Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
EoC - The End..
deviliscious
Member UncommonPosts: 4,359
It's been a while, I really had thought Jagex had come to their senses, The armor looked great, expanded bank space, brought trade and wilderness back, so I gave it a go.. then they decided to do this. of all things, why this? I mean of course the game needs to be modernizd, it lacks free movement, fun, fast paced gameplay, it is terribly grindy and really needs an overhaul. What it really needs is to be rebuilt from the ground up, a new and improved Runescape 3. But that was not what they chose to do, no instead they ripped off abilities from other games porrly implemented them, added a hot bar but did not address the number one complaint about the game nor did they adrees the next 10 after that. Add a hot bar without wasd, thinking that would somehow appeal to the players coming from the WASD market. They never cease to amaze me, really.
This time, No POES ( pissed off ex scapers) no, just disappointment. It is sad to see it go this way. I do not even think you will have the rage you had with the trade and wilderness, nor the fury like was felt from star wars galaxy combat upgrade, just people giving up trying to help them and it eventualy fading into some sort of facebook and mobile phone game . People do not really seem to care as much this time around, they are just " logging out" and being done with it.
So many have left already after trying the Beta, not even arguing with Jagex anymore about it. So many more are leaving very soon. They had so much more potential if they had just made an RS3 from the ground up, left rs2 running a bit and linked vets accounts rewarding them for their dedication over the years. Guess that is too much to expect from a developer these days, oh wait Arenanet had no problem doing that and they don't even have a monthly sub. Guess Jagex just doesn;t think it's Runescape players are important enough to bother with, and they should just stay addicted to their leveling and take whatever garbage they decide to dish out. Sad Jagex, really sad.
Want to fix your game? Let rs2 be, make an RS3 with WASD movement, unique abilities, not half assed ripped ones from other games, fun fast gameplay so that if you have 30 min to play or a day you can still have fun. Make every item in game craftable, tradable, socketable, salvageable, and USEFUL. make skills interesting and fun, not mindless reptition. Make skills worthwhile by rewarding players for their efforts. People get 99 mining in your game so they never have to mine again and for a lame cape, not because they will be able to use it, or will ever use it after working so hard for that skill. The skills should work together to make interesting items that have in game value, and you make them for a profit, not mindlessly make the same thing over and over again for a level and lose money in the process. There is no reason anyone should have to make 100 of any item in game just for a level, no they should make items for fun and profit and no other reason, but that is not how your system is designed. It is a mess, the supplies are worth more than the end objects. Madness.
Solve the issues, don't break the game more. REWARD YOUR PLAYERS. I would say I will be there to see if you do, but I just do not have the heart anymore to care to wait.
Comments
I have fun playing the game. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.
And ArenaNet making Guild Wars 2 with Guild Wars running isn't the same as Jagex closing down RS2 after releasing RS3 (though they already did this with RSC to RS2). Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 are different games and they have intentions to keep both running and updated as they're not comparable besides the setting and lack of sub.
They are not making a RS3 from the ground up and running it at the same time because they blew the money for RS3 on Mechscape/ stellar dawn and cannot afford to be embarrassed to their investors again with empty rs3 servers at launch. Mark is deathly afraid that rs2 would have more players than rs3 if they ran them side by side, and it would show they wasted time and money again. He would rather run off players than admit that what they chose to do here was subpar and cannot compete on it's own merit. They are betting the bank on players being too addicted to leave, so they would at least have someone playing it at launch instead of it being empty. To me, that is a pretty sad cop out. If they want to compete they have to bring something to the table to compete with. I do not see them doing that here at all.
They cannot solve the problems with rs2 by bringing them into rs3 by overrunning the game with it, instead that will only lose players rather than gain them. RS3 is not enough to compete in todays market, and will not have the desired results because players these days have tried other games to compare it to. It is not like the past when there was not much to choose from. When you compare this to what is available elsewhere, Runescape falls short, whether it is crafting, fun fast paced gameplay, controls, pvp, or storyline, other games in todays market have shown better ways to do things. They are now removing the only niche they did have, and not replacing it with anything that stands out above the rest. I am not sure how that is supposed to be an improvement.
I just wanted to give an honest criticism, I didn't read past the first three worlds.
I would read it, but the red text on black background just makes it awful to try. Especially given it's length. If it was like 2 sentences, I probably wouldn't have cared about the choice in font color.
If you really want people to read your thread, you may want to consider editing it so that it's normal white font, or at least a color that is readable. Something with less saturation, like a dark orange.
I agree with your post - today, 11/20/12, the start of EOC, was my last day as a member in Runescape.
I have played since 2005, over 6 of those 7 years as a paying member. I went through a lot of changes with RS over the years, some good, some not so good, but EOC broke the camel's back for me.
Jagex had come out with a statement saying that EOC was coming - No ifs ands or buts. Yet today on forums, a forum mod states that we had a chance to vote and let them know what we think..... Well, that was bull, and I think they know that. Their little "survey" was in the beta part of EOC. Now, I could see if they had taken this poll to heart, but they had already come out with their stance that EOC was coming - so where did this vote fit in?
Also, when they made a big deal about bringing the Wilderness back, they actually put a vote out, but on the MAIN PAGE. Not that I don't think that they had already decided to do it, but that's besides the point.
The point is, if they were really at all serious about taking a vote, getting feedback from their players, then why not put this on the Main Page as well? And why make the statement they did right from the get go, thereby telling the player that whatever they felt about EOC didn't matter to them?
As someone stated after I made this point - "it's too late now"
I'm sure that many players have left, although forum mods are saying those were bots....lol whatever. They can only spin it so much.
You talk as if RuneScape is on it's last legs. It's STILL one of the top games subscription wise. Yes, subscription, not the free players taken into account. RuneScape stands out in the MMO field because it has by far the best quests in the market - very few are the standard kill x of y and all have an interesting story. The skill based leveling, no other game does this excluding the shoestring budget indie games that have too many glitches to be playable long term. Focus on non combat activities - the only games that offer the focus on crafting and such compared to RS are open world PVP sandboxes, something I'm not interested in. And the pure amound of content dwarfs most games. RuneScape doesn't need a new engine to stand up to todays games, but it's getting one anyways. A customizable UI that you can resize windows with. WASD movement. It's coming. That alone gets me excited.
Your red blurb above is speaking as if your opinions are facts. My post above is fact. There's a big difference as yours holds no merit, so to speak. If you don't like the game that's fine, but don't try to bash it with false pretenses. Your post might as well be coming from one of the doomsayers that flank the side of streets that people try to ignore.
The game in the past year got an 8/10 rating from this site. Pretty darn good for a game that can't stand up to others, don't you think? And Massively's Beau Hindman gave it game of the year for 2011. Another big feat. And those were recent.
I'm sorry, but I do believe your data is outdated. Could you please show me where the data shows that Runescape is one of the top games? From my understanding, it has been in decline since 2007, and is in no way in the same catagory with the top games. I am not sure what games you have been playing, but quest wise, the quests are not even up to par with what the rest of the industry has been offering over the past 5 years. This is not the market it was 10 years ago, this is a very large and competitive market now, and if you stop and look around you would see what else has been happening since Runescape came out.
The crafing system on Runescape is a terrible tragedy, and it could have been good, but they did not choose to go that route. It is like they just put things in game to say they have it, not to make it enjoyable gameplay. The entire idea that making the same useless item over and over again in mindless grind somehow equates to a quality crafting system is absurd. Most of the skills on the game are essentially the same motion over an over again with only the pictures on the screen being different and lacking in reward and thought. WC: click on tree, wait to fill with logs, bank. Fishing: click on fish, spot wait for fish, bank. Really the sheer amount of repetition of useless items that lose value the more you craft them is such a mindless grind it, you would have to be mad out of your mind to even bother with it. New players come in from games with fun, fast paced gameplay, and see the level addicted runescape zombies and run for their lives.
I would like to see your data here that you claim to be fact, because the website data that former runescape mod swimi posted on here a while back disagrees with that statement, and I have seen no actual data supporting this. Now Jagex does hold a record for the sheer number of accounts that have been created on Runescape over the past decade, but that is also because they do not delete accounts, do not IP ban, and have many repeat botting offenders creating accounts on a regular basis. That isn;t a compliment to the game itself, as many would have loved to dlete their accounts over the years if Jagex had allowed them to do so.
If you feel like backing up your statement, when you go to check those actual website data sheets, you could take a good look at how many programs are accessing their client vs nonprograms and get a better idea of what the real picture is here in regards to unique users from separate households are actually in the game as well.
Keep in mind, I also gave the game a better review with their armor updates, return of wilderness and trade, and soul wars too, but yes, I will be having to edit my reviews as they edit their game to properly address it in it's current state. When developers change the game, the old reviews do not really count for much, as they do not address the current imbalances, implementation and problems that arise from doing so. As for the games Ratings, Go to game list, sort by ratings, Runescape is towards the bottom of the list, not near the top. It is what the players think that matters moreso than anything else. Read what the reviews say about the game. In the end, it is what the people who play it/ have played it think that counts in the end. Most people have already tried Runescape, and have already left.
When you take a closer look at Runescapes numbers, you must also consider the number of programs accessing their site. Any game can have a ton of bots, the only number that counts is the number of unique users. Considering 9.2 million accounts were bot banned in 2011, and the sheer number of bots now still in the game, it is quite telling of the actual number of real players that are really in the game. when you view their unique user data. The bots were already being tested in EoC to be ready for the live game.
http://siteanalytics.compete.com/runescape.com/?metric=uv
Now when you take a look at their website hit data here, you can see very well since EoC was announced, the site hits have been quite grim.
Now consider these are just the website hits, not even actual players. Many visit sites that do not play the game at all, Many of those are also bots and other programs as well.
When comparing online games, even Minecraft leaves them in them in the dust, and there are not even bots in that game. HAHA! So much for Graphics, and Combat upgrades being needed to make a game more popular. Minecraft blows that idea out of the water.
http://siteanalytics.compete.com/minecraft.net/
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png
Now when you view those numbers, and what mmo data.net has to say about runescapes botting problem in regards to those numbers, It does become quite clear they are NOt the top mmorpg in regards to active subscriptions, or unique users.
"may look that Runescape lost a lot of subscribers, and they did, but there are 2 important factors you should take into consideration :
First of all with the migration from Runescape Classic to Runescape 2 there may have been some players lost, my listing does not differentiate between the two. Nowadays Runescape 2 is just called Runescape and Runescape Classis is pretty much closed down.
Secondly, and more important, the war against bots, macroers and other cheaters increased to unbelievable heights.
In 2009 Thousands got banned, but that was peanuts compared to the 9,2 million banned accounts in 2011. "
http://mmodata.blogspot.com/
Back in the good days of Runescape, I never saw populations drop below 200k people online, when I checked yesterday, there were 45k people online. Then you also have to consider the number of those playing who are bots, and the number of those playing that are currently rioting and protesting against the EoC, and their numbers look even more grim. Back in 2006, You did not see the amount of flower games as you do today, the sheer amount of scamming and also did not see the combat bots that you see these days. The sheer number of bots and scammers when I returned was shocking really. They swarm like flies. It is madness.
My data's simple. Go to the RuneScape's high score list for members. Over a million accounts listed - only members are listed in that section, and they have to be active (not reduced back to a free account). Though those are hard numbers, I can imagine your going to work in some estimations even though the proof is right in front of you. That alone puts it in the top tier of subscriptions, and that's not counting the free players. I never said it was the TOP SUB game as you implied. I said one of the top. Which it is, as it's on the highest subscription chart number you linked with a few other games.
As for preference of the game, your opinion is your opinion. I like most (not all, I'm no fanboy) changes Jagex is making. We can argue back and forth on that topic but it comes to taste, nothing more.
Some links that explain why RuneScape is a good game even considering today's standards (though the sub numbers speaks for themself - the game thrives in todays market, despite you saying it can't "stand up"):
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/10/09/the-soapbox-runescape-is-a-proper-mmo/
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/30/why-i-play-runescape/
Considering I actually know many on that highscore list, and also know many who do in fact bot themselves, it is no surprise they have that many accounts listed. One guy I know has 12 bot member accounts on that game and could care less what Jagex has to say about it. That is the norm these days on there not the exception. If you viewed the actual hard data on the subject, which is unique user website hits, progams accessing the client and the number of bot bans Jagex themselves admitted to, it is more than apparant that it does not in fact have more users than other games, rather it has more bots. Showing a highscore list that is full of bots is not showing how popular the game is, any game could do that if they so chose to, they just don;t usually choose to go that route, because they realize that everyone in the industry will see that for what it is. Did you bother to look at the links? It is obvious the game is taking a nose dive here. I show you the facts and you claim that to be opinion. Opinions do not change the fact that the game is plummiting.
Again, you see the game as plummeting - I see the EoC as making the game more fun, and the roadmap to adding WASD movement along with tons of other quality of life improvements (new interface, new world map, etc) only make me look forward to the future. We're going in circles here, really. Fact is the game is still in the top tier of subscription numbers and is actually enjoyed by some people. Some people dislike it, like you. We can leave it at that.
* tosses you some reading glasses* The numbers don't lie. Look at the graph. It distinctly shows an insane drop in unique users to the website after the EoC went into Beta. That is not a matter of opinion, that is a fact shown to be true by the programs monitoring their site. Then go read the posts from the people leaving on their very own forums. They are telling us they canceled membership months ago, many are cancelling present, which will again be shown on the graph when it updates for this month. That is not a matter of perspective, it is a fact that can be shown by the actual number of people accessing their website. You can have the opinion that you think that is great and all, but it is shown by actual numbers from the data on the website to be devestating to the game in terms of individual paying customers. If the players thought it was great, they would not be leaving over it. "Some people" is a massive understatement. From the data sheets it appears to be an exodus from the game.
Let's round this up.
Are subs over a million still? Yes, far over it.
Has the subs been decreasing based on the chart you linked? No - they actually had a small bump up the past month. It's the ONLY game on that chart that didn't have a downward spiral currently. There's no downward trend yet, we can only speculate so far.
Even if a good portion of members cancel, is the game still in the top tier sub number wise? Yes. Hundreds of thousands can quit and it'd still be in the top number of games sub wise.
Is the above an opinion? No.
Is your statement a good portion is quitting without the numbers showing it yet despite the ouctry on the forums an opinion? Yes. Wait until the "hard numbers" come out as you say before you throw around the word facts. Then we can talk about them.
And I'm done. Go ahead and try to spin it - I'm not going to waste more time on this thread, it's been done to death despite the links you gave even helping my viewpoint. Not gonna post another response.
There's another option: The bots don't work with the new combat yet or people haven't adopted the new ones that do/will.
EDIT: of course meaning that unique hits will go down, without realy affecting popularity.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Actually, even for a person with good vision, red on grey is second only to red on blue in the list of color combinations that are difficult to read on a computer monitor, despite red on grey working fine in print. The more the text gets quoted, the harder it will be to read as the background will become lighter and lighter.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Agreed. The OP doesn't understand the data he is looking at. RuneScape's unique views (uv) rose when the announcement was made, spiked when the beta applications and beta server went up and then dropped as there was less waiting for news and more regular flow of news coming out. This is normal site traffic for any MMO. You can see the same spikes before and at the moment of events. For MMOs, those moments are primarily Nov-Dec and June-July, so the overlapping high visit rate contributed to the rise and fall. vindictus.nexon.net, freerealms.com ... plug in any similar style web-login MMO and you will see the same pattern.
Using Minecraft as a comparison further shows he does understand the data he is using, as Minecraft doesn't create expansions or run seasonal events. It also doesn't require a web log in.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
She* and yes, I do understand the data I am looking at here. There is a reason I used minecraft, as that is the game I have heard most as the answer to where many of the Runescape players are going to. It is related simply because that was a top answer to the " what game are you going to be playing now?" question asked to Runescape players who were leaving. I have spoken to many of the players on Runescape, and almost everyone I have spoken to is leaving Runescape, or already has. Yes, the spike in Minecraft users and the drop in Runesacpe users are related, as many have left Runescape to play that game instead.
If you have been reading the Combat discussion forums on Runescpes site, you would see why it dropped as the players have been posting why they are leaving and why they have cancelled their memberships. Many cancelled after trying to beta, others thought they were going to put it off longer and didn;t and you will see another significant drop in unque users as a result of that. when the data is released, both one after the nov 20th announcement and one after Eoc went live on the 20th.
The bots do work with new combat already, They were already in mass in the EoC Beta, and went live the day of release. According to one guy I spoke with who runs 12 Bots on the game, day of EoC release he had all of an 20 min down time for his bots before they were going again in the live game.
Bots are still a very serious issue for this game, and will be until the game design itself is changed or they completely block all program accesss to the client.
Glad to see I'm not the only one that doesn't see the game in a light that paints everything for the worse.
Now silly, I don't paint everything in the game for the worse, I have seen the potential in this game for many years now, and Honestly believe, by this point that if this game was in the hands of the right developers it would have been great by now. The problem being Jagex often thinks of the very thing that needs to be improved, and then does the opposite of what needs to happen. If they had chosen to go a different direction you could be playing a great game by now.
Just imagine for a second a Runescape where all items in game are craftable, tradable, socketable, salvagabe, and able to be decorated and colored via the skill system. Game balance put into socketing, gathering skills actually had an end reward, like take the idea they had with Miscelania and instead add mines, lumberyard, fishing boats ect, as you increase in mining you gain more miners, fishing, fishing boats, wc, lumberjacks so that by the time you max those skills you don;t have to continue to do them in order to gain a benefit from the levels you earned. Imagine a game where your crafting/ smithing/ fletching items were actually worth more than the materials you made them from. That you could place your own designs on armor, add more sockets for added stat bonuses, and salvage the items for the materials you made them from if you cannot sell the item. Now that would be a crafting system they could boast about. They chose not to go that direction, instead they keep adding more items that devalue the crafting system and causing more useless items and grind to be in the game.
They are not solving the problems here, they are creating more by not making a new game. Think about the appeal to new members coming in wanting to have santa suit at christmas because they see everyone else running around in one and being told " you can never do that" then seeing a pumpkin head, chicken, scythe, bunny ears .. the same thing. The problem with games that have run as long as this is that it is full of a decades worth of loot newbies can never have, so there comes a point when the kid asks" where do I get one?" and being told they never will that they think why bother playing this when I can never attain what I want, or it will take me 10 years to get enough in game cash to even be able to buy the armors and weapons they wish to use as well? Why would anyone new want to come into that environment?
If those problems are not solved in addition to the actual game mechanics that need to be addressed, you can't expect new players to want to stay. When starting a new game, they really should consider the new guys coming in as well, if they want to keep them coming. For example an idea to resolve that issue for a long term solution, would be to instead of give unattainable items, you give a craftable item or a way to decorate existing items instead. Then each year you bring back old events, as well as add new events. That way, new players have to do more events in order to obtain he same ability to make items, but still are able to do so. I don;t have a problem letting some new kid have bunny ears too. The more bunny ears available for everyone the better.
There really is so much that could be improved on this game to make it a great game, but I do not see Jagex expanding their niche here, I see them obliterating it by making it medicore by trying to half ass attempt to immitate other games, rather than giving it unique qualities that make it stand out in the crowd. If they focused on what sets it apart, and took that to another level, they would gain ground rather than lose it. The ability to train everything on one character, and be able to switch styles quickly in combat was the only good thing about their combat system. They decided to break that rather than add to it, making it a very limited class based games, as there are not even that many classes in Runescape to begin with.
It has been hard over the years though watching them destroy their crafting system, player rewards, game mechanics, community, and now the combat system when the game really has so much potential. After so long, you get to the point where you lose faith in them to pull it out. I give them credit when credit is deserved, but I also let them know when they are making a mess of things as well.
Reading that only makes me more sure of my opinion. We can agree to disagree I guess.
What exactly do you disagree with? You think having skills that are useless in game and a mindless repetition of grind is a good thing for the game? Or that having access to all game content on one character and being able to switch styles quickly was not what set them apart from the rest in regards to pvp combat:? When you look at the class based games on the market, you have many classes to choose from whether it be necromancers or Mesmers, they have a wide variety of classes to choose from. For Runescape to move towards class based mechanics by penalizing switching styles and hardening the combat triangle, you are removing the only niche they did have in regards to their combat system. What now do they have to offer that they do better in regards to combat than other games? Nothing as far as I can tell considering the limited combat styles to choose from and the powered up combat traingle pretty much nerfed the only thing they did have to offer that other games did not.
In regards to new players, I have given out Runescape memberships for years for christmas presents to family and friends. My sister would not play it after she found out she could not get bunny ears. People do not like coming in late to games for the reason that they have already missed out on the fun. If they are paying the same amount coming in ( actually more for new players in Runescape's case) They want access to the same content everyone else has. If they cannot ever have access to that content, why would they want to pay more than others and receive less?
Please clarify what exactly you disagree with, as I am not seeing how devaluing the crafting system, taking out the best part of pvp combat, and withholding content from new players while charging them more could possibly be benficial for the the health of the game long term.
I agree with you. I tried reading it, but lost interest due to trying to stay focused. Not bashing, just wanted the OP to know.
Draron:
Since you seem to think that I am just attempting to paint hem in a bad light, as you can see from my post here in developers corner from 2007, their combat system did have much to offer prior to the EoC that other games did not. If they had just taken that a step further rather than 12 steps backwards, I would be complimenting them right now instead of telling them how bad they messed up.
PVP discussion developers corner 2007:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/159765/page/1
And since you seem to think all I do is bash Jagex, here are a just a couple of my posts giving them their credit when Credit is due:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/292553/Runefest-2010.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/344284/Verdict-on-new-armour-designs.html
You can stop putting words in my mouth and dragging this on, already gave my points about subscription numbers and such.
The EoC isn't a factually bad update. It comes to taste, just as I said over and over yet you have to rebuttle as if it's a proven fact the update is wrong. Like I said before, it's preference only. No need to go back and forth.
Leaving it at that.
Factually? Facts are the number of people cancelling their memberships, the number of website hits, the number of bots in the game.. Not say " lets go look at the high score list".
It can be considered a matter of taste as to whether or not you like the update as a whole, but whether or not it is good for the health of the game long term is not really an opinion, it can be backed up with actual data. When you have a great number of people cancelling their memberships, leaving the game, and not having new players come and stay, all you have to do is take a look at what those players are telling you, and the data sheets to determine whether or not it was a hit or miss.
When you tell me that you disagree, but do not specify what you disagree with, of course I am going to ask you to clarify it.
You can choose not to clarify it, and leave it at that, but of course I would ask you to simply because I want to better understand your perspective on the issue.