Originally posted by ShakyMo Yeah but your wrong. Way more complexity in Sf with what counters what, getting combos off, what breaks defences,what counters breakers, when to use charge, setting up attacks on the reverse side etc..
Sure easy modes solo you can just block,bash what looks like the appropriate button and spam the odd special move. But tournament play and even harder difficulty solo play is way more complex than typical mmo combat.
I'm sorry I dont agree with you.
You mention in SF you learn what counters what. You have to do that in MMO's also. However in MMO's you have to learn with alot more skills at your disposal.
You also mention skill rotation. How long does it take, lets take WoW as an example, to learn the skill rotations, what enemy to use which skill rotation on and what skills counter what skills. It takes a much longer time to work out than SF.
To me what your saying is boxing is more complex than chess.
You have 30 different abilities, of which maybe 2-3 are applicable in any given moment and even then, only one of them is the one you should use.
2-3?
Ever played WoW PVP?
I play rogue...I get engaged as a warrior, I can go with:
Blind to CC, Dismantle to disable his skills and fight, Vanish + sprint to run away, Evasion to avoid dmg, CoS to reduce dmg, Shadow dance + cheap shot to CC and fight, Vanish + SAP, Vanish + cheap shot, Shadowstep + backstab, vanish + shadowstep + ambush / cheap shot, gouge,... these are just moves I can think of immediately, there are many more moves you can make. Many skills do provide you with variety of actions you can take...
Imagine you have 6 skills...what would you do
Yeah I've played WoW PvP, as a rogue nevertheless. I have a Logitech G13 and Razer Naga and I was still running out of buttons trying to map everything.
But most of the abilities are copies of each other, just on different cooldowns or having a tiny bit different effect. Of course making those abilities like this makes it "harder" because the player needs to memorize and map more keys. But it still is not complexity unless by complexity you mean making it complex to have enough keys or having to macro a lot of abilities. There is no more depth in WoW combat than for example GW2. It's all an illusion.
No MMO today has 6 skills. GW2 has at least 11 on any character + 5 more with weapon swap. Many characters have even more.
My point is: You can make a very complex combat with just 10 slots on the hotbar. Giving the player 30 skills he can equip on the screen all at once is just a lazy way of adding complexity and I'm glad games are moving away from that model.
Originally posted by ignore_me Watched the latest bit on Neverwinter. Is it just me, or do we lose hotbar buttons with each new MMO? Pretty soon there will just be one button to press called "Attack"
I personally love limited hotbar design. Its elegant and anything more then 8 abilities is getting in to the realm of to many abilities. The great thing about limited hotbars + action combat is that your normally more attuned to situational awareness instead of doing a rotation. The thing that TSW got wrong with their limited botbar setup is they implemented it into a stand still and fight MMO. In games like NW, GW2, and TESO the action is all about movement and keeping your eye on the action rather on that perfect rotation i.e. WoW style.
I can't decide if I like the limited hotbar design or not.
TSW is more actiony imo than GW2. Standing still will be a problem as you progress into the game. I prefer GW2 combat as you don't have to spam 1 but I couldn't click at all in TSW were I can half ass it in GW2 click every now and then.
Hopefully this game be everything we are hoping for as far as user generated content.
Originally posted by ignore_me Watched the latest bit on Neverwinter. Is it just me, or do we lose hotbar buttons with each new MMO? Pretty soon there will just be one button to press called "Attack"
I personally love limited hotbar design. Its elegant and anything more then 8 abilities is getting in to the realm of to many abilities. The great thing about limited hotbars + action combat is that your normally more attuned to situational awareness instead of doing a rotation. The thing that TSW got wrong with their limited botbar setup is they implemented it into a stand still and fight MMO. In games like NW, GW2, and TESO the action is all about movement and keeping your eye on the action rather on that perfect rotation i.e. WoW style.
I think this is where you're going with that ---> This will be the next evolution of the hot-bar. Forget having choices of abilities, items and consumables to equip, macros, etc. This will not task your short term memory, nor will it make you decide how you will set up your character's abilities. Die complexity! Die!
Being facetious does not become you.
Of course that isn't what I mean but it appears you like things like below. Having that many abilities is silly, archaic and downright ugly. It takes up so much of the view and it makes you play the hotbar instead of the game.
Good players don't look at the hotbars...
You see where igmore_me said, "This will not task your short term memory,"? This is what he was aluding too. Bad players stare at their bar and stand in fire. Good players never have to look at their hotbars. They keep their eys oon the encounter.
PvP at launch? Damnit how much will premium cost me?
Of course that isn't what I mean but it appears you like things like below. Having that many abilities is silly, archaic and downright ugly. It takes up so much of the view and it makes you play the hotbar instead of the game.
That's a highly exaggerated example. Just a quick glance tells me there are many duplicated abilities on those bars, as well as things like professions, teleports, etc. You don't need every spell you can cast accessible at every moment.
Here is what I raid endgame as Ret with. Prot has 2 more buttons on the top bar. Things I don't use often are neatly hidden away; no sidebars.
And the people saying you can play with castsequence macros are simply bad. Pretty much every class has priority queues now, simple rotations don't cut it. I use macros for mouseover functionality on most of my abilities, or to activate self-buffs. No castsequence required.
Using an ugly-as-hell custom user UI doesn't really make your case aganst games with more than 6-8 abilities.
Wow way to keep this thread entirely off topic about hotbars rather than the Foundry.
Looks pretty awesome to me.
Custom maps, custom decoration, custom (looking anyway) mobs in encounters...
Looking great.
I hope they add in some ability to control environmental lighting, and there is enough customization in the encounters to say stack them for mob density, create waves/gauntlets, boss encounters, etc.
But I for one am looking very forward to creating episodic content.
That is, of course, assuming the combat and progression is to my liking.
I do think that the idea of having such a large portion of the game be about player made content is a great idea. I just wish they could also have an in-depth character building process that flows out to the UI as well (character building that is varied and complex and having that extend to abilities that the player can tailor). I'm actually a fan of more action-based combat, I just don't like the restriction of controls down to a few buttons.
Wow way to keep this thread entirely off topic about hotbars rather than the Foundry.
Looks pretty awesome to me.
Custom maps, custom decoration, custom (looking anyway) mobs in encounters...
Looking great.
I hope they add in some ability to control environmental lighting, and there is enough customization in the encounters to say stack them for mob density, create waves/gauntlets, boss encounters, etc.
But I for one am looking very forward to creating episodic content.
That is, of course, assuming the combat and progression is to my liking.
(And the business/payment model isn't offensive.)
Thanks Spock, this was the intent of my post. As a fan of a certain other game and coming up on full 100% PvE map completion, I have been weary of replayability and as such I was thinking of ways to freshen up what I consider the defining issue in themepark MMO's. I had remembered I favorited this Foundry video when it was released but never gotten around to watching it. After seeing it I was completely blown away with the limited possibilities in player created content and it never occured to me that this style of content could be used to keep PvE fresh. As a player who enjoys PvE the most, and the best aspects of PvE to me is small group events what better way to keep a game fresh then to allow users to make dungeons and events. To me this Foundry system opens up unlimited possibilities and should in theory do awaqy with my biggest issue with the modern MMO, no endgame.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I do think that the idea of having such a large portion of the game be about player made content is a great idea...
I just wish they could also have an in-depth character building process that flows out to the UI as well (character building that is varied and complex and having that extend to abilities that the player can tailor).
Well, taking my cues from what Cryptic has done with STO, Foundry missions are not a large portion of the game at all, but rather a fun and interesting aside from a standard quest progression aswell as a huge draw for many would be writers, designers, and artists. D&D's modules system of short, independant adventures feeds into this sort of model. We're not talking about a player controlled environment here, if it emulates the STO foundry it will be instance-based and will not (cannot) offer unique rewards. Of course endgame user content could open up new doors, but frankly the STO Foundry offers alternatives to the standard game progression by giving you the option to delve into player content; it doesnt drive the narrative.
As for in depth character creation; its D&D. Hopefully they just don't go the weird DDO route and oversimplify Prestige classes while still leaving new players completely lost. DDO wasted a lot of people's time building characters they had fun grinding but then became completely worthless at endgame. All I can say is, find a build before you get too into it.
What is usually the #1 complaint of the modern Themepark MMO today? If "not enough content at end-game" is your answer then Neverwinter just might be the game for you. After watching all of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pn7iU4EwTcPAX 2012 - Neverwinter Foundry demonstration and Q&A, I left in awe with the possiblities of content coming in at an unprecedent rate. Imagine never worrying about when that next content patch is, as most likely some interped DM's will be churning out hopefully amazing content every single day.
Now if your idea of content consists of PvP, lolRaiding, or mega-community style events then Neverwinter might not appeal to you.
Now I am not completely sold on the game yet, as I am iffy on their payment model (F2P) and do not know if there is a class I want to play yet (please let Sword Mage be in) plus I am skeptical of the 50/50 persistance/instance areas. But with the ability to play a plethora of dungeons at will has to be right up there on my list of enjoyment.
You might be right, but both EQ2 and CoH did add similar stuff a while back and it didnt work out that way there.
Biowares old NWN did it right and was very popular for years with plenty of custom content but it wasnt exactly a MMO, the creators run their own servers there so this isnt exactly the same.
The idea is great if it works and is done the right way, but it might also instead add loads of poorly made crap content with far too great rewards so I will wait praising it until I tried it.
Originally posted by AG-Vuk If you want to get as good feel for what a Cryptic product playes and feels like, put away the hype and videos and go play F2P offerings CO and STO. Same engine, and they are pos. Don't take my word for it, go test them yourselfs. The mechanic for the foundry is already there in STO. So stop watching these professionally done hype vids.
While STO has had some very bad press, it is not the POS every claims it is. I personally had fun in the game for far longer them most MMO's tend to keep me having fun. Yes it has it's flaws, but so does every other game.
But despite it's flaws and issues, the foundry in that game was essentially a beta test platform for their development of Neverwinter. It is far less developed and has less features...
...but players were still able to produce top notch content for it, with great stories and some interesting gameplay. In my opinion, the Foundry in STO is one of the most revolutionary MMO systems designed in the last decade, and simply due to it being part of an underwhelming game for most, it did not recieve the attention it deserved.
People have been begging for user-created content for years, and the Foundry delivered in STO, and will deliver even more in Neverwinter. Other developers need to take heed, because if neverwinter fails, it will be because of the rest of its game mechanics, as STO proved the foundry works, providing you have a community willing to design for it (and not be lazy asses and bitch about everyone elses content).
And to all the players bitching about limited hotkey's Dungeons and Dragons was never about a massive amount of abilities to begin with. True, alot was imagination, but your character in the P&P version usually focused on a smaller set of abilites. All D&D games have followed this pattern. Even casters, with there impressive array of available spells, could only memorize so many at a time.
In CoH the problem was two-fold. The creator was too limiting. In a way, the limitations were in the game itself, as many missions were a matter of 1. pick a map 2. pick a section 3. throw enemies in place 4. add dialogue and or quest objectives
There needs to be a bit more too it.
The second problem was a combination of a glut of low quality missions. Players generally just suck at that sort of thing, and the system made it difficult to find real quality creations. The rating system sucked because most missions with high ratings had them for dumb reasons, limited not just to farming quality.
Remove these problems, add the ability to promote your mission to others using in game or outside currency, and developer-review well-rated missions to either be sunk or exalted by them, and I think it will work well.
There's no skill to wow, its just having the right castsequence macros, grinding the right gear and not standing in fire.
Lots of icons on your toolbar just give the illusion of complexity.
Of course some people don't like this more action style combat from the likes of gw2 & tsw because you have to pay attention. You can't play them while watching tv, where as with wow and other games you could "grind shit" while watching tv. (you sort of can with gw2 though with the right class / build, but that's more down to the game being too easy than there being less icons on the toolbar)
Look at this way, you only have "6 items on your toolbar' with street fighter, but its way more complex combat than mmos.
The best control systems are simple to pick up but have lots of emergent complexity as you get practiced with them and develop your skills. Sticking it right in your have with 40+ skills doesn't make it more complex, especially when you have macros.
Uh no street fighter is the last thing i will compare this too. Fighting games have hundreds of moves because directions and previous skill sequences modify attacks. Ex. High punch punches someone in the face. Down forward high punch throws a fire ball.
You cannot tell me moving then hitting your one key on your keyboard does something different...
What is usually the #1 complaint of the modern Themepark MMO today? If "not enough content at end-game" is your answer then Neverwinter just might be the game for you. After watching all of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pn7iU4EwTcPAX 2012 - Neverwinter Foundry demonstration and Q&A, I left in awe with the possiblities of content coming in at an unprecedent rate. Imagine never worrying about when that next content patch is, as most likely some interped DM's will be churning out hopefully amazing content every single day.
Now if your idea of content consists of PvP, lolRaiding, or mega-community style events then Neverwinter might not appeal to you.
Now I am not completely sold on the game yet, as I am iffy on their payment model (F2P) and do not know if there is a class I want to play yet (please let Sword Mage be in) plus I am skeptical of the 50/50 persistance/instance areas. But with the ability to play a plethora of dungeons at will has to be right up there on my list of enjoyment.
You might be right, but both EQ2 and CoH did add similar stuff a while back and it didnt work out that way there.
Biowares old NWN did it right and was very popular for years with plenty of custom content but it wasnt exactly a MMO, the creators run their own servers there so this isnt exactly the same.
The idea is great if it works and is done the right way, but it might also instead add loads of poorly made crap content with far too great rewards so I will wait praising it until I tried it.
In Neverwinter, the rewards is set by Cryptic and not the author of the content. A Foundry mission that takes 30 mins to complete will reward identical coinage, loot and XP as a developer created mission. As for poorly made crap content, yes there will be alot of it and most of it won't get played but they are implementing features for the cream of the crop to raise to the top for easier accessibility. Theres also a hurdle in the foundry that for your work to get published it first must get pre-approved by 5 User-Generated playtesters before it gets published to the masses. First I suspect theres going to be some content that is good to n ot actually get published but the stuff that does get published should be playable by the developers standards.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Comments
I'm sorry I dont agree with you.
You mention in SF you learn what counters what. You have to do that in MMO's also. However in MMO's you have to learn with alot more skills at your disposal.
You also mention skill rotation. How long does it take, lets take WoW as an example, to learn the skill rotations, what enemy to use which skill rotation on and what skills counter what skills. It takes a much longer time to work out than SF.
To me what your saying is boxing is more complex than chess.
Yeah I've played WoW PvP, as a rogue nevertheless. I have a Logitech G13 and Razer Naga and I was still running out of buttons trying to map everything.
But most of the abilities are copies of each other, just on different cooldowns or having a tiny bit different effect. Of course making those abilities like this makes it "harder" because the player needs to memorize and map more keys. But it still is not complexity unless by complexity you mean making it complex to have enough keys or having to macro a lot of abilities. There is no more depth in WoW combat than for example GW2. It's all an illusion.
No MMO today has 6 skills. GW2 has at least 11 on any character + 5 more with weapon swap. Many characters have even more.
My point is: You can make a very complex combat with just 10 slots on the hotbar. Giving the player 30 skills he can equip on the screen all at once is just a lazy way of adding complexity and I'm glad games are moving away from that model.
I can't decide if I like the limited hotbar design or not.
TSW is more actiony imo than GW2. Standing still will be a problem as you progress into the game. I prefer GW2 combat as you don't have to spam 1 but I couldn't click at all in TSW were I can half ass it in GW2 click every now and then.
Hopefully this game be everything we are hoping for as far as user generated content.
Good players don't look at the hotbars...
You see where igmore_me said, "This will not task your short term memory,"? This is what he was aluding too. Bad players stare at their bar and stand in fire. Good players never have to look at their hotbars. They keep their eys oon the encounter.
PvP at launch? Damnit how much will premium cost me?
the maps creator
we will see lots of same stuff becouse its copy and paste
That's a highly exaggerated example. Just a quick glance tells me there are many duplicated abilities on those bars, as well as things like professions, teleports, etc. You don't need every spell you can cast accessible at every moment.
Here is what I raid endgame as Ret with. Prot has 2 more buttons on the top bar. Things I don't use often are neatly hidden away; no sidebars.
And the people saying you can play with castsequence macros are simply bad. Pretty much every class has priority queues now, simple rotations don't cut it. I use macros for mouseover functionality on most of my abilities, or to activate self-buffs. No castsequence required.
Using an ugly-as-hell custom user UI doesn't really make your case aganst games with more than 6-8 abilities.
Wow way to keep this thread entirely off topic about hotbars rather than the Foundry.
Looks pretty awesome to me.
Custom maps, custom decoration, custom (looking anyway) mobs in encounters...
Looking great.
I hope they add in some ability to control environmental lighting, and there is enough customization in the encounters to say stack them for mob density, create waves/gauntlets, boss encounters, etc.
But I for one am looking very forward to creating episodic content.
That is, of course, assuming the combat and progression is to my liking.
(And the business/payment model isn't offensive.)
Mea culpa on the derail. Apologies.
I do think that the idea of having such a large portion of the game be about player made content is a great idea. I just wish they could also have an in-depth character building process that flows out to the UI as well (character building that is varied and complex and having that extend to abilities that the player can tailor). I'm actually a fan of more action-based combat, I just don't like the restriction of controls down to a few buttons.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Thanks Spock, this was the intent of my post. As a fan of a certain other game and coming up on full 100% PvE map completion, I have been weary of replayability and as such I was thinking of ways to freshen up what I consider the defining issue in themepark MMO's. I had remembered I favorited this Foundry video when it was released but never gotten around to watching it. After seeing it I was completely blown away with the limited possibilities in player created content and it never occured to me that this style of content could be used to keep PvE fresh. As a player who enjoys PvE the most, and the best aspects of PvE to me is small group events what better way to keep a game fresh then to allow users to make dungeons and events. To me this Foundry system opens up unlimited possibilities and should in theory do awaqy with my biggest issue with the modern MMO, no endgame.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
[User Deleted]
Well, that's always fun.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Well, taking my cues from what Cryptic has done with STO, Foundry missions are not a large portion of the game at all, but rather a fun and interesting aside from a standard quest progression aswell as a huge draw for many would be writers, designers, and artists. D&D's modules system of short, independant adventures feeds into this sort of model. We're not talking about a player controlled environment here, if it emulates the STO foundry it will be instance-based and will not (cannot) offer unique rewards. Of course endgame user content could open up new doors, but frankly the STO Foundry offers alternatives to the standard game progression by giving you the option to delve into player content; it doesnt drive the narrative.
As for in depth character creation; its D&D. Hopefully they just don't go the weird DDO route and oversimplify Prestige classes while still leaving new players completely lost. DDO wasted a lot of people's time building characters they had fun grinding but then became completely worthless at endgame. All I can say is, find a build before you get too into it.
You might be right, but both EQ2 and CoH did add similar stuff a while back and it didnt work out that way there.
Biowares old NWN did it right and was very popular for years with plenty of custom content but it wasnt exactly a MMO, the creators run their own servers there so this isnt exactly the same.
The idea is great if it works and is done the right way, but it might also instead add loads of poorly made crap content with far too great rewards so I will wait praising it until I tried it.
While STO has had some very bad press, it is not the POS every claims it is. I personally had fun in the game for far longer them most MMO's tend to keep me having fun. Yes it has it's flaws, but so does every other game.
But despite it's flaws and issues, the foundry in that game was essentially a beta test platform for their development of Neverwinter. It is far less developed and has less features...
...but players were still able to produce top notch content for it, with great stories and some interesting gameplay. In my opinion, the Foundry in STO is one of the most revolutionary MMO systems designed in the last decade, and simply due to it being part of an underwhelming game for most, it did not recieve the attention it deserved.
People have been begging for user-created content for years, and the Foundry delivered in STO, and will deliver even more in Neverwinter. Other developers need to take heed, because if neverwinter fails, it will be because of the rest of its game mechanics, as STO proved the foundry works, providing you have a community willing to design for it (and not be lazy asses and bitch about everyone elses content).
And to all the players bitching about limited hotkey's Dungeons and Dragons was never about a massive amount of abilities to begin with. True, alot was imagination, but your character in the P&P version usually focused on a smaller set of abilites. All D&D games have followed this pattern. Even casters, with there impressive array of available spells, could only memorize so many at a time.
In CoH the problem was two-fold. The creator was too limiting. In a way, the limitations were in the game itself, as many missions were a matter of 1. pick a map 2. pick a section 3. throw enemies in place 4. add dialogue and or quest objectives
There needs to be a bit more too it.
The second problem was a combination of a glut of low quality missions. Players generally just suck at that sort of thing, and the system made it difficult to find real quality creations. The rating system sucked because most missions with high ratings had them for dumb reasons, limited not just to farming quality.
Remove these problems, add the ability to promote your mission to others using in game or outside currency, and developer-review well-rated missions to either be sunk or exalted by them, and I think it will work well.
Themepark?
so i dont have to try then. good to know.
nor do you need to even post really lol.
Themepark?
Neverwinter's most defining feature is a sandbox one. That sandbox feature is the prime reason you say it will be the ultimate 'themepark'...?
... very strange how people think these days.
Uh no street fighter is the last thing i will compare this too. Fighting games have hundreds of moves because directions and previous skill sequences modify attacks. Ex. High punch punches someone in the face. Down forward high punch throws a fire ball.You cannot tell me moving then hitting your one key on your keyboard does something different...
In Neverwinter, the rewards is set by Cryptic and not the author of the content. A Foundry mission that takes 30 mins to complete will reward identical coinage, loot and XP as a developer created mission. As for poorly made crap content, yes there will be alot of it and most of it won't get played but they are implementing features for the cream of the crop to raise to the top for easier accessibility. Theres also a hurdle in the foundry that for your work to get published it first must get pre-approved by 5 User-Generated playtesters before it gets published to the masses. First I suspect theres going to be some content that is good to n ot actually get published but the stuff that does get published should be playable by the developers standards.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!