What's more important graphics or gameplay? If graphics are so important... why isn't SWG doing better?
Gameplay is paramount.
Blizzard makes the very best games? Why because they play there competitors games. Most game designers lock themselves in a room at the start of a project and do not come out until the game is done.
Blizzard plays other people games all though development. Star Craft was released a year late because they scrapped the project a year in, they knew the game they were making wasn't a good one. How many companies would do that? Think VI or Artifact would do that? No they would release it buggy and hope it's not that bad... and people would keep paying while they fix it.
WoW will have DAoC like PvP... and they have said the death penities would be light. When you die your a ghost for x amount of time, you can get a rez or release to your last bind.
Granted no game can be all things to all people, but WoW will be a great game... because Blizzard won't release it until it is. (probably sometime in 2005)
-=-=-=-=- A game is only late untill it's released, but it's bad forever. A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%
Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here
-=-=-=-=- Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
What is more important for gameplay? Ease or challenge? Longetivity or short-term? Hardcore play or playing casually?
In my opinion, better gameplay is that which is more challenging, will provide fun for a long time to come, and will be more hardcore and therefore addictive. Easiness is fun and all for carebears, but difficulty breeds competition, whereas the lack of challenge will leave people bored after a few months.
If WoW did not satisfy the requirements of a challenging gameplay that will cause people to be glued to their screens for a long time, hearts pumping because of possibilities of losing precious items upon death, or a criminal trying to kill you while you're just minding your own business, then it won't last.
That's my opinion anyway. And I don't do market research or anything, and I'm not even a hardcore player. But I think it's a lot more exciting to be challenged than to have everything handed to me.
When one posts false statements, one should be prepared for a rebuttle. That was not the only portion of your post and those statements were false, no denying that. Your most recent post is ignorant and facetious. Calling me names is not only childish, but it hurts my feelings, as well.. I will consider this discussion ended..
Really....I mean really...must we use the term "carebear"??
Initially you said casual players, ...whats wrong with using that term again in this sentence? The type of player who is often labelled as a carebear isnt even a player who likes things easy, it was a term first thrown at players many years ago, who didnt enjoy being killed/ganked randomly, as opposed to someone who has any opinions about the inherent difficulties of a game.
Personally I adore PvP, even though I am not much good at it , I do find that the excitement generated by pvp to be excellent hehe
I guess I just rile easily, but I like roleplay and have been called a carebear sooooooooo many times in the past, that it just ticks the hell out of me, I do find that the best way to promote a community spirit in a genre of game is not to insult people, and lets face it, the term carebear, is an insult at its core level.
Well, you both make good points but the thing to note here is that worrying about being ganked kinda sucks. I like PvP and whatnot, but it's not realistic. Many people play RPGs and play as something they wouldn't normally be in real life, or something they would like to be. That causes a good deal of people to basically become bandits or PKers. Now that wouldn't bother me if it was a small population of people who did that but since to many people do it, it makes PvP unbalanced to where to many people try to kill you for loot than what it would realistically be. Now if someone kills me I accept it and don't cause a cat fight of the ingame chat asking for a rematch, I lost and thats that. But with to many people being PKers it attracts from the fun at being attacked every other time you leave the city. If that didn't make sense tell me and i'll try to clear it up
Originally posted by Clever_Glove What's more important graphics or gameplay? If graphics are so important... why isn't SWG doing better? Gameplay is paramount. Blizzard makes the very best games? Why because they play there competitors games. Most game designers lock themselves in a room at the start of a project and do not come out until the game is done. Blizzard plays other people games all though development. Star Craft was released a year late because they scrapped the project a year in, they knew the game they were making wasn't a good one. How many companies would do that? Think VI or Artifact would do that? No they would release it buggy and hope it's not that bad... and people would keep paying while they fix it. WoW will have DAoC like PvP... and they have said the death penities would be light. When you die your a ghost for x amount of time, you can get a rez or release to your last bind. Granted no game can be all things to all people, but WoW will be a great game... because Blizzard won't release it until it is. (probably sometime in 2005)
-=-=-=-=- A game is only late untill it's released, but it's bad forever. A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here
Well dunno what you mean SWG not doing better it has 275,000 accounts and this only a USA release.
It is due in europe in 1 month and is already topping many UK sites for pre orders and 3 in nearly all the rest behind doom3 and half life 2.
Not seen that for any mmorpg here yet to do that.
Lets not forget the asia market too
Not saying graphics is more important at all but just that its giving a false impression that 1)SWG has a low client base.which is totally false as it is second only to EQ atm and maybe lineage.
2)that it is all graphics.many have found it a good game with a different approach to the MMORPG.
K2theK, someone else used the term carebear to refer to WoW's death penalty a while ago, and I merely thought that it would harken back to that post. I didn't mean it as an insult, because a carebear isn't necessarily derogatory in the strictest sense, it means that you want the rules to be easier. A casual player (someone who plays less than 10 hours a week) might still want difficult rules, or no twinking, whereas someone who plays a lot can still want a great deal of leniency in the rules.
Lineage 1, by the way, has many times the fan base of EverQuest, over 1 million subscribers, and is listed among the largest Internet paid-subscription services of all time. Lineage II has hundreds of thousands of subscribers already, but it has not been yet released in North America. I personally believe that it has the best graphics of all the video games I've ever played or seen, but that is subjective opinion. What is objective are the numbers, and the degree to which people are willing to shell out the equivalent of $30 a month (US currency) in Korea in order to play this game.
By the way, a well-done PvP system does not necessarily promote griefing. Even if you can kill a player any time, anywhere, in any battle ground (except for towns), it does not mean that people will merely do so. If you kill a helpless player who does not fight back, you turn red or a criminal, and anyone can hunt you down. The player you kill does not drop any items, whereas the criminal can now be hunted by anyone freely and could drop lots of items, including equipped items. This system works, and it works well. I do not believe that non-consensual PvP lends itself to griefing as everyone believes.
Last I heard Lineage 1 was closer to 3 million subscribers according to a number of articles on the top mmorpgs. I dont really understand why the original was so popular, it didnt look that good to me, but Lineage 2 on the other hand looks just amazing in so many ways.
As for 'carebears' I proudly to consider myself one.
The problem is EQ has a sever with open PvP... or at least they did (I think they changed to have a level limit on who you can attack?).. I think Sullesk Ro is the closet now. Forgive me here i never really followed the PvP severs that closely...
PvP was so poorly implemented, and random PKing was just rampit. There was no system for keeping it in check. So people would flame, and opinion where made that open PvP is bad. I think EQ has allot to do with why people hate the concept so much...
I tried to play on EQ's PvP severs... and would killed in the newbe zone so much and so often I gave up after week. And join the ranks open PvP sucks. It's very frustrating to get PKed at level 9 by a level 55 in a newbe zone.
Recently I've played number of open PvP games (lineage isn't alone in this)... and I would agree. If you have a good system it will deter people form random PKing. While it could happen... it generally doesn't.
What does open PvP give you? The ability to Police yourself, this is a great power that shouldn't be so easily overlooked. Ever have someone KS you? Train you? Call your mother bad names? Annul your pets? It's probably not going to happen in open PvP. People tend to be respectful. They don't need anymore enemies.
Sadly it's takes more and open PvP to give a game longevity. So i've switched away from it. But I'd love nothing more than a open well implemented open PvP game with allot of content.
Personally the only PvP restriction that are helpful is the anti-bottom feeding rules.
-=-=-=-=- A game is only late untill it's released, but it's bad forever. A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%
Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here
-=-=-=-=- Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
Originally posted by Misti Last I heard Lineage 1 was closer to 3 million subscribers according to a number of articles on the top mmorpgs. I dont really understand why the original was so popular, it didnt look that good to me, but Lineage 2 on the other hand looks just amazing in so many ways. As for 'carebears' I proudly to consider myself one.
Linage is a Korean game. video games were illegal in Korea until 1994. Once the hood came off people flocked to PC bangs to play games. Did you know one in 10 Koreans owns a copy of StarCraft.
Due to overwhelming demand for games, many Korean game companies started to spring up to satisfy the demand. Allot of games did very well in Korea that were laughable by US standards during the mid to late 90's.
Do you know there are professional video game players in Korea?
I would expect to see to influence on what games are made in the US due to Korean buying power.
-=-=-=-=- A game is only late until it's released, but it's bad forever. A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%
Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here
-=-=-=-=- Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
This is my view on WOW. No one knows what it will be like, atleast until beta. But even with beta they change things so much before the release, I have heard this happened with SB. Djin (i think) said he did SB beta and it was cool, but now he hates the released version. to me WOW looks like a world like eq or other mmorpgs, and a mix of diablo and gauntlet. they borrowed some moves from diablo and the graphics kinda remind me of gauntlet. Not that its a bad thing, but the gameplay has to be really good to get me to join it, I myself, am looking foreward to horizons, but thats just my personal preference. I am not a carebear, i played daoc for a while and enjoyed the bg's although rvr in emain sucked! I just hope it turns out to have good gameplay, because although the graphics are smooth, im not all impressed with the cartoonish look. once again, dont flame, just personal preference.
It sure does. If it continues at this pace until i's released, we won't need to play it LOL, there won't anything to discover and nothing to surpise us. Too much info. too soon, it's not even in beta yet!
Other comments in this thread.
Horizons overhyped? Compared to WoW they have said diddley sqwat. Whether what has been promised will be any good, only time will tell.
Carebear = safe/easy gameplay? Who ever said that is wrong! EQ is the game most people name as being carebear and it isn't safe and it isn't easy.
Originally posted by Hoodwink WoW publicity machine rolls on....
It sure does. If it continues at this pace until i's released, we won't need to play it LOL, there won't anything to discover and nothing to surpise us. Too much info. too soon, it's not even in beta yet!
Other comments in this thread.
Horizons overhyped? Compared to WoW they have said diddley sqwat. Whether was that has promised will be any good only time will tell.
Carebear = safe/easy gameplay? Who ever said that is wrong! EQ is the game most people name as being carebear and it isn't safe and it isn't easy.
Rant over
Hoodwink - Half Elf Ranger
Compated to WoW Horizons has said squat?! What are you nuts? Horizons has released information on a regular basis, and the screens are coiming with some regularity now. But in reading posts and information on WoW I had to ask someone what WoW offered. I have not seen too much info, and I the sites that I searched on had some info, but not nearly as much as I have seen for Horizons. I think it just may depend on what you are looking forward to, and what sites you are looking at.
_________________________________ Vic - "Androzzi here" John - "Vic, your case just busted wide open." Vic - "So close it for me!" John - "Looks like your going to have to close it yourself, SHITTY!!!!"
_________________________________ Vic - "Androzzi here" John - "Vic, your case just busted wide open." Vic - "So close it for me!" John - "Looks like your going to have to close it yourself, SHITTY!!!!"
Comments
What's more important graphics or gameplay? If graphics are so important... why isn't SWG doing better?
Gameplay is paramount.
Blizzard makes the very best games? Why because they play there competitors games. Most game designers lock themselves in a room at the start of a project and do not come out until the game is done.
Blizzard plays other people games all though development. Star Craft was released a year late because they scrapped the project a year in, they knew the game they were making wasn't a good one. How many companies would do that? Think VI or Artifact would do that? No they would release it buggy and hope it's not that bad... and people would keep paying while they fix it.
WoW will have DAoC like PvP... and they have said the death penities would be light. When you die your a ghost for x amount of time, you can get a rez or release to your last bind.
Granted no game can be all things to all people, but WoW will be a great game... because Blizzard won't release it until it is. (probably sometime in 2005)
-=-=-=-=-
A game is only late untill it's released, but it's bad forever.
A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%
Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here
-=-=-=-=-
Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
Gameplay. Let's look at that, shall we?
What is more important for gameplay? Ease or challenge? Longetivity or short-term? Hardcore play or playing casually?
In my opinion, better gameplay is that which is more challenging, will provide fun for a long time to come, and will be more hardcore and therefore addictive. Easiness is fun and all for carebears, but difficulty breeds competition, whereas the lack of challenge will leave people bored after a few months.
If WoW did not satisfy the requirements of a challenging gameplay that will cause people to be glued to their screens for a long time, hearts pumping because of possibilities of losing precious items upon death, or a criminal trying to kill you while you're just minding your own business, then it won't last.
That's my opinion anyway. And I don't do market research or anything, and I'm not even a hardcore player. But I think it's a lot more exciting to be challenged than to have everything handed to me.
http://www.rosefu.com/
Rathma,
When one posts false statements, one should be prepared for a rebuttle. That was not the only portion of your post and those statements were false, no denying that. Your most recent post is ignorant and facetious. Calling me names is not only childish, but it hurts my feelings, as well.. I will consider this discussion ended..
Pet Peeve coming up....rant warning
"Easiness is fun and all for carebears"
Really....I mean really...must we use the term "carebear"??
Initially you said casual players, ...whats wrong with using that term again in this sentence? The type of player who is often labelled as a carebear isnt even a player who likes things easy, it was a term first thrown at players many years ago, who didnt enjoy being killed/ganked randomly, as opposed to someone who has any opinions about the inherent difficulties of a game.
Personally I adore PvP, even though I am not much good at it
, I do find that the excitement generated by pvp to be excellent hehe
I guess I just rile easily, but I like roleplay and have been called a carebear sooooooooo many times in the past, that it just ticks the hell out of me, I do find that the best way to promote a community spirit in a genre of game is not to insult people, and lets face it, the term carebear, is an insult at its core level.
-----------------------------------------
Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, ash burzum-ishi krimbatul.
-----------------------------------------
Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, ash burzum-ishi krimbatul.
Well dunno what you mean SWG not doing better it has 275,000 accounts and this only a USA release.
It is due in europe in 1 month and is already topping many UK sites for pre orders and 3 in nearly all the rest behind doom3 and half life 2.
Not seen that for any mmorpg here yet to do that.
Lets not forget the asia market too
Not saying graphics is more important at all but just that its giving a false impression that 1)SWG has a low client base.which is totally false as it is second only to EQ atm and maybe lineage.
2)that it is all graphics.many have found it a good game with a different approach to the MMORPG.
K2theK, someone else used the term carebear to refer to WoW's death penalty a while ago, and I merely thought that it would harken back to that post. I didn't mean it as an insult, because a carebear isn't necessarily derogatory in the strictest sense, it means that you want the rules to be easier. A casual player (someone who plays less than 10 hours a week) might still want difficult rules, or no twinking, whereas someone who plays a lot can still want a great deal of leniency in the rules.
Lineage 1, by the way, has many times the fan base of EverQuest, over 1 million subscribers, and is listed among the largest Internet paid-subscription services of all time. Lineage II has hundreds of thousands of subscribers already, but it has not been yet released in North America. I personally believe that it has the best graphics of all the video games I've ever played or seen, but that is subjective opinion. What is objective are the numbers, and the degree to which people are willing to shell out the equivalent of $30 a month (US currency) in Korea in order to play this game.
By the way, a well-done PvP system does not necessarily promote griefing. Even if you can kill a player any time, anywhere, in any battle ground (except for towns), it does not mean that people will merely do so. If you kill a helpless player who does not fight back, you turn red or a criminal, and anyone can hunt you down. The player you kill does not drop any items, whereas the criminal can now be hunted by anyone freely and could drop lots of items, including equipped items. This system works, and it works well. I do not believe that non-consensual PvP lends itself to griefing as everyone believes.
http://www.rosefu.com/
As for 'carebears' I proudly to consider myself one.
The problem is EQ has a sever with open PvP... or at least they did (I think they changed to have a level limit on who you can attack?).. I think Sullesk Ro is the closet now. Forgive me here i never really followed the PvP severs that closely...
PvP was so poorly implemented, and random PKing was just rampit. There was no system for keeping it in check. So people would flame, and opinion where made that open PvP is bad. I think EQ has allot to do with why people hate the concept so much...
I tried to play on EQ's PvP severs... and would killed in the newbe zone so much and so often I gave up after week. And join the ranks open PvP sucks. It's very frustrating to get PKed at level 9 by a level 55 in a newbe zone.
Recently I've played number of open PvP games (lineage isn't alone in this)... and I would agree. If you have a good system it will deter people form random PKing. While it could happen... it generally doesn't.
What does open PvP give you? The ability to Police yourself, this is a great power that shouldn't be so easily overlooked. Ever have someone KS you? Train you? Call your mother bad names? Annul your pets? It's probably not going to happen in open PvP. People tend to be respectful. They don't need anymore enemies.
Sadly it's takes more and open PvP to give a game longevity. So i've switched away from it. But I'd love nothing more than a open well implemented open PvP game with allot of content.
Personally the only PvP restriction that are helpful is the anti-bottom feeding rules.
-=-=-=-=-
A game is only late untill it's released, but it's bad forever.
A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%
Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here
-=-=-=-=-
Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
Linage is a Korean game. video games were illegal in Korea until 1994. Once the hood came off people flocked to PC bangs to play games. Did you know one in 10 Koreans owns a copy of StarCraft.
Due to overwhelming demand for games, many Korean game companies started to spring up to satisfy the demand. Allot of games did very well in Korea that were laughable by US standards during the mid to late 90's.
Do you know there are professional video game players in Korea?
Games are HUGE there, probably the one of the biggest game markets on earth. http://www.tdctrade.com/imn/imn190/toys10.htm
I would expect to see to influence on what games are made in the US due to Korean buying power.
-=-=-=-=-
A game is only late until it's released, but it's bad forever.
A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%
Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here
-=-=-=-=-
Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
This is my view on WOW. No one knows what it will be like, atleast until beta. But even with beta they change things so much before the release, I have heard this happened with SB. Djin (i think) said he did SB beta and it was cool, but now he hates the released version. to me WOW looks like a world like eq or other mmorpgs, and a mix of diablo and gauntlet. they borrowed some moves from diablo and the graphics kinda remind me of gauntlet. Not that its a bad thing, but the gameplay has to be really good to get me to join it, I myself, am looking foreward to horizons, but thats just my personal preference. I am not a carebear, i played daoc for a while and enjoyed the bg's although rvr in emain sucked! I just hope it turns out to have good gameplay, because although the graphics are smooth, im not all impressed with the cartoonish look. once again, dont flame, just personal preference.
Hoodwink - Half Elf Ranger
Hoodwink
_________________________________
Vic - "Androzzi here"
John - "Vic, your case just busted wide open."
Vic - "So close it for me!"
John - "Looks like your going to have to close it yourself, SHITTY!!!!"
_________________________________
Vic - "Androzzi here"
John - "Vic, your case just busted wide open."
Vic - "So close it for me!"
John - "Looks like your going to have to close it yourself, SHITTY!!!!"