Originally posted by Alkoun Correct me if I'm wrong, but these random, spontaneous events began with Warhammer online, did they not? Public Quests.
I'm a little late on the reply, but Tabula Rasa is where I first noticed these types of dynamic events. Warhammer had more variety in the PQs though and popularized the concept.
Well the information released so far on Arcanist/Summoner is as follows:
They're intended as a support class/job focusing on buffing and debuffing.
Arcanist has access only to Carbuncle and you can summon different versions for different things (presumably one specifically for soloing).
Summoner will have access to six (from memory) Primal avatars, which are weaker versions of the actual Primals. We still don't know all six for certain, though based on those we know to be in the game it's quite easy to guess they'll be Ifrit, Shiva, Garuda, Titan, Leviathan and Ramuh.
We don't know yet if the player will have to do a quest to obtain each avatar (though I hope they do).
I'm not too familiar with Gems but I think it's relatively safe to say we won't see anything quite as extreme as XI's NM camping. From what I understand NMs are now tied into the F.A.T.E. system.
XI's Beastmaster isn't returning yet though I'd say to expect it eventually. Yoshi P has shown a desire to have all the popular jobs from XI return, but he's expressed a desire to focus on casters first as XIV is currently lackinging in that area. Personally I'm hoping to see Puppetmaster return; easily my favourite class/job of any MMO ever.
Will Summoners and Bards fill similar roles? I have a friend that will be playing a Summoner, and I was leaning towards a Bard. Will that make finding groups harder since we would both be a support/buffing job? I imagine a group would need a WHM for healing. Is there room in a group to have 2 non-WHM supports as well?
Well the information released so far on Arcanist/Summoner is as follows:
They're intended as a support class/job focusing on buffing and debuffing.
Arcanist has access only to Carbuncle and you can summon different versions for different things (presumably one specifically for soloing).
Summoner will have access to six (from memory) Primal avatars, which are weaker versions of the actual Primals. We still don't know all six for certain, though based on those we know to be in the game it's quite easy to guess they'll be Ifrit, Shiva, Garuda, Titan, Leviathan and Ramuh.
We don't know yet if the player will have to do a quest to obtain each avatar (though I hope they do).
I'm not too familiar with Gems but I think it's relatively safe to say we won't see anything quite as extreme as XI's NM camping. From what I understand NMs are now tied into the F.A.T.E. system.
XI's Beastmaster isn't returning yet though I'd say to expect it eventually. Yoshi P has shown a desire to have all the popular jobs from XI return, but he's expressed a desire to focus on casters first as XIV is currently lackinging in that area. Personally I'm hoping to see Puppetmaster return; easily my favourite class/job of any MMO ever.
Will Summoners and Bards fill similar roles? I have a friend that will be playing a Summoner, and I was leaning towards a Bard. Will that make finding groups harder since we would both be a support/buffing job? I imagine a group would need a WHM for healing. Is there room in a group to have 2 non-WHM supports as well?
I'm not sure of how Bard and Summoner will work together myself. I'm tempted to assume Bard is buff-centric whilst Summoner will be debuff-centric, but we really don't have much info on the Summoner yet. If Bard and Summoner are very similar in their support role then yes I would imagine that will make grouping together difficult... Given that the Arcanist can use different versions of Carbuncle for different roles though I have a feeling the Summoner will have a little versatility to play a DD role instead should they need to.
oh that sounds good, See as much as I dispize the wow/rift style games, being FF game I can overlook it, simply because FFXI was such an amazing game (issues aside), The crafting system looks so good, it will be nice to finally get a good crafting system again. it's quite similar to the Vanguard one I noticed.
I remember Summ in FFXI was very weak till he got into 70s, an then... oh man could easily equal BLM in power.
The Gems for Summ were how you got your pets. You had ot kill NM's from memory, or something like it, an the drop rate was I think about 1%.... it was brutal.
As for the Tamer, hehe would be so good to have him again, we were univerisaly hated by everyone because we were only ones could solo everytihng non NM related. But we were utterly useless in groups, so we got shunned basically.
There was a gem needed for the intial quest to unlock the job but it was from random leech mobs if I recall. Beyond that the other avatars were unlocked by obtaining their crystals by fighting them in special instances (no randomness involved). I dunno if maybe they'd changed it prior to me playing though...
You shouldn't need to worry about jobs being shunned in the way that BST and a few others were in XI though. I don't think we'll ever see classes so useless in group situations again.
I thought you had to grind the gems for each pet in FFXI?... hmm I guess its been longer than I thought. oh well. Yer I didnt actually mind being hated, simply because the BST community all new each other, an we were all on good terms (Nothing worse than having 2 BST in same place at war with each other). Everyone would get killed in the "firefight" to follow lol
I will definatly be going back to my Whym and Summ
Why is there so much hate toward GW2? Are you people seriously comparing it to WoW?
I can't even believe some people are actually calling this system casual. I absolutely welcome the F.A.T.E. system. The questing system in GW2 is something Anet definitely got right. Nobody likes repetitive kill x of y quests. Having interesting randomized events spawn is much more engaging than constantly turning in quests to an NPC with a mark above their head. If anything, that sort of grindy repetitive system is much more casual and reminicent of WoW than Guild Wars 2's dynamic event system.
Originally posted by Magiknight It's another dumb way to lead players around by the nose. That's all you need to know.
Do you have a better suggestion as to how to properly implement quests? An event system definitely would make the experience feel a lot more natural.
I for one don't enjoy chain-talking to npc's and constantly scrolling down just to recieve my reward, and I'd bet most people would agree.
YES! MAKE people EXPLORE. Make quests an optional and mysterious part of the game. Don't let people know what the reward will be ahead of time. Don't show them exactly where they need to go. Make the quests DIFFICULT so that they are about QUALITY and NOT QUANTITY!
YES! MAKE people EXPLORE. Make quests an optional and mysterious part of the game. Don't let people know what the reward will be ahead of time. Don't show them exactly where they need to go. Make the quests DIFFICULT so that they are about QUALITY and NOT QUANTITY!
I agree in theory. In practice its a bit problematic. People get bored of quests they cant find / complete / understand. Some will just ZAM the solution. There is no mystery anymore if the game is at least fairly popular. Even i google sometimes when im stuck for a bit and then you know how it is when you start. (DAMN YOU, INTERNET) So unfortunately the devs will be reluctant to spent the extra time to design quests like that because some will not like them and others will solve them as easily as any other quest.
Sadly, im not sure even i'd like them that much. And i played games like Ultima Online in my day, alot.
Maybe its part laziness and years of playing games. Maybe its just that the non-easymode-quests in most games simply arent interesting enough. (EQ2 and Secret World comes to mind as games that had quests without a ready solution) It was an interesting change for a while but not for too long. It got kinda tedious to get through all the trouble just to get a bunch of gold. A game would have to sport great writing, great quest designers and some interesting rewards to have viable quests that wont make most people just google them.
But i think alot of it is due to the nature of the community nowadays. It kinda makes you feel that you need to rush to the max level as quickly as possible. Thats one of the reasons why i like to solo alot of the content of MMOs. Its impossible to find someone that'll go at the same /slow/ pace as you. More often than not, i like the "game" more than the "endgame". There are other considerations (especially in games with low population servers) like the economy. As a crafter you cant sell your stuff if youre level 25 and most people are already maxed.
Hopefully ARR leveling will be interesting enough and i wont succumb to peer-pressure of leveling as fast as possible
I just don't comprehend how people playing an RPG would rather grind on thousands of crabs to progress their character than reading quests pertaining to the world and lore of the game while completing the tasks set forth in them.
Originally posted by nbtscan I just don't comprehend how people playing an RPG would rather grind on thousands of crabs to progress their character than reading quests pertaining to the world and lore of the game while completing the tasks set forth in them.
I do. Alot of them are not actually RPG players. I imagine that great many of MMO players today dont play singleplayer RPGs (let alone pen and paper). For them its a different kind of game than it is for you and me. I'd love to see a statistic of some MMO exploring how long people read each quest assigmnent, ie. how many are just checking the task and how many actually read the story behind it. I'd guess 90%+ doesnt actually read most quests.
Originally posted by nbtscan I just don't comprehend how people playing an RPG would rather grind on thousands of crabs to progress their character than reading quests pertaining to the world and lore of the game while completing the tasks set forth in them.
When quests are streamlined the dialogue turns to crap and then the lore turns to crap. Again, I'm about quality, not quanitity.
MMOs were always about freedom of play before the wow generation of games destoryed them. Now days without quests the young ones wont play. it's a shame because while the days of FFXI an standing in dunes for 5 hours looking for a group were hell, the games were better.
Now days with questing its all about how fast you can level, an if you cant max out in a under 24 hours, they get shirty.
MMOs were always about freedom of play before the wow generation of games destoryed them. Now days without quests the young ones wont play. it's a shame because while the days of FFXI an standing in dunes for 5 hours looking for a group were hell, the games were better.
Now days with questing its all about how fast you can level, an if you cant max out in a under 24 hours, they get shirty.
Well, im an old gamer, my first MMO was UO and i played it for a few years. But my glasses arent nearly as rose colored.
Youre still free to play without questing, you can grind it out if you like. Will you? I know i wont. Its boring as hell. And i tried UO and EQ1 recently after many years. Its the same. Boring. So i think that while games have changed, we did even more.
The first online games were awesome because it was something completely new. It was amazing just thinking about it, the ability to play with actual people in whole virtual worlds. It was like out of a scifi. Today its common. And while new games might not have some of the features of the old games, old games didnt have many good features that are common today. Basically most of the things that made the games amazing back then are so common today that we dont even think about them.
Im interested to see how well will Archeage do, which seems to be closer to the sandbox UO was than most MMOs today. But i have a feeling it wont be that hot. It was possible to create a great sandbox game in 1997 when the expectations were much lower and the technology was much simpler. Today its really ambitious and difficult to do it right. (see Mortal, which does not).
Not only that but because simply the ability to play a MMO with real people does not have the wow effect (pun not intended) that it did 15 years ago, new games need much more to keep people entertained than the ones before.
tl:dr
Old MMOs today arent as fun as people nostalgically think. Not anymore.
Also, its much more difficult than before to impress people and make a great MMO.
MMOs were always about freedom of play before the wow generation of games destoryed them. Now days without quests the young ones wont play. it's a shame because while the days of FFXI an standing in dunes for 5 hours looking for a group were hell, the games were better.
Now days with questing its all about how fast you can level, an if you cant max out in a under 24 hours, they get shirty.
Well, im an old gamer, my first MMO was UO and i played it for a few years. But my glasses arent nearly as rose colored.
Youre still free to play without questing, you can grind it out if you like. Will you? I know i wont. Its boring as hell. And i tried UO and EQ1 recently after many years. Its the same. Boring. So i think that while games have changed, we did even more.
The first online games were awesome because it was something completely new. It was amazing just thinking about it, the ability to play with actual people in whole virtual worlds. It was like out of a scifi. Today its common. And while new games might not have some of the features of the old games, old games didnt have many good features that are common today. Basically most of the things that made the games amazing back then are so common today that we dont even think about them.
Im interested to see how well will Archeage do, which seems to be closer to the sandbox UO was than most MMOs today. But i have a feeling it wont be that hot. It was possible to create a great sandbox game in 1997 when the expectations were much lower and the technology was much simpler. Today its really ambitious and difficult to do it right. (see Mortal, which does not).
Not only that but because simply the ability to play a MMO with real people does not have the wow effect (pun not intended) that it did 15 years ago, new games need much more to keep people entertained than the ones before.
tl:dr
Old MMOs today arent as fun as people nostalgically think. Not anymore.
Also, its much more difficult than before to impress people and make a great MMO.
Main quests aside, personally I'll be leveling in dungeons and guildhests as I don't like to solo quest grind. To me this is actually a better system then open world mob grinding (solo or party). And this comes from a huge fan of FFXI and big advocate of the introduction of xp chains and other changes to 1.0 that made mob grinding there possible (xp chains/linking returns in ARR).
Dungeon partying is also stated by Yoshi to be faster. than solo quest grinding. He said "You could just run dungeons back to back and this would be the fastest, but maybe not the best way to level".
This way also I can save a lot of subquests for jobs down the road I am less interested in and just want to get over.
Granted at launch I will have everything capped but summoner, but they plan to (and better!) introduce many more classes/jobs downt he road.
Comments
I'm a little late on the reply, but Tabula Rasa is where I first noticed these types of dynamic events. Warhammer had more variety in the PQs though and popularized the concept.
Will Summoners and Bards fill similar roles? I have a friend that will be playing a Summoner, and I was leaning towards a Bard. Will that make finding groups harder since we would both be a support/buffing job? I imagine a group would need a WHM for healing. Is there room in a group to have 2 non-WHM supports as well?
I'm not sure of how Bard and Summoner will work together myself. I'm tempted to assume Bard is buff-centric whilst Summoner will be debuff-centric, but we really don't have much info on the Summoner yet. If Bard and Summoner are very similar in their support role then yes I would imagine that will make grouping together difficult... Given that the Arcanist can use different versions of Carbuncle for different roles though I have a feeling the Summoner will have a little versatility to play a DD role instead should they need to.
We'll just have to wait and see...
I thought you had to grind the gems for each pet in FFXI?... hmm I guess its been longer than I thought. oh well. Yer I didnt actually mind being hated, simply because the BST community all new each other, an we were all on good terms (Nothing worse than having 2 BST in same place at war with each other). Everyone would get killed in the "firefight" to follow lol
I will definatly be going back to my Whym and Summ
Why is there so much hate toward GW2? Are you people seriously comparing it to WoW?
I can't even believe some people are actually calling this system casual. I absolutely welcome the F.A.T.E. system. The questing system in GW2 is something Anet definitely got right. Nobody likes repetitive kill x of y quests. Having interesting randomized events spawn is much more engaging than constantly turning in quests to an NPC with a mark above their head. If anything, that sort of grindy repetitive system is much more casual and reminicent of WoW than Guild Wars 2's dynamic event system.
Do you have a better suggestion as to how to properly implement quests? An event system definitely would make the experience feel a lot more natural.
I for one don't enjoy chain-talking to npc's and constantly scrolling down just to recieve my reward, and I'd bet most people would agree.
YES! MAKE people EXPLORE. Make quests an optional and mysterious part of the game. Don't let people know what the reward will be ahead of time. Don't show them exactly where they need to go. Make the quests DIFFICULT so that they are about QUALITY and NOT QUANTITY!
I agree in theory. In practice its a bit problematic. People get bored of quests they cant find / complete / understand. Some will just ZAM the solution. There is no mystery anymore if the game is at least fairly popular. Even i google sometimes when im stuck for a bit and then you know how it is when you start. (DAMN YOU, INTERNET) So unfortunately the devs will be reluctant to spent the extra time to design quests like that because some will not like them and others will solve them as easily as any other quest.
Sadly, im not sure even i'd like them that much. And i played games like Ultima Online in my day, alot.
Maybe its part laziness and years of playing games. Maybe its just that the non-easymode-quests in most games simply arent interesting enough. (EQ2 and Secret World comes to mind as games that had quests without a ready solution) It was an interesting change for a while but not for too long. It got kinda tedious to get through all the trouble just to get a bunch of gold. A game would have to sport great writing, great quest designers and some interesting rewards to have viable quests that wont make most people just google them.
But i think alot of it is due to the nature of the community nowadays. It kinda makes you feel that you need to rush to the max level as quickly as possible. Thats one of the reasons why i like to solo alot of the content of MMOs. Its impossible to find someone that'll go at the same /slow/ pace as you. More often than not, i like the "game" more than the "endgame". There are other considerations (especially in games with low population servers) like the economy. As a crafter you cant sell your stuff if youre level 25 and most people are already maxed.
Hopefully ARR leveling will be interesting enough and i wont succumb to peer-pressure of leveling as fast as possible
I do. Alot of them are not actually RPG players. I imagine that great many of MMO players today dont play singleplayer RPGs (let alone pen and paper). For them its a different kind of game than it is for you and me. I'd love to see a statistic of some MMO exploring how long people read each quest assigmnent, ie. how many are just checking the task and how many actually read the story behind it. I'd guess 90%+ doesnt actually read most quests.
When quests are streamlined the dialogue turns to crap and then the lore turns to crap. Again, I'm about quality, not quanitity.
MMOs were always about freedom of play before the wow generation of games destoryed them. Now days without quests the young ones wont play. it's a shame because while the days of FFXI an standing in dunes for 5 hours looking for a group were hell, the games were better.
Now days with questing its all about how fast you can level, an if you cant max out in a under 24 hours, they get shirty.
Well, im an old gamer, my first MMO was UO and i played it for a few years. But my glasses arent nearly as rose colored.
Youre still free to play without questing, you can grind it out if you like. Will you? I know i wont. Its boring as hell. And i tried UO and EQ1 recently after many years. Its the same. Boring. So i think that while games have changed, we did even more.
The first online games were awesome because it was something completely new. It was amazing just thinking about it, the ability to play with actual people in whole virtual worlds. It was like out of a scifi. Today its common. And while new games might not have some of the features of the old games, old games didnt have many good features that are common today. Basically most of the things that made the games amazing back then are so common today that we dont even think about them.
Im interested to see how well will Archeage do, which seems to be closer to the sandbox UO was than most MMOs today. But i have a feeling it wont be that hot. It was possible to create a great sandbox game in 1997 when the expectations were much lower and the technology was much simpler. Today its really ambitious and difficult to do it right. (see Mortal, which does not).
Not only that but because simply the ability to play a MMO with real people does not have the wow effect (pun not intended) that it did 15 years ago, new games need much more to keep people entertained than the ones before.
tl:dr
Old MMOs today arent as fun as people nostalgically think. Not anymore.
Also, its much more difficult than before to impress people and make a great MMO.
Main quests aside, personally I'll be leveling in dungeons and guildhests as I don't like to solo quest grind. To me this is actually a better system then open world mob grinding (solo or party). And this comes from a huge fan of FFXI and big advocate of the introduction of xp chains and other changes to 1.0 that made mob grinding there possible (xp chains/linking returns in ARR).
Dungeon partying is also stated by Yoshi to be faster. than solo quest grinding. He said "You could just run dungeons back to back and this would be the fastest, but maybe not the best way to level".
This way also I can save a lot of subquests for jobs down the road I am less interested in and just want to get over.
Granted at launch I will have everything capped but summoner, but they plan to (and better!) introduce many more classes/jobs downt he road.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan