Dumbed down? World of Warcraft's meat is not the leveling, it's the endgame. Complaining that WoW is easy after just leveling is like saying that Big Mac combo you just bought has no calories just because you've only tasted the diet coke that came with it.
Try doing heroic raids, that's where you'll find challenge: a bigger challenge than any other themepark MMO out there. If you don't like raiding, then WoW is not for you, basically.
HA! PWNED!!!! +1 to this lol.
You see, that is where your camp and mine differ. For us, it isn't the end of the road that matters. It's the journey. But you are right about one thing. As it stands now WoW isn't for me. That is the whole point of my OP.
The only challenge comes at level 90 when you do a Herioc raid or whatever the nifty neat level 90 hard thing is. Can you list out the challenge prior to that??
Ask that of every mature game out there. The latest expansion trivializes the previous content.
I have been playing since day 1 and yes there have been changes during the 8 years. It was definitely made more casual than it used to be in Vanilla or even BC, but coming with this post after they released their last expansion seems kind of weird to me.
Why? Because the game is practically the same since WOTLK. There have been some minor changes, but nothing so important.
Most significant change in last couple years in my eyes was the introduction of "Looking for..." tools. They made ppl stay in the city and just queue. The whole world became practically useless.
Now in MoP it was addressed by having world bosses, daily quests, xrealm zones, so that if you go out to the world, there are ppl and OWPvP again which is a good thing, in my opinion. I hate dailies though, but it's my personal preference.
You complain about talent trees. Fair enough, I do agree that they were simplified which on the first sight may seem to be the worst thing you could imagine. However, do you remember what it used to be before they were changed to this? For me, when new expansion / major patch arrived, I just checked on the internet for the build...hmmm ok so now it is 30 / 5 / 17 (made up combination), distributed the talent points accordingly and jumped to the action.
My point is, WoW is a themepark, kind of an instant fun game which never had SO much depth. Maybe in Vanilla, there was something to it, but since BC, all you log in for is to do BGs, RBGs, Raids, Dungs and other rides.
I think most players are annoyed when they have to touch their talents at all. Most of the WoW's players just want instant action which is what WoW is about. Of course you could / still can adjust your build, so that it corresponds better with the way you are used to play (or at least in PvP since in PVE there always been cookie cutter builds which you either had or slacked on dps and was flamed by other ppl in the grp for having a wrong build), but I am convinced WoW is so casual instant action that vast majority of its players would not even care if they completely removed the builds. It is made for people who just want to jump in and play.
To me it seems that you are suggesting that WoW lost its incredible depth it used to have...but did it really? I just find the game to be still the same. Maybe you remember wrong what WoW used to be since people incline to remember old things better than they actually are or maybe it is me remembering old WoW wrong, but I just do not see this significant transition to something completely different and siginificantly worse than what old WoW used to be. Especially not between CATA and MOP.
I also want depth in an MMO, but I am not looking for it in a pure themepark game...
Wow... I pretty much agree with errthing you said... Let me take a moment to drink this in.. .it's refreshing. You Sir. I like you.
Dumbed down? World of Warcraft's meat is not the leveling, it's the endgame. Complaining that WoW is easy after just leveling is like saying that Big Mac combo you just bought has no calories just because you've only tasted the diet coke that came with it.
Try doing heroic raids, that's where you'll find challenge: a bigger challenge than any other themepark MMO out there. If you don't like raiding, then WoW is not for you, basically.
HA! PWNED!!!! +1 to this lol.
You see, that is where your camp and mine differ. For us, it isn't the end of the road that matters. It's the journey. But you are right about one thing. As it stands now WoW isn't for me. That is the whole point of my OP.
His point was WoW has almost always been about the end. It is a raiding game pretty much always has been. Lol I enjoy a long journey as much if not more than you do. I'm an EvE vet sir. My journey was longer than what WoW's journey ever was. I did not like what they did to WoW either beleive me. However MoP is a decent expansion. We are going to have to get over that fact. Vanilla and TBC( my favorite) is gone and not coming back.
Well I tried out the sample edition of World of Warcraft lately. I am so glad I did that instead of re-subbing my old account. I don't even recognize the game any more.
No talent trees? No alternate weapons slots? WTF? No reason to see trainers except to respec?
This game just keeps getting more and more watered down with every expansion.
What a shame.
Goodby World of Warcraft, hello World of Weaksauce.
Originally posted by Chrisbox No alternate weapon slots is fine, they made it so that you know what you have to use and dont need anything extra. For example hunters only use Bows no melee now...Thats not a bad thing at all Im fine without having to worry about my stat stick.
You are so right. Except for the fact that now you have 1 to 2 less things to worry about. And for classes that use those 1-2 less things THEY dont have to re work their positioning or their abilities associated with them. Wands - bows - guns- throwing stuff. Dont worry- you just use the ability and bam it works. The 8 year old hunter can still shoot you now with his lil bow and not get rolled cause he has no idea how to melee / evade. But then again - the way it was was an " extra " thing you had to adapt to. An extra thing you had to use your brain for.
Yep, couldn't agree more. My 6 year old daughter loves playing the game. And she's actually quite good at it. No wonder, since you have no need to understand anything but:
- follow arrow in radar
- click anything with question mark or exclamation mark and accept or finish (no need to read the text)
- fight anything in the list on the right hand side of the screen until number before slash equals the one after.
Works perfectly!
I can't be bothered with it anymore. It's been a long time since I enjoyed games that are catered to pre-teens.
Vanilly WoW already did not have a very high challenge level, but now it's beyond rediculous. What's next? WoW for pre-schoolers?
Guess the OP is just trolling. Or bad in discussing. Still: MMORPGs ain't supposed to be complex. They have to apply to the masses. The masses don't want complex games. If a game is complex, the masses stay away or leave. If you want a complex game, don't play MMORPGs.
Originally posted by Chrisbox No alternate weapon slots is fine, they made it so that you know what you have to use and dont need anything extra. For example hunters only use Bows no melee now...Thats not a bad thing at all Im fine without having to worry about my stat stick.
You are so right. Except for the fact that now you have 1 to 2 less things to worry about. And for classes that use those 1-2 less things THEY dont have to re work their positioning or their abilities associated with them. Wands - bows - guns- throwing stuff. Dont worry- you just use the ability and bam it works. The 8 year old hunter can still shoot you now with his lil bow and not get rolled cause he has no idea how to melee / evade. But then again - the way it was was an " extra " thing you had to adapt to. An extra thing you had to use your brain for.
Yep, couldn't agree more. My 6 year old daughter loves playing the game. And she's actually quite good at it. No wonder, since you have no need to understand anything but:
- follow arrow in radar
- click anything with question mark or exclamation mark and accept or finish (no need to read the text)
- fight anything in the list on the right hand side of the screen until number before slash equals the one after.
Works perfectly!
I can't be bothered with it anymore. It's been a long time since I enjoyed games that are catered to pre-teens.
Vanilly WoW already did not have a very high challenge level, but now it's beyond rediculous. What's next? WoW for pre-schoolers?
She's probably better than you, and also a better liar.
Originally posted by MMOExposed so first people complain that people stay in cities all the time, but when Blizzard gives you a reason not to go to cities, you also complain? interesting.
Ive seen your posts and IM pretty sure your smart enough to know the difference between not leaving the cities and using the cities for a specfic purpose then leaving again.
Originally posted by Chrisbox No alternate weapon slots is fine, they made it so that you know what you have to use and dont need anything extra. For example hunters only use Bows no melee now...Thats not a bad thing at all Im fine without having to worry about my stat stick.
You are so right. Except for the fact that now you have 1 to 2 less things to worry about. And for classes that use those 1-2 less things THEY dont have to re work their positioning or their abilities associated with them. Wands - bows - guns- throwing stuff. Dont worry- you just use the ability and bam it works. The 8 year old hunter can still shoot you now with his lil bow and not get rolled cause he has no idea how to melee / evade. But then again - the way it was was an " extra " thing you had to adapt to. An extra thing you had to use your brain for.
Yep, couldn't agree more. My 6 year old daughter loves playing the game. And she's actually quite good at it. No wonder, since you have no need to understand anything but:
- follow arrow in radar
- click anything with question mark or exclamation mark and accept or finish (no need to read the text)
- fight anything in the list on the right hand side of the screen until number before slash equals the one after.
Works perfectly!
I can't be bothered with it anymore. It's been a long time since I enjoyed games that are catered to pre-teens.
Vanilly WoW already did not have a very high challenge level, but now it's beyond rediculous. What's next? WoW for pre-schoolers?
She's probably better than you, and also a better liar.
Well I tried out the sample edition of World of Warcraft lately. I am so glad I did that instead of re-subbing my old account. I don't even recognize the game any more.
No talent trees? No alternate weapons slots? WTF? No reason to see trainers except to respec?
This game just keeps getting more and more watered down with every expansion.
What a shame.
Goodby World of Warcraft, hello World of Weaksauce.
There's a lot I could say about the whole post, but I'll stick to this.....
Did you find going to your trainer every few levels a particularly skill-based, challenging encounter during the game?
Going to the trainer was nothing more than a complete 100% time sink that did nothing for the challenge of the game nor did it present you with any challenge. Just time. This is not a sound argument for them 'watering it down'. But I've heard it before, and I'll here it again.
Yep, couldn't agree more. My 6 year old daughter loves playing the game. And she's actually quite good at it. No wonder, since you have no need to understand anything but:
- follow arrow in radar
- click anything with question mark or exclamation mark and accept or finish (no need to read the text)
- fight anything in the list on the right hand side of the screen until number before slash equals the one after.
Works perfectly!
I can't be bothered with it anymore. It's been a long time since I enjoyed games that are catered to pre-teens.
Vanilly WoW already did not have a very high challenge level, but now it's beyond rediculous. What's next? WoW for pre-schoolers?
She's probably better than you, and also a better liar.
are you very sure that she is she ?
Generally, that would be the logical guess.
But I'm curious about this argument. If it caters to pre-teens and 6 year olds, how does their average player base always come out to '28'?
And before you decide to actually insult the adults; remember for every idiot adult you find, I can find two Phd's who play.
10 million people. And you guys think they are trying to appeal to 'just kids'.
There's a lot I could say about the whole post, but I'll stick to this.....
Did you find going to your trainer every few levels a particularly skill-based, challenging encounter during the game?
Going to the trainer was nothing more than a complete 100% time sink that did nothing for the challenge of the game nor did it present you with any challenge. Just time. This is not a sound argument for them 'watering it down'. But I've heard it before, and I'll here it again.
Seems like you dont have anything to say.
Those skills cost money,also there were skills that you could not get even from trainers,also pets had skills that you had to learn from monster and then teach to your pets,but you dont know that since you never were there playing,its just time sink,money is time sink,fighting is time sink,traverilng is time sink ,to you ofcourse.
There's a lot I could say about the whole post, but I'll stick to this.....
Did you find going to your trainer every few levels a particularly skill-based, challenging encounter during the game?
Going to the trainer was nothing more than a complete 100% time sink that did nothing for the challenge of the game nor did it present you with any challenge. Just time. This is not a sound argument for them 'watering it down'. But I've heard it before, and I'll here it again.
Seems like you dont have anything to say.
Those skills cost money,also there were skills that you could not get even from trainers,also pets had skills that you had to learn from monster and then teach to your pets,but you dont know that since you never were there playing,its just time sink,money is time sink,fighting is time sink,traverilng is time sink ,to you ofcourse.
If you had problems obtaining the money for your skills on anything but your very first toon in Vanilla, I'd be more than surprised. In fact, I might point out that the challenge you faced saving up that money, was a challenge to you and you alone.
Did I have to save money to go to the trainer in vanilla? Yes. Once.
And what exactly do the pet skills have to do with the trainer? The pet changes are a separate issue from the trainers.
I did not say that WoW had not been watered down.
I did say that trainers had become a time sink which presented no challenge to the game. This is factually true for arguably 6 years out of the eight WoW has existed. And I would argue, along with others, that trainers had not posed a real challenge ever.
I didn't parse your whole statement. I agree that WoW is easier than it used to be. But I disagree that 'trainers changes' is good supporting evidence of this. But it is nice that when I disagreed with one small aspect of your argument, you decided to insinuate I didn't play WoW and discount me entirely.
I'm sorry. But for me, trainers were a pavlovian time sink, and those complaining about its removal are complaining about a habit they had developed in the game which served very very little purpose.
But more and more I get tired of this argument.
Since its inception, WoW has been the game on easy mode. You all are fooling yourselves to think that at one time WoW was touted as a 'challenging' game. Was it more challenging in the beginning? Yes. But at release, compared to EQ or AC or SWG, the number one complaint was, 'this is just a watered down mmo on easy mode'.
Let me repeat that:
The number one complaint about WoW since day 1 was,
'it is watered down on easy mode'.
So when I hear these arguments about 'they've watered it down' from former vanilla players, I feel like they are saying, 'we used to be the brightest kid in the special ed room'.
I guess, however, you did answer my question:
Did you find going to your trainer every few levels a particularly skill-based, challenging encounter during the game?
And your answer, based on your insinuations, I'm assuming is:
Yes, going to the trainer every few levels was a particularly skill-based challenge. Games too easy now. I don't have to travel to a trainer every few levels. And although for 99% of the games history it hasn't been this way, I remember once having to save some money for spells. And I found that engrossing and challenging, and one of the major aspects of WoW's appeal as a difficult, skill-based game for hardcore players only. And if you don't agree with me, you obviously weren't there.
At OP: if you originally played WoW because of it's *cough* "rigorous" talent system, ability to shoot a bow on a warrior or wand with a caster, and to speak with trainers to acquire abilities, and now "can't recognize it" because it removed those things, then let's face it, you absolutely diid not "get" the game to begin with.
Or maybe you had already made up your mind that the game was no longer worth playing, and to "prove" this to yourself you downloaded a trial, played it briefly and came up with the most immediate differences you noticed for why it was not longer worth playing.
In reguards to the talent trees being changed, it was more than needed, after 8 years it was retarded how bloated they were, now with the new system you just pick one of the three old skills you would of gotten from the old threes and dont need to deal with all the +1 to crit talents and other things that are just space fillers.
If anything this new system allows you to really have a more unique build, you can take a skill that was only for prot tho you can be dps, and the other way around, right now im leveling a warrior and i have a bunch of the dps skills that i normally wouldnt have had and its making things much easier on me.
There's a lot I could say about the whole post, but I'll stick to this.....
Did you find going to your trainer every few levels a particularly skill-based, challenging encounter during the game?
Going to the trainer was nothing more than a complete 100% time sink that did nothing for the challenge of the game nor did it present you with any challenge. Just time. This is not a sound argument for them 'watering it down'. But I've heard it before, and I'll here it again.
Seems like you dont have anything to say.
Those skills cost money,also there were skills that you could not get even from trainers,also pets had skills that you had to learn from monster and then teach to your pets,but you dont know that since you never were there playing,its just time sink,money is time sink,fighting is time sink,traverilng is time sink ,to you ofcourse.
If you had problems obtaining the money for your skills on anything but your very first toon in Vanilla, I'd be more than surprised. In fact, I might point out that the challenge you faced saving up that money, was a challenge to you and you alone.
Did I have to save money to go to the trainer in vanilla? Yes. Once.
And what exactly do the pet skills have to do with the trainer? The pet changes are a separate issue from the trainers.
I did not say that WoW had not been watered down.
I did say that trainers had become a time sink which presented no challenge to the game. This is factually true for arguably 6 years out of the eight WoW has existed. And I would argue, along with others, that trainers had not posed a real challenge ever.
I didn't parse your whole statement. I agree that WoW is easier than it used to be. But I disagree that 'trainers changes' is good supporting evidence of this. But it is nice that when I disagreed with one small aspect of your argument, you decided to insinuate I didn't play WoW and discount me entirely.
I'm sorry. But for me, trainers were a pavlovian time sink, and those complaining about its removal are complaining about a habit they had developed in the game which served very very little purpose.
But more and more I get tired of this argument.
Since its inception, WoW has been the game on easy mode. You all are fooling yourselves to think that at one time WoW was touted as a 'challenging' game. Was it more challenging in the beginning? Yes. But at release, compared to EQ or AC or SWG, the number one complaint was, 'this is just a watered down mmo on easy mode'.
Let me repeat that:
The number one complaint about WoW since day 1 was,
'it is watered down on easy mode'.
So when I hear these arguments about 'they've watered it down' from former vanilla players, I feel like they are saying, 'we used to be the brightest kid in the special ed room'.
Well how to say this,somewhere there in the internet is a story how some hunter soloes was it BRD? i cant remember,but he does something amazing by soloing it and getting that bite 6 or 7 skill for his pet.
now compare that adventure to press mouse button once and you got it system.
theres a huge difference,there is no stories how i pressed mouse button and look what i got,well actually there is but i find those quite boring,like look my build ? isnt it amazing? how did you made it? well ,left mouse click.
Comments
You see, that is where your camp and mine differ. For us, it isn't the end of the road that matters. It's the journey. But you are right about one thing. As it stands now WoW isn't for me. That is the whole point of my OP.
Ask that of every mature game out there. The latest expansion trivializes the previous content.
Wow... I pretty much agree with errthing you said... Let me take a moment to drink this in.. .it's refreshing. You Sir. I like you.
His point was WoW has almost always been about the end. It is a raiding game pretty much always has been. Lol I enjoy a long journey as much if not more than you do. I'm an EvE vet sir. My journey was longer than what WoW's journey ever was. I did not like what they did to WoW either beleive me. However MoP is a decent expansion. We are going to have to get over that fact. Vanilla and TBC( my favorite) is gone and not coming back.
Come to better one, 2 days left to expansion release >> http://stormlegion.riftgame.com
Yep, couldn't agree more. My 6 year old daughter loves playing the game. And she's actually quite good at it. No wonder, since you have no need to understand anything but:
- follow arrow in radar
- click anything with question mark or exclamation mark and accept or finish (no need to read the text)
- fight anything in the list on the right hand side of the screen until number before slash equals the one after.
Works perfectly!
I can't be bothered with it anymore. It's been a long time since I enjoyed games that are catered to pre-teens.
Vanilly WoW already did not have a very high challenge level, but now it's beyond rediculous. What's next? WoW for pre-schoolers?
Guess the OP is just trolling. Or bad in discussing. Still: MMORPGs ain't supposed to be complex. They have to apply to the masses. The masses don't want complex games. If a game is complex, the masses stay away or leave. If you want a complex game, don't play MMORPGs.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
She's probably better than you, and also a better liar.
Ive seen your posts and IM pretty sure your smart enough to know the difference between not leaving the cities and using the cities for a specfic purpose then leaving again.
are you very sure that she is she ?
There's a lot I could say about the whole post, but I'll stick to this.....
Did you find going to your trainer every few levels a particularly skill-based, challenging encounter during the game?
Going to the trainer was nothing more than a complete 100% time sink that did nothing for the challenge of the game nor did it present you with any challenge. Just time. This is not a sound argument for them 'watering it down'. But I've heard it before, and I'll here it again.
Generally, that would be the logical guess.
But I'm curious about this argument. If it caters to pre-teens and 6 year olds, how does their average player base always come out to '28'?
And before you decide to actually insult the adults; remember for every idiot adult you find, I can find two Phd's who play.
10 million people. And you guys think they are trying to appeal to 'just kids'.
I find this a child-like argument.
Seems like you dont have anything to say.
Those skills cost money,also there were skills that you could not get even from trainers,also pets had skills that you had to learn from monster and then teach to your pets,but you dont know that since you never were there playing,its just time sink,money is time sink,fighting is time sink,traverilng is time sink ,to you ofcourse.
Let's internet
If you had problems obtaining the money for your skills on anything but your very first toon in Vanilla, I'd be more than surprised. In fact, I might point out that the challenge you faced saving up that money, was a challenge to you and you alone.
Did I have to save money to go to the trainer in vanilla? Yes. Once.
And what exactly do the pet skills have to do with the trainer? The pet changes are a separate issue from the trainers.
I did not say that WoW had not been watered down.
I did say that trainers had become a time sink which presented no challenge to the game. This is factually true for arguably 6 years out of the eight WoW has existed. And I would argue, along with others, that trainers had not posed a real challenge ever.
I didn't parse your whole statement. I agree that WoW is easier than it used to be. But I disagree that 'trainers changes' is good supporting evidence of this. But it is nice that when I disagreed with one small aspect of your argument, you decided to insinuate I didn't play WoW and discount me entirely.
I'm sorry. But for me, trainers were a pavlovian time sink, and those complaining about its removal are complaining about a habit they had developed in the game which served very very little purpose.
But more and more I get tired of this argument.
Since its inception, WoW has been the game on easy mode. You all are fooling yourselves to think that at one time WoW was touted as a 'challenging' game. Was it more challenging in the beginning? Yes. But at release, compared to EQ or AC or SWG, the number one complaint was, 'this is just a watered down mmo on easy mode'.
Let me repeat that:
The number one complaint about WoW since day 1 was,
'it is watered down on easy mode'.
So when I hear these arguments about 'they've watered it down' from former vanilla players, I feel like they are saying, 'we used to be the brightest kid in the special ed room'.
I guess, however, you did answer my question:
Did you find going to your trainer every few levels a particularly skill-based, challenging encounter during the game?
And your answer, based on your insinuations, I'm assuming is:
Yes, going to the trainer every few levels was a particularly skill-based challenge. Games too easy now. I don't have to travel to a trainer every few levels. And although for 99% of the games history it hasn't been this way, I remember once having to save some money for spells. And I found that engrossing and challenging, and one of the major aspects of WoW's appeal as a difficult, skill-based game for hardcore players only. And if you don't agree with me, you obviously weren't there.
This nails it pretty much for the OP
In reguards to the talent trees being changed, it was more than needed, after 8 years it was retarded how bloated they were, now with the new system you just pick one of the three old skills you would of gotten from the old threes and dont need to deal with all the +1 to crit talents and other things that are just space fillers.
If anything this new system allows you to really have a more unique build, you can take a skill that was only for prot tho you can be dps, and the other way around, right now im leveling a warrior and i have a bunch of the dps skills that i normally wouldnt have had and its making things much easier on me.
Well how to say this,somewhere there in the internet is a story how some hunter soloes was it BRD? i cant remember,but he does something amazing by soloing it and getting that bite 6 or 7 skill for his pet.
now compare that adventure to press mouse button once and you got it system.
theres a huge difference,there is no stories how i pressed mouse button and look what i got,well actually there is but i find those quite boring,like look my build ? isnt it amazing? how did you made it? well ,left mouse click.
Let's internet