Originally posted by ShakyMo Agree with everything you say plink apart from the mounts.
It should take time to reinforce, that was one of the things warhammer did wrong, it was too easy to get back into combat, especially when bioware took over and introduced the stupid rezzing inside keeps. You need consequences for dieing, it doesn't have to be xp loss or being looted, a gw2 / daoc style very long walk is enough.
Maybe, but the "higher death penalties work against the zerg" is a logical fallacy I encounter a lot on this board. High death penalties actually favor the zerg - safety in numbers and all. It's simple game theory 101. I know many believe that "punishing" that douchebag who is obviously not doing his job would make him play better, but the actual fact is that he would much more probably just leave.
What really is a zerg? Why do players join zergs? Because zergs provide safety - safety in terms of rewards and safety in being shielded from punishment in case of dying (someone can revive you, there is a greater chance your force will be stronger than the opponents). In WvW you die mostly through no fault of your own. You simply stumble into an overwhelming force, and that is part of the fun. There is no justice in being severely punished just because you had bad luck. If you decrease punishment, the motivation to join a zerg lessens. It's all about risk vs reward and not the need to "educate players to play better." Severe individual punishment can work in games that are "fair" in individual fights otherwise it's just unfair and frustrating. I find current WvW costs and punishments for dying right at the very edge of what I can stand before feeling unfairly put-down by a game. And from all my RvR and PvP experience so far, lower penalties for dying = more daring, more heroic deeds, better player spread across the map and more PvP in general.
Actually please do. Because I can see fk all wrong with having a small amount of content in a game you have to compete over when the game is already full of content accessible to everyone.
It should be as clear as day what's wrong with the idea that people can't have stuff to compete over just because some people want access to everything all the time.
This is an over arching issue that can be seen in all the games reward systems. Good eye.
Well with the Orbs removed due to hackers which for some reason they could not fix, DAOC had it for 10 years and never these issues, there is little or no reason to WvW. Let me restate that, there is not a main objective. With most of the hardcore PvP guilds gone or dying in NA they need to spruce up the WvW, whether it be a ranking system ala DAOC and WAR, guild perks that give incentive to defend their keep or many of the ideas stated by PP.
Funny thing is we had 2 keeps last night taken by the stealth hack which was supposedly fixed, yeah I know SS or it did not happen, if you actually WvW on a consistent basis and not just say you do you would know what I am talking about.
Nevermind the PvP...the PvE too, heck, even leveling above level 40 seems like it was just put in for you to do it and nothing else, I don't get any new skills, any new weapons or any new traits.
I'm the same character from 40-80. Then at 80 still nothing changes and I do dungeons for 3 days to get exotics that change my stats a bit I guess, then I'm out of PvE to do, and I can PvP which also dries up very fast.
It lacks community and purpose...therefore it gets stale very quickly, yesterday I actually decided to go back to TERA to prep for whenever they release ranked Arena.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Agree with everything you say plink apart from the mounts.
It should take time to reinforce, that was one of the things warhammer did wrong, it was too easy to get back into combat, especially when bioware took over and introduced the stupid rezzing inside keeps. You need consequences for dieing, it doesn't have to be xp loss or being looted, a gw2 / daoc style very long walk is enough.
Maybe, but the "higher death penalties work against the zerg" is a logical fallacy I encounter a lot on this board. High death penalties actually favor the zerg - safety in numbers and all. It's simple game theory 101. I know many believe that "punishing" that douchebag who is obviously not doing his job would make him play better, but the actual fact is that he would much more probably just leave.
What really is a zerg? Why do players join zergs? Because zergs provide safety - safety in terms of rewards and safety in being shielded from punishment in case of dying (someone can revive you, there is a greater chance your force will be stronger than the opponents). In WvW you die mostly through no fault of your own. You simply stumble into an overwhelming force, and that is part of the fun. There is no justice in being severely punished just because you had bad luck. If you decrease punishment, the motivation to join a zerg lessens. It's all about risk vs reward and not the need to "educate players to play better." Severe individual punishment can work in games that are "fair" in individual fights otherwise it's just unfair and frustrating. I find current WvW costs and punishments for dying right at the very edge of what I can stand before feeling unfairly put-down by a game. And from all my RvR and PvP experience so far, lower penalties for dying = more daring, more heroic deeds, better player spread across the map and more PvP in general.
People join Zergs because
1. They suck in PvP and want to feel cool running with the pack.
2. Because they cannot think for themselves
3. They are new to the area which is not a bad thing to stay with the zerg but it just makes the zerg that much larger
4.Their server has zero coordination within the guilds which leads to themindless zerg just reacting instead of being proactive.
5. There is little to no incentive for Small Unit Tactics
Originally posted by ShakyMo Agree with everything you say plink apart from the mounts.
It should take time to reinforce, that was one of the things warhammer did wrong, it was too easy to get back into combat, especially when bioware took over and introduced the stupid rezzing inside keeps. You need consequences for dieing, it doesn't have to be xp loss or being looted, a gw2 / daoc style very long walk is enough.
Maybe, but the "higher death penalties work against the zerg" is a logical fallacy I encounter a lot on this board. High death penalties actually favor the zerg - safety in numbers and all. It's simple game theory 101. I know many believe that "punishing" that douchebag who is obviously not doing his job would make him play better, but the actual fact is that he would much more probably just leave.
What really is a zerg? Why do players join zergs? Because zergs provide safety - safety in terms of rewards and safety in being shielded from punishment in case of dying (someone can revive you, there is a greater chance your force will be stronger than the opponents). In WvW you die mostly through no fault of your own. You simply stumble into an overwhelming force, and that is part of the fun. There is no justice in being severely punished just because you had bad luck. If you decrease punishment, the motivation to join a zerg lessens. It's all about risk vs reward and not the need to "educate players to play better." Severe individual punishment can work in games that are "fair" in individual fights otherwise it's just unfair and frustrating. I find current WvW costs and punishments for dying right at the very edge of what I can stand before feeling unfairly put-down by a game. And from all my RvR and PvP experience so far, lower penalties for dying = more daring, more heroic deeds, better player spread across the map and more PvP in general.
People join Zergs because
1. They suck in PvP and want to feel cool running with the pack.
2. Because they cannot think for themselves
3. They are new to the area which is not a bad thing to stay with the zerg but it just makes the zerg that much larger
4.Their server has zero coordination within the guilds which leads to themindless zerg just reacting instead of being proactive.
5. There is little to no incentive for Small Unit Tactics
I don't suck in PvP and I run with the zerg. Also I think for myself and run with the zerg. The reason I run with the zerg is that I cannot stand being run over by another server's zerg while playing on my own or in a small group... and then being forced to repair and run, run, run...
Sorry mate, but people who zerg are not morons who can't play. People will tend to do what profits them the most. This is the way of games. Players will not do things that are not profitable for them in a cost/benefit calculation. For me, a bad player is the one who goes off alone like a rambo in a game which clearly favors zerging... or the one who zergs in a game which clearly gives better rewards for solo/small group play.
As for the other points (3-5) I do agree, especially no 5. However "incentive" is comprised of both the potential penalties as well as rewards. Playing small units at the moment is not viable because on average the penalties are harsher than rewards. A small heoric unit will eventualy get roflstomped by a zerg and that is as it should be, however, the rewards the said small unit will obtain while alive will be lower than the cost in repairs and especially downtime (aka running). I might admire such a small unit, but I wouldn't consider them good players because they are working against their own interest. At the moment a "better" player would maximize his gain by joining a zerg.
And that is the whole point - if the game gives the best rewards/penalties ratio for zerging, players will zerg. Those who don't will fall behind and eventually either adopt the dominant behavior or leave in disgust. GW2's WvW needs to change the way penalties and rewards work to make some other type of play more rewarding than zerging. It is as simple as that and has nothing to do with how "good" the players are.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Agree with everything you say plink apart from the mounts.
It should take time to reinforce, that was one of the things warhammer did wrong, it was too easy to get back into combat, especially when bioware took over and introduced the stupid rezzing inside keeps. You need consequences for dieing, it doesn't have to be xp loss or being looted, a gw2 / daoc style very long walk is enough.
Maybe, but the "higher death penalties work against the zerg" is a logical fallacy I encounter a lot on this board. High death penalties actually favor the zerg - safety in numbers and all. It's simple game theory 101. I know many believe that "punishing" that douchebag who is obviously not doing his job would make him play better, but the actual fact is that he would much more probably just leave.
What really is a zerg? Why do players join zergs? Because zergs provide safety - safety in terms of rewards and safety in being shielded from punishment in case of dying (someone can revive you, there is a greater chance your force will be stronger than the opponents). In WvW you die mostly through no fault of your own. You simply stumble into an overwhelming force, and that is part of the fun. There is no justice in being severely punished just because you had bad luck. If you decrease punishment, the motivation to join a zerg lessens. It's all about risk vs reward and not the need to "educate players to play better." Severe individual punishment can work in games that are "fair" in individual fights otherwise it's just unfair and frustrating. I find current WvW costs and punishments for dying right at the very edge of what I can stand before feeling unfairly put-down by a game. And from all my RvR and PvP experience so far, lower penalties for dying = more daring, more heroic deeds, better player spread across the map and more PvP in general.
People join Zergs because
1. They suck in PvP and want to feel cool running with the pack.
2. Because they cannot think for themselves
3. They are new to the area which is not a bad thing to stay with the zerg but it just makes the zerg that much larger
4.Their server has zero coordination within the guilds which leads to themindless zerg just reacting instead of being proactive.
5. There is little to no incentive for Small Unit Tactics
I don't suck in PvP and I run with the zerg. Also I think for myself and run with the zerg. The reason I run with the zerg is that I cannot stand being run over by another server's zerg while playing on my own or in a small group... and then being forced to repair and run, run, run...
Sorry mate, but people who zerg are not morons who can't play. People will tend to do what profits them the most. This is the way of games. Players will not do things that are not profitable for them in a cost/benefit calculation. For me, a bad player is the one who goes off alone like a rambo in a game which clearly favors zerging... or the one who zergs in a game which clearly gives better rewards for solo/small group play.
As for the other points (3-5) I do agree, especially no 5. However "incentive" is comprised of both the potential penalties as well as rewards. Playing small units at the moment is not viable because on average the penalties are harsher than rewards. A small heoric unit will eventualy get roflstomped by a zerg and that is as it should be, however, the rewards the said small unit will obtain while alive will be lower than the cost in repairs and especially downtime (aka running). I might admire such a small unit, but I wouldn't consider them good players because they are working against their own interest. At the moment a "better" player would maximize his gain by joining a zerg.
And that is the whole point - if the game gives the greatest rewards for zerging, players will zerg. Those who don't will fall behind and eventually either adopt the dominant behavior or leave in disgust. GW2's WvW needs to change the way penalties and rewards work to make some other type of play more rewarding than zerging. It is as simple as that and has nothing to do with how "good" the players are.
I will stand corrected on point 1 to a degree and add as the number one reason people zerg is because this game rewards the zerg,which to me ruins the WvW and hence the less and less I play anymore.To tell me though there are not some really really bad players in the zerg though is BS. DAOC had some zerging but it also had a ton of small teams out there running around, like stealth gank squads, scout teams etc. That said this is more a casual PvP experience then hardcore which is a shame because at least GW1 provided some of the best PvP I have enjoyed with good rewards to boot.
The better PvP guilds are either migrating to the top servers or just leaving, we used to have 2-3 hour waits for WvW now it is instant, that alone speaks volumes. If they don't do something soon there won't be a whole hell of a lot good WvW left.
The current system is based on server pride in order to strengthen the community therein. From what I've witnessed, that has seen a lot of success, though my testimony is mostly heresay. But here, I'm from Fort Aspenwood Alliance in the guild GODS and couldn't be more happy with the coordination between multiple guilds and the recognition of allied strength across the server as a whole. We don't win them all, but we don't give up either.
The system you're attempting to propose would cut off content from 2/3rds of the entire game's playerbase at any one time. I shouldn't have to point out to you everything that's wrong with that.
That's the sacrifice that has to be made if people want higher stakes from WvW. Create a zone or two and dungeon or two that give unique armour sets and weapon sets and these can only be accessed through winning WvW matches.
Why was warhammer more zergy then. Pretty much Instantly back in the action No repair costs (although gw2 should drop repairs in pvp imo) Gear drops from players Best way to gear up / earn cash
The current system is based on server pride in order to strengthen the community therein. From what I've witnessed, that has seen a lot of success, though my testimony is mostly heresay. But here, I'm from Fort Aspenwood Alliance in the guild GODS and couldn't be more happy with the coordination between multiple guilds and the recognition of allied strength across the server as a whole. We don't win them all, but we don't give up either.
The system you're attempting to propose would cut off content from 2/3rds of the entire game's playerbase at any one time. I shouldn't have to point out to you everything that's wrong with that.
That's the sacrifice that has to be made if people want higher stakes from WvW. Create a zone or two and dungeon or two that give unique armour sets and weapon sets and these can only be accessed through winning WvW matches.
Won't happen due to the fact this game caters to casual PvPers more so then the hardcore PvPers who are leaving. Funny thing is I tried Desolation a EU english speaking server and found the WvW to be 10x better, lots of coordination, fewer zergs etc.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Why was warhammer more zergy then. Pretty much Instantly back in the action No repair costs (although gw2 should drop repairs in pvp imo) Gear drops from players Best way to gear up / earn cash
It was the least punishment for dying game yet
Nope. It was zergy because they had their strategic gameplay all screwed up. If you followed the game, the zerg all but disappeared when they made changes to their strategic game - especially when they introduced resource runners and generally tweaked the rewards so that zerging didn't pay off as much.
Harsher death penalties would have made WAR even more zergy. Zerg is safety in numbers, and you value your safety more the higher the penalties for dying are.
Ideally, a game with "communal PvP" should have an exact correspondence between the fate of the group (the server) and the individual (the player). Why should a player be excessively punished for doing something beneficial to the group? As mentioned, a small team may do a lot of good for their GW2 server, but their penalty/reward over time ratio is much worse than for a mindless zerg hopping from keep to keep. The individual death penalties should be decreased - either that or remove universal ressing. At the moment, a zerg is the best place to be.
My "half-life" while solo/small group is 10 minutes... during which I hope I won't meet the enemy (and attendant xp and rewards) because there is a good chance of being overwhelmed and forced to respawn with all the repairs and running, running, running... While zerging I'm assured of being ressed all the time, having rewards trickle pretty continuously and I can even let my brain rest a little. If they decreased the death penalties, I would be more willing to go off on my own and take risks, however at the moment zerg-style keep-hopping play is definitely the best choice for any player who is not into masochism.
Well with the Orbs removed due to hackers which for some reason they could not fix, DAOC had it for 10 years and never these issues, there is little or no reason to WvW. Let me restate that, there is not a main objective. With most of the hardcore PvP guilds gone or dying in NA they need to spruce up the WvW, whether it be a ranking system ala DAOC and WAR, guild perks that give incentive to defend their keep or many of the ideas stated by PP.
Funny thing is we had 2 keeps last night taken by the stealth hack which was supposedly fixed, yeah I know SS or it did not happen, if you actually WvW on a consistent basis and not just say you do you would know what I am talking about.
However a game that revolves around "rewards" is not what they intended to create. I realize that many of you do not like this new design, but maybe it is just time that you just realize that the game perhaps is not for you. Noone is forcing you to play.
Nevermind the PvP...the PvE too, heck, even leveling above level 40 seems like it was just put in for you to do it and nothing else, I don't get any new skills, any new weapons or any new traits.
I'm the same character from 40-80. Then at 80 still nothing changes and I do dungeons for 3 days to get exotics that change my stats a bit I guess, then I'm out of PvE to do, and I can PvP which also dries up very fast.
It lacks community and purpose...therefore it gets stale very quickly, yesterday I actually decided to go back to TERA to prep for whenever they release ranked Arena.
You seem to have been psychologically conditioned by previous MMORPGs. I feel sorry for you and hope that you get cured some day. Lots of people used to play Counter-Strike for pure fun, to just have a good time without any deeper "purpose", and that's what GW2 is trying to mirror.
The current system is based on server pride in order to strengthen the community therein. From what I've witnessed, that has seen a lot of success, though my testimony is mostly heresay. But here, I'm from Fort Aspenwood Alliance in the guild GODS and couldn't be more happy with the coordination between multiple guilds and the recognition of allied strength across the server as a whole. We don't win them all, but we don't give up either.
The system you're attempting to propose would cut off content from 2/3rds of the entire game's playerbase at any one time. I shouldn't have to point out to you everything that's wrong with that.
That's the sacrifice that has to be made if people want higher stakes from WvW. Create a zone or two and dungeon or two that give unique armour sets and weapon sets and these can only be accessed through winning WvW matches.
It's been tried. The results are win trading. "You let us win this week and we'll let you win next." It has a long lineage from DAOC to SWTOR.
That wouldn't be a problem in GW2. It would be considered as an "exploit" and therefore give them reason to use the banhammer on you.
The current system is based on server pride in order to strengthen the community therein. From what I've witnessed, that has seen a lot of success, though my testimony is mostly heresay. But here, I'm from Fort Aspenwood Alliance in the guild GODS and couldn't be more happy with the coordination between multiple guilds and the recognition of allied strength across the server as a whole. We don't win them all, but we don't give up either.
The system you're attempting to propose would cut off content from 2/3rds of the entire game's playerbase at any one time. I shouldn't have to point out to you everything that's wrong with that.
That's the sacrifice that has to be made if people want higher stakes from WvW. Create a zone or two and dungeon or two that give unique armour sets and weapon sets and these can only be accessed through winning WvW matches.
It's been tried. The results are win trading. "You let us win this week and we'll let you win next." It has a long lineage from DAOC to SWTOR.
That wouldn't be a problem in GW2. It would be considered as an "exploit" and therefore give them reason to use the banhammer on you.
It was an exploit in all of those games too. It's also almost impossible to prove.
I have confidence in that GW2's team are gifted and intelligent enough to deal with it appropiately.
Well with the Orbs removed due to hackers which for some reason they could not fix, DAOC had it for 10 years and never these issues, there is little or no reason to WvW. Let me restate that, there is not a main objective. With most of the hardcore PvP guilds gone or dying in NA they need to spruce up the WvW, whether it be a ranking system ala DAOC and WAR, guild perks that give incentive to defend their keep or many of the ideas stated by PP.
Funny thing is we had 2 keeps last night taken by the stealth hack which was supposedly fixed, yeah I know SS or it did not happen, if you actually WvW on a consistent basis and not just say you do you would know what I am talking about.
However a game that revolves around "rewards" is not what they intended to create. I realize that many of you do not like this new design, but maybe it is just time that you just realize that the game perhaps is not for you. Noone is forcing you to play.
Lol, reading comprehension (or any comprehension) much?
Every game has its own rewards, duh. That is the point of games. You play games to get rewarded, if only with "joy in playing". In fact everything you do in life you do to either to get rewarded directly or indirectly (by avoiding punishment). Setting up a system for giving rewards and meting out "punishments" as well as defining what form they take is 90% of what is called "game design" duh.
Please be civil. Your "no one is forcing you to play" reveals your rudeness, incomprehension and all-out douchebaggery.
Well with the Orbs removed due to hackers which for some reason they could not fix, DAOC had it for 10 years and never these issues, there is little or no reason to WvW. Let me restate that, there is not a main objective. With most of the hardcore PvP guilds gone or dying in NA they need to spruce up the WvW, whether it be a ranking system ala DAOC and WAR, guild perks that give incentive to defend their keep or many of the ideas stated by PP.
Funny thing is we had 2 keeps last night taken by the stealth hack which was supposedly fixed, yeah I know SS or it did not happen, if you actually WvW on a consistent basis and not just say you do you would know what I am talking about.
However a game that revolves around "rewards" is not what they intended to create. I realize that many of you do not like this new design, but maybe it is just time that you just realize that the game perhaps is not for you. Noone is forcing you to play.
Lol, reading comprehension (or any comprehension) much?
Every game has its own rewards, duh. That is the point of games. You play games to get rewarded. In fact everything you do in life you do to either get rewarded directly or indirectly (by avoiding punishment). Setting up a system for giving rewards and meting out "punishments" is 90% of what is called "game design" duh.
Please be civil. Your "no one is forcing you to play" reveals your rudeness, incomprehension and all-out douchebaggery.
Not everyone has to get any "trophy" inside the game to feel like they are having fun. Sure there are rewards in form of "dopamine" for instance, but those are not the type of rewards that are being refered to.
The game is not for everyone and instead of wasting their time trying to convince the devs to go against their vision of the game, I suggest that they can simply leave the game. It is a civil and proper advice, in my opinion.
It was an exploit in all of those games too. It's also almost impossible to prove.
I have confidence in that GW2's team are gifted and intelligent enough to deal with it appropiately.
The kool-ade is strong with this one Obi-Wan.
Given the numerous trash games (with SWTOR as one example) we have received over the years, I have far more confidence in Arenanet than any other MMORPG company that has released a MMORPG during the past 7 years.
The current system is based on server pride in order to strengthen the community therein. From what I've witnessed, that has seen a lot of success, though my testimony is mostly heresay. But here, I'm from Fort Aspenwood Alliance in the guild GODS and couldn't be more happy with the coordination between multiple guilds and the recognition of allied strength across the server as a whole. We don't win them all, but we don't give up either.
The system you're attempting to propose would cut off content from 2/3rds of the entire game's playerbase at any one time. I shouldn't have to point out to you everything that's wrong with that.
Despite 2/3rds of the population being unable to access that particular peace of content, they still would have enough to do. I loved DAOC for its relic raids and Dark Falls runs. The latter being a dungeon that opened up to the strongest of three realms, still crawled with peeps from the other two factions who had gained access to it before your server. Only when you died in this dungeon you were kicked out. This led to some extremely fun battles inside Darkness fall to sweep it clean from any remaining foes.
"If I had the stars of the darkest nights or the diamonds from the deepest ocean, I would forsake them all for your sweet kiss"
Well with the Orbs removed due to hackers which for some reason they could not fix, DAOC had it for 10 years and never these issues, there is little or no reason to WvW. Let me restate that, there is not a main objective. With most of the hardcore PvP guilds gone or dying in NA they need to spruce up the WvW, whether it be a ranking system ala DAOC and WAR, guild perks that give incentive to defend their keep or many of the ideas stated by PP.
Funny thing is we had 2 keeps last night taken by the stealth hack which was supposedly fixed, yeah I know SS or it did not happen, if you actually WvW on a consistent basis and not just say you do you would know what I am talking about.
However a game that revolves around "rewards" is not what they intended to create. I realize that many of you do not like this new design, but maybe it is just time that you just realize that the game perhaps is not for you. Noone is forcing you to play.
Lol, reading comprehension (or any comprehension) much?
Every game has its own rewards, duh. That is the point of games. You play games to get rewarded, if only with "joy in playing". In fact everything you do in life you do to either to get rewarded directly or indirectly (by avoiding punishment). Setting up a system for giving rewards and meting out "punishments" as well as defining what form they take is 90% of what is called "game design" duh.
Please be civil. Your "no one is forcing you to play" reveals your rudeness, incomprehension and all-out douchebaggery.
It really doesn't, Plink; I fail to see how he's being hostile.
In a broad sense, you're right when analyzing his post. Fun is a reward. But his post highlights that the OP is asking for far more than fun. In fact, the OP is asking for developers to restrict players who are losing in WvW from some form of fun or possibly bigger rewards. It's not enough that their server pride is weakened and they get repair bills from constantly dying to a superior server, or their server doesn't benefit from increased node gathering or magic find or whatever else bonuses good servers can get even outside of WvW. No, they have to have something made completely inaccessible for it to be a successful game type? That's pretty damn anti-fun if you ask me.
And you also failed to describe how the poster above you is suffering from any reading comprehension. If the game does not cater to a playstyle you enjoy, because one of ArenaNet's largest philosophies is that fun comes before other artificial rewards like exclusive content or, more powerful items, then why do you continue to play that game?
TL;DR: OP is similar to coming into the game asking for some sort of gear treadmill to be put in place in PvE.
The current system is based on server pride in order to strengthen the community therein. From what I've witnessed, that has seen a lot of success, though my testimony is mostly heresay. But here, I'm from Fort Aspenwood Alliance in the guild GODS and couldn't be more happy with the coordination between multiple guilds and the recognition of allied strength across the server as a whole. We don't win them all, but we don't give up either.
The system you're attempting to propose would cut off content from 2/3rds of the entire game's playerbase at any one time. I shouldn't have to point out to you everything that's wrong with that.
Despite 2/3rds of the population being unable to access that particular peace of content, they still would have enough to do. I loved DAOC for its relic raids and Dark Falls runs. The latter being a dungeon that opened up to the strongest of three realms, still crawled with peeps from the other two factions who had gained access to it before your server. Only when you died in this dungeon you were kicked out. This led to some extremely fun battles inside Darkness fall to sweep it clean from any remaining foes.
Game design philosophy/elements of DAoC and Fark Fall, then, conflict with the game design philosophy of ArenaNet.
Well with the Orbs removed due to hackers which for some reason they could not fix, DAOC had it for 10 years and never these issues, there is little or no reason to WvW. Let me restate that, there is not a main objective. With most of the hardcore PvP guilds gone or dying in NA they need to spruce up the WvW, whether it be a ranking system ala DAOC and WAR, guild perks that give incentive to defend their keep or many of the ideas stated by PP.
Funny thing is we had 2 keeps last night taken by the stealth hack which was supposedly fixed, yeah I know SS or it did not happen, if you actually WvW on a consistent basis and not just say you do you would know what I am talking about.
However a game that revolves around "rewards" is not what they intended to create. I realize that many of you do not like this new design, but maybe it is just time that you just realize that the game perhaps is not for you. Noone is forcing you to play.
Lol, reading comprehension (or any comprehension) much?
Every game has its own rewards, duh. That is the point of games. You play games to get rewarded. In fact everything you do in life you do to either get rewarded directly or indirectly (by avoiding punishment). Setting up a system for giving rewards and meting out "punishments" is 90% of what is called "game design" duh.
Please be civil. Your "no one is forcing you to play" reveals your rudeness, incomprehension and all-out douchebaggery.
Not everyone has to get any "trophy" inside the game to feel like they are having fun. Sure there are rewards in form of "dopamine" for instance, but those are not the type of rewards that are being refered to.
The game is not for everyone and instead of wasting their time trying to convince the devs to go against their vision of the game, I suggest that they can simply leave the game. It is a civil and proper advice, in my opinion.
Man, you really are coming off high and mighty. Please, since you're so blessed to have the intimate knowlege of the devs vision of the game (which apparently doesnt include any kind of "rewards" for players /rolleyes and is so stellar and immovable in its perfection that only the most advanced among the mortals should be allowed to play it), will you be so kind to leave us uncouth brutes to our simple joys of discussing an mmo on an internet discussion board named "mmorpg.com"?
Originally posted by ShakyMo Agree with everything you say plink apart from the mounts.
It should take time to reinforce, that was one of the things warhammer did wrong, it was too easy to get back into combat, especially when bioware took over and introduced the stupid rezzing inside keeps. You need consequences for dieing, it doesn't have to be xp loss or being looted, a gw2 / daoc style very long walk is enough.
Maybe, but the "higher death penalties work against the zerg" is a logical fallacy I encounter a lot on this board. High death penalties actually favor the zerg - safety in numbers and all. It's simple game theory 101. I know many believe that "punishing" that douchebag who is obviously not doing his job would make him play better, but the actual fact is that he would much more probably just leave.
What really is a zerg? Why do players join zergs? Because zergs provide safety - safety in terms of rewards and safety in being shielded from punishment in case of dying (someone can revive you, there is a greater chance your force will be stronger than the opponents). In WvW you die mostly through no fault of your own. You simply stumble into an overwhelming force, and that is part of the fun. There is no justice in being severely punished just because you had bad luck. If you decrease punishment, the motivation to join a zerg lessens. It's all about risk vs reward and not the need to "educate players to play better." Severe individual punishment can work in games that are "fair" in individual fights otherwise it's just unfair and frustrating. I find current WvW costs and punishments for dying right at the very edge of what I can stand before feeling unfairly put-down by a game. And from all my RvR and PvP experience so far, lower penalties for dying = more daring, more heroic deeds, better player spread across the map and more PvP in general.
Totally agree with everything you said here and in your first post, Plink.
As for the zerg question, I look at it like this: Zergs are exactly how warfare was done IRL for most of human history. It's not really different in this game. The biggest difference in WvWvW is having someone take command and direct the zerg appropriately.
And, I'd love to see less punishment to allow for those more heroic deeds, especially if they allowed player names in WvWvW.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Comments
Another option would be capturable graveyards that act as additional respawn points.
Maybe, but the "higher death penalties work against the zerg" is a logical fallacy I encounter a lot on this board. High death penalties actually favor the zerg - safety in numbers and all. It's simple game theory 101. I know many believe that "punishing" that douchebag who is obviously not doing his job would make him play better, but the actual fact is that he would much more probably just leave.
What really is a zerg? Why do players join zergs? Because zergs provide safety - safety in terms of rewards and safety in being shielded from punishment in case of dying (someone can revive you, there is a greater chance your force will be stronger than the opponents). In WvW you die mostly through no fault of your own. You simply stumble into an overwhelming force, and that is part of the fun. There is no justice in being severely punished just because you had bad luck. If you decrease punishment, the motivation to join a zerg lessens. It's all about risk vs reward and not the need to "educate players to play better." Severe individual punishment can work in games that are "fair" in individual fights otherwise it's just unfair and frustrating. I find current WvW costs and punishments for dying right at the very edge of what I can stand before feeling unfairly put-down by a game. And from all my RvR and PvP experience so far, lower penalties for dying = more daring, more heroic deeds, better player spread across the map and more PvP in general.
This is an over arching issue that can be seen in all the games reward systems. Good eye.
Well with the Orbs removed due to hackers which for some reason they could not fix, DAOC had it for 10 years and never these issues, there is little or no reason to WvW. Let me restate that, there is not a main objective. With most of the hardcore PvP guilds gone or dying in NA they need to spruce up the WvW, whether it be a ranking system ala DAOC and WAR, guild perks that give incentive to defend their keep or many of the ideas stated by PP.
Funny thing is we had 2 keeps last night taken by the stealth hack which was supposedly fixed, yeah I know SS or it did not happen, if you actually WvW on a consistent basis and not just say you do you would know what I am talking about.
Nevermind the PvP...the PvE too, heck, even leveling above level 40 seems like it was just put in for you to do it and nothing else, I don't get any new skills, any new weapons or any new traits.
I'm the same character from 40-80. Then at 80 still nothing changes and I do dungeons for 3 days to get exotics that change my stats a bit I guess, then I'm out of PvE to do, and I can PvP which also dries up very fast.
It lacks community and purpose...therefore it gets stale very quickly, yesterday I actually decided to go back to TERA to prep for whenever they release ranked Arena.
People join Zergs because
1. They suck in PvP and want to feel cool running with the pack.
2. Because they cannot think for themselves
3. They are new to the area which is not a bad thing to stay with the zerg but it just makes the zerg that much larger
4.Their server has zero coordination within the guilds which leads to themindless zerg just reacting instead of being proactive.
5. There is little to no incentive for Small Unit Tactics
I don't suck in PvP and I run with the zerg. Also I think for myself and run with the zerg. The reason I run with the zerg is that I cannot stand being run over by another server's zerg while playing on my own or in a small group... and then being forced to repair and run, run, run...
Sorry mate, but people who zerg are not morons who can't play. People will tend to do what profits them the most. This is the way of games. Players will not do things that are not profitable for them in a cost/benefit calculation. For me, a bad player is the one who goes off alone like a rambo in a game which clearly favors zerging... or the one who zergs in a game which clearly gives better rewards for solo/small group play.
As for the other points (3-5) I do agree, especially no 5. However "incentive" is comprised of both the potential penalties as well as rewards. Playing small units at the moment is not viable because on average the penalties are harsher than rewards. A small heoric unit will eventualy get roflstomped by a zerg and that is as it should be, however, the rewards the said small unit will obtain while alive will be lower than the cost in repairs and especially downtime (aka running). I might admire such a small unit, but I wouldn't consider them good players because they are working against their own interest. At the moment a "better" player would maximize his gain by joining a zerg.
And that is the whole point - if the game gives the best rewards/penalties ratio for zerging, players will zerg. Those who don't will fall behind and eventually either adopt the dominant behavior or leave in disgust. GW2's WvW needs to change the way penalties and rewards work to make some other type of play more rewarding than zerging. It is as simple as that and has nothing to do with how "good" the players are.
I will stand corrected on point 1 to a degree and add as the number one reason people zerg is because this game rewards the zerg,which to me ruins the WvW and hence the less and less I play anymore.To tell me though there are not some really really bad players in the zerg though is BS. DAOC had some zerging but it also had a ton of small teams out there running around, like stealth gank squads, scout teams etc. That said this is more a casual PvP experience then hardcore which is a shame because at least GW1 provided some of the best PvP I have enjoyed with good rewards to boot.
The better PvP guilds are either migrating to the top servers or just leaving, we used to have 2-3 hour waits for WvW now it is instant, that alone speaks volumes. If they don't do something soon there won't be a whole hell of a lot good WvW left.
That's the sacrifice that has to be made if people want higher stakes from WvW. Create a zone or two and dungeon or two that give unique armour sets and weapon sets and these can only be accessed through winning WvW matches.
This is not a game.
Pretty much Instantly back in the action
No repair costs (although gw2 should drop repairs in pvp imo)
Gear drops from players
Best way to gear up / earn cash
It was the least punishment for dying game yet
Won't happen due to the fact this game caters to casual PvPers more so then the hardcore PvPers who are leaving. Funny thing is I tried Desolation a EU english speaking server and found the WvW to be 10x better, lots of coordination, fewer zergs etc.
Nope. It was zergy because they had their strategic gameplay all screwed up. If you followed the game, the zerg all but disappeared when they made changes to their strategic game - especially when they introduced resource runners and generally tweaked the rewards so that zerging didn't pay off as much.
Harsher death penalties would have made WAR even more zergy. Zerg is safety in numbers, and you value your safety more the higher the penalties for dying are.
Ideally, a game with "communal PvP" should have an exact correspondence between the fate of the group (the server) and the individual (the player). Why should a player be excessively punished for doing something beneficial to the group? As mentioned, a small team may do a lot of good for their GW2 server, but their penalty/reward over time ratio is much worse than for a mindless zerg hopping from keep to keep. The individual death penalties should be decreased - either that or remove universal ressing. At the moment, a zerg is the best place to be.
My "half-life" while solo/small group is 10 minutes... during which I hope I won't meet the enemy (and attendant xp and rewards) because there is a good chance of being overwhelmed and forced to respawn with all the repairs and running, running, running... While zerging I'm assured of being ressed all the time, having rewards trickle pretty continuously and I can even let my brain rest a little. If they decreased the death penalties, I would be more willing to go off on my own and take risks, however at the moment zerg-style keep-hopping play is definitely the best choice for any player who is not into masochism.
The UK servers in warhammer were much better than the usa ones, guilds rolling on the smaller side for the good of the game and what have you.
However a game that revolves around "rewards" is not what they intended to create. I realize that many of you do not like this new design, but maybe it is just time that you just realize that the game perhaps is not for you. Noone is forcing you to play.
You seem to have been psychologically conditioned by previous MMORPGs. I feel sorry for you and hope that you get cured some day. Lots of people used to play Counter-Strike for pure fun, to just have a good time without any deeper "purpose", and that's what GW2 is trying to mirror.
That wouldn't be a problem in GW2. It would be considered as an "exploit" and therefore give them reason to use the banhammer on you.
I have confidence in that GW2's team are gifted and intelligent enough to deal with it appropiately.
Lol, reading comprehension (or any comprehension) much?
Every game has its own rewards, duh. That is the point of games. You play games to get rewarded, if only with "joy in playing". In fact everything you do in life you do to either to get rewarded directly or indirectly (by avoiding punishment). Setting up a system for giving rewards and meting out "punishments" as well as defining what form they take is 90% of what is called "game design" duh.
Please be civil. Your "no one is forcing you to play" reveals your rudeness, incomprehension and all-out douchebaggery.
Not everyone has to get any "trophy" inside the game to feel like they are having fun. Sure there are rewards in form of "dopamine" for instance, but those are not the type of rewards that are being refered to.
The game is not for everyone and instead of wasting their time trying to convince the devs to go against their vision of the game, I suggest that they can simply leave the game. It is a civil and proper advice, in my opinion.
Given the numerous trash games (with SWTOR as one example) we have received over the years, I have far more confidence in Arenanet than any other MMORPG company that has released a MMORPG during the past 7 years.
Despite 2/3rds of the population being unable to access that particular peace of content, they still would have enough to do. I loved DAOC for its relic raids and Dark Falls runs. The latter being a dungeon that opened up to the strongest of three realms, still crawled with peeps from the other two factions who had gained access to it before your server. Only when you died in this dungeon you were kicked out. This led to some extremely fun battles inside Darkness fall to sweep it clean from any remaining foes.
"If I had the stars of the darkest nights or the diamonds from the deepest ocean, I would forsake them all for your sweet kiss"
It really doesn't, Plink; I fail to see how he's being hostile.
In a broad sense, you're right when analyzing his post. Fun is a reward. But his post highlights that the OP is asking for far more than fun. In fact, the OP is asking for developers to restrict players who are losing in WvW from some form of fun or possibly bigger rewards. It's not enough that their server pride is weakened and they get repair bills from constantly dying to a superior server, or their server doesn't benefit from increased node gathering or magic find or whatever else bonuses good servers can get even outside of WvW. No, they have to have something made completely inaccessible for it to be a successful game type? That's pretty damn anti-fun if you ask me.
And you also failed to describe how the poster above you is suffering from any reading comprehension. If the game does not cater to a playstyle you enjoy, because one of ArenaNet's largest philosophies is that fun comes before other artificial rewards like exclusive content or, more powerful items, then why do you continue to play that game?
TL;DR: OP is similar to coming into the game asking for some sort of gear treadmill to be put in place in PvE.
Game design philosophy/elements of DAoC and Fark Fall, then, conflict with the game design philosophy of ArenaNet.
Man, you really are coming off high and mighty. Please, since you're so blessed to have the intimate knowlege of the devs vision of the game (which apparently doesnt include any kind of "rewards" for players /rolleyes and is so stellar and immovable in its perfection that only the most advanced among the mortals should be allowed to play it), will you be so kind to leave us uncouth brutes to our simple joys of discussing an mmo on an internet discussion board named "mmorpg.com"?
Thank you.
Totally agree with everything you said here and in your first post, Plink.
As for the zerg question, I look at it like this: Zergs are exactly how warfare was done IRL for most of human history. It's not really different in this game. The biggest difference in WvWvW is having someone take command and direct the zerg appropriately.
And, I'd love to see less punishment to allow for those more heroic deeds, especially if they allowed player names in WvWvW.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!