Grind, plain and simple. It would be nice to have a game that doesnt require you to bash rats until you hit the max level, and then be able to go and grind more to get leet loot. Then after that all there is to do is start a new toon.
They need to break away from the EQ formula. There all the same just a different skin.
The fact that most mmorpgs are getting more and more 'dumbed down' Bring back the heyday of UO.
No I am not a pvper.. i could care a less about it.. but MAN the UO 'sandbox' was a million times better then the 'treadmill' most games are doing today
I hate MMORPGs that lack character customization, lack of player housing and lack of elements to improve roleplaying.
Gameplay itself can only go to a certain extent! On a day where I'm sick of grinding, doing quests, gaining XP, looting items and farming... I just wanna ENJOY the virtual world I am in.
In Star Wars Galaxies, when I was fed up for grinding, I could decorate my house, dance with hot twi'lek chicks, craft items, and roleplay.
WoW... since I'm getting bored lately of just grinding, looting... there's nothing to do when I just need a break. So I play GTA: San Andreas on PC... it sucks I can't do more with WoW and I really hate that.
The fact that every single player has their own idea of what the game is *really* about, and a sizeable percentage try to whinge and moan to get it changed, then whinge and moan more when it isn't.
That and carebears, players that want everything to be non-competitive, handed to them on a plate.
---sig---
PvE in general is pretty lame, if you think long and hard about it. You are spending your time beating a severely gimped AI that would lose to a well trained monkey. Best not to think too long and hard why you are wasting time playing games in general actually...
The laser beam focus on combat mixed with the lack of an in depth combat system. I've played all kinds of MMORPGs and 90% of them only allow you to advance through combat. This wouldn't be so bad if combat wasn't so stat / loot driven and boring. Yes there is crafting but I have yet to see a MMO crafting system that isn't a chore to use. Single player RPGs (Vagrant Story, Monster Hunter, etc..) have good crafting systems but MMORPGs have yet to get it right.
Vend-O-Quests that involve fetching, killing and crafting. Come on folks!! There has to be some other means of conflict resolution!! How about a town casino? What about a Theft job that requires the use of a good stealth system or Charisma? How about a lateral thinking puzzle every now and again? Is it too much to ask for a little more gameplay variety? Hell, mini-games and non-combative sporting events would make a nice break from the monotony.
I also hate that player run events are limited to PvP fests and crafting compitions. Giving players some limited GM tools and the ability to run temporary content would go a long way to lengthing the lifespan of these games. It would also take the burden of creating new content off of the support team that already has it's hands full with bug tracking and griefers. If player run content kept Quake, Unreal Tournament, Half-Life, Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind, Star Craft, War Craft and a host of other single player games afloat for years then it can damn well keep a MMORPG going for twice as long.
I hate the fact that I have to work for a living. I should be paid for 8 hours a day to play the MMORPG of my choice
Nothing about MMORPG's annoys me except lag, and the lag monster is like a level 200+++++ so no one will ever kill it. Maybe once I become Emperor in Roma Victor.....
I'll agree that l33t d00ds are ruining it. It's just incredibaly disorenting to hear "sut up u gai faqy noob. Ur a retarded faq, go ho//e to ur mom tet I did last night." whenever you tell them that typing "u" to save time and then "//" instead of "w" defeats the purpose.
The lack of depth in World of Warcraft's character creation.
How everyone is the same in WoW. Improve gear. Improve gear. Improve gear. bleh
How WoW's loot system supports greed.
People that use real money to buy online items.
Griefers
Matrix Online's empty servers.
SOE's bastardization of the Star Wars Universe
SOE's Holocron debacle.
Gotta work a part time job & play MMO's at least 40 hours a week to be really successful. Basically where's the love for the casual gamers?
I'm sure there are more but those are the one's that I can think of at this particular moment. I'd mention Chinese Gold farmers but they don't piss me off as badly as the little bastards that actually ruin the online economy by supporting them. I mean, the Chinese guys are just trying to support their families or whatever. If you play WoW take a look at the price of some of the stuff on the auction house on your server if you have any doubt.
What I dislike the most in MMORPGs is all Devs fixation on making people grind rather then add in some quality quest with a bit of story in them. ALL MMORPGs are guilty of this. Yes even the much beloved WoW.
WoW - no real depth or story just a bunch of kill task
SWG - completely skips any purpose and put you straight to grinding for the sake of gain XP and nothing else.
EQ2 - Same as SWG.
L2 - pretty much the same, there is a purpose in L2 however....survival lol
GW is pretty much on track to creating some really fun worthwile gaming, to bad its all instanced
There should be a distint difference between fps and Mmorpgs
a variety in play styles that allow for more then just grouping dynamics/ and or combat only
if a deveolper decides 2 years in, to completely change game play, then i want to see more along the lines of what ashrons call did . Have the orignal game on some serves and if folks want to try the new
game put that one on different servers
Community, if a company wants a strong community then at least offer polls and have them matter
Don't willy nilly chang game play every singal patch right after a major over hall
Stable code, accurate bug fixing, and not allow to totaly ignore impossible game play because of bugs, and a horrid patch
While expansions are fine and dandy, i would like to see community customers refuse to support them for whatever reason till basic core game issues are fixed
Deveolpers not make wild promises to one paticular class then ignore them the next 2 1/2 years
Never ever want to see 1 alpha class again in a mmorpg
Hate one class having content that other classes cannot have axcess to, unless it is level specific
loot should not be given to one specific class , while loot is pretty much non exsitant in other areas of the game
balance shouldn't be formost in any game because for the most part as soon as something is added to one class it changes consitancy, i would rather see a finished polished product
tokens, coins training changes offered at regular intervals if game play is majorly changed by deveolpers rendering class useless
Interaction with game community about the direction the game is headed
1. The grind 2. The time required 3. Most mmo's being work, not fun 4. Instancing of the game world. Dungeons are ok 5. Gold farmers 6. Carebear haters - pls get a life! 7. No seamless game world 9. Free/Korean mmo's being a heaven for hackers, scammers, farmers, bots and cheaters
Originally posted by Pillar I hate carebears. It's a game, why not risk everything? Most carebears haven't even exprienced "open" PvP, yet they still act like little wussies. You say get a life to carebears haters, I say get a life to carebears.
I don't see why people want to spend 3000 hours of their life in game. And then loose all they achieved because of lag or some asshole of a ganker.
Your attitude is a prime example of how most MMOs make equipment worth too much. You should be spending 3000 hours getting your character awesome, not getting the best armor in the world.
You should rely on your skills : armor like 75% to 25%. Instead most games are all about the armor.... That's stupid to me.
Originally posted by Xanoth Irreversable Choices : I can't stand the idea that any choice i make would result in a set in stone change in my characters progression, something that i can never go back on (other than by making a new character), simply because thats exactly what i do... "ooops didnt mean to do that... cant go back, time to roll a new toon, 2 months work in the bin, thanks games designers". whats even better is the whole "pick a class" aspect of EQ2 some amazing idea that was, the achtypes give no real inclination of what the classes are like to play (other than the conjurer class quest mebies). i really hated that, the amont of characters i deleted and remade to be a slightly differnt class or sub class because its impossible to get a feel for it. but this leads me nicely on to my next two pet hates... Levels : The whole idea of levels in my opinion is very dated and long overdue a replacement, plenty of none MMORPGs have done so and enjoyed great success... ala Morrowind, although i'd like it elaborated upon. Who knows Roma Victora may well deliver... I want a game to feel at least pseudo-realistic, yes its a game but the whole idea of "DING! you leveled up!" breaks immersion better than just about anything else could. its like the game proclaiming that your playing a game. the more mechanics you hide from players the more they can get into a game is the way i see it. I'd also like to think that my actions in a game affected my characters progression. Classes : I'm on a roll with hating the fundamental "basics" here thats for sure. but again lets go down this pseudo-realistic path, and why we have to choose a "roll" which limits our progress advancement and options for the rest of our playing time. i'd much rather see a load of skill tree's that may or may not combine and merge to creat semi hybrid rolls/skills, idealy they would combine, but still just a system based on skill trees that are open and accessable to all would be a great start from the "im a warrior" days. i long for the days when YOUR NOT A CLASS!
I may well be a minority here, and fully expect that i am, but they are my biggest pet hates, possibley in the wrong order though, as i think i hate classes more than levels, but i think they go hand in hand really.
OMG you would almost love Ragnarok Online 2. You can freely switch classes and use select skills from other classes; the power of your character comes from how you combine the skills since you can only use a limited amount of skills at a given point in time.
Only problem is there are levels, and not just one;each character has a base level, a level for each class, and a level for all upper body armor they posses, and all weapons they posses; with possible other levels in other game play aspects. You might totally hate that part since it isnt just levels. Its levels to the extreme.
I hate PvP. No worse feeling than having some young teen idiot with self esteem issues trying to prove something by sneaking up on someone much lower in level than he is and stealing everything he has. PvP griefers never pick fair fights. They prey on people that cant dedicate 10 hours a day to gaming. PvPers say they like the rush and challenge of combat with actual gamers. Well either challenge someone to a Duel or take it to an Arena. What does sneaking up on an unsuspecting lower level player and sucker punching him prove? That you're too afraid of a fair fight?
I also hate communities full of kids. Granted not all children are bad. Some are actually really great. But it's the other 99% that ruin the game by doing things such as begging , whining and ninja looting.
Originally posted by GRIMACHU 1. Lack of roleplay. 2. 1337s 3. The dull and uninspired expectations of the standard MMORPG audience and the McDonaldising of most games. (Everything the same). 4. Lack of risk-taking and experimentation by MMORPG companies. 5. Pointless PvP. 6. The forums for most games which are just full of whiners. 7. Lack of real death, or penalties for murderers. 8. MMORPGs that aren't. 9. The fact that most seem to be stuck on the fantasy bandwagon. 10. Levels. 11. Classes. 12. Outdated pseudo-D&D system engines.
Quoted for truth. Its even a bit frighteing how close my list is to yours. Though two points are debatable.
4. You can't blame the companies for wanting to make cash. Only the audience has the ultimate say. It's the same as with movies atm - the amount of crap that is spilled out on us is amazing, yet people (the massses) don't seem to object, so the (mainstream) movie makers don't give a damn about the quality of their movie. If you don't like it then don't play it, and reward more unique mmo's with your presence (admittedly atm not many), then we can hope for more interesting games in the future.
7. This will be always hard to implement without any arbitary restrictions. I see the problem, but the community has to be the ultimate solution.
------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Things I hate about MMORPGs (going from the topic title):
1) l33t-speaking juvenile deliquents who expect to kill, kill, kill and think that's all an mmoRPG is about; 2) the lack of RPG in most MMOrpgs out there (having statistics and "increasing them" isn't RPG, that's just having the window-dressing; having quests can be, if they aren't also window-dressing, a la "kill 5 bunnies" at level 1 which becomes the oh-so-intimidating "kill 5 hysterical bunnies with big tails" at level 5"). 3) the ongoing elimination of actual exploration in games, to cater to the short-attention-span crowd, who whine if they have to walk fifty feet in a game. 4) moronic hand-feeding, or dumbing down of conventions, for no real quality sake and solely to get in the short-attention-span and l33t- types. AKA EQ2, where you are force-fed your skills as you level up, you don't get a choice in them, you don't get to configure your skills to be different than anyone else (variety in EQ2 is "hey, I've got Adept 1 'ice spell', and you've only got Apprentice 2, hah hah!" -- yeah, whatever).
5) lack of continuous content feed -- Let's make one thing clear: "content" is not "fixing the crap you released broken". Content is new "stuff" -- quests, items, skills, etc, and preferably offering dynamic content, which would be new twists on the existing skill system, changing the geography where it makes sense, adding/improving weather or daring to try an actual seasonal system (hey, it's not like someone did that years ago, oh, wait, AC1 had it in 1999). And, as part of that: 6) Quests, and adding content that includes quests like these, that are nothing but the treadmill "go kill 5 fuzzy bunnies" that "evolve" with you so higher levels are "go kill 15 fuzzy, evil-smiling, BIG bunnies". Let's actually think up something akin to the quality of the solo quests in DAOC (even the intro, where you capture an evil winged beastie, which leads to an exploration of why they're there and stopping them) or many others instead of just doing ten-thousand retreads. That's not to say that kill quests aren't appropriate -- but having the bulk of your game be nothing but them just shows off how utterly lacking in creativity the devs are. 7) crafting -- yes, Virginia, there is a Crafting Santa. You can have great flexibility in the system, which a lot of individualisation to every item built, and not have to be moronically complicated (aka EQ2), and not be moronically simplistic and lacking in individualisation (aka WoW). Games that get it right: Horizons (build/destroy actual structures in the game world, including your own house; specialise each and every item by mix/matching materials and dyes and so forth; etc.); DAOC (to some extent; at least you can customize an item's look with dye, which is better than either of the two "leaders of the field", EQ2 and WoW, where everything is what it is and you best like that 'cause it ain't changing) and others like EQ1 have evolved into having individual customizing of items/equipment/etc. Even something as simple as AC1's "scavenging" system is an improvement. Games that fail utterly: WoW (er, take 2 chunks of rock, make them "refined chunks of rock", stand near forge, click "make"; that's it, never gets any more complicated except by adding bigger numbers), EQ2 (vast quantity of what you can build, with zip in the way of customization, all to produce mostly oils and liquids and paper to use in creating actual items that then are exactly like the eight trillion made by everyone else), and all those like them.
8) PvP without a Purpose. DAOC perfected the concept with Realm-versus-Realm. Others have added actual reputation systems to provide a realistic world-feel to it. Then there's WoW, where we reward you for bad behavior.
Comments
Grind, plain and simple. It would be nice to have a game that doesnt require you to bash rats until you hit the max level, and then be able to go and grind more to get leet loot. Then after that all there is to do is start a new toon.
They need to break away from the EQ formula. There all the same just a different skin.
The fact that most mmorpgs are getting more and more 'dumbed down' Bring back the heyday of UO.
No I am not a pvper.. i could care a less about it.. but MAN the UO 'sandbox' was a million times better then the 'treadmill' most games are doing today
I hate MMORPGs that lack character customization, lack of player housing and lack of elements to improve roleplaying.
Gameplay itself can only go to a certain extent! On a day where I'm sick of grinding, doing quests, gaining XP, looting items and farming... I just wanna ENJOY the virtual world I am in.
In Star Wars Galaxies, when I was fed up for grinding, I could decorate my house, dance with hot twi'lek chicks, craft items, and roleplay.
WoW... since I'm getting bored lately of just grinding, looting... there's nothing to do when I just need a break. So I play GTA: San Andreas on PC... it sucks I can't do more with WoW and I really hate that.
___________ ___ __ _ _ _
Stealth - Ambush - Hemorrhage - Sinister Strike x2 - Cold Blood - Eviscerate - Vanish - Preparation - Cold Blood - Ambush - ... you're dead! :P
The fact that every single player has their own idea of what the game is *really* about, and a sizeable percentage try to whinge and moan to get it changed, then whinge and moan more when it isn't.
That and carebears, players that want everything to be non-competitive, handed to them on a plate.
---sig---
PvE in general is pretty lame, if you think long and hard about it. You are spending your time beating a severely gimped AI that would lose to a well trained monkey. Best not to think too long and hard why you are wasting time playing games in general actually...
The laser beam focus on combat mixed with the lack of an in depth combat system. I've played all kinds of MMORPGs and 90% of them only allow you to advance through combat. This wouldn't be so bad if combat wasn't so stat / loot driven and boring. Yes there is crafting but I have yet to see a MMO crafting system that isn't a chore to use. Single player RPGs (Vagrant Story, Monster Hunter, etc..) have good crafting systems but MMORPGs have yet to get it right.
Vend-O-Quests that involve fetching, killing and crafting. Come on folks!! There has to be some other means of conflict resolution!! How about a town casino? What about a Theft job that requires the use of a good stealth system or Charisma? How about a lateral thinking puzzle every now and again? Is it too much to ask for a little more gameplay variety? Hell, mini-games and non-combative sporting events would make a nice break from the monotony.
I also hate that player run events are limited to PvP fests and crafting compitions. Giving players some limited GM tools and the ability to run temporary content would go a long way to lengthing the lifespan of these games. It would also take the burden of creating new content off of the support team that already has it's hands full with bug tracking and griefers. If player run content kept Quake, Unreal Tournament, Half-Life, Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind, Star Craft, War Craft and a host of other single player games afloat for years then it can damn well keep a MMORPG going for twice as long.
I hate the fact that I have to work for a living. I should be paid for 8 hours a day to play the MMORPG of my choice
Nothing about MMORPG's annoys me except lag, and the lag monster is like a level 200+++++ so no one will ever kill it. Maybe once I become Emperor in Roma Victor.....
I'll agree that l33t d00ds are ruining it. It's just incredibaly disorenting to hear "sut up u gai faqy noob. Ur a retarded faq, go ho//e to ur mom tet I did last night." whenever you tell them that typing "u" to save time and then "//" instead of "w" defeats the purpose.
I hate (in no particular order):
I'm sure there are more but those are the one's that I can think of at this particular moment. I'd mention Chinese Gold farmers but they don't piss me off as badly as the little bastards that actually ruin the online economy by supporting them. I mean, the Chinese guys are just trying to support their families or whatever. If you play WoW take a look at the price of some of the stuff on the auction house on your server if you have any doubt.
What I dislike the most in MMORPGs is all Devs fixation on making people grind rather then add in some quality quest with a bit of story in them. ALL MMORPGs are guilty of this. Yes even the much beloved WoW.
WoW - no real depth or story just a bunch of kill task
SWG - completely skips any purpose and put you straight to grinding for the sake of gain XP and nothing else.
EQ2 - Same as SWG.
L2 - pretty much the same, there is a purpose in L2 however....survival lol
GW is pretty much on track to creating some really fun worthwile gaming, to bad its all instanced
There should be a distint difference between fps and Mmorpgs
a variety in play styles that allow for more then just grouping dynamics/ and or combat only
if a deveolper decides 2 years in, to completely change game play, then i want to see more along the lines of what ashrons call did . Have the orignal game on some serves and if folks want to try the new
game put that one on different servers
Community, if a company wants a strong community then at least offer polls and have them matter
Don't willy nilly chang game play every singal patch right after a major over hall
Stable code, accurate bug fixing, and not allow to totaly ignore impossible game play because of bugs, and a horrid patch
While expansions are fine and dandy, i would like to see community customers refuse to support them for whatever reason till basic core game issues are fixed
Deveolpers not make wild promises to one paticular class then ignore them the next 2 1/2 years
Never ever want to see 1 alpha class again in a mmorpg
Hate one class having content that other classes cannot have axcess to, unless it is level specific
loot should not be given to one specific class , while loot is pretty much non exsitant in other areas of the game
balance shouldn't be formost in any game because for the most part as soon as something is added to one class it changes consitancy, i would rather see a finished polished product
tokens, coins training changes offered at regular intervals if game play is majorly changed by deveolpers rendering class useless
Interaction with game community about the direction the game is headed
Decent customer service
mmorpgs- the model that years are needed to make a game allowing little creativity and too many clones.
That mobs are simple, all you do is kill a mob and character advance,
I can not stand games w/ bad communities.. (cough cough)WOW(cough)GW
I hate:
1. The grind
2. The time required
3. Most mmo's being work, not fun
4. Instancing of the game world. Dungeons are ok
5. Gold farmers
6. Carebear haters - pls get a life!
7. No seamless game world
9. Free/Korean mmo's being a heaven for hackers, scammers, farmers, bots and cheaters
I hate carebears. It's a game, why not risk everything? Most carebears haven't even exprienced "open" PvP, yet they still act like little wussies.
You say get a life to carebears haters, I say get a life to carebears.
I don't see why people want to spend 3000 hours of their life in game. And then loose all they achieved because of lag or some asshole of a ganker.
Your attitude is a prime example of how most MMOs make equipment worth too much. You should be spending 3000 hours getting your character awesome, not getting the best armor in the world.
You should rely on your skills : armor like 75% to 25%. Instead most games are all about the armor.... That's stupid to me.
OMG you would almost love Ragnarok Online 2. You can freely switch classes and use select skills from other classes; the power of your character comes from how you combine the skills since you can only use a limited amount of skills at a given point in time.
Only problem is there are levels, and not just one;each character has a base level, a level for each class, and a level for all upper body armor they posses, and all weapons they posses; with possible other levels in other game play aspects. You might totally hate that part since it isnt just levels. Its levels to the extreme.
I hate PvP. No worse feeling than having some young teen idiot with self esteem issues trying to prove something by sneaking up on someone much lower in level than he is and stealing everything he has. PvP griefers never pick fair fights. They prey on people that cant dedicate 10 hours a day to gaming. PvPers say they like the rush and challenge of combat with actual gamers. Well either challenge someone to a Duel or take it to an Arena. What does sneaking up on an unsuspecting lower level player and sucker punching him prove? That you're too afraid of a fair fight?
I also hate communities full of kids. Granted not all children are bad. Some are actually really great. But it's the other 99% that ruin the game by doing things such as begging , whining and ninja looting.
How addictive they can get at times.
Quoted for truth. Its even a bit frighteing how close my list is to yours. Though two points are debatable.
4. You can't blame the companies for wanting to make cash. Only the audience has the ultimate say. It's the same as with movies atm - the amount of crap that is spilled out on us is amazing, yet people (the massses) don't seem to object, so the (mainstream) movie makers don't give a damn about the quality of their movie. If you don't like it then don't play it, and reward more unique mmo's with your presence (admittedly atm not many), then we can hope for more interesting games in the future.
7. This will be always hard to implement without any arbitary restrictions. I see the problem, but the community has to be the ultimate solution.
------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Things I hate about MMORPGs (going from the topic title):
1) l33t-speaking juvenile deliquents who expect to kill, kill, kill and think that's all an mmoRPG is about;
2) the lack of RPG in most MMOrpgs out there (having statistics and "increasing them" isn't RPG, that's just having the window-dressing; having quests can be, if they aren't also window-dressing, a la "kill 5 bunnies" at level 1 which becomes the oh-so-intimidating "kill 5 hysterical bunnies with big tails" at level 5").
3) the ongoing elimination of actual exploration in games, to cater to the short-attention-span crowd, who whine if they have to walk fifty feet in a game.
4) moronic hand-feeding, or dumbing down of conventions, for no real quality sake and solely to get in the short-attention-span and l33t- types. AKA EQ2, where you are force-fed your skills as you level up, you don't get a choice in them, you don't get to configure your skills to be different than anyone else (variety in EQ2 is "hey, I've got Adept 1 'ice spell', and you've only got Apprentice 2, hah hah!" -- yeah, whatever).
Oops, forgot:
5) lack of continuous content feed -- Let's make one thing clear: "content" is not "fixing the crap you released broken". Content is new "stuff" -- quests, items, skills, etc, and preferably offering dynamic content, which would be new twists on the existing skill system, changing the geography where it makes sense, adding/improving weather or daring to try an actual seasonal system (hey, it's not like someone did that years ago, oh, wait, AC1 had it in 1999). And, as part of that:
6) Quests, and adding content that includes quests like these, that are nothing but the treadmill "go kill 5 fuzzy bunnies" that "evolve" with you so higher levels are "go kill 15 fuzzy, evil-smiling, BIG bunnies". Let's actually think up something akin to the quality of the solo quests in DAOC (even the intro, where you capture an evil winged beastie, which leads to an exploration of why they're there and stopping them) or many others instead of just doing ten-thousand retreads. That's not to say that kill quests aren't appropriate -- but having the bulk of your game be nothing but them just shows off how utterly lacking in creativity the devs are.
7) crafting -- yes, Virginia, there is a Crafting Santa. You can have great flexibility in the system, which a lot of individualisation to every item built, and not have to be moronically complicated (aka EQ2), and not be moronically simplistic and lacking in individualisation (aka WoW). Games that get it right: Horizons (build/destroy actual structures in the game world, including your own house; specialise each and every item by mix/matching materials and dyes and so forth; etc.); DAOC (to some extent; at least you can customize an item's look with dye, which is better than either of the two "leaders of the field", EQ2 and WoW, where everything is what it is and you best like that 'cause it ain't changing) and others like EQ1 have evolved into having individual customizing of items/equipment/etc. Even something as simple as AC1's "scavenging" system is an improvement. Games that fail utterly: WoW (er, take 2 chunks of rock, make them "refined chunks of rock", stand near forge, click "make"; that's it, never gets any more complicated except by adding bigger numbers), EQ2 (vast quantity of what you can build, with zip in the way of customization, all to produce mostly oils and liquids and paper to use in creating actual items that then are exactly like the eight trillion made by everyone else), and all those like them.
8) PvP without a Purpose. DAOC perfected the concept with Realm-versus-Realm. Others have added actual reputation systems to provide a realistic world-feel to it. Then there's WoW, where we reward you for bad behavior.