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Do I really need to be leet?

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  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Member UncommonPosts: 2,433

    As long as I'm not forced to either grind hundreds of thousands of mobs as a hero, or farm one billion materials and spend weeks doing boring repetitive activities as a farmer, I see potential for either role or anything in between them.

    Sadly, the above seems to be the exact definition many games have of such roles.

     

    I just want fun games where the available roles respect the setting.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I have a question. In games that allow a more non combat role, like older MMO, how many crafting professions could you have at a single time?

    Was it locked to a few at a time like current mmo?

    Most don't lock you into a single skill or single skill set.

    In UO, you have about 700-750 points you can allocate. Cap for a skill is 100 (125 with bonuses). For most skills, you don't need 100 in a skill to do everything it offers either. So, while you can't take all the skills the game offers, you havce freedom to pick and choose which you want.

    In EVE, you can take any skills you want and have as many skills as you want. Your limitation is time, as skill gain is done passively over real time.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270

    My primary interest in MMOs is exploration and adventure. Getting a bit sick of these 'you are all epic heroes on an epic journey' type games. Leave that for single player RPGs where stories actually work and don't seem as contrived as 'thousands and thousands of people are epic heroes'.

    MMOs are about being part of a living breathing world and taking down monsters as part of a team. Not as an individual superhero.

  • oubersoubers Member UncommonPosts: 855
    Originally posted by madazz
    Reminds me of UO again lol, my buddy was a Treasure Hunter (map reading and stuff) on one char, and a blacksmith/miner on another. Then he had his swordsmen. Meanwhile, I had another buddy who mastered in workworking/lumberjack... had a theif too and a third that he used as a healer with ghost speak. Then me, I had my mage/tamer, swordsman, theif and my tracker! Tracking was pretty enjoyable at first, but I ended up enjoying taming more. Was fun to go out and tame some mounts for people that they hadn't seen before and sell them at the bank. 

    i miss those days :)

     

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    I think it is a mistake to think that a MMO has to have this, or has to have that .. it is simply a matter of preference. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a SP game. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a lobby co-op game. Some enjoy a MMO as a world. Not everyone needs a deep world with a real population to enjoy a MMO.

    Then you are in the wrong genre of games.

    This is happening with MMOs today.

    I'm sorry for the outburst. It is just that your posts, and others like them, get on my nerves. Why change something that was good to begin with? Because it does not meet "your" own criteria? Then why did you start playing in the first place? Why not play your Diablo III games and have fun with them? They have their own genre.

    It is because the majority of players agree with your thoughts. This really makes me sad. You, and those millions of other players, have taken a whole genre of gaming away from me. A genre I enjoyed playing "way back when." Now, there is no genre like the old MMORPGs.

    LOL ..of course i play Diablo.

    But if a MMO plays like Diablo, why shouldn't i play it if i like Diablo?

    You are horribly confused about me want to change anything. I am not a developers. I don't change games. I only play what i like. And if devs of MMOs want my business, and dev MMOs that play in the style i like, who am i to say no?

    You sounds like genres are fixed, and i need to only consider "genre" that i like. I laugh at that kind of inflexibility. I look at all games, if it plays in ways i like, i play it. I don't play MMOs. I don't play FPS. I don't play ARPG. I play fun (to me) games and disregard genre lines.

    That is why i think innovation is about crossing, and ignoring genre convention. Look at Borderland  ... very fun game. It is a FPS. It is a RPG. Who cares what genre it is in?

    Look at STO. I like the story mission. I will play it as SP. Who cares it is supposed to be a world.

    And you sound like others are trying to get you .. "take a whole genre away from me" .. me me me. Here is the deal. Few cares. They just go to gamestop, or go online, and try out games, and play those they like. No one is trying to get you. Genre changes all the time.

    For example, i love locked room mysteries, but they are not written in the US after the golden age of John Dickson Carr. Do i cry and rant and complain about novel readers having bad taste? No, i find something else to do (or read the old ones).

     

  • madazzmadazz Member RarePosts: 2,078
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    I think it is a mistake to think that a MMO has to have this, or has to have that .. it is simply a matter of preference. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a SP game. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a lobby co-op game. Some enjoy a MMO as a world. Not everyone needs a deep world with a real population to enjoy a MMO.

    Then you are in the wrong genre of games.

     

    Do you expect your puzzle games to have vast open worlds to explore?
    Do you expect your FPS games to have intricate puzzles to decode?
    Do you expect your Diablo IIIs to have in depth character development?

    Why, oh why do you keep insisting on making MMOs massive FPS games? We all know you think anything besides combat is boring in an MMO. You have stated that well, and quite often. You hold up Diablo III as the ultimate MMO. You mention it in about 80% of your posts that I read since it came out.

    Unfortunately, the majority of MMO players today feel as you do. MMOs have changed, just like Coke did when they tried their "new formula." This time, though, the change is taking hold. That leaves us "old timers" with very slim pickings to play for MMOs. What other genre of computer gaming offers vast open worlds with a slew of activities with other people to keep one occupied? What genre do I look to now for this type of entertainment? Tell me and I will leave MMOs alone, never looking back.

    I feel like I do when in this real life scenario. A group of people are at a party, possibly outside having a good time. They happen to be smoking. Soon another person comes along to join in on the fun, but they not only dislike smoking, they detest it. Pretty soon, they are complaining about all the smoke. Instead of going somewhere where there is no smoking, they want to change what already is to suit them. Never mind that 5-10 others are there enjoying themselves. Never mind that they went where they went so as to not interrupt others enjoyment of the party. No. Instead of creating a new group of people to have a good time with, this person decides to change what is, into what they want.

    This is happening with MMOs today.

    I'm sorry for the outburst. It is just that your posts, and others like them, get on my nerves. Why change something that was good to begin with? Because it does not meet "your" own criteria? Then why did you start playing in the first place? Why not play your Diablo III games and have fun with them? They have their own genre.

    It is because the majority of players agree with your thoughts. This really makes me sad. You, and those millions of other players, have taken a whole genre of gaming away from me. A genre I enjoyed playing "way back when." Now, there is no genre like the old MMORPGs.

    Preach on!

  • madazzmadazz Member RarePosts: 2,078
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    I think it is a mistake to think that a MMO has to have this, or has to have that .. it is simply a matter of preference. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a SP game. Some enjoy playing a MMO like a lobby co-op game. Some enjoy a MMO as a world. Not everyone needs a deep world with a real population to enjoy a MMO.

    Then you are in the wrong genre of games.

    This is happening with MMOs today.

    I'm sorry for the outburst. It is just that your posts, and others like them, get on my nerves. Why change something that was good to begin with? Because it does not meet "your" own criteria? Then why did you start playing in the first place? Why not play your Diablo III games and have fun with them? They have their own genre.

    It is because the majority of players agree with your thoughts. This really makes me sad. You, and those millions of other players, have taken a whole genre of gaming away from me. A genre I enjoyed playing "way back when." Now, there is no genre like the old MMORPGs.

    LOL ..of course i play Diablo.

    But if a MMO plays like Diablo, why shouldn't i play it if i like Diablo?

    You are horribly confused about me want to change anything. I am not a developers. I don't change games. I only play what i like. And if devs of MMOs want my business, and dev MMOs that play in the style i like, who am i to say no?

    You sounds like genres are fixed, and i need to only consider "genre" that i like. I laugh at that kind of inflexibility. I look at all games, if it plays in ways i like, i play it. I don't play MMOs. I don't play FPS. I don't play ARPG. I play fun (to me) games and disregard genre lines.

    That is why i think innovation is about crossing, and ignoring genre convention. Look at Borderland  ... very fun game. It is a FPS. It is a RPG. Who cares what genre it is in?

    Look at STO. I like the story mission. I will play it as SP. Who cares it is supposed to be a world.

    And you sound like others are trying to get you .. "take a whole genre away from me" .. me me me. Here is the deal. Few cares. They just go to gamestop, or go online, and try out games, and play those they like. No one is trying to get you. Genre changes all the time.

    For example, i love locked room mysteries, but they are not written in the US after the golden age of John Dickson Carr. Do i cry and rant and complain about novel readers having bad taste? No, i find something else to do (or read the old ones).

     

    When something becomes radically different from the genre it spawned from it becomes its own genre. You like a different breed of games altogether. Not MMO's. MMO's are already highly defined. Your wants do not coincide with the MMO genre. They coincide with co-op and single player games.

  • madazzmadazz Member RarePosts: 2,078
    Originally posted by oubers
    Originally posted by madazz
    Reminds me of UO again lol, my buddy was a Treasure Hunter (map reading and stuff) on one char, and a blacksmith/miner on another. Then he had his swordsmen. Meanwhile, I had another buddy who mastered in workworking/lumberjack... had a theif too and a third that he used as a healer with ghost speak. Then me, I had my mage/tamer, swordsman, theif and my tracker! Tracking was pretty enjoyable at first, but I ended up enjoying taming more. Was fun to go out and tame some mounts for people that they hadn't seen before and sell them at the bank. 

    i miss those days :)

     

    As do I! I hate them too because its like having the best sandwich ever and never being able to have it again. All the ingredients are there, but apparently its too hard to put together :(

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by madazz
     

    When something becomes radically different from the genre it spawned from it becomes its own genre. You like a different breed of games altogether. Not MMO's. MMO's are already highly defined. Your wants do not coincide with the MMO genre. They coincide with co-op and single player games.

    Who cares what genre the games are in if they are fun.

    If you are so hung up on what they are called, try to get the whole industry change MMO to something else. When you are successful, i will use the new term.

    If STO, DCUO, PS2, DDO ... oh and the upcoming Marvel Heroes are still in the MMO genre, i am playing MMOs.

    And who says MMO has no co-op and SP gameplay? I am playing STO mission like a SP game last night.

  • MeriliremMerilirem Member Posts: 77

    I felt this thread to be of value to my own machinations http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/371070/page/1

    His question shows great insight into people. I tend to be unable to ask the right questions alot of the time and his is proving to elicit very worthwhile responses from the community. Many of which I agree with and have been attempting to probe with my own threads. Although in a slightly different manner, I feel it shares common ground.

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • tollboothtollbooth Member CommonPosts: 298
    This is something that pissed me off to no end in GW2.  Everyone is THE HERO.  Not even A hero just The Hero like the rest of the people playing the game are not even there. 
  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly Member UncommonPosts: 734

    I think I need whole list for not to be bored. =D

    I enjoy a bit of fight (better inside dungeon then dumb repetitive quests); enjoy good story line and cut scenes; then explorations, discovery and such; then why not crafting; after that I can enjoy fishing if it designed in nice and relax way; I would love to enjoy my house too, take care and bring new design there, may be have garden and grow nice flowers; I would love to make changes of my avatar, new look means less boredom and more enjoyment; trade itself I don't like but "explore" shops and action house, pretty much and make good money out of it.

    I enjoy games where you can do a lot of different activities, only are not many of such games, so when I'm telling it has no content or boring, people think I troll them.

    But all I want is game with large and good designed content, like WoW and very few others.

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • AgentAnarkiiAgentAnarkii Member UncommonPosts: 173
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly
    I want to be the dude playing a mean cowbell

    This haha

    but seriously, i'd want to be an ex-ranger, who got fed up with the crooked ass king and left to estabilish his own tavern in some foreign land. And eventually when the crooked ass king comes to invade the land the peoples of said landcome to him for his help and he reluctantly says yes, not because he wants to help, but because he hates that damn king. 

  • Baramos79Baramos79 Member Posts: 73
    I earned my place, among the masses, I am truly singular through my own effort and skill, unique title/position.
  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Member Posts: 315
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Who cares what genre the games are in if they are fun.

    If you are so hung up on what they are called, try to get the whole industry change MMO to something else. When you are successful, i will use the new term.

    If STO, DCUO, PS2, DDO ... oh and the upcoming Marvel Heroes are still in the MMO genre, i am playing MMOs.

    And who says MMO has no co-op and SP gameplay? I am playing STO mission like a SP game last night.

    When the current MMO industry starts being sustainably successful, you have an argument.

    The very fact that nomenclature is being used as a diversion forecasts the inevitable fail of a development strategy.  People don't like being fooled, especially in their recreational activities.  It's best to call a spade a spade, and calling 8-player instanced combat an "MMO' defies every rule of nomenclature that exists.

    Plus, we all know that as soon as someone tries to set themself apart and claim to be "old-style" massively-multiplayer, the parasites are just bright enough to recognize the name change and show up there, regardless.

    It really isn't about the name of the genre.  It's that some players have found a way to feed off from other people not even playing their same game.  Until the parasites are dealt with, the hosts will never have a home.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    I do have a question regarding the op's sig:

    "If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?"

    When you can do it better, feel free to step up. Perhaps someone will even pay you to do so.

    Until then, get cause and effect placed properly. You aren't "let"ting him design your world. You are, in fact, paying for the privledge of enjoying his.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Member Posts: 315
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    When you can do it better, feel free to step up. Perhaps someone will even pay you to do so.  Until then, get cause and effect placed properly. You aren't "let"ting him design your world. You are, in fact, paying for the privledge of enjoying his.

    As players, we are in a general sense, the investors of it all.  Some projects are currently being entirely funded by player dollars before the game is even released.  It's called kick-starting.

    So your comment is off-base for at least four different reasons:

    1) The comment was targetted towards a developer audience, not an audience composed of himself (very few comments are ever self-intended)

    2) The point was mostly that software programming expertise does not necessarily equate to game design expertise.  The point is unecessary because very few game development companies actually have programmers designing their game.  They generally have separate game design and tech development departments.  The sad part is that the programmers would probably do a better job in the vast majority of current cases (meaning the game design field has been infiltrated by the most incompetent of all potential employees).

    3) As players of what should have been a player-driven game genre, designing our own worlds should have been part of the package.  It's called DM-ing, or modding, depending on the setup.

    4) Some MMOs are currently free, so we aren't paying anyone and they aren't getting reimbursement.  Who develops what still has an impact on what enjoyment is derived.

    I do admit that your unintelligible trolling is some of the more eloquent I've seen.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,329
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    I do have a question regarding the op's sig:

    "If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?"

    When you can do it better, feel free to step up. Perhaps someone will even pay you to do so.

    Until then, get cause and effect placed properly. You aren't "let"ting him design your world. You are, in fact, paying for the privledge of enjoying his.

    Privilege? You mean to say that if I go to McD's and buy a burger it's my privilege to pay for it? Even if the burger they give me turns out to be pink slime?  Is it my privilege to pay for that too?

    Once upon a time....

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Privilege? You mean to say that if I go to McD's and buy a burger it's my privilege to pay for it? Even if the burger they give me turns out to be pink slime?  Is it my privilege to pay for that too?

    Yep. You're payihg for it, you must desire it. If you could make your own that was more delicious, why are you not doing so?

    Not quite how business works. They make a product. If you want it, you pay for it. If you don't, then...don't.

    Telling the drug dealer how awful his drugs are while holding out the cash for more with shaking hands doesn't really convince much of anyone.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Member Posts: 315
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Not quite how business works. They make a product. If you want it, you pay for it. If you don't, then...don't.

    We don't, and they go out of business.  It's an old story in the MMO industry.

    And it's not the only way things work.  Not even close.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Raithe-Nor
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Not quite how business works. They make a product. If you want it, you pay for it. If you don't, then...don't.

    We don't, and they go out of business.  It's an old story in the MMO industry.

    And it's not the only way things work.  Not even close.

    How is it inaccurate? Were armed gunmen waiting at the game store to force your last purchase or something?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Raithe-NorRaithe-Nor Member Posts: 315
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    How is it inaccurate? Were armed gunmen waiting at the game store to force your last purchase or something?

    Well, limiting myself to software:

    1) Some software is pre-funded, then released into the public domain or under public license.

    2) Some software is subcription-based, meaning you continually pay for a product or not, depending on how it meets your expectations.  The software may evolve from something you were happy to pay for in the beginning to something you are not happy paying for.  Customer retention and brand loyalty are real phenomena that development companies should at least pay attention to.

    3) Some software is modifiable, allows mods.  The players are given the tools to design their own applications.

    4) Some software is created entirely through contributions from open-source participants.  Sourceforge and the like...

    The belief that software is only created and supported by large companies who market based on demographics and profit alone is a position of severe ignorance.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Raithe-Nor
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    How is it inaccurate? Were armed gunmen waiting at the game store to force your last purchase or something?

    Well, limiting myself to software:

    1) Some software is pre-funded, then released into the public domain or under public license.

    2) Some software is subcription-based, meaning you continually pay for a product or not, depending on how it meets your expectations.  The software may evolve from something you were happy to pay for in the beginning to something you are not happy paying for.  Customer retention and brand loyalty are real phenomena that development companies should at least pay attention too.

    3) Some software is modifiable, allows mods.  The players are given the tools to design their own applications.

    4) Some software is created entirely through contributions from open-source participants.  Sourceforge and the like...

    The belief that software is only created and supported by large companies who market based on demographics and profit alone is a position of severe ignorance.

    I don't see a single thing in the statements above that would lead anyone to believe that taking your patronage elsewhere wouldn't be casting a vote against, regardless of the size of company. Herring colored red?

    But if you don't take your patronage elsewhere, while indulging in nonstop forum yackyack, you just might win a lifetime futile rage award.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • NOS44NOS44 Member Posts: 6

    @OP, Yes isn't it sad when destruction is the only path to progression.  Why not be a blacksmith that forges the best steel available to warriors?  Or maybe be the best alchemist in the region that can concoct the potions needed for a political coup's success?  Or maybe you are the best scout of a remote area that can provide escort through the wilds?  I'm thinking of the Sherpas of Everest in the last scenario.   

    The point is why not play an important role in the world without having to be the soldier or the hero or the king?  Surely there are more that aspire to this role in mmos.  If anyone knows of any such game, please broadcast it.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by Raithe-Nor
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Not quite how business works. They make a product. If you want it, you pay for it. If you don't, then...don't.

    We don't, and they go out of business.  It's an old story in the MMO industry.

    And it's not the only way things work.  Not even close.

    Sometimes.

    In this wacky business, I agree.  Sometimes we don't, and they go out of business.

    But sometimes we don't, and they remain in business (SWG's NGE).

    And there are some instances where we do, and they still go out of business (City of Heroes).

    But the one thing we never seem to talk about is how important it is that we, by paying, do buy what we like, and we, by paying should remain "in business."  Because the "business" I'm referring to is the business of players to enjoy the things they buy and pay for.  Which, to me, is only common sense.

    Except in this hobby, where we seem to care more about our publishers' money making schemes than the business of our fellow gamers to enjoy the things they enjoy.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

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