has already confirmed that there will be speed classes, but no mounts (other than for storage or portage), and no fast travel like teleports, summoning, or flight paths. No need to argue further about the travel in my opinion.
Just to be clear, I dont believe he ever said that there would be no mounts. However he did say they were not a priority because they will have speed classes, and that they would not go faster than the speed class if added.
I agree, except he said that mounts would be slower than speed classes.
Here is the quote:
Mounts are not a no but they aren't a priority because we will have a speed class. Even when/if we put them in, they will not move as fast as the speed class will but they will be very useful for carrying stuff around.
My opinion on the travel if you die.....
I will no mind if it takes 8 or so minutes sprinting/running to get back, 3 or 4 min with speed class
i would compromise with a system of KNOWN/MARKED travel routes where you can get on a horse for free....
with these caveats...
a. They don't go the whole way......you will need foot it for a bit of distance between posts
b. You can be knocked off.....doesn't need be 100% but you can
c. you CANNOT control the horse.........except jump off....maybe even taking damage
The horses would be slightly faster than a speed class.....or same as top speed while sprinting
1. I have no problem with endurance used for melee classes, or a class that provides an endurance buff. The prima-dona complex wasn't just endurance buffers. It was any class that was in high demand. Which tended to be bards & druids in hib. Removing the endurance mechanic isn't going to remove the prima-dona complex. People will always act that way as long as no one stands up to them.
2. I see no reason to not have racial abilities as long as they are properly balanced. The only reason people feel that "have" to play a certain race is because that race has a racial ability that is just completely unbalnced for their class. This a balance issue, pure and simple.
3. No, I don't want to see any quick travel options at all. Give me a horse at most, nothing else. MJ has already said that there will not be any waypoint quicktravel type bullshit. So please don't try and push that here.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Just going to point out that the info we have is that horse will be slower than the speed class AND good for hauling stuff which suggests that they may be quite a bit slower than the speed class.
3-4 minutes to get back into the battle is a bit optimistic in my opinion. Unless you are just counting pure travel time and not the time your body is being burned for several minutes and you can't release. I would guess 10 minutes would be the absolute quickest you could get back into a battle and then only if you were/had a speed class.
Every post like this shrinks the games audience further. Is there such a thing as a micro-niche game?
First, these horses are not yours......they are not player controlled steeds which I believe what MJ has a "problem" with.
my times are based on AFTER release, trip to healer, fix weapon , walk out door of city..........
And the 3-4 minutes are for the fastest travel available, sprinting with no endurance lloss aye those numbers are too low......
I think you must ask this question first and foremost......
how long should someone be out of the conflict to give the victor of that particular battle a decent advantage?
A lot will be dependent on how the three realm's native lands are setup.....would almost need to be like a Y, where their base at each end.
Then need figure travel time from each end to nexus under fatest speed available. This X2= longest travel with fastest speed
I realize you are just making suggestions for what you would like to see. I guess I am merely stating that I would like to see no faster than normal travel options other than the speed class(es) and I would like it to take more than 3-4 minutes to get back to a RvR battle. We probably won't have any info on these sytems until quite a while into internal testing or even alpha. From what Mark has said so far, though, it is my opinion that we will be hoofing it aside from speed classes and that it will take quite a while to get back to a battle front after dealth.