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Christopher Tolkien speaks out after 40 years...

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  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Member Posts: 489

    I'm glad I read the books. Honestly The Hobbit was one of those shields against the world that I needed when I was 11.

    I had fun with the films, and thought they were well done. There's some things from the books I'd like to have seen and a few things extra I'd rather not have seen. Still, can't say they're not my favorite films from the 2000s.

    Most of the video games have been good. I enjoy the MMO despite questioning some of the liberties taken with the lore. But then I think back on it.. Why not giant bugs? Since there are dragons, orcs, and such also in the world.

    Really we have to remember that FICTION isn't supported by FACT, it's supported by EMOTION. Seeing the Eagles called on for support by Gandalf, seeing the fearsome hordes of The Enemy tearing at great ancient walls, sensing the lust of great power within the form of a Ring. 

    I've emotionally seen and felt all of it in each of the formats that Tolkien's work have spread to.

    a yo ho ho

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072

    Only thing I care about is if the movies are good, this includes the movies having to be recognized with their source material close enough.

     

    I havent seen The Hobbit yet, but I think the LotR movies were really good, high quality fantasy that we have far too little in movies, and series, and they also worked very fine as LotR. The story was there, the characters were there, all in all a good job from Jackson. I'm not interested if every detail and scene are pinpoint accurate from the book, or even included, when looking at the big picture.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    Hopefully, it'll be another 40 years before he speaks again.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • HomituHomitu Member UncommonPosts: 2,030
    Originally posted by Banquetto

    Well J.R.R. Tolkien's great-grandson Royd Tolkien loved the movies.

    "I was beyond excited just to go on set and see behind the scenes. To watch how such a colossal film is so intricately crafted and pieced together was inspirational and planted a seed in me that has since grown into a love of film production and a desire to reach the heights scaled by Peter Jackson. It was one of the best experiences I've ever had."

    http://www.smh.com.au/travel/why-i-love-new-zealand-tolkiens-great-grandson-20121217-2bisg.html

    Is his opinion less valid than Christopher Tolkien's?

    Everyone knows children are complete authorities on their fathers' lives, but grandchildren don't know crap.  

  • rodingorodingo Member RarePosts: 2,870
    If people would pay attention to what information is posted before or after a movie starts, they will read that the movie is BASED on the book, not an UNABRIDGED version.  Some liberties have to be taken with events and characters to make the story flow on screen and to keep the movie running time less than 3 hours.  Movie goers patience and studio dollars are major factors for keeping the movies under 3 hours, in theaters at least.  The best they can do with these types of book to movie situations is hit the major plot points while keeping as close to the source material as possible.  I don't know why this isn't common sense amongst people who make these types of complaints.  As far as Tolkien Jr being dissapointed or the Tolkien Estate, who cares?  J.R.R. was the author of those stories, not his estate.  They are just family members and lawyers making a massive passive income off of a past great writer's work.  They had no idea about all of the information and imagination in J.R.R.'s head that he still had for Middle Earth.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • Cameron27Cameron27 Member Posts: 142

    I don't know why everyone is hating on this Tolkien guy. From a story telling persepctive Peter Jackson ruined a lot of characters and scenes in the final two films. The way he overdid Galadriel and Arwen cramming in worthless Rivendell flashbacks.

    Sending Elves to Helms Deep.

    Making Frodo show the One Ring to a ringwraith in Osgiliath, but then Sauron still thinks Pippin somehow has the Ring in Rohan.

    Frodo telling Sam to go home as if that's even a realistic option, and Sam listening until he finds the bread at the bottom of the stairs lol.

    Bringing the Oathbreakers to Minas Tirith. Waiting for the RotK to reforge the shards of Narsil.

    Making Lord Denethor unwilling to light the beacons. Having Theodon unwilling to go to Gondor's aid.

    Over conflicted the character of Faramir (He was supposed to be a foil to Boromir and shw that not all men fall into temptation), then over stressed the Denethor's disapproval of him, which led to a scene where about 200 horsemen charge toward Osgiliath in an unexplained suicide mission.

    Missed one of the major points of the book by leaving out the scouring of the Shire. (Although this one I didn't mind as much.)

    Failed to develop Merry and Pippen's character arcs, by having Merry stab the Ringwraith and then stay behind, and then NOT have Pippen stab the troll when he goes to battle.

    Having the Ents not want to fight Saruman just ti giver Merry and Pippen something to do.

    These are just off the top of my head...There're definitely more, but you see Jackson could have chosen to do things by the book, but he chose to do things differently for no other reason that I can surmise other than to put his own stamp on the story.

     

     

    "I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,610
    Originally posted by Cameron27

    I don't know why everyone is hating on this Tolkien guy. From a story telling persepctive Peter Jackson ruined a lot of characters and scenes in the final two films.

    It's because Christopher Tolkien has no interest in seeing ANY film adaptation of the Hobbit or LOTR.  In his mind nobody could do the books justice and they shouldn't try.  That's a bit closed minded and selfish.

  • Cameron27Cameron27 Member Posts: 142
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by Cameron27

    I don't know why everyone is hating on this Tolkien guy. From a story telling persepctive Peter Jackson ruined a lot of characters and scenes in the final two films.

    It's because Christopher Tolkien has no interest in seeing ANY film adaptation of the Hobbit or LOTR.  In his mind nobody could do the books justice and they shouldn't try.  That's a bit close minded and selfish.

     

    Well they say hindsight is 20/20

    "I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob

  • dogdersROCdogdersROC Member UncommonPosts: 21
    In some ways, it is no different  what Chris did with compiling his father's work than Jackson adapting his own skewed stories. I am sure there are merits to his argument, but all I feel for him is .... STFU you BEEYOTCH!
  • sapphensapphen Member UncommonPosts: 911
    Originally posted by MaxJac
    Originally posted by VassagoMael
    carry on enjoying the two different formats while respecting the limitations of each.

    Well put.

    I agree.  The movies are a masterpiece in their own rights, as well as the books.  Yes, they are little bit different and somewhat commericalized but it's almost impossible to make exact copies of the same story between two different mediums - only a fool of a took would think otherwise.

    I think the movies did the books justice and Christopher Tolkien should be proud to have his father's story made into a collection of great films... at least it wasn't butchered like Eragon's onscreen translation.

  • n00bitn00bit Member UncommonPosts: 345
    I like to think of the book as Bilbo's original copy, but then as time goes on he decides to embelish it a bit and rewrites a new copy with a lot more action; that's the movie.
  • GinazGinaz Member RarePosts: 2,366
    Some of the responses here make my neck beard tingle.

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • DraemosDraemos Member UncommonPosts: 1,521

    They actually did a fantastic job of keeping LOTR pretty close to the books.  Christopher just comes off as a pretentious intellectual douche who doesn't truly understand why people like his fathers works.  For him it's all about the mythos and world creation, he doesn't recognize the roll the adventure part takes.

     

     

  • I think J.R.R Tolkien would have loved the movies, including The Hobbit.
  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785
    Originally posted by Axxar
    I think J.R.R Tolkien would have loved the movies, including The Hobbit.

    Agreed, I think his family is still living in his shadow and complaining out of jealousy.

    They seem to forget that Tolkien didn't write the books because he wanted to be remembed for his literary work, he wrote them to create a world for his languages to live in.  He was a linguist who managed to become the grandfather of modern fantasy by accident.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Cameron27

    I don't know why everyone is hating on this Tolkien guy.

    Chris is angry that he failed to negotiate as sweet a deal as Rowling. His descendants are only fully funded for two more generations, he wanted three.

    What's not to dislike? :shrug:

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • DraemosDraemos Member UncommonPosts: 1,521
    Originally posted by aktalat
    Originally posted by Draemos

    They actually did a fantastic job of keeping LOTR pretty close to the books.  Christopher just comes off as a pretentious intellectual douche who doesn't truly understand why people like his fathers works.  For him it's all about the mythos and world creation, he doesn't recognize the roll the adventure part takes.

     

     

    Huh?

    They didn't do a single part from the books at all, did you actually watch any of the movies? Maybe 1/6 was based on the book, the rest got completely chopped-out, and the 1/6 that was in there was TOTALLY rewritten using different dialgues and different settings and everything else. 

    When I saw The Hobbit it just about made me laugh it was so stupid. Nothing to do with the book at all, aside from a vaguely 'middle earth' sorta-kinda setting. Granted they didnt have a special cameo with Harry Potter, followed by an epic battle with Godzilla and the Ents of Fanghorn Forest and the Incredible Hulk, or an epic sorcery rap-music cameo using spliced footage of Adam Yauch and dancing Orcs holding McDonalds 'happy meals'.... But they did just about everything except that to murder any semblance to the original writing.

    Where the hell is Azog riding around on a white warg with one hand missing in book? Oh right, never. Where does Gandalf duel the Great Goblin and stab him while making cutesy Potter-esqe remarks? Oh right, never. Where is the Goblin Town in the Misty Mountains that's completely tunnels and caves ONLY, not wodden bridges like a crap Disney theme park? Oh right, never. Even the original beginning where they meet gets butchered... where are the scenes of the dwarves all smoking their heads off like in the book? Oh right, not there, smoking is 'taboo' you don't want little Potter pisspants seeing people doing something like smoke. I could go on scene by scene by scene if you'd like, because I literally cannot find EVEN ONE single scene in The Hobbit that has any semblance to the book at all.

    It's like Evequest: The Movie or something... Very disappointed, even more than with the LOTR films assuming that was even possible. Christopher Tolkein's complaints are 100% valid, because ANY AND ALL complaints about The Hobbit movie are valid.

    Huh?  Did you actually read my comment.  I said LOTR, not the hobbit.  The hobbit is obviously not sticking to the story, it would only have lasted one movie.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207
    Lol at 1/6th

    Hyperbole much?
  • erictlewiserictlewis Member UncommonPosts: 3,021


    Originally posted by Draemos
    They actually did a fantastic job of keeping LOTR pretty close to the books.  Christopher just comes off as a pretentious intellectual douche who doesn't truly understand why people like his fathers works.  For him it's all about the mythos and world creation, he doesn't recognize the roll the adventure part takes.  

    What???

    Runekeeper for one were never in the book. Loremaster aso like a wizard class running around in droves not in the books. Thousands of hobbits of on an adventure not in the book. Elves in great quantities wandering all around. However keeping with the books, no they did not there has been tons of discussions in the lotro forums about how lore breaking the game was compared to the books.

  • pwainpwain Member UncommonPosts: 115
    Originally posted by erictlewis

     


    Originally posted by Draemos
    They actually did a fantastic job of keeping LOTR pretty close to the books.  Christopher just comes off as a pretentious intellectual douche who doesn't truly understand why people like his fathers works.  For him it's all about the mythos and world creation, he doesn't recognize the roll the adventure part takes.

     

     

     


     

    What???

    Runekeeper for one were never in the book. Loremaster aso like a wizard class running around in droves not in the books. Thousands of hobbits of on an adventure not in the book. Elves in great quantities wandering all around. However keeping with the books, no they did not there has been tons of discussions in the lotro forums about how lore breaking the game was compared to the books.

    There is a quest where the player have to kill 6-7 people in the forrest to bring back a handkerchief. Lotro is not close to the books, not one bit.

  • ScarfeScarfe Member Posts: 281

    Didn't he pull together that god awful half finished book his gramps wrote?  Its on my bookshelf but can't be bothered to go to it to check the title.  Think he should have some kudos for boring us all to tears. 

    Went to check but wasn't there, think it is the first book I have ever burned, ironically F451 was there. 

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,749
    Originally posted by erictlewis

     


    Originally posted by Draemos
    They actually did a fantastic job of keeping LOTR pretty close to the books.  Christopher just comes off as a pretentious intellectual douche who doesn't truly understand why people like his fathers works.  For him it's all about the mythos and world creation, he doesn't recognize the roll the adventure part takes.

     

     

     


     

    What???

    Runekeeper for one were never in the book. Loremaster aso like a wizard class running around in droves not in the books. Thousands of hobbits of on an adventure not in the book. Elves in great quantities wandering all around. However keeping with the books, no they did not there has been tons of discussions in the lotro forums about how lore breaking the game was compared to the books.

    While you're somewhat right, Draemos's post was referring LotR and not LotRO. It doesn't help of course on the fact that the whole post is dumb :) since it IS all about myth and world and language creation, along with history and a lot of other stuff far beyond action and CGI combat. (don't get me wrong, I love the movies, just love the books better. And LotRO too :) )

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser Member Posts: 1,873
    Originally posted by grafh

    Money isnt everything to some people. I think i would not support any director who would change my story from what it was, to an action flick.

    The Hobbit is my favorite book, and i dont want to see the movie cause i know it will dissapoint me if i compare it to the book.

    Then again thats just my personal opinion. 

    Money isn't everything for some people because those some people already have it.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

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  • ScarfeScarfe Member Posts: 281
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by grafh

    Money isnt everything to some people. I think i would not support any director who would change my story from what it was, to an action flick.

    The Hobbit is my favorite book, and i dont want to see the movie cause i know it will dissapoint me if i compare it to the book.

    Then again thats just my personal opinion. 

    Money isn't everything for some people because those some people already have it.

    so true, so true... do you look like that old geezer out of karate kid?

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270

    Obviously he is slightly confused about how movies work.

    Movies can never replace the depth of books, they simply arent long enough. The LOTR movies could never have worked any other way.

    Did they miss some stuff I wish they hadn't? Sure. I mean, Tom Bombadil and the barrows was one of my favourite parts.

    Did the story not work because of it? No.

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