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"Leveling ties us to the world MORE THAN ANYTHING"

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  • NikopolNikopol Member UncommonPosts: 626

    It's ultimately the content that keeps players playing. Even when you're playing for "other players", you're actually playing for the content they're creating or maybe "the content they are".

    The thing is, on average, players don't make good content. Sure, when you get to pick and choose (like foundry quests and player-made realms on multiplayer games that let you get creative), you can find really amazing stuff, but let's face it, on average players are just bad at making content and being content.

    And keep in mind: Content also includes art, sound and music.

    EVE Online. I love it. Had they done a bad job at building that universe, or had they even done a bad job with their art, it'd have below 100K players (yeah, this is my speculation and pulling numbers out of the posterior day). No matter how good the systems are and how complicated player relations are.

     

  • azmundaiazmundai Member UncommonPosts: 1,419


    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Xobdnas Thats just sad on many levels. As mmo deve they HAVE to know thats bs. Lvling is the annoying thing we do before we get to what we play mmos for, making an impact on the game world and making our characters unique.
    What's sad is that millions of you consider it annoying, yet you still pay the company monthly to do it.

     



    Leveling the first time isnt the problem. The problem is that the leveling section of the game is most of the game. When you have leveled your first character, then what? Is this a console game or an MMO? As always .. i wouldn't give a rats ass about any of this, if it wasn't for the fact that every MMO has become like this and departed greatly from what was a more sustained, group oriented form of enjoyment. To make matters worse they have made it so brain dead easy and fast that they really do play more like Legend of Zelda than EQ, UO, etc. Don't get me wrong, I loved Legend of Zelda, Ultima, etc .. right up until the time that I started playing games where I needed to interact with other people. That other dimension is what brought me into the genre, the lack of it is what is pushing me away.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Member Posts: 1,832

    It's a bit depressing to see how most MMO's are so singularly focused on only one aspect of the things that people enjoy in games - progression. Not that there is anything particularly wrong with progression but there are ALOT of other things that people enjoy in gaming (in general) aside from progression....

    There is exploration, problem solving, socialization (in various forms), competition, narrative, creativity, etc.

    Most MMO's seem to have pretty much defaulted on trying to address any of the above and seem almost entirely focused on progression. I find that rather sad and narrow-minded. Even many people that enjoy progression have a much wider range of interests then simply that.

     

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,854
    Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

    It's a bit depressing to see how most MMO's are so singularly focused on only one aspect of the things that people enjoy in games - progression. Not that there is anything particularly wrong with progression but there are ALOT of other things that people enjoy in gaming (in general) aside from progression....

    There is exploration, problem solving, socialization (in various forms), competition, narrative, creativity, etc.

    Most MMO's seem to have pretty much defaulted on trying to address any of the above and seem almost entirely focused on progression. I find that rather sad and narrow-minded. Even many people that enjoy progression have a much wider range of interests then simply that.

     

    I agree, while progression is very important, in fact I think it is a definining characteristic of a MMORPG, it is not the only thing that matters. 

    Reason being, one day the progression slows down or comes to a halt, and then player interest will start to wane unless there are other engaging activities to keep them entertained.

    That's why a title like EVE is brilliant, the progression for a single character is almost limitless, even though I ran 3 accounts for almost 5 years, there are still dozens of ships I never could fly, items that I can't craft, places I can't go. 

    Many other titles suffer once the content /progression come to a close, with players deciding to move on.

     

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  • GrumiumGrumium Member UncommonPosts: 57

    I don't play mmo's to level up. When I first started playing MMO's I did not really know what they were as I started playing Ultima Online when it first came out. 

    I was admittedly lost when I first came into the game. Back then there were counselors that helped you out if you needed to ask a question. I pushed help and one appeared to help me. I started to ask them questions because I did not know what was going on in the game. I asked, "What do you do in this game?". The counselor replied, "Really anything you want."  They went into alot of explaination on what I could do from being a fisherman, cook, warrior, mage, treasure hunter, etc. I told the counselor I wanted to smith. He then proceeded to show me how to mine and then smith so I could make items.

    I started to mine and smelt ingots and talk to people. I met a few people in game, and we would go out, mine together, and just chat together. It did not feel like I was leveling as we were playing the game together in a group.

    One person I played with talked me into making a warrior character so we could go to dungeons and play together. I ended up making a warrior character and joining a guild. We would all go to dungeon's for protection because if you would go alone you might get pked. It was alot of fun knowing that at any moment a pk could come and you could loose your stuff. Yes loosing your stuff sucked, but you could replace it rather easily.

    I have many fond memories of PLAYING THE GAME WITH OTHERS OVER WORRYING ABOUT LEVELING MY CHARACTER. If you wanted to go explore you would grab a friend because it was always safer in numbers going out to do things. If you do not have someone to play the game with and talk to then its just not an MMO. It is a single player game with other people in the world doing their own thing.

    When I was out playing with other people it was the best time I had in any mmo.  You could go out with a group of players and not really be that good because they would help you out if you needed help fighting something. There was not levels per say to worry about. You could go out with help from others and go pretty much anywhere.

    Then Trammel came and dumbed down the game, and everyone wanted to do their own thing because there was really no worries about dieing any longer so really no one wanted to play the game together any longer. To me it just ruined the game. I play MMO's to play with other people and if I wanted to play a game by myself I would just play a consol game.

    Sorry leveling up was never a major concern for me and did not tie me into the world really at all. Thats the problem with MMO's right now. People are to worried about themselves, leveling up their character, and getting the stuff done that they want to do. They do all this stuff with relatively no help from anyone becasue MMO's now are easy. Ohh do this quest, run to this location run back snooze....  Bang head on keyboard.... wake up.....  ohh a 5 year old could do this. Boring.

    Even everquest was hard without pk's that could kill you or take your stuff. Has anyone here had a team kill in a major dungeon and wondered how the hell you were going to get your stuff back. Naked running into the dungeon to try to get it back really sucked. That was adventure that was excitement. You played your best because you knew if you screwed up then it was likely that you could get a party wipe and have to try to recover your stuff.

    The older MMO's were more focused on playing together, or we did that because the games were really tough to solo by yourself.  Thats what kept me in the game. Meeting players so I could get help or help them because you almost had to group. Playing the game with others made the game fun.  Its what tied me to the world more then anything....  

  • GGrimmGGrimm Member Posts: 49
    The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
  • KushkutKushkut Member Posts: 8
    Originally posted by Grumium

    I don't play mmo's to level up. When I first started playing MMO's I did not really know what they were as I started playing Ultima Online when it first came out. 

    I was admittedly lost when I first came into the game. Back then there were counselors that helped you out if you needed to ask a question. I pushed help and one appeared to help me. I started to ask them questions because I did not know what was going on in the game. I asked, "What do you do in this game?". The counselor replied, "Really anything you want."  They went into alot of explaination on what I could do from being a fisherman, cook, warrior, mage, treasure hunter, etc. I told the counselor I wanted to smith. He then proceeded to show me how to mine and then smith so I could make items.

    I started to mine and smelt ingots and talk to people. I met a few people in game, and we would go out, mine together, and just chat together. It did not feel like I was leveling as we were playing the game together in a group.

    One person I played with talked me into making a warrior character so we could go to dungeons and play together. I ended up making a warrior character and joining a guild. We would all go to dungeon's for protection because if you would go alone you might get pked. It was alot of fun knowing that at any moment a pk could come and you could loose your stuff. Yes loosing your stuff sucked, but you could replace it rather easily.

    I have many fond memories of PLAYING THE GAME WITH OTHERS OVER WORRYING ABOUT LEVELING MY CHARACTER. If you wanted to go explore you would grab a friend because it was always safer in numbers going out to do things. If you do not have someone to play the game with and talk to then its just not an MMO. It is a single player game with other people in the world doing their own thing.

    When I was out playing with other people it was the best time I had in any mmo.  You could go out with a group of players and not really be that good because they would help you out if you needed help fighting something. There was not levels per say to worry about. You could go out with help from others and go pretty much anywhere.

    Then Trammel came and dumbed down the game, and everyone wanted to do their own thing because there was really no worries about dieing any longer so really no one wanted to play the game together any longer. To me it just ruined the game. I play MMO's to play with other people and if I wanted to play a game by myself I would just play a consol game.

    Sorry leveling up was never a major concern for me and did not tie me into the world really at all. Thats the problem with MMO's right now. People are to worried about themselves, leveling up their character, and getting the stuff done that they want to do. They do all this stuff with relatively no help from anyone becasue MMO's now are easy. Ohh do this quest, run to this location run back snooze....  Bang head on keyboard.... wake up.....  ohh a 5 year old could do this. Boring.

    Even everquest was hard without pk's that could kill you or take your stuff. Has anyone here had a team kill in a major dungeon and wondered how the hell you were going to get your stuff back. Naked running into the dungeon to try to get it back really sucked. That was adventure that was excitement. You played your best because you knew if you screwed up then it was likely that you could get a party wipe and have to try to recover your stuff.

    The older MMO's were more focused on playing together, or we did that because the games were really tough to solo by yourself.  Thats what kept me in the game. Meeting players so I could get help or help them because you almost had to group. Playing the game with others made the game fun.  Its what tied me to the world more then anything....  

    Could not have put it better myself, thanks for bringing up good memories.

    Now I do realize that the days of games such as Ultima Online are far behind (in their true form, Pre-Trammel times) because simply the genre is not hard-core enough for that. But once again, it seems to be either this or that and nowhere in between.

    Just because a lot of games are what they are and people don't know better (because most people including myself do not have a very good imagination) does not mean that there aren't better forms of progression than leveling. And progression could be fun (and even funnier for those people who think the current norm is fun, lol).

    GGrim said it well too, the status quo has to be challenged or the genre will stay the same and eventually these 300 USD Million games will stop coming out because they only get 2 million subscribers to play for a month or two.

    And to be honest, the games I am looking forward to this year such as ArcheAge, Black Deserts Online, EQNext, Age of Wushu etc will most likely bore the shit out of people after a while when the game feels like you have already played it "through" (you shouldn't be able to play an MMORPG "through" IMO) so many times before.

     

    I bet game publishers are thinking that this genre is dying and people are not interested in MMORPGS, well why don't you make an interesting MMORPG that isn't the same as the last one that failed miserably?

     

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,559
    Originally posted by GGrimm
    The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

    I submit that any progress is leveling.

    How would you have progression without some kind of level?

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by GGrimm
    The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

    I submit that any progress is leveling.

    How would you have progression without some kind of level?

     I agree.  Unless he really is going to say zero progression then you end up with  a very limited RPG.

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  • hammarushammarus Member UncommonPosts: 196
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by GGrimm
    The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

    I submit that any progress is leveling.

    How would you have progression without some kind of level?

    There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,559
    Originally posted by hammarus
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by GGrimm
    The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

    I submit that any progress is leveling.

    How would you have progression without some kind of level?

    There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

    I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

    Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling.  I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.

    I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level.  The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore. 

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • DihoruDihoru Member Posts: 2,731
    Originally posted by hammarus
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by GGrimm
    The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

    I submit that any progress is leveling.

    How would you have progression without some kind of level?

    There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

    And then there's progression where it's you learning the game and it being built in such a way as to take it easy on you while you're still learning, such a progression system could have absolutely no levels and progression to be completely freeform (it could be story based, exploration based, crafting based, crafting in such a system would be all about experimenting to get the best items or the best possible not leveling a arbitrary level skill to unlock pwnboots of +50, etc).

     

    The notion that progression = leveling is fundamentally flawed, leveling is just the simplest most rudimentary form of progression, progression is in itself evolution, the most obvious way to quantify evolution is with numbers but being obvious does not mean being good. The only reason people equate leveling with progression in RPG is because the original PC RPGs were at least inspired by D&D which used leveling as a metric for character progression but in D&D you can excuse this because it was already relatively hard to quantify leveling, if you added in a freeform evolution of character it would've made DMing damn near impossible but here's the thing we're not limited to Pen and Paper here, this is a medium where freeform evolution of a character is not only possible but would also be a massive improvement.

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,773
    Originally posted by hammarus
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by GGrimm
    The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

    I submit that any progress is leveling.

    How would you have progression without some kind of level?

    There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

    It is just semantic.

    Call it a weapon "level", and when you get to level 3, you can use "X" weapon. THere .. it is a level.

    More than one game has multiple types of levels (and call them so).

  • hammarushammarus Member UncommonPosts: 196
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by hammarus
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by GGrimm
    The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

    I submit that any progress is leveling.

    How would you have progression without some kind of level?

    There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

    I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

    Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling.  I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.

    I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level.  The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore. 

    I'm doing neither.  Just suggesting that its not cut and dried, by pointing out that the measurement system is and can be varied.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,559
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by hammarus
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by GGrimm
    The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

    I submit that any progress is leveling.

    How would you have progression without some kind of level?

    There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

    And then there's progression where it's you learning the game and it being built in such a way as to take it easy on you while you're still learning, such a progression system could have absolutely no levels and progression to be completely freeform (it could be story based, exploration based, crafting based, crafting in such a system would be all about experimenting to get the best items or the best possible not leveling a arbitrary level skill to unlock pwnboots of +50, etc).

     

    The notion that progression = leveling is fundamentally flawed, leveling is just the simplest most rudimentary form of progression, progression is in itself evolution, the most obvious way to quantify evolution is with numbers but being obvious does not mean being good. The only reason people equate leveling with progression in RPG is because the original PC RPGs were at least inspired by D&D which used leveling as a metric for character progression but in D&D you can excuse this because it was already relatively hard to quantify leveling, if you added in a freeform evolution of character it would've made DMing damn near impossible but here's the thing we're not limited to Pen and Paper here, this is a medium where freeform evolution of a character is not only possible but would also be a massive improvement.

    I would say that everything you just described is a level, not called a level, but is arguably the same thing. 

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,559
    Originally posted by hammarus
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by hammarus
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by GGrimm
    The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

    I submit that any progress is leveling.

    How would you have progression without some kind of level?

    There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

    I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

    Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling.  I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.

    I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level.  The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore. 

    I'm doing neither.  Just suggesting that its not cut and dried, by pointing out that the measurement system is and can be varied.

    Maybe that is a  good explaination, I kind of like it.

    If there is a measurement system of any kind there is a level. 

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,293

    Why do gear based MMOs add levels with Xpacs? So you have to pay them a bit longer to lvl up more. That also makes your old leet gear you spent ages getting worthless. Now you have to grind for more leet gear. Wheel, Stick, Carrot. That is why LVLs of that type exist, to keep the marks playing and paying.

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  • Yyrkoon_PoMYyrkoon_PoM Member Posts: 150

    The concept of levels and leveling up was introduced what, almost 40 years ago.  Levels have always signified becomming more powerful by acquiring more abilities, spells, or stats as you pass experience point thresholds by finishing tasks set forth by the Game Master.  The concept is not new nor does it only appear in MMOs.

    Like others have previously, experiences, companions, friends (new and old), ties us to the game world much stronger than anything else.  How many of us have left a game because our firends stopped playing or our guildmates left, or our game expeirence is no longer fun? I bet this number is much higher than the number of people who quit because they changed a rule, made xp easier or harder, ....

  • hammarushammarus Member UncommonPosts: 196
    Originally posted by Yyrkoon_PoM

    The concept of levels and leveling up was introduced what, almost 40 years ago.  Levels have always signified becomming more powerful by acquiring more abilities, spells, or stats as you pass experience point thresholds by finishing tasks set forth by the Game Master.  The concept is not new nor does it only appear in MMOs.

    Like others have previously, experiences, companions, friends (new and old), ties us to the game world much stronger than anything else.  How many of us have left a game because our firends stopped playing or our guildmates left, or our game expeirence is no longer fun? I bet this number is much higher than the number of people who quit because they changed a rule, made xp easier or harder, ....

    Leveling was introduced with the birth of Mankind.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,559
    Originally posted by Yyrkoon_PoM

    The concept of levels and leveling up was introduced what, almost 40 years ago.  Levels have always signified becomming more powerful by acquiring more abilities, spells, or stats as you pass experience point thresholds by finishing tasks set forth by the Game Master.  The concept is not new nor does it only appear in MMOs.

    Like others have previously, experiences, companions, friends (new and old), ties us to the game world much stronger than anything else.  How many of us have left a game because our firends stopped playing or our guildmates left, or our game expeirence is no longer fun? I bet this number is much higher than the number of people who quit because they changed a rule, made xp easier or harder, ....

    I think I'll change my stance.  While I do think progression is very very important in MMO's and does make you feel more connected to your character.  It is what you do to gain those levels that can make you feel more connected to the actual world. 

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • GGrimmGGrimm Member Posts: 49
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by hammarus
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by GGrimm
    The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

    I submit that any progress is leveling.

    How would you have progression without some kind of level?

    There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

    I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

    Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling.  I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.

    I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level.  The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore. 

    You seem to be missing my point by pursuing a semantics discussion. To be clear, what I mean by Leveling is the gameplay common to just about every MMO. Level 1 -> earn experience -> DING Level 2. As you have said, there other ways to progress beyond this paradigm. That is the Leveling paradigm / assumption that should be challenged.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,559
    Originally posted by GGrimm
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by hammarus
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by GGrimm
    The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.

    I submit that any progress is leveling.

    How would you have progression without some kind of level?

    There are many forms of leveling.  There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.

    I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

    Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling.  I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.

    I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level.  The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore. 

    You seem to be missing my point by pursuing a semantics discussion. To be clear, what I mean by Leveling is the gameplay common to just about every MMO. Level 1 -> earn experience -> DING Level 2. As you have said, there other ways to progress beyond this paradigm. That is the Leveling paradigm / assumption that should be challenged.

    Class type levels, absolutely.  But the OP brought up UO which had a different level system.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Member CommonPosts: 1,538
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    Why do gear based MMOs add levels with Xpacs? So you have to pay them a bit longer to lvl up more. That also makes your old leet gear you spent ages getting worthless. Now you have to grind for more leet gear. Wheel, Stick, Carrot. That is why LVLs of that type exist, to keep the marks playing and paying.

    No, this is NOT why levels existed.

     

    Do people seriously think this way?  maybe do a little reflection on the origins of the genre.

     

    Did levels exist in dungeons and dragons so people would play it longer?  

     

     

  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,293


    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Xobdnas Why do gear based MMOs add levels with Xpacs? So you have to pay them a bit longer to lvl up more. That also makes your old leet gear you spent ages getting worthless. Now you have to grind for more leet gear. Wheel, Stick, Carrot. That is why LVLs of that type exist, to keep the marks playing and paying.
    No, this is NOT why levels existed.

     

    Do people seriously think this way?  maybe do a little reflection on the origins of the genre.

     

    Did levels exist in dungeons and dragons so people would play it longer?  

     

     


    I'm not talking about what they were. A kinds of stuff in the universe was something else as one point or another. But here and now, this is what MMORPG lvls have become.

    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Member CommonPosts: 1,538
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

     


    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    Originally posted by Xobdnas Why do gear based MMOs add levels with Xpacs? So you have to pay them a bit longer to lvl up more. That also makes your old leet gear you spent ages getting worthless. Now you have to grind for more leet gear. Wheel, Stick, Carrot. That is why LVLs of that type exist, to keep the marks playing and paying.
    No, this is NOT why levels existed.

     

     

    Do people seriously think this way?  maybe do a little reflection on the origins of the genre.

     

    Did levels exist in dungeons and dragons so people would play it longer?  

     

     


     

    I'm not talking about what they were. A kinds of stuff in the universe was something else as one point or another. But here and now, this is what MMORPG lvls have become.

    so you are saying MMOs add levels, which in the average MMO takes a player 2 days to a week, just to increase longevity?

    You could *easily* do a gear reset without leveling, some games do it every patch.

    Levels exist because people like progression, plain and simple.  With new levels come new abilities, new builds,m and a power increase beyond simply gear.

    Yes, you could do this without leveling but its still progression just the same.  And people like progression.

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