This game has been in development for over a decade now. I expected it to be vaporware for its entire life, but apparently they're actually bothering to try and make it. Honestly, I don';t see this is working, as they haven't thought things through far enough. 100 lives? PvP doesn't require flagging? I see people rushing to get high levels in their skills, and then sitting in the lowbie areas griefing the new players who can't compete with them until they perma-kill them, then sitting on the forums, laughing at the QQ about how no one can join the game because of the griefing in the starting areas. Recipe for commercial failure.
*grabs popcorn*
So, let's get on with this disaster flick.
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Smintar As I understand it and my thinking is that this one would be a good one for Gankers!
Have you ever played a game where your actions had impact on the world? If yes name one.
This game has been in development for over a decade now. I expected it to be vaporware for its entire life, but apparently they're actually bothering to try and make it. Honestly, I don';t see this is working, as they haven't thought things through far enough. 100 lives? PvP doesn't require flagging? I see people rushing to get high levels in their skills, and then sitting in the lowbie areas griefing the new players who can't compete with them until they perma-kill them, then sitting on the forums, laughing at the QQ about how no one can join the game because of the griefing in the starting areas. Recipe for commercial failure.
Except that there are no lowbie areas judging by what little I've read about this game today. It is not the typical "low levels hang out here, highs over there" at all. It seems to me that it's a world ran by people making their own communities and villages and whatnot. And you can't just see what level other people are. Way to comment without knowing anything.
Personally I am so happy I found this today. Really looks like my kind of game.
This game has been in development for over a decade now. I expected it to be vaporware for its entire life, but apparently they're actually bothering to try and make it. Honestly, I don';t see this is working, as they haven't thought things through far enough. 100 lives? PvP doesn't require flagging? I see people rushing to get high levels in their skills, and then sitting in the lowbie areas griefing the new players who can't compete with them until they perma-kill them, then sitting on the forums, laughing at the QQ about how no one can join the game because of the griefing in the starting areas. Recipe for commercial failure.
*grabs popcorn*
So, let's get on with this disaster flick.
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Smintar As I understand it and my thinking is that this one would be a good one for Gankers!
Have you ever played a game where your actions had impact on the world? If yes name one.
Read my above.
Noob systems in EVE are protected from ganks, everywhere else is free game, I'd imagine they'd have some way of protecting noob players from such things, I mean they are sandbox devs after all.
I dont live in my parents basement anymore to the point I can play a game from 5pm Friday night until 9pm Sunday night non stop. I am lucky to get 5 to 10 hours a week to play and if I am going to get a perma death and loose hundreds of hours worth of work I am not going to play that game.
So you also don't watch movies anymore, because they inevitably "end", and that would be a waste of 2 hours watching time? Or read books, because they also have an ending? Never play chess?
Nearly every game that was ever conceived by humans has an ending. Chess, Go, Checkers, Super Mario, Soccer, Baseball... How come you view it as a "loss of time" when your character dies? Isn't it the experience that counts, the gameplay itself? And doesn't it open up the doors to try something new, a new character, a new experience altogether?
There's this mentality of viewing MMO's and their characters as "work" it seems, and PD threatens for you to "lose" this work and time you put in. This is a twisted way to look at things though, probably brought on to us by all the level grind MMO's where you could only have an impact on the game if you had the highest level, the best gear, etc.
Wake up guys, it's still a GAME, not WORK. So what if it has a defined ending? Start over, and play again! ToA doesn't have a level grind, and you don't need to spend hours and hours to make a real impact on other players or settlements.
Think of all the benefits of PD that most people already tried to point out... a decent economy sink, a character sink, no stale status-quo's between the most powerful characters/guilds, an actual beginning, mid-point and ending to your own personal story, more attachment to your character, etc.
Let me ask you one last question: why do you spend time with your family? They are going to permadie at some point, so isn't it a waste of time?
I'm sorry, I'm also 30+ myself and I know what you're saying about having less time to play games and all, but to think of it as a waste of time just because your character can permadie on you is an utterly wrong perspective imo. In fact, I just started playing D3 again in hardcore mode, where even lag or a computer crash can wipe out your character. I still do it. Why? Because it's 100x more enjoyable and exciting than playing a game where death has no consequences.
If you read up on the features of the game, like settlements, you'll see that this not only is very difficult to do but something not entirely desired. Sure they can assemble a team of people and maurader around and see who they can find but do you realize how difficult it will be to find someone? There are no floating names above peoples heads AND you can wear clothing that will help you blend into your surroundings so good luck on that!
Furthermore, there is no radar or any kind of GPS in the game so if you think you can go out on a rampage and kill as many people as possible, you will more than likely end up getting yourselves lost and possibly killed.
And when night-time comes and you're out in the middle of nowhere, you can say 'bye-bye' to your butt because there ain't no way you're finding your way back!
Have you ever played a game that does not have a map? I have, it takes only a day or two to get the lay of the land down for lets say..what in many games would be considered a "zone" now given a week you can learn a massive amount of area in a game so finding your way around is not a problem at all. Also players will make maps online and post them. This isnt 1995 when games didnt have have tons of player made websites. (again I will use minecraft as a very basic example. The server I play on has a huge world, but I can find anyone's home simply based on looking at the various landscapes)
To the seasoned pvp/greifer they know where to look and find people doing the various tasks that this game will require. (mining, hunting, logging, etc.. Its simply a matter of laying in wait or just getting a large group (guild) and roaming around. The world wont be dangerous to them at all if they have a well orginized group of players which typically happens as guilds grow in power on games with pvp.
Im really not trying to bash the game by anymeans. Infact save perma death this game would be exactly what I have been looking for for a VERY long time.
This game could be a gem if it attracts more good alligned people then immature or hostile alligned players. This was UOs charm, the playerbase was mostly good folks enjoying the game and helping each other out, great ingame friendships were made and playing was fun with the danger element.
However perma-death in a pk'er type game is not for me, Ive seen it in UO, Darkfall and other similar pvp platforms where folk will use hacks and cheats to gain an edge, and the thought of it being possible to grief another into losing many of the pre-perma death counts in this way does not sound like fun.
I suspect the fact that you can't determine other peoples ability, or "level" so to speak, would make someone more hesitant to attack anyone they see. Hmm.. It seems that permadeath would also automatically mean less PvP going on. Perhaps more people would see that ToA means to be a more cooperative game rather than something like Darkfall. It would certainly be easier and safer to work together. Interesting stuff to think about.
Nice site, seems to me the writer is incredibly naive to say the least. The thought that his gamemasters can control the cheaters is hilarious.
I wish them luck, would love to find a good sandbox like this without the permadeath. Once your character gets around 90 deaths your gameplay will become incredibly risk adverse, now tell me how much fun that will be.
Thanks, I made it. The text you read are developer quotes.
What makes you think reaching 90 deaths will make someone avoid risk? Do you sit at home the whole day behind your computer, avoiding risk? You only have one life, yet I bet you still go out there and cross the street, drive a car, maybe even bungee jump or skydive. Why do you take those risks?
That's life, you enjoy it, it's the experience that counts, not the end. We all die, why can't our characters in a game die? Why do we view a character grind as work? It's a game, it's supposed to be entertaiment. A game of chess, soccer or super mario brothers also ends. Do you view them as work as well? Do you avoid those games because they end?
I'd say, you seem to have at least more than a fleeting interest in the other concepts of this game, why don't you sign up on the official forums and present your concerns about grieving and PD on the boards and discuss them with the rest of the members. We have quite a few who are still against PD, so it should make for some interesting discussion. And I'm sure the developers would also love to hear your concerns. Either you'll manage to point out to them a flaw that they haven't thought of, or they might convince you that PD might not be so bad after all
I dont live in my parents basement anymore to the point I can play a game from 5pm Friday night until 9pm Sunday night non stop. I am lucky to get 5 to 10 hours a week to play and if I am going to get a perma death and loose hundreds of hours worth of work I am not going to play that game.
So you also don't watch movies anymore, because they inevitably "end", and that would be a waste of 2 hours watching time? Or read books, because they also have an ending? Never play chess?
Nearly every game that was ever conceived by humans has an ending. Chess, Go, Checkers, Super Mario, Soccer, Baseball... How come you view it as a "loss of time" when your character dies? Isn't it the experience that counts, the gameplay itself? And doesn't it open up the doors to try something new, a new character, a new experience altogether?
There's this mentality of viewing MMO's and their characters as "work" it seems, and PD threatens for you to "lose" this work and time you put in. This is a twisted way to look at things though, probably brought on to us by all the level grind MMO's where you could only have an impact on the game if you had the highest level, the best gear, etc.
Wake up guys, it's still a GAME, not WORK. So what if it has a defined ending? Start over, and play again! ToA doesn't have a level grind, and you don't need to spend hours and hours to make a real impact on other players or settlements.
Think of all the benefits of PD that most people already tried to point out... a decent economy sink, a character sink, no stale status-quo's between the most powerful characters/guilds, an actual beginning, mid-point and ending to your own personal story, more attachment to your character, etc.
Let me ask you one last question: why do you spend time with your family? They are going to permadie at some point, so isn't it a waste of time?
I'm sorry, I'm also 30+ myself and I know what you're saying about having less time to play games and all, but to think of it as a waste of time just because your character can permadie on you is an utterly wrong perspective imo. In fact, I just started playing D3 again in hardcore mode, where even lag or a computer crash can wipe out your character. I still do it. Why? Because it's 100x more enjoyable and exciting than playing a game where death has no consequences.
And Ildefonse nails it ! Excellent points. And all my best to Danwest58, you are not alone in your thoughts, I hope you give ToA a chance & come to really enjoy it (when it's out). Or, mention your thoughts on the ToA forums, -great people there *thumbs up*
You do things for the experience of doing it. Sure, I'll probably be a bit angry and sad when a character I have played for months dies off. But then I get the chance later on to look back and laugh about all the crap I did on it.
Play DnD? Your character is pretty likely to die. Oh wait, doesn't have 'griefers' right? Nothing to say your DM can't have a bad day and decide to kill your entire party because he is upset. Isn't that a form of griefing? Or maybe a different memeber of the party is a serial killer. Not player griefing?
What about all those books or TV shows or movies that your favorite character is killed off. Oh, I get pissed, but I like it too because it's not a super happy, everyone survives, hooray. Princess rainbow land of sparkles and contentment. There is loss, you grieve for them. It makes things well rounded.
I believe there was a comment about dying and starting over where no one knows you. ...You don't make friends? Can't contact them over mail in game, email, message systems to let them know. Kind of like rolling and alt in the other games isn't it?
I know lots of people who make characters, level them to max and then delete them because they are bored. That's Perma-death isn't it? Sure, maybe your character dies before it's 'time' but does that really matter? It makes a lovely story.
As an RPer in different MMO's I love the idea of Perma-death. I like stories. I like them to have an end, even if it is tragic. In fact, I tend to love the tragedies more because they invoke more emotion out of me. More memorable.
All in all I think this game could be great and will be funding and following it.
I think there is a disconnect between what the game really is, and the image people are getting when they hear "Open World Sandbox PvP"
Trials of Ascension is not a PvP game, but it will not disallow you from attacking a player. What stops people from attacking people in real life? Consequences that matter. Permadeath works both ways. Real life might as well be called an Open World Sandbox with PvP. There are no radars, no names over your head. You can't even see their level. Would you think twice about attacking them?
Your character is about to die for the 100th? Put all your gold and gear in a chest and roll something new.
And I reiterate. ToA is NOT a PvP game. WoW is a PvP (with some PvE) game. In WoW, you could die 30 times in one day. In ToA, unless you're being stupid, you will rarely die. And if one even cares to look further into the game, you will see that the devs plan to be in control of the world. If a guild of hot shots goes rampaging around killing everyone, the devs won't hesitate to throw an army of undead in their path.
If you read up on the features of the game, like settlements, you'll see that this not only is very difficult to do but something not entirely desired. Sure they can assemble a team of people and maurader around and see who they can find but do you realize how difficult it will be to find someone? There are no floating names above peoples heads AND you can wear clothing that will help you blend into your surroundings so good luck on that!
Furthermore, there is no radar or any kind of GPS in the game so if you think you can go out on a rampage and kill as many people as possible, you will more than likely end up getting yourselves lost and possibly killed.
And when night-time comes and you're out in the middle of nowhere, you can say 'bye-bye' to your butt because there ain't no way you're finding your way back!
Have you ever played a game that does not have a map? I have, it takes only a day or two to get the lay of the land down for lets say..what in many games would be considered a "zone" now given a week you can learn a massive amount of area in a game so finding your way around is not a problem at all. Also players will make maps online and post them. This isnt 1995 when games didnt have have tons of player made websites. (again I will use minecraft as a very basic example. The server I play on has a huge world, but I can find anyone's home simply based on looking at the various landscapes)
To the seasoned pvp/greifer they know where to look and find people doing the various tasks that this game will require. (mining, hunting, logging, etc.. Its simply a matter of laying in wait or just getting a large group (guild) and roaming around. The world wont be dangerous to them at all if they have a well orginized group of players which typically happens as guilds grow in power on games with pvp.
Im really not trying to bash the game by anymeans. Infact save perma death this game would be exactly what I have been looking for for a VERY long time.
Yes, i've played several games that didn't have a map and I was still able to find my way around, after getting lost A LOT of times but I did eventually find my way but not before finding really cool towns, dangerous camps or some random NPC in the middle of nowhere. And I am not saying that the game is going to be like this all the time. People will eventually know where to go, know where certain towns are and whatnot but this game isn't like your normal MMO where THIS location is where X spawns and that is where people go for Y quest and here you can find people mining. There are no mining nodes and no specific location where you MUST go to mine or do any kind of specific task. Heck, you can make your own fire and use that to smith ANYWHERE. When someone asks ‘Where can I go kill a bear’ you won’t get a ‘Just go north of X town, they spawn over there’. The spawning is truly dynamic, not just with bears but with everything. The list goes on and on and on.
I’m not trying to be rude but you've got to get out of this mindset that has completely saturated the MMORPG market and made everyone think of mmo games as being 'work' (As ildefonse said) and that everything is going to be JUST like what you've experienced in other mmo's. “Oh this is an open world PvP game – let me get my ‘another PvP game’ stamp.
Take the time and learn the features of the game and join the forums and join the conversation. Post your concerns and talk. I am confident that you will find that this game has more to offer than any of us know.
Its a matter of balance. There is no value in killing someone, weighted against the cost of the death, across a large scale.
With this in mind, the presence of a massive cost, will coerce players into survival and avoidance of death at all costs.
Why allow a 1v1 when the risk outweighs the reward. Always outzerg your opponent. Why risk events when someone could be accidently killed in a duel or town. Why leave your guild city? Why kill mobs when you can harvest and craft and avoid the risk of death.
Unless the lionshares of asset value is not on the character's progression, but the ecosystem progression, and the player has some method of ownership over his portion of work put into that ecosystem, the equilibrium will always fall towards efficiency in survival and not roleplaying and fun.
MMORPGs are not about realistic and visceral survival. They are about roleplaying.
No mmo with perma death has ever had much success for a reason. A small cult following is cute but they don't pay the bills. It's especially bad in games that claim they will be about PvP. Perma deaths discourages PvP, especially if it takes a long, long time to achieve the same level where you died at.
There is really no exception. Perma death doesn't attract large audiences so unless you're able to keep the game up with a skeleton crew and very little income, expect failure/employment cuts/closure.
I think there is a disconnect between what the game really is, and the image people are getting when they hear "Open World Sandbox PvP"
Trials of Ascension is not a PvP game, but it will not disallow you from attacking a player. What stops people from attacking people in real life? Consequences that matter. Permadeath works both ways. Real life might as well be called an Open World Sandbox with PvP. There are no radars, no names over your head. You can't even see their level. Would you think twice about attacking them?
Your character is about to die for the 100th? Put all your gold and gear in a chest and roll something new.
And I reiterate. ToA is NOT a PvP game. WoW is a PvP (with some PvE) game. In WoW, you could die 30 times in one day. In ToA, unless you're being stupid, you will rarely die. And if one even cares to look further into the game, you will see that the devs plan to be in control of the world. If a guild of hot shots goes rampaging around killing everyone, the devs won't hesitate to throw an army of undead in their path.
If this is the case, the game will die very quickly. Absolutely no way would I invest in a game where developers would punish success or teamwork in an openworld sandbox with PvP. I am aware this game has some rabid fanboyism, but this description is doomed to failure.
This game could be a gem if it attracts more good alligned people then immature or hostile alligned players. This was UOs charm, the playerbase was mostly good folks enjoying the game and helping each other out, great ingame friendships were made and playing was fun with the danger element.
However perma-death in a pk'er type game is not for me, Ive seen it in UO, Darkfall and other similar pvp platforms where folk will use hacks and cheats to gain an edge, and the thought of it being possible to grief another into losing many of the pre-perma death counts in this way does not sound like fun.
This game could be a gem if it attracts more good alligned people then immature or hostile alligned players. This was UOs charm, the playerbase was mostly good folks enjoying the game and helping each other out, great ingame friendships were made and playing was fun with the danger element.
However perma-death in a pk'er type game is not for me, Ive seen it in UO, Darkfall and other similar pvp platforms where folk will use hacks and cheats to gain an edge, and the thought of it being possible to grief another into losing many of the pre-perma death counts in this way does not sound like fun.
ToA is definitely not a pk'er type game and the community on the forums is extraordinary! I don't think griefing will be a huge problem, not only because of the consequences in the game, but because the community as a whole is great and full of mature, intelligent people.
This game could be a gem if it attracts more good alligned people then immature or hostile alligned players. This was UOs charm, the playerbase was mostly good folks enjoying the game and helping each other out, great ingame friendships were made and playing was fun with the danger element.
However perma-death in a pk'er type game is not for me, Ive seen it in UO, Darkfall and other similar pvp platforms where folk will use hacks and cheats to gain an edge, and the thought of it being possible to grief another into losing many of the pre-perma death counts in this way does not sound like fun.
I suspect that the fact that you can't determin other peoples ability, or 'level' so-to-speak, would make it less likely for someone to attack anyone they see. The fear of permadeath itself would aid in that I think, because people would be wary. Without PD, PvP would be much much much more rampant, I imagine. Hmm... Interesting stuff to think about that's for sure.
I really don't thnik it's accurate to call it a pk'ers game. Darkfall fits that category but after reading more on their website, a biggger picture began to emerge and I'm understanding more what's actually going on here. There is definitely a bigger picture there when you take into account all the little details. I only just found the game today so I have more reading to do.. Anyways, I would be hesitant to think I knew how the game would play out by just reading this article here. I'd reccomend some of you do yourselves a favor and delve into all the info first before coming to any innacurate conclusion.
Its a matter of balance. There is no value in killing someone, weighted against the cost of the death, across a large scale.
With this in mind, the presence of a massive cost, will coerce players into survival and avoidance of death at all costs.
Why allow a 1v1 when the risk outweighs the reward. Always outzerg your opponent. Why risk events when someone could be accidently killed in a duel or town. Why leave your guild city? Why kill mobs when you can harvest and craft and avoid the risk of death.
Unless the lionshares of asset value is not on the character's progression, but the ecosystem progression, and the player has some method of ownership over his portion of work put into that ecosystem, the equilibrium will always fall towards efficiency in survival and not roleplaying and fun.
MMORPGs are not about realistic and visceral survival. They are about roleplaying.
I think what you say is spot on in some respects, and from what I know of the game I do think that ecosystem progression is more the focal point than character progression. Perhaps that didn't really come across in this interview. But the deep crafting and settlement construction and the focus on gathering resources for survival and the like makes the game primarily about community and leaving your mark on the development thereof. That's not to say plenty of people won't play it just to try to kill people, but the majority of the design doesn't reward that kind of play.
I think this kind of situation, where you need to band together with others to craft the best items, to get the resources you need, and yeah, sometimes to fend off a bunch of griefers, takes roleplay to a level that's rarely touched upon in most MMOs out there. The roleplay is connected to the gameplay, not just a layer you add on to it.
Well I'm not so much into permadeath or ffa pvp but i like sandboxes, so power to you. The problem is, that their website says that the game is currently under "limited development" and they hope for kickstarter... Below the line, they are a bunch of guys with ideas for a (very niche) mmo but no money. I think it’s the same with pretty much everyone on this forum.
I don’t have much hope for all that kickstarter stuff. Pathfinder online has risen 1 mil, what is still way to little for any decent game, but maybe it gets them somewhere.
I wish all the best for everyone who tries to innovate this genre. But in the end I only care for games that I can actually play some day.
I'm personally amazed how much naivity is still out there concerning PvP, Permadeath and griefing. Did you guys play games like that and actually do research on the ones who griefed? Recent example Salem, I mean seriously, do you follow how ingenious the "professional" griefer are - and how hungry for new meat?
In Salem you see no name, no level etc. too. Guess what people did? They brought at least one char up to be high enough to live in the dark lands. You get constantly "hits" there so to say, only if you are strong enough to accept that you can make it your home - and be safe from everyone else, good luck hunting someone there. Player chars got numbered, everytime you see one in Boston you number them, starting with 1, over time you see very few "old" numbers pop up, but you can still use that to define who most likely is actually strong and who is a newbie. That can be easily done with a tool which detects the char ID and gives them numbers if the game does not allow that. Then you just walk around with a low level char, attack someone, see how they react, that tags them in terms of how well they can respond and fight. Then you come with your real char or buddies.
You can "hide" in the green? Of course. /facepalm
That is a game, everything is digital, if there is a charID around a griefer tool will find it and show it on some radar hack. Seriously, there are so many ways and as much as I despise that whole grieferthing, when you take the time to study how they do it, you can't help it but grudgingly admit some respect for all the ways they find to do it. And then you get one of these funny little fluffy "Oh we will deal with it, we are so good, no problem.".
And there is just ... facepalm.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ... Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2 Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
Comments
Have you ever played a game where your actions had impact on the world? If yes name one.
This game has been in development for over a decade now. I expected it to be vaporware for its entire life, but apparently they're actually bothering to try and make it. Honestly, I don';t see this is working, as they haven't thought things through far enough. 100 lives? PvP doesn't require flagging? I see people rushing to get high levels in their skills, and then sitting in the lowbie areas griefing the new players who can't compete with them until they perma-kill them, then sitting on the forums, laughing at the QQ about how no one can join the game because of the griefing in the starting areas. Recipe for commercial failure.
*grabs popcorn*
So, let's get on with this disaster flick.
Read my above.
Except that there are no lowbie areas judging by what little I've read about this game today. It is not the typical "low levels hang out here, highs over there" at all. It seems to me that it's a world ran by people making their own communities and villages and whatnot. And you can't just see what level other people are. Way to comment without knowing anything.
Personally I am so happy I found this today. Really looks like my kind of game.
Noob systems in EVE are protected from ganks, everywhere else is free game, I'd imagine they'd have some way of protecting noob players from such things, I mean they are sandbox devs after all.
So you also don't watch movies anymore, because they inevitably "end", and that would be a waste of 2 hours watching time? Or read books, because they also have an ending? Never play chess?
Nearly every game that was ever conceived by humans has an ending. Chess, Go, Checkers, Super Mario, Soccer, Baseball... How come you view it as a "loss of time" when your character dies? Isn't it the experience that counts, the gameplay itself? And doesn't it open up the doors to try something new, a new character, a new experience altogether?
There's this mentality of viewing MMO's and their characters as "work" it seems, and PD threatens for you to "lose" this work and time you put in. This is a twisted way to look at things though, probably brought on to us by all the level grind MMO's where you could only have an impact on the game if you had the highest level, the best gear, etc.
Wake up guys, it's still a GAME, not WORK. So what if it has a defined ending? Start over, and play again! ToA doesn't have a level grind, and you don't need to spend hours and hours to make a real impact on other players or settlements.
Think of all the benefits of PD that most people already tried to point out... a decent economy sink, a character sink, no stale status-quo's between the most powerful characters/guilds, an actual beginning, mid-point and ending to your own personal story, more attachment to your character, etc.
Let me ask you one last question: why do you spend time with your family? They are going to permadie at some point, so isn't it a waste of time?
I'm sorry, I'm also 30+ myself and I know what you're saying about having less time to play games and all, but to think of it as a waste of time just because your character can permadie on you is an utterly wrong perspective imo. In fact, I just started playing D3 again in hardcore mode, where even lag or a computer crash can wipe out your character. I still do it. Why? Because it's 100x more enjoyable and exciting than playing a game where death has no consequences.
Have you ever played a game that does not have a map? I have, it takes only a day or two to get the lay of the land down for lets say..what in many games would be considered a "zone" now given a week you can learn a massive amount of area in a game so finding your way around is not a problem at all. Also players will make maps online and post them. This isnt 1995 when games didnt have have tons of player made websites. (again I will use minecraft as a very basic example. The server I play on has a huge world, but I can find anyone's home simply based on looking at the various landscapes)
To the seasoned pvp/greifer they know where to look and find people doing the various tasks that this game will require. (mining, hunting, logging, etc.. Its simply a matter of laying in wait or just getting a large group (guild) and roaming around. The world wont be dangerous to them at all if they have a well orginized group of players which typically happens as guilds grow in power on games with pvp.
Im really not trying to bash the game by anymeans. Infact save perma death this game would be exactly what I have been looking for for a VERY long time.
Wurm online.
I suspect the fact that you can't determine other peoples ability, or "level" so to speak, would make someone more hesitant to attack anyone they see. Hmm.. It seems that permadeath would also automatically mean less PvP going on. Perhaps more people would see that ToA means to be a more cooperative game rather than something like Darkfall. It would certainly be easier and safer to work together. Interesting stuff to think about.
Thanks, I made it. The text you read are developer quotes.
What makes you think reaching 90 deaths will make someone avoid risk? Do you sit at home the whole day behind your computer, avoiding risk? You only have one life, yet I bet you still go out there and cross the street, drive a car, maybe even bungee jump or skydive. Why do you take those risks?
That's life, you enjoy it, it's the experience that counts, not the end. We all die, why can't our characters in a game die? Why do we view a character grind as work? It's a game, it's supposed to be entertaiment. A game of chess, soccer or super mario brothers also ends. Do you view them as work as well? Do you avoid those games because they end?
I'd say, you seem to have at least more than a fleeting interest in the other concepts of this game, why don't you sign up on the official forums and present your concerns about grieving and PD on the boards and discuss them with the rest of the members. We have quite a few who are still against PD, so it should make for some interesting discussion. And I'm sure the developers would also love to hear your concerns. Either you'll manage to point out to them a flaw that they haven't thought of, or they might convince you that PD might not be so bad after all
And Ildefonse nails it
! Excellent points. And all my best to Danwest58, you are not alone in your thoughts, I hope you give ToA a chance & come to really enjoy it (when it's out). Or, mention your thoughts on the ToA forums, -great people there *thumbs up*
http://trialsofascension.com
I have to agree with Ildefonse.
You do things for the experience of doing it. Sure, I'll probably be a bit angry and sad when a character I have played for months dies off. But then I get the chance later on to look back and laugh about all the crap I did on it.
Play DnD? Your character is pretty likely to die. Oh wait, doesn't have 'griefers' right? Nothing to say your DM can't have a bad day and decide to kill your entire party because he is upset. Isn't that a form of griefing? Or maybe a different memeber of the party is a serial killer. Not player griefing?
What about all those books or TV shows or movies that your favorite character is killed off. Oh, I get pissed, but I like it too because it's not a super happy, everyone survives, hooray. Princess rainbow land of sparkles and contentment. There is loss, you grieve for them. It makes things well rounded.
I believe there was a comment about dying and starting over where no one knows you. ...You don't make friends? Can't contact them over mail in game, email, message systems to let them know. Kind of like rolling and alt in the other games isn't it?
I know lots of people who make characters, level them to max and then delete them because they are bored. That's Perma-death isn't it? Sure, maybe your character dies before it's 'time' but does that really matter? It makes a lovely story.
As an RPer in different MMO's I love the idea of Perma-death. I like stories. I like them to have an end, even if it is tragic. In fact, I tend to love the tragedies more because they invoke more emotion out of me. More memorable.
All in all I think this game could be great and will be funding and following it.
I think there is a disconnect between what the game really is, and the image people are getting when they hear "Open World Sandbox PvP"
Trials of Ascension is not a PvP game, but it will not disallow you from attacking a player. What stops people from attacking people in real life? Consequences that matter. Permadeath works both ways. Real life might as well be called an Open World Sandbox with PvP. There are no radars, no names over your head. You can't even see their level. Would you think twice about attacking them?
Your character is about to die for the 100th? Put all your gold and gear in a chest and roll something new.
And I reiterate. ToA is NOT a PvP game. WoW is a PvP (with some PvE) game. In WoW, you could die 30 times in one day. In ToA, unless you're being stupid, you will rarely die. And if one even cares to look further into the game, you will see that the devs plan to be in control of the world. If a guild of hot shots goes rampaging around killing everyone, the devs won't hesitate to throw an army of undead in their path.
Yes, i've played several games that didn't have a map and I was still able to find my way around, after getting lost A LOT of times but I did eventually find my way but not before finding really cool towns, dangerous camps or some random NPC in the middle of nowhere. And I am not saying that the game is going to be like this all the time. People will eventually know where to go, know where certain towns are and whatnot but this game isn't like your normal MMO where THIS location is where X spawns and that is where people go for Y quest and here you can find people mining. There are no mining nodes and no specific location where you MUST go to mine or do any kind of specific task. Heck, you can make your own fire and use that to smith ANYWHERE. When someone asks ‘Where can I go kill a bear’ you won’t get a ‘Just go north of X town, they spawn over there’. The spawning is truly dynamic, not just with bears but with everything. The list goes on and on and on.
I’m not trying to be rude but you've got to get out of this mindset that has completely saturated the MMORPG market and made everyone think of mmo games as being 'work' (As ildefonse said) and that everything is going to be JUST like what you've experienced in other mmo's. “Oh this is an open world PvP game – let me get my ‘another PvP game’ stamp.
Take the time and learn the features of the game and join the forums and join the conversation. Post your concerns and talk. I am confident that you will find that this game has more to offer than any of us know.
OMG... I couldn't believe my eyes when I read the title... Trials of Ascension!!!
This MMO is pure gold... i was so sad when they stopped development, i thought i'd never see something so amazing being done again, and here it is!!!
I remember reading the features and thinking, wow, this goes beyond what i ever imagined for the MMO of my dreams!
Hope they can make it this time!
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
The problem with perma-death isn't the "grief."
Its a matter of balance. There is no value in killing someone, weighted against the cost of the death, across a large scale.
With this in mind, the presence of a massive cost, will coerce players into survival and avoidance of death at all costs.
Why allow a 1v1 when the risk outweighs the reward. Always outzerg your opponent. Why risk events when someone could be accidently killed in a duel or town. Why leave your guild city? Why kill mobs when you can harvest and craft and avoid the risk of death.
Unless the lionshares of asset value is not on the character's progression, but the ecosystem progression, and the player has some method of ownership over his portion of work put into that ecosystem, the equilibrium will always fall towards efficiency in survival and not roleplaying and fun.
MMORPGs are not about realistic and visceral survival. They are about roleplaying.
No mmo with perma death has ever had much success for a reason. A small cult following is cute but they don't pay the bills. It's especially bad in games that claim they will be about PvP. Perma deaths discourages PvP, especially if it takes a long, long time to achieve the same level where you died at.
There is really no exception. Perma death doesn't attract large audiences so unless you're able to keep the game up with a skeleton crew and very little income, expect failure/employment cuts/closure.
If this is the case, the game will die very quickly. Absolutely no way would I invest in a game where developers would punish success or teamwork in an openworld sandbox with PvP. I am aware this game has some rabid fanboyism, but this description is doomed to failure.
This game could be a gem if it attracts more good alligned people then immature or hostile alligned players. This was UOs charm, the playerbase was mostly good folks enjoying the game and helping each other out, great ingame friendships were made and playing was fun with the danger element.
However perma-death in a pk'er type game is not for me, Ive seen it in UO, Darkfall and other similar pvp platforms where folk will use hacks and cheats to gain an edge, and the thought of it being possible to grief another into losing many of the pre-perma death counts in this way does not sound like fun.
ToA is definitely not a pk'er type game and the community on the forums is extraordinary! I don't think griefing will be a huge problem, not only because of the consequences in the game, but because the community as a whole is great and full of mature, intelligent people.
I suspect that the fact that you can't determin other peoples ability, or 'level' so-to-speak, would make it less likely for someone to attack anyone they see. The fear of permadeath itself would aid in that I think, because people would be wary. Without PD, PvP would be much much much more rampant, I imagine. Hmm... Interesting stuff to think about that's for sure.
I really don't thnik it's accurate to call it a pk'ers game. Darkfall fits that category but after reading more on their website, a biggger picture began to emerge and I'm understanding more what's actually going on here. There is definitely a bigger picture there when you take into account all the little details. I only just found the game today so I have more reading to do.. Anyways, I would be hesitant to think I knew how the game would play out by just reading this article here. I'd reccomend some of you do yourselves a favor and delve into all the info first before coming to any innacurate conclusion.
AKA - Bruxail
I think what you say is spot on in some respects, and from what I know of the game I do think that ecosystem progression is more the focal point than character progression. Perhaps that didn't really come across in this interview. But the deep crafting and settlement construction and the focus on gathering resources for survival and the like makes the game primarily about community and leaving your mark on the development thereof. That's not to say plenty of people won't play it just to try to kill people, but the majority of the design doesn't reward that kind of play.
I think this kind of situation, where you need to band together with others to craft the best items, to get the resources you need, and yeah, sometimes to fend off a bunch of griefers, takes roleplay to a level that's rarely touched upon in most MMOs out there. The roleplay is connected to the gameplay, not just a layer you add on to it.
Well I'm not so much into permadeath or ffa pvp but i like sandboxes, so power to you. The problem is, that their website says that the game is currently under "limited development" and they hope for kickstarter... Below the line, they are a bunch of guys with ideas for a (very niche) mmo but no money. I think it’s the same with pretty much everyone on this forum.
I don’t have much hope for all that kickstarter stuff. Pathfinder online has risen 1 mil, what is still way to little for any decent game, but maybe it gets them somewhere.
I wish all the best for everyone who tries to innovate this genre. But in the end I only care for games that I can actually play some day.
I'm personally amazed how much naivity is still out there concerning PvP, Permadeath and griefing. Did you guys play games like that and actually do research on the ones who griefed? Recent example Salem, I mean seriously, do you follow how ingenious the "professional" griefer are - and how hungry for new meat?
In Salem you see no name, no level etc. too. Guess what people did? They brought at least one char up to be high enough to live in the dark lands. You get constantly "hits" there so to say, only if you are strong enough to accept that you can make it your home - and be safe from everyone else, good luck hunting someone there. Player chars got numbered, everytime you see one in Boston you number them, starting with 1, over time you see very few "old" numbers pop up, but you can still use that to define who most likely is actually strong and who is a newbie. That can be easily done with a tool which detects the char ID and gives them numbers if the game does not allow that. Then you just walk around with a low level char, attack someone, see how they react, that tags them in terms of how well they can respond and fight. Then you come with your real char or buddies.
You can "hide" in the green? Of course. /facepalm
That is a game, everything is digital, if there is a charID around a griefer tool will find it and show it on some radar hack. Seriously, there are so many ways and as much as I despise that whole grieferthing, when you take the time to study how they do it, you can't help it but grudgingly admit some respect for all the ways they find to do it. And then you get one of these funny little fluffy "Oh we will deal with it, we are so good, no problem.".
And there is just ... facepalm.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ...
Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse
Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2
Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation