This guys is all what is wrong about the game industry, and about EA in particular.
For him, all is a calculation. And that is wrong. A game is first and foremost a dream, a fantasy, a vision. Something that is great and wonder and miracles and action. For him and his lot, it all a plan, a calculation.
And this ABSURD idea that they must be active on every platform. Maybe that pleases stockholders, but for gamers this isn't good news. First, I don't care rat's ass about smartphones, tablets or consoles. I have none of these and I care zilch about the crappy sort of games made for these. At all! and second, this jack-of-all-trades mentality creates crap everywhere. If you stretch yourself so far, just to play in every league at the same time, you just lose focus. Good companies focus on one or two things. Like the OLD Bioware and their RPGs, or like Bethesda and their RPGs. Or like good companies like Westwood, Origin, Bullfrog asf did BEFORE EA bought and destroyed them with their absurd "philosophy". Those small studios were great, because they were not ruled by bean counters and stockholders, but by gamers and visionairies!
That is what made games great for us gamers. This EA philosophy of maximal profit and minimal risk is the bane of all truly good gaming. A good game is not some scheme, some calculated plan, it is a vision, a piece of art, a piece of love and creativity and wonder and dreams and action and fun. And THAT is what EA never ever understood.
Cannot more then agree, to much number crunching from buisnissmens and womens that not intrested in games more then it keeps the money rolling in makes any gaming company go sour. its the same as any artistic career really, u can make something that sells a lot over night, but to make something that lasts and becomes a legend u gotta have a passion for game and as free hands as possible.
EA Chief Operating Officer has claimed the fall of SWTOR was down to people not wanting to pay $15 a month for MMO's, funny, it seems to work for WoW and EvE amongst others. Maybe $15 is too much for this game.
They polled the players exiting the game, and that was the number one answer given. It worked for WoW and EvE, your right. Name a game in the last 5 years that it's worked on?
Wizard 101
Pirates of the Carribean Online
AdventureQuest Worlds
and mixed model games like FreeRealms, Clone Wars Adventures and LOTRO.
Which one are you saying is a subscription based game? non of these have cash shops and f2p options? Oh and my 11 yearold plays wizard 101, and clone wars, and I haven't paid a cent for either(too be honest though, clone wars looks alot more fun than tor lol, if only it wasn't for children)
They all have subscription options, but I do see your point that most of them probably wouldn't have fared well as subscription only.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by grimal Sub based games are so 2004.
That's probably why it still works for those games. When you subscribe to EVE, WOW, DAoC or any of the other games from that era, you are getting 8-15 years of content with that sub.
Is that so? Played EVE for three weeks. Not my cup of tea. WoW entertained me for 3 months. That's less than 6 months combined. Where do you come up with 8-15 years of content?
Whether or not you personally liked it, played it or even realized it was present does not affect whether it exists or not. This really had to be explained to you?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
My basic point was I 100% agree that EA's number one answer on the poll was pricing. Thats not a lie, the survey's did show people didn't want to pay for the game.
I think EA's short commings is analyzing the data. Would you eat poop if it was cheap? If the survey was a. cost money b. not enough peanuts c. wrong color d. consistency just wasn't right people would probably vote for a. When the real problem is no one wants to eat s****.
^This!
People will be willing to pay for what they enjoy. $0.50 a day is TOO MUCH? Less than a can of pop? 1 pack of cigarettes for a week of play?
No, it wasn't the cost by itself. It was asking people to pay for a stinking pile of excrement in any fashion.
My basic point was I 100% agree that EA's number one answer on the poll was pricing. Thats not a lie, the survey's did show people didn't want to pay for the game.
I think EA's short commings is analyzing the data. Would you eat poop if it was cheap? If the survey was a. cost money b. not enough peanuts c. wrong color d. consistency just wasn't right people would probably vote for a. When the real problem is no one wants to eat s****.
HA!
I had the same issue when I quit, as several other people have stated. I picked the ``Cost`` as the reason I left, but not because I can't afford a sub. I chose it because SWTOR wasn't worth the cost of the sub. There is a difference.
I didn`t even manage to make it to 50 on my main before I bailed, and I`m a huge Star Wars fan. Had a large guild of good friends (mostly former guildies from SWG) to play with. The game was just boring. Lifeless. Unimmersive.
I know everyone says ``the stories were good though!``.... No they weren`t. I had a variety of alts, Rep, and Sith, and while I agree the Sith side was better, they still werent that good. No actual choices. No consequences. Lightside v. Darkside meaningless.
This game, to use a sports analogy was ``going through the motions``. No heart, no soul. It just simply is. So people didn`t get attached, didn`t feel a emotional bond, and didn`t continue to subscribe.
3 Different reasons why I left, and while they all tie back to ``worth`` or ``cost`` in the end, they aren`t originally about the $
eh... SWTOR was a quick money grab... Use the whole SW IP name and the Bioware reputation to make some money... Guess what... They succeeded... and now the only thing we can do about it is trying to figure out what went wrong lol....
If you ask me, nothing went wrong, they simply got the big bucks and now they are running away with it...
I don't think it's the overall consensus that it's a single player game. I know a lot of people have expressed this, but there are many whom disagree. Just like the whole GW2 is not an MMORPG thing...some people feel that way, others don't.
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what the overall issue is with the game...so many different theories floating around. But it may just have been a victim of its own hype.
I also disagree. I partied far more in SWToR than most mmo's that I've played. I had no intention of buying it but I'm glad I did, I enjoyed it very much. Up until I ran out of things to do. Or at least things I wanted to do.
For me, it was. Ofc it's only my personal view, and I'm happy for those who liked it as an mmo - some of them still playing as a subscriber. But for me, it was just like any other boxed single player games, with the fine print of "may contain traces of mmo-ish elements" And lots of players felt the same, TOR simply not worths a monthly fee.
It's pretty funny, this Moore guy totally misinterprets the problem. Yep, the problem was the 15$. The ones who left said: "we didn't want to pay it". But not because of, as he said in the article "15 bucks a month is a lot of money" Nope. Simply TOR isn't good enough for a monthly fee.
I wonder, if they sum up the previous year, does this box+monthly fee worth it to them? If they release TOR like many of us suggested/wished (as a single, boxed game), it would've still achieve the 2+ million box sale. And with the loss of those monthly 15$'s of the ones who stayed, they could've avoid all the bad press, the mass exodus of players, the empty servers and the merges, etc. I guess we just saw EA greed in action again
P2P is not the reason why most people left. That is what they put in the survey when you quit.
I Quit because I beat the MMo, and come on you should not be able to say you have completed all there content in the 1st month.
That is why i left nothing left for me to do to keep me spending $15. Im not sure but I bet most people that enjoyed the game but quit anyway is because of the lack of content.
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what the overall issue is with the game...so many different theories floating around. But it may just have been a victim of its own hype.
Well...
It was made by Bioware, which was a highly respected company at some point.
Its budget is higher than any other MMO in existence, not including marketing and advertising costs.
It had over 4 - 5 years of hype, with massive implications made by both fans and by Bioware and EA that it would be "the WoW killer" (Or some variation on that).
Taking all of that into consideration, and the apparent backlash and end result, and it suddenly stops being that suprising that people treat it like a rabid dog.
SWTOR wasn't all that bad imo. It may not be worth a sub fee to me nor would I consider it as an ideal MMO - it was a perfect installment to the KOTOR series and I look forward to any expansions. I got my money's worth and moved on, I just can't understand some of the hate they are getting. It is what it is.
I hope that SWTOR will grow and eventually become a solid MMO. They have a good foundation and if they are able to mature a little bit then I think we'll see a comeback.
Originally posted by Betaguy The only way to maybe save SWTOR is to make it a browser game and jam an app on facebook....
I didn't even want to recite those parts of the interview, because if he really means all those crap he said (and not just dropping in buzzwords) then, with the size of EA in the market, I think it'll be a sad future for gaming.
As a friend of mine said once, in a world where dumb masses playing farmville and angry bird, I don't wanna be called a gamer anymore
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what the overall issue is with the game...so many different theories floating around. But it may just have been a victim of its own hype.
Well...
It was made by Bioware, which was a highly respected company at some point.
Its budget is higher than any other MMO in existence, not including marketing and advertising costs.
It had over 4 - 5 years of hype, with massive implications made by both fans and by Bioware and EA that it would be "the WoW killer" (Or some variation on that).
Taking all of that into consideration, and the apparent backlash and end result, and it suddenly stops being that suprising that people treat it like a rabid dog.
SWTOR wasn't all that bad imo. It may not be worth a sub fee to me nor would I consider it as an ideal MMO - it was a perfect installment to the KOTOR series and I look forward to any expansions. I got my money's worth and moved on, I just can't understand some of the hate they are getting. It is what it is.
I hope that SWTOR will grow and eventually become a solid MMO. They have a good foundation and if they are able to mature a little bit then I think we'll see a comeback.
I would argue the foundation is one of the main problems. The untested undocumented and pretty much un supported fork of the hero engine that tor uses is well recorded.
EA being an egricious joke of a company does not help. I was surprised to find them featured on BBCs watchdog program last night. A consumer affairs TV program that focuses on malpractices and cons. That was for the latest FIFA. Oh and just to remind a couple of posters earlier in the bread Bioware has not existed in anything but name for years now, it's EA through and through.
EA Chief Operating Officer has claimed the fall of SWTOR was down to people not wanting to pay $15 a month for MMO's, funny, it seems to work for WoW and EvE amongst others. Maybe $15 is too much for this game.
well i quit during the first few days of beta testing as i knew it was a shit game... it was not the sub fee that killed it..
If EA really think that then they are in serious trouble..
EA Chief Operating Officer has claimed the fall of SWTOR was down to people not wanting to pay $15 a month for MMO's, funny, it seems to work for WoW and EvE amongst others. Maybe $15 is too much for this game.
They polled the players exiting the game, and that was the number one answer given. It worked for WoW and EvE, your right. Name a game in the last 5 years that it's worked on?
Don't get me wrong, I prefer subscriptions, but with the content burning min max crowd destroying content now, no game can charge a monthly sub for a game that players will beat in a week.
The EvE model might work(sandbox, is sandbox and the players generate the content) now, for a niche, a 300-600k sub base, but of course anything less than 10 million subs is a failure(sarcasm)
Themepark subscriptions? Not seeing it happen anytime soon. Everyone I know that plays GW2 is done(Only three people I personally know played it, but they are done with everything, and they are more on the casual side)
I don't think any sub based themepark is going to make it past that 6 months mortality rate of mmo's in todays market.
Of course, I'm a bit upset with the exit survey. I did select the choice about the game not being worth paying for, but I was being cynical about how much I disliked the games design philosophies, static worlds, and anti community build and not the fact that subs where hard to pay(that wasn't an option on the poll). I just wanted Bioware to know their game was not worth money. I guess they can take it as needing a pricing model change, but I would have preferred if they took my exit poll as a "need to change the game" more.
Imo SWTOR would have been much more succesful with GW2's B2P model, especially vis-a-vis the item shop etc. Imo SW fans would be much more inclined to spend money on flashy cosmetics to boost their RP than GW folks. (I don't mean anything derogatory by that, it's just that SW IP is much much stronger than GWs)
That being said, EA is really a total fail of a company... First they go for the greedy P2P model, which really wasn't merited considering the game's strong story emphasis (and stories have endings, by definition) and now they panic and go all greedy and stupid again with F2P which is, in all probabilty, going to be another sleazy cash grab. (since they won't charge the box price they'll have to ramp up cash shop prices and restrict content to stay profitable... another fail)
They could have simpy marketed the game as a new KOTOR, B2P and all, with mmorpg elements and a wonderful cash shop if you want to "enhance your star wars rp experience," and it would have been a total success... the reduction of piracy alone would have largely offset the loss of subs, lol. Not to mention that the players are much more patient with any glitches and inital flaws if they know that they're not paying a sub while the problems are being fixed. Just look at GW2, it had and still has some baby problems but the player reception is very benign... When you're not paying a monthly sub it is very easy to put the game aside for a month or so until the problems that bother you are fixed; you know you're not paying 15$ a month for not playing the game.
All that being said, imo games that merit subscription cannot be story-based, they have to be worlds. Story-based games (aka themeparks) are time-limited because stories always end. Worlds do not end - EVE online is a world that you pay 15$ a month to have access to, it's a club, a gym subscripton if you will. Why the hell should anyone keep paying subscription to have access to a story that has ended? It's like paying a monthly sub for a book you have on your bookshelf.
I dont know how many times ive said this, People will pay 15$ a month if the game is GOOD enough to warrant that. If a game came along that was "revolutionary" then people would cobble it up regardless of payment model.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
EA Chief Operating Officer has claimed the fall of SWTOR was down to people not wanting to pay $15 a month for MMO's, funny, it seems to work for WoW and EvE amongst others. Maybe $15 is too much for this game.
Time of subscription is over. 15$ was aceptable for some time , but now with so many "pay what and when you want" alternatives - its simply out of touch.
WOW will drop subscription soon enough they see decline in subscribers
And EVE is PVP sandbox - they can not go for F2P model - else they ruin the balance.
I was saying the subscription will kill this game all along. Big mistake for EA not going F2P from the start.
EA Chief Operating Officer has claimed the fall of SWTOR was down to people not wanting to pay $15 a month for MMO's, funny, it seems to work for WoW and EvE amongst others. Maybe $15 is too much for this game.
Of course it's too much for the majority of players out there. You can level to cap on both sides and then you've pretty much seen as much of the game as you'll be able to stomach while having to fork over $15 a month. It's totally story driven and whn you've done the done you're pretty much done with the game. There are exceptions, but they are relatively few.
Time of subscription is over. 15$ was aceptable for some time , but now with so many "pay what and when you want" alternatives - its simply out of touch.
WOW will drop subscription soon enough they see decline in subscribers
And EVE is PVP sandbox - they can not go for F2P model - else they ruin the balance.
People will pay for a good game, no matter if it is F2P, B2P or P2P.
People might still play a not so great F2P game but they wont spend any money on it.
As for Wow it is not losing players because it is P2P, it is because the game is old.
It is indeed a second chanse to move a game into F2P but if they dont improve TOR it still wont earn more money than it did as P2P.
Do people here actually claim that the reason they stopped playing TOR was because it was too expensive?
Everyone I know claims it was because it wasnt good enough once you played it for a few weeks.
So you're calling WoW, the most successful MMO to date, a failure? Blizzard made a fortune with that game, some failure...
They may go F2P when Titan is released, but they're still collecting more subs than any other MMO. EVE's sandbox doesn't even come close to WoW numbers. Your "Themepark + subscription = fail" doesn't add up.
So you're calling WoW, the most successful MMO to date, a failure? Blizzard made a fortune with that game, some failure...
They may go F2P when Titan is released, but they're still collecting more subs than any other MMO. EVE's sandbox doesn't even come close to WoW numbers. Your "Themepark + subscription = fail" doesn't add up.
it does add up, he just forgot to add the word Mediocre in front of Themepark
EA Chief Operating Officer has claimed the fall of SWTOR was down to people not wanting to pay $15 a month for MMO's, funny, it seems to work for WoW and EvE amongst others. Maybe $15 is too much for this game.
Time of subscription is over. 15$ was aceptable for some time , but now with so many "pay what and when you want" alternatives - its simply out of touch.
WOW will drop subscription soon enough they see decline in subscribers
And EVE is PVP sandbox - they can not go for F2P model - else they ruin the balance.
I was saying the subscription will kill this game all along. Big mistake for EA not going F2P from the start.
Themepark + subscription = fail
No it isnt. The time of Generic Mmos offer subs needs to end. Say if TSW, Rift, SWTOR, were truly amazing, revolutionary, the next best thing. People would NOT hesitate to pay a sub at all. To say the sub is dead is ridiculous.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
Comments
Cannot more then agree, to much number crunching from buisnissmens and womens that not intrested in games more then it keeps the money rolling in makes any gaming company go sour. its the same as any artistic career really, u can make something that sells a lot over night, but to make something that lasts and becomes a legend u gotta have a passion for game and as free hands as possible.
They all have subscription options, but I do see your point that most of them probably wouldn't have fared well as subscription only.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Whether or not you personally liked it, played it or even realized it was present does not affect whether it exists or not. This really had to be explained to you?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
^This!
People will be willing to pay for what they enjoy. $0.50 a day is TOO MUCH? Less than a can of pop? 1 pack of cigarettes for a week of play?
No, it wasn't the cost by itself. It was asking people to pay for a stinking pile of excrement in any fashion.
HA!
I had the same issue when I quit, as several other people have stated. I picked the ``Cost`` as the reason I left, but not because I can't afford a sub. I chose it because SWTOR wasn't worth the cost of the sub. There is a difference.
I didn`t even manage to make it to 50 on my main before I bailed, and I`m a huge Star Wars fan. Had a large guild of good friends (mostly former guildies from SWG) to play with. The game was just boring. Lifeless. Unimmersive.
I know everyone says ``the stories were good though!``.... No they weren`t. I had a variety of alts, Rep, and Sith, and while I agree the Sith side was better, they still werent that good. No actual choices. No consequences. Lightside v. Darkside meaningless.
This game, to use a sports analogy was ``going through the motions``. No heart, no soul. It just simply is. So people didn`t get attached, didn`t feel a emotional bond, and didn`t continue to subscribe.
3 Different reasons why I left, and while they all tie back to ``worth`` or ``cost`` in the end, they aren`t originally about the $
eh... SWTOR was a quick money grab... Use the whole SW IP name and the Bioware reputation to make some money... Guess what... They succeeded... and now the only thing we can do about it is trying to figure out what went wrong lol....
If you ask me, nothing went wrong, they simply got the big bucks and now they are running away with it...
For me, it was. Ofc it's only my personal view, and I'm happy for those who liked it as an mmo - some of them still playing as a subscriber. But for me, it was just like any other boxed single player games, with the fine print of "may contain traces of mmo-ish elements"
And lots of players felt the same, TOR simply not worths a monthly fee.
It's pretty funny, this Moore guy totally misinterprets the problem. Yep, the problem was the 15$. The ones who left said: "we didn't want to pay it". But not because of, as he said in the article "15 bucks a month is a lot of money" Nope. Simply TOR isn't good enough for a monthly fee.
I wonder, if they sum up the previous year, does this box+monthly fee worth it to them? If they release TOR like many of us suggested/wished (as a single, boxed game), it would've still achieve the 2+ million box sale. And with the loss of those monthly 15$'s of the ones who stayed, they could've avoid all the bad press, the mass exodus of players, the empty servers and the merges, etc. I guess we just saw EA greed in action again
P2P is not the reason why most people left. That is what they put in the survey when you quit.
I Quit because I beat the MMo, and come on you should not be able to say you have completed all there content in the 1st month.
That is why i left nothing left for me to do to keep me spending $15. Im not sure but I bet most people that enjoyed the game but quit anyway is because of the lack of content.
*cries looking at your speed and comparing it to mine*
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
SWTOR wasn't all that bad imo. It may not be worth a sub fee to me nor would I consider it as an ideal MMO - it was a perfect installment to the KOTOR series and I look forward to any expansions. I got my money's worth and moved on, I just can't understand some of the hate they are getting. It is what it is.
I hope that SWTOR will grow and eventually become a solid MMO. They have a good foundation and if they are able to mature a little bit then I think we'll see a comeback.
I didn't even want to recite those parts of the interview, because if he really means all those crap he said (and not just dropping in buzzwords) then, with the size of EA in the market, I think it'll be a sad future for gaming.
As a friend of mine said once, in a world where dumb masses playing farmville and angry bird, I don't wanna be called a gamer anymore
I would argue the foundation is one of the main problems. The untested undocumented and pretty much un supported fork of the hero engine that tor uses is well recorded.
EA being an egricious joke of a company does not help. I was surprised to find them featured on BBCs watchdog program last night. A consumer affairs TV program that focuses on malpractices and cons. That was for the latest FIFA. Oh and just to remind a couple of posters earlier in the bread Bioware has not existed in anything but name for years now, it's EA through and through.
well i quit during the first few days of beta testing as i knew it was a shit game... it was not the sub fee that killed it..
If EA really think that then they are in serious trouble..
(Clicks the 'Like' button.)
Imo SWTOR would have been much more succesful with GW2's B2P model, especially vis-a-vis the item shop etc. Imo SW fans would be much more inclined to spend money on flashy cosmetics to boost their RP than GW folks. (I don't mean anything derogatory by that, it's just that SW IP is much much stronger than GWs)
That being said, EA is really a total fail of a company... First they go for the greedy P2P model, which really wasn't merited considering the game's strong story emphasis (and stories have endings, by definition) and now they panic and go all greedy and stupid again with F2P which is, in all probabilty, going to be another sleazy cash grab. (since they won't charge the box price they'll have to ramp up cash shop prices and restrict content to stay profitable... another fail)
They could have simpy marketed the game as a new KOTOR, B2P and all, with mmorpg elements and a wonderful cash shop if you want to "enhance your star wars rp experience," and it would have been a total success... the reduction of piracy alone would have largely offset the loss of subs, lol. Not to mention that the players are much more patient with any glitches and inital flaws if they know that they're not paying a sub while the problems are being fixed. Just look at GW2, it had and still has some baby problems but the player reception is very benign... When you're not paying a monthly sub it is very easy to put the game aside for a month or so until the problems that bother you are fixed; you know you're not paying 15$ a month for not playing the game.
All that being said, imo games that merit subscription cannot be story-based, they have to be worlds. Story-based games (aka themeparks) are time-limited because stories always end. Worlds do not end - EVE online is a world that you pay 15$ a month to have access to, it's a club, a gym subscripton if you will. Why the hell should anyone keep paying subscription to have access to a story that has ended? It's like paying a monthly sub for a book you have on your bookshelf.
Blaming everything but not the game huh? Think noone is surprised much by this huh?
Problem was Swtor fundamental design choices that cannot really be fixed atm, so that's why they will blame everything else.
Trying to save as much from those three digit millions investment they made in Swtor.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships
Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
Time of subscription is over. 15$ was aceptable for some time , but now with so many "pay what and when you want" alternatives - its simply out of touch.
WOW will drop subscription soon enough they see decline in subscribers
And EVE is PVP sandbox - they can not go for F2P model - else they ruin the balance.
I was saying the subscription will kill this game all along. Big mistake for EA not going F2P from the start.
Themepark + subscription = fail
Of course it's too much for the majority of players out there. You can level to cap on both sides and then you've pretty much seen as much of the game as you'll be able to stomach while having to fork over $15 a month. It's totally story driven and whn you've done the done you're pretty much done with the game. There are exceptions, but they are relatively few.
People will pay for a good game, no matter if it is F2P, B2P or P2P.
People might still play a not so great F2P game but they wont spend any money on it.
As for Wow it is not losing players because it is P2P, it is because the game is old.
It is indeed a second chanse to move a game into F2P but if they dont improve TOR it still wont earn more money than it did as P2P.
Do people here actually claim that the reason they stopped playing TOR was because it was too expensive?
Everyone I know claims it was because it wasnt good enough once you played it for a few weeks.
So you're calling WoW, the most successful MMO to date, a failure? Blizzard made a fortune with that game, some failure...
They may go F2P when Titan is released, but they're still collecting more subs than any other MMO. EVE's sandbox doesn't even come close to WoW numbers. Your "Themepark + subscription = fail" doesn't add up.
it does add up, he just forgot to add the word Mediocre in front of Themepark
No it isnt. The time of Generic Mmos offer subs needs to end. Say if TSW, Rift, SWTOR, were truly amazing, revolutionary, the next best thing. People would NOT hesitate to pay a sub at all. To say the sub is dead is ridiculous.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships
Waiting on: Ashes of Creation