When I said "Pardon, I didn't mean to imply that it does" I was referring to the bouncing between servers. If you're playing on multiple servers, that, in and of itself is not promoting community spirit. I agree with you on that. But SCS doesn't change that, because you will still need to "bounce to another server" if you want to play a different faction.
Personally i think SCS promotes people to bounce even more than they normally would, which more than likely takes away from what you are looking to gain with SCS.
Most folks i know typically stick to one server/realm, especially when it comes to RvR type games. When the game revolves around your realm, and thats what i am fighting for, i don't really need to go elsewhere to get the same. Perhaps we are in the minority though, not sure.
Dunno, i've said my piece. In anything but an RvR game, i could probably go for it, but im thinking it takes away from the goal of these games, even if just a little more than slightly.
I dont see how having alts of the same faction on the same server is a detriment to the game. Pushing players to play on other servers to do alts just ruins the sense of factional/server participation.
This is not a skill based game it will have classes, which will in hand encourage alts.
Good point. I think it can be detrimental if you have a player that likes to make a bunch of alts playing on an SCS. Probably there would need to be a compromise, because certainly you're not the only person that likes to make a bunch of alts.
Me personally, I don't really make alts. I find one character that I really enjoy playing, sometimes this means restarting a bunch of times until I find it, then I focus on that character.. pretty much forever. I'm definitely not an altaholic and I would love the opportunity to play with other people that are not altaholics either, other people that are serious about that one character.
Normal servers for the people that like alts or want them for the convenience factor. 1 special ruleset SCS for those that don't really do alts.
While I like the single character idea (AoW does this well), it's somewhat made irrelivant by the ability to just make multiple accounts. I am interested in hearing from Mark on how he will combat or remove the ability to make a bot account to buff characters, as this was a major issue with DAOC.
I'd be all for it, whether people want to see it with pros and cons, or just as having an actual learning curve.
But I'm with you Terra, my views are usually unpopular with the current stock of xbox kiddiez we're stuck playing with these days. Everyone wants to do everything and be the hero in their own minds (i.e. pay a sub for a single player game with an option to chat with others... like playing skyrim with MSN open is too hard =P). It used to be if you did something 'heroic' the whole server knew your name, now you're just another cookie cut drop in the ocean begging to get into a group because there's 100 people just like you all wanting in said group with nothing at all that makes any of you stand out. But it's all good because you're self-famous. I've seen a couple of you mention Galaxies... and if you'll remember, crafters on there that really took pride in their work were well known and were the people you looked for to make your stuff, and it took community to get them all the things they needed, they weren't 100% self reliant. You didn't sit at an auction house hitting refresh for an hour and call it fun. So yeah, I'd definitely play on an SCS and have an IDENTITY rather than an 'I win' button for every single possibility. The guy that wants to switch to an alt to beat a challenge that his current toon can't handle is the same person that got his ass handed to him in PvP and switched to his higher level alt to come back and get revenge because he couldn't handle it. If niche is all we get, I'll take it. At least the players will play, be dedicated, have some balls, and not /ragequit every time they think the world is unfair. I mean seriously, games may be labeled as fantasy, or sci-fi, or anything but reality, but that doesn't mean all laws of physics and logic should be suspended to make sure you can't lose... what's next? pay $15/month to get an email saying you won once a week so you can pretend you matter and feel good about yourself? lol
No SOE... you can't steal that last idea. I saw you looking Smedley >.>
Originally posted by ragz45 While I like the single character idea (AoW does this well), it's somewhat made irrelivant by the ability to just make multiple accounts. I am interested in hearing from Mark on how he will combat or remove the ability to make a bot account to buff characters, as this was a major issue with DAOC.
I absolutely share your concern here. If buffbot accounts are even remotely as prevalent in CU as they were in DAoC, then SCS is made entirely pointless.
I like the SCS but as pre your example, most games allow 2 main trade skills (Swordsmith and miner) So in that reguard you would not need a second toon.
You make a good point. I wanted to keep my example simple, but I agree with you that most MMO these days allow a crafting profession and a gathering profession. To make my example more complex, you could say that a sword actually requires 4 seperate professions to create.
1. Miner: to harvest the ore, then smelt it.
2. Blacksmith: to hammer the metal bars into the shape of a sword.
3. Carpenter: wooden handle, fastened to the metal shaft with a bolt or two through the middle.
4. Leatherworker: handle is wrapped in leather strips for grip, comfort, cushion, whatever.
Ultimately it depends on how the crafting system works, but this is just an example.
They don't use wood for a handle. Have you thought that through?
I like the SCS but as pre your example, most games allow 2 main trade skills (Swordsmith and miner) So in that reguard you would not need a second toon.
You make a good point. I wanted to keep my example simple, but I agree with you that most MMO these days allow a crafting profession and a gathering profession. To make my example more complex, you could say that a sword actually requires 4 seperate professions to create.
1. Miner: to harvest the ore, then smelt it.
2. Blacksmith: to hammer the metal bars into the shape of a sword.
3. Carpenter: wooden handle, fastened to the metal shaft with a bolt or two through the middle.
4. Leatherworker: handle is wrapped in leather strips for grip, comfort, cushion, whatever.
Ultimately it depends on how the crafting system works, but this is just an example.
They don't use wood for a handle. Have you thought that through?
Actually, there have been many swords throughout history that have had wooden handles, so his example works fine and needs no thinking through XD
I give a big "HELL NO" to SCS. My reason for this is my experience with just such an idea back in early SWG. Due to the SCS idea I watched our guild who were a tight group of friends, as in someone in guild knew at least one other person in real life, torn completely apart by this concept. Either crafters got bored and one day just dumped hours of skill grinding to play another class that could actully go out and PVE/PVP without getting their asses handed to them, which of course annoyed the non-crafters who were relying on them to get good gear. Or our good crafters and friends were hardly ever logged in as they were playing a different class on anorther sever. And though I don't remember many guildies with a second account as that was still a bit of an alien concept back then, you know now days such a practice would run rampant and negate the very reason for SGS in the first place.
Personally I think the focus should not be on how to create artificial roadblocks to try to make crafting meaningful to the economy, and instead be to actually make crafting something worth doing in the first place. Whether it takes ten people working together or one guy all by himself to create that shiny sword you mentioned, it all becomes farce if every item pumped out is just a pointless carbon copy of one every other doorknob in game is making.
If you dont do stupid things while youre young, youll have nothing to smile about when youre old.
This may be less of an issue than we think. Today MJ talked about gathering mats from dangerous zones. He also, somewhere else mentioned the idea of weigh limits in bags. Maybe the rescource gathering part of crafting will require more of a group effort that will make more sense to bring your main character out to gather and fight for/ defend resources, rather than log out and back in on to your alt-miner character who may be vastly less powerful. I'm a big fan fewer, better crafters as well, so personally I'd like to see some sort of system that rewards a dedication to crafting so that it takes time and effort, beyond the point where having an alt crafter makes sense.
People are going to want to make alts. Might as well allow them to do so on their home server so that we can establish some sort of realm / server community instead of splitting everybody up all the time whenever one gets an itch of altitis, imo. I can see the appeal of a single character system, but I think it would do more harm than good. Just limit players to a single realm per server and leave it at that.
I am intrigued by this idea and would probably like a server like this. I don't have alt-itis like many people; not saying I don't make alts, but I love the idea of you are who you are in this server and I think it would appeal to a sub-set of people who would play this game. It would definitely increase "realm pride" and working together. Just the idea of it is very exciting. My only fear is that not enough players would want to do something like this long term. You should have made a poll!
I imagine players who are intersted in making a lot of alt's wouldn't even try a SCS.
If they do limit it to one char per server then can count me out. Sorry I like alts and being self sufficient.
@loopback Sorry your vague characterization(poor attempt at assasination) of people who do not agree with your ideas of what is good and needed is completely off. As for us being Xbox Kiddiez who have to always think we win or we /ragequit shows that the only kiddie here may be the original poster of that remark. I for one started my MMO days in UO and have continued on through many of them ask if you really want a list of them all. By the way there I also had many crafters and took pride in my work but most importantly when I needed to get quick gear to go out hunting it was there quickly. Log in make drop on floor of house and switch chars.
I do not need an I win email or award. I can loot it from your corpse.
I like being able to make alts on a single server. For the simple reason that my guild may not need my main 100% of the time, but with 2 or 3 different characters I can have somthing they need 100% of the time. Nothing sucks more then looking for a healer and not being able to find one. But being able to have multiple characters per server goes a long ways towards mitigating that problem.
In a game where they have artificially cut the world up into thirds, I am going to play at least three alts, minimum. That's if the stories are actually unique, related to the realms they're set in, and not cookie cutter. But I like alts. I also never get rid of even failed characters, if I can possibly help it.
But an interesting discussion of the pros and cons of it.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
At least one "Single Character Server" in CU would make a dream come true for me, IF - BIG IF - they could get it right and thats where the problems start.
I´m a big fan of playing one character only, improving my reputation especially as crafter, building some sort of community-network, cultivate contacts with regular customers but also to earn my respect on the battlefield and getting to know my enemies. Furthermore, while I do like it to be self-sufficient, it is much more realistic and fun, if I´m forced to work together with other people to maintain some sort of productionchain.
All of that would be much easier, intense and awesome if everyone out there only played one character. The problem is, that you cannot avoid people paying for two accounts then, thereby undermining the whole concept of a single character per server. I just cannot see any possibilty how they should manage to prevent that from happening.
single charatcer servers don't work ever.. People including myself like alts to play on a server we call home. Worried about server spies then add a 5+ hour can't change server rule. Been awhile but i was sure Daoc had this at one point to help stop the spying.
Removing the ability to allow others to make alts on their home server would kill server community in the end.
The more characters you have to equip, the more crafting that you are doing.
If you are getting bored or frustrated with a particular character, you can make a new one and start fresh.
Making fresh characters, starting over is exciting for people and is a great experience especially when combined with many unique classes with unique play styles.
For example lets say there end up being 4 or 5 archtypes, pretty broad roles. It is better to have limited respecs, say the path you've chosen is a thane, not a berserker. Thanes don't become berserkers. You don't unlearn Thor's hammer, the same way you don't give back the gift of fenris. From what mark has described, limited respecs will be more like, I'm still a thane but its been a while since I used a shield and since I've been using this big as sword, I'm now a two handed sword thane.
Either way you can get bored of a thane, and thats fine, maybe you feel like healing. Man I picked the wrong class to do this analogy with, because REAL thanes were healers, but DAoC thanes do not heal. Just because you feel like healing with your 1 character on the server, doesn't mean you can.
Ultimately its a quit point for many people, and marks said several times he wants to avoid unnecessary quit points. This is definitely an unnecessary quit point.
Well no one is trying to force the rules of a Single Character Server onto all servers we will get with Camelot Unchained. As far as I would go - we are talking about a server with a special ruleset, just like RP-servers or FFA-servers. Not everyone thinks twinking is fun. Not everyone likes to create alts. Not everyone would say, that a Single Character Server would be a quitpoint. So please, don´t generalize too much here. I see your points and its not that I disagree with you 100%. But there are valid arguments in favor of a single character server too. At least for those of us who don´t like to twink.
WEll of course then you have to justify developing the special ruleset code (including a warning workflow) and putting a whole server behind it by proving there is enough interest to populate it over the years.
And just accepting the fact that people could get around this limitation anyways.
Don´t get me wrong. I don´t need that server, even though I would like to have one. Roleplay, Free For All, Single Character....I think for all of those there are valid arguments and if its possible to realize them, I would. But I don´t want CSE to invest time and money on something that special, if there isn´t room for it and especially if no one has a good idea against multi-accountuser just bypassing the ruleset of a single character server.
I personally see no need and myself have no desire for a single character server. I've never been much of an "Alt" player, but I do like having the option of making another character on the same server I play my Main on.
With SCS we have to grab a random that probably doesn't know us, certainly doesn't know how we work, all our jargon and standard practices.
Without SCS I can just swap from my DPS to my backup tank and we're good to go. DPS is far easier to replace with a random. CC, tank and heals are far harder to replace.
And that's why I have to say 'No' to SCS unless the game allows 1 character to fulfill all roles...
Edit: Every now and then it's also nice to log in with an anonymous character and just bimble about on my own. However I still like that to be on my regular server so trhat if a call to arms is raised I can swap to my main and help defend.
Comments
Personally i think SCS promotes people to bounce even more than they normally would, which more than likely takes away from what you are looking to gain with SCS.
Most folks i know typically stick to one server/realm, especially when it comes to RvR type games. When the game revolves around your realm, and thats what i am fighting for, i don't really need to go elsewhere to get the same. Perhaps we are in the minority though, not sure.
Dunno, i've said my piece. In anything but an RvR game, i could probably go for it, but im thinking it takes away from the goal of these games, even if just a little more than slightly.
Good point. I think it can be detrimental if you have a player that likes to make a bunch of alts playing on an SCS. Probably there would need to be a compromise, because certainly you're not the only person that likes to make a bunch of alts.
Me personally, I don't really make alts. I find one character that I really enjoy playing, sometimes this means restarting a bunch of times until I find it, then I focus on that character.. pretty much forever. I'm definitely not an altaholic and I would love the opportunity to play with other people that are not altaholics either, other people that are serious about that one character.
Normal servers for the people that like alts or want them for the convenience factor. 1 special ruleset SCS for those that don't really do alts.
I'd be all for it, whether people want to see it with pros and cons, or just as having an actual learning curve.
But I'm with you Terra, my views are usually unpopular with the current stock of xbox kiddiez we're stuck playing with these days. Everyone wants to do everything and be the hero in their own minds (i.e. pay a sub for a single player game with an option to chat with others... like playing skyrim with MSN open is too hard =P). It used to be if you did something 'heroic' the whole server knew your name, now you're just another cookie cut drop in the ocean begging to get into a group because there's 100 people just like you all wanting in said group with nothing at all that makes any of you stand out. But it's all good because you're self-famous. I've seen a couple of you mention Galaxies... and if you'll remember, crafters on there that really took pride in their work were well known and were the people you looked for to make your stuff, and it took community to get them all the things they needed, they weren't 100% self reliant. You didn't sit at an auction house hitting refresh for an hour and call it fun. So yeah, I'd definitely play on an SCS and have an IDENTITY rather than an 'I win' button for every single possibility. The guy that wants to switch to an alt to beat a challenge that his current toon can't handle is the same person that got his ass handed to him in PvP and switched to his higher level alt to come back and get revenge because he couldn't handle it. If niche is all we get, I'll take it. At least the players will play, be dedicated, have some balls, and not /ragequit every time they think the world is unfair. I mean seriously, games may be labeled as fantasy, or sci-fi, or anything but reality, but that doesn't mean all laws of physics and logic should be suspended to make sure you can't lose... what's next? pay $15/month to get an email saying you won once a week so you can pretend you matter and feel good about yourself? lol
No SOE... you can't steal that last idea. I saw you looking Smedley >.>
I absolutely share your concern here. If buffbot accounts are even remotely as prevalent in CU as they were in DAoC, then SCS is made entirely pointless.
They don't use wood for a handle. Have you thought that through?
Actually, there have been many swords throughout history that have had wooden handles, so his example works fine and needs no thinking through XD
I give a big "HELL NO" to SCS. My reason for this is my experience with just such an idea back in early SWG. Due to the SCS idea I watched our guild who were a tight group of friends, as in someone in guild knew at least one other person in real life, torn completely apart by this concept. Either crafters got bored and one day just dumped hours of skill grinding to play another class that could actully go out and PVE/PVP without getting their asses handed to them, which of course annoyed the non-crafters who were relying on them to get good gear. Or our good crafters and friends were hardly ever logged in as they were playing a different class on anorther sever. And though I don't remember many guildies with a second account as that was still a bit of an alien concept back then, you know now days such a practice would run rampant and negate the very reason for SGS in the first place.
Personally I think the focus should not be on how to create artificial roadblocks to try to make crafting meaningful to the economy, and instead be to actually make crafting something worth doing in the first place. Whether it takes ten people working together or one guy all by himself to create that shiny sword you mentioned, it all becomes farce if every item pumped out is just a pointless carbon copy of one every other doorknob in game is making.
If you dont do stupid things while youre young, youll have nothing to smile about when youre old.
I am intrigued by this idea and would probably like a server like this. I don't have alt-itis like many people; not saying I don't make alts, but I love the idea of you are who you are in this server and I think it would appeal to a sub-set of people who would play this game. It would definitely increase "realm pride" and working together. Just the idea of it is very exciting. My only fear is that not enough players would want to do something like this long term. You should have made a poll!
I imagine players who are intersted in making a lot of alt's wouldn't even try a SCS.
If they do limit it to one char per server then can count me out. Sorry I like alts and being self sufficient.
@loopback Sorry your vague characterization(poor attempt at assasination) of people who do not agree with your ideas of what is good and needed is completely off. As for us being Xbox Kiddiez who have to always think we win or we /ragequit shows that the only kiddie here may be the original poster of that remark. I for one started my MMO days in UO and have continued on through many of them ask if you really want a list of them all. By the way there I also had many crafters and took pride in my work but most importantly when I needed to get quick gear to go out hunting it was there quickly. Log in make drop on floor of house and switch chars.
I do not need an I win email or award. I can loot it from your corpse.
In a game where they have artificially cut the world up into thirds, I am going to play at least three alts, minimum. That's if the stories are actually unique, related to the realms they're set in, and not cookie cutter. But I like alts. I also never get rid of even failed characters, if I can possibly help it.
But an interesting discussion of the pros and cons of it.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
At least one "Single Character Server" in CU would make a dream come true for me, IF - BIG IF - they could get it right and thats where the problems start.
I´m a big fan of playing one character only, improving my reputation especially as crafter, building some sort of community-network, cultivate contacts with regular customers but also to earn my respect on the battlefield and getting to know my enemies. Furthermore, while I do like it to be self-sufficient, it is much more realistic and fun, if I´m forced to work together with other people to maintain some sort of productionchain.
All of that would be much easier, intense and awesome if everyone out there only played one character. The problem is, that you cannot avoid people paying for two accounts then, thereby undermining the whole concept of a single character per server. I just cannot see any possibilty how they should manage to prevent that from happening.
Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/
single charatcer servers don't work ever.. People including myself like alts to play on a server we call home. Worried about server spies then add a 5+ hour can't change server rule. Been awhile but i was sure Daoc had this at one point to help stop the spying.
Removing the ability to allow others to make alts on their home server would kill server community in the end.
Alts are both healthy and essential.
The more characters you have to equip, the more crafting that you are doing.
If you are getting bored or frustrated with a particular character, you can make a new one and start fresh.
Making fresh characters, starting over is exciting for people and is a great experience especially when combined with many unique classes with unique play styles.
For example lets say there end up being 4 or 5 archtypes, pretty broad roles. It is better to have limited respecs, say the path you've chosen is a thane, not a berserker. Thanes don't become berserkers. You don't unlearn Thor's hammer, the same way you don't give back the gift of fenris. From what mark has described, limited respecs will be more like, I'm still a thane but its been a while since I used a shield and since I've been using this big as sword, I'm now a two handed sword thane.
Either way you can get bored of a thane, and thats fine, maybe you feel like healing. Man I picked the wrong class to do this analogy with, because REAL thanes were healers, but DAoC thanes do not heal. Just because you feel like healing with your 1 character on the server, doesn't mean you can.
Ultimately its a quit point for many people, and marks said several times he wants to avoid unnecessary quit points. This is definitely an unnecessary quit point.
Also, did I mention twinking is fun?
Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/
WEll of course then you have to justify developing the special ruleset code (including a warning workflow) and putting a whole server behind it by proving there is enough interest to populate it over the years.
And just accepting the fact that people could get around this limitation anyways.
Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/
Bear "replicant" Powell
"I am Shaolin-Style!"
My regular group's tank can't make it tonight.
With SCS we have to grab a random that probably doesn't know us, certainly doesn't know how we work, all our jargon and standard practices.
Without SCS I can just swap from my DPS to my backup tank and we're good to go. DPS is far easier to replace with a random. CC, tank and heals are far harder to replace.
And that's why I have to say 'No' to SCS unless the game allows 1 character to fulfill all roles...
Edit: Every now and then it's also nice to log in with an anonymous character and just bimble about on my own. However I still like that to be on my regular server so trhat if a call to arms is raised I can swap to my main and help defend.
Going to say No.
I want to be able to try out other classes, and if I get bored playing one kind of class I have something else to play.
Also, it's nice to beable to switch to the type of class your group, or guild or what ever needs.
Was there a poll for this?