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It's not them; it's you.

WardopWardop Member UncommonPosts: 28

I lurk here. I've had this account since 2004, and I think I have less than 10 posts. But I'm here weekly, if not daily sometimes. I read, I take in what is said and argued about, and I laugh.

You make demands. Impossible demands. Demands that, if only partially met, are deemed inadequate and therefore the game is a completely failed venture.

  1. It has to be new and different, but bitch if it doesn't have every single thing every single game has had before it.
  2. It has to have raids. These raids have to be hard, but not so hard you can't solo them. 
  3. It has to be hardcore, but casual friendly.
  4. Leveling shouldn't be a grind, but 'endgame' should be a non-stop treadmill; a never ending grind.
  5. There should be no levels, or skills, or  gear stats that mean anything; but progression must still be measurable.
  6. It should be a sandbox, but tell you what to do.
  7. It should be a themepark, but let you do whatever you want.
  8. The world should be huge and open, but you want instant transportation so you never have to see it.
  9. It should fill your empty hours, but not require any time investment.
  10. It must contain everything on your wishlist, even the things you didn't know you wanted. It must be exactly as you feel it should be. And, it must be free.


Not all of you say these things. Not all who say some, say them all. But the thing is, there have been a lot of decent games come out over the past few years, games we would have killed for a decade ago. Games that have failed because they don't cater directly to you; weren't designed specifically for you.


I'm just a guilty as the rest of you. I don't play anything right now. My favorite games have changed to fit the masses, or simply died out. The new games don't feel like I want them to, play how I want them to, or simply don't capture my imagination like the old games did. The difference is that I know the problem isn't the games, it's me. What I really want is that intangible thing that made me go, "oh my" a decade ago. That thing that made me rush home from work and start the log on process before I went to pee. That thing that made me not realize I'd not moved in 4 hours and my wife is probably pissed.


That thing can't be designed. No programmer can write that code. No story, no scipt, no quest line can be written. Because what I want is a feeling, not a mechanic. A sence of home is desired, not a housing zone. A group of friends, not a clever guild tag. We want all this new stuff, this impossible list of impossibilities, because we want that "wow" we first felt when we logged onto our first MMO. And are pissed we can't recapture it.

 

Edited formatting and spelling

Comments

  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904

    I laughed :)
    Should probably cry too..

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz Member UncommonPosts: 865
    Originally posted by Wardop
    I lurk here. I've had this account since 2004, and I think I have less than 10 posts. But I'm here weekly, if not daily sometimes. I read, I take in what is said and argued about, and I laugh.

    You make demands. Impossible demands. Demands that, if only partially met, are deemed inadequate and therefore the game is a completely failed venture.
    1.     It has to be new and different, but bitch if it doesn't have every single thing every single game has had before it.
    2.     It has to have raids. These raids have to be hard, but not so hard you can't solo them.
    3.     It has to be hardcore, but casual friendly.
    4.     Leveling shouldn't be a grind, but 'endgame' should be a non-stop treadmill; a never ending grind.
    5.     There should be no levels, or skills, or  gear stats that mean anything; but progression must still be measurable.
    6.     It should be a sandbox, but tell you what to do.
    7.     It should be a themepark, but let you do whatever you want.
    8.     The world should be huge and open, but you want instant transportation so you never have to see it.
    9.     It should fill your empty hours, but not require any time investment.
    10.     It must contain everything on your wishlist, even the things you didn't know you wanted. It must be exactly as you feel it should be. And, it must be free.


     

    It's as if gamers haven't realized by now; Free isn't Free.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628


    Originally posted by Wardop
    I lurk here. I've had this account since 2004, and I think I have less than 10 posts. But I'm here weekly, if not daily sometimes. I read, I take in what is said and argued about, and I laugh.You make demands. Impossible demands. Demands that, if only partially met, are deemed inadequate and therefore the game is a completely failed venture. [*] It has to be new and different, but bitch if it doesn't have every single thing every single game has had before it. [*] It has to have raids. These raids have to be hard, but not so hard you can't solo them. It has to be hardcore, but casual friendly. [*] Leveling shouldn't be a grind, but 'endgame' should be a non-stop treadmill; a never ending grind. [*] There should be no levels, or skills, or  gear stats that mean anything; but progression must still be measurable. [*] It should be a sandbox, but tell you what to do.
    It should be a themepark, but let you do whatever you want.
    The world should be huge and open, but you want instant transportation so you never have to see it.
    It should fill your empty hours, but not require any time investment.
    It must contain everything on your wishlist, even the things you didn't know you wanted. It must be exactly as you feel it should be. And, it must be free.
    Not all of you say these things. Not all who say some, say them all. But the thing is, there have been a lot of decent games come out over the past few years, games we would have killed for a decade ago. Games that have failed because they don't cater directly to you; weren't designed specifically for you.I'm just a guilty as the rest of you. I don't play anything right now. My favorite games have changed to fit the masses, or simply died out. The new games don't feel like I want them to, play how I want them to, or simply don't capture my imagination like the old games did. The difference is that I know the problem isn't the games, it's me. What I really want is that intangible thing that made me go, "oh my" a decade ago. That thing that made me rush home from work and start the log on process before I went to pee. That thing that made me not realize I'd not moved in 4 hours and my wife is probably pissed.That thing can't be designed. No programmer can write that code. No story, no scipt, no quest line can be written. Because what I want is a feeling, not a mechanic. A sence of home is desired, not a housing zone. A group of friends, not a clever guild tag. We want all this new stuff, this impossible list of impossibilities, because we want that "wow" we first felt when we logged onto our first MMO. And are pissed we can't recapture it. Edited formatting and spelling

    Sorry you feel that way. I don't. I play a ton of games and I enjoy the stuff I like and toss the stuff I don't. Been doing that for...oooh... 33+ years now. Hope you can get back to gaming soon.

  • StonesDKStonesDK Member UncommonPosts: 1,805
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Wardop
    I lurk here. I've had this account since 2004, and I think I have less than 10 posts. But I'm here weekly, if not daily sometimes. I read, I take in what is said and argued about, and I laugh.You make demands. Impossible demands. Demands that, if only partially met, are deemed inadequate and therefore the game is a completely failed venture. [*] It has to be new and different, but bitch if it doesn't have every single thing every single game has had before it. [*] It has to have raids. These raids have to be hard, but not so hard you can't solo them. It has to be hardcore, but casual friendly. [*] Leveling shouldn't be a grind, but 'endgame' should be a non-stop treadmill; a never ending grind. [*] There should be no levels, or skills, or  gear stats that mean anything; but progression must still be measurable. [*] It should be a sandbox, but tell you what to do.
    It should be a themepark, but let you do whatever you want.
    The world should be huge and open, but you want instant transportation so you never have to see it.
    It should fill your empty hours, but not require any time investment.
    It must contain everything on your wishlist, even the things you didn't know you wanted. It must be exactly as you feel it should be. And, it must be free.
    Not all of you say these things. Not all who say some, say them all. But the thing is, there have been a lot of decent games come out over the past few years, games we would have killed for a decade ago. Games that have failed because they don't cater directly to you; weren't designed specifically for you.

     

    I'm just a guilty as the rest of you. I don't play anything right now. My favorite games have changed to fit the masses, or simply died out. The new games don't feel like I want them to, play how I want them to, or simply don't capture my imagination like the old games did. The difference is that I know the problem isn't the games, it's me. What I really want is that intangible thing that made me go, "oh my" a decade ago. That thing that made me rush home from work and start the log on process before I went to pee. That thing that made me not realize I'd not moved in 4 hours and my wife is probably pissed.

    That thing can't be designed. No programmer can write that code. No story, no scipt, no quest line can be written. Because what I want is a feeling, not a mechanic. A sence of home is desired, not a housing zone. A group of friends, not a clever guild tag. We want all this new stuff, this impossible list of impossibilities, because we want that "wow" we first felt when we logged onto our first MMO. And are pissed we can't recapture it.

     

    Edited formatting and spelling


     

    Sorry you feel that way. I don't. I play a ton of games and I enjoy the stuff I like and toss the stuff I don't. Been doing that for...oooh... 33+ years now. Hope you can get back to gaming soon.

    There's always somebody who has to raise their hand and tell everybody how different they are no matter the post. You can always predict it happen

     

    "I'm not that way... ergo everything you just said is invalid"

  • WardopWardop Member UncommonPosts: 28
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Wardop
    I lurk here. I've had this account since 2004, and I think I have less than 10 posts. But I'm here weekly, if not daily sometimes. I read, I take in what is said and argued about, and I laugh.You make demands. Impossible demands. Demands that, if only partially met, are deemed inadequate and therefore the game is a completely failed venture. [*] It has to be new and different, but bitch if it doesn't have every single thing every single game has had before it. [*] It has to have raids. These raids have to be hard, but not so hard you can't solo them. It has to be hardcore, but casual friendly. [*] Leveling shouldn't be a grind, but 'endgame' should be a non-stop treadmill; a never ending grind. [*] There should be no levels, or skills, or  gear stats that mean anything; but progression must still be measurable. [*] It should be a sandbox, but tell you what to do.
    It should be a themepark, but let you do whatever you want.
    The world should be huge and open, but you want instant transportation so you never have to see it.
    It should fill your empty hours, but not require any time investment.
    It must contain everything on your wishlist, even the things you didn't know you wanted. It must be exactly as you feel it should be. And, it must be free.
    Not all of you say these things. Not all who say some, say them all. But the thing is, there have been a lot of decent games come out over the past few years, games we would have killed for a decade ago. Games that have failed because they don't cater directly to you; weren't designed specifically for you.

     

    I'm just a guilty as the rest of you. I don't play anything right now. My favorite games have changed to fit the masses, or simply died out. The new games don't feel like I want them to, play how I want them to, or simply don't capture my imagination like the old games did. The difference is that I know the problem isn't the games, it's me. What I really want is that intangible thing that made me go, "oh my" a decade ago. That thing that made me rush home from work and start the log on process before I went to pee. That thing that made me not realize I'd not moved in 4 hours and my wife is probably pissed.

    That thing can't be designed. No programmer can write that code. No story, no scipt, no quest line can be written. Because what I want is a feeling, not a mechanic. A sence of home is desired, not a housing zone. A group of friends, not a clever guild tag. We want all this new stuff, this impossible list of impossibilities, because we want that "wow" we first felt when we logged onto our first MMO. And are pissed we can't recapture it.

     

    Edited formatting and spelling


     

    Sorry you feel that way. I don't. I play a ton of games and I enjoy the stuff I like and toss the stuff I don't. Been doing that for...oooh... 33+ years now. Hope you can get back to gaming soon.

    Thanks. I think I've just out grown the gaming. I liked what I had, hated that it changed, and and too stubborn to adapt I guess. ;)

  • WardopWardop Member UncommonPosts: 28
    Originally posted by Starpower
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Wardop
    I lurk here. I've had this account since 2004, and I think I have less than 10 posts. But I'm here weekly, if not daily sometimes. I read, I take in what is said and argued about, and I laugh.You make demands. Impossible demands. Demands that, if only partially met, are deemed inadequate and therefore the game is a completely failed venture. [*] It has to be new and different, but bitch if it doesn't have every single thing every single game has had before it. [*] It has to have raids. These raids have to be hard, but not so hard you can't solo them. It has to be hardcore, but casual friendly. [*] Leveling shouldn't be a grind, but 'endgame' should be a non-stop treadmill; a never ending grind. [*] There should be no levels, or skills, or  gear stats that mean anything; but progression must still be measurable. [*] It should be a sandbox, but tell you what to do.
    It should be a themepark, but let you do whatever you want.
    The world should be huge and open, but you want instant transportation so you never have to see it.
    It should fill your empty hours, but not require any time investment.
    It must contain everything on your wishlist, even the things you didn't know you wanted. It must be exactly as you feel it should be. And, it must be free.
    Not all of you say these things. Not all who say some, say them all. But the thing is, there have been a lot of decent games come out over the past few years, games we would have killed for a decade ago. Games that have failed because they don't cater directly to you; weren't designed specifically for you.

     

    I'm just a guilty as the rest of you. I don't play anything right now. My favorite games have changed to fit the masses, or simply died out. The new games don't feel like I want them to, play how I want them to, or simply don't capture my imagination like the old games did. The difference is that I know the problem isn't the games, it's me. What I really want is that intangible thing that made me go, "oh my" a decade ago. That thing that made me rush home from work and start the log on process before I went to pee. That thing that made me not realize I'd not moved in 4 hours and my wife is probably pissed.

    That thing can't be designed. No programmer can write that code. No story, no scipt, no quest line can be written. Because what I want is a feeling, not a mechanic. A sence of home is desired, not a housing zone. A group of friends, not a clever guild tag. We want all this new stuff, this impossible list of impossibilities, because we want that "wow" we first felt when we logged onto our first MMO. And are pissed we can't recapture it.

     

    Edited formatting and spelling


     

    Sorry you feel that way. I don't. I play a ton of games and I enjoy the stuff I like and toss the stuff I don't. Been doing that for...oooh... 33+ years now. Hope you can get back to gaming soon.

    There's always somebody who has to raise their hand and tell everybody how different they are no matter the post. You can always predict it happen

     

    "I'm not that way... ergo everything you just said is invalid"

    I didn't take it that he was saying I'm wrong, just that he feels differently.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628


    Originally posted by Wardop
    Thanks. I think I've just out grown the gaming. I liked what I had, hated that it changed, and and too stubborn to adapt I guess. ;)

    Do you have a ps3? If so, play Journey. Its on psn for 15 bucks. You can finish it in a few hours. It is game of the year imho.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628


    Originally posted by Starpower
    There's always somebody who has to raise their hand and tell everybody how different they are no matter the post. You can always predict it happen 
    "I'm not that way... ergo everything you just said is invalid"

    hm. no, not really. He shared his perspective on this subject, I shared mine. I hope the OP took that as a conversation :)

  • WardopWardop Member UncommonPosts: 28
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Wardop
    Thanks. I think I've just out grown the gaming. I liked what I had, hated that it changed, and and too stubborn to adapt I guess. ;)

     

    Do you have a ps3? If so, play Journey. Its on psn for 15 bucks. You can finish it in a few hours. It is game of the year imho.

    I was never much for the consoles. Although I did love my Atari 2600 with a passion that would shame most porn-stars.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628


    Originally posted by Wardop
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Wardop Thanks. I think I've just out grown the gaming. I liked what I had, hated that it changed, and and too stubborn to adapt I guess. ;)
      Do you have a ps3? If so, play Journey. Its on psn for 15 bucks. You can finish it in a few hours. It is game of the year imho.
    I was never much for the consoles. Although I did love my Atari 2600 with a passion that would shame most porn-stars.

    Ah thats too bad. When I start to get sick of the mainstream shovelware hype, I head over to some indie game sites and see whats happening. I also like to browse psn and live arcade for indie gems. Mainstream mmos (aka AAA themeparks), I find the stuff I like about them and play just that stuff. I set goals that can be reached via my preferred playstyle and enjoy it for however long the devs let me haha.
  • WardopWardop Member UncommonPosts: 28
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Wardop

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Wardop Thanks. I think I've just out grown the gaming. I liked what I had, hated that it changed, and and too stubborn to adapt I guess. ;)
      Do you have a ps3? If so, play Journey. Its on psn for 15 bucks. You can finish it in a few hours. It is game of the year imho.
    I was never much for the consoles. Although I did love my Atari 2600 with a passion that would shame most porn-stars.
    Ah thats too bad. When I start to get sick of the mainstream shovelware hype, I head over to some indie game sites and see whats happening. I also like to browse psn and live arcade for indie gems. Mainstream mmos (aka AAA themeparks), I find the stuff I like about them and play just that stuff. I set goals that can be reached via my preferred playstyle and enjoy it for however long the devs let me haha.

     

    I go back and play some AAA games for a bit. I admit to being far too adicted to EvE to give up on it for too long. But it's one of those games where you can still find a really good group of people to play with and have that kind of fun I miss at times. My thing was always the social/political aspects, so console games don't do it for me. I like the intrigue and drama involved in politics.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,466

    Nobody has gone on yet about how the OP is jaded? That makes a refreashing change. :)

    A hybrid between the old and new can be done. Old school types dont all want permadeath and corpse runs, there are not many who want to go back that far. But mounts rather than instant travel, double xp to level, alternative progression systems like crafting and diplomacy. It can be done, but for years now the drive has been to ever more easymode play.

     

  • WardopWardop Member UncommonPosts: 28
    Originally posted by Scot

    Nobody has gone on yet about how the OP is jaded? That makes a refreashing change. :)

    A hybrid between the old and new can be done. Old school types dont all want permadeath and corpse runs, there are not many who want to go back that far. But mounts rather than instant travel, double xp to level, alternative progression systems like crafting and diplomacy. It can be done, but for years now the drive has been to ever more easymode play.

     

    Haha. No. I don't want permadeath. Even I think that's a bit harsh. And I do admit to being a bit on the jaded side of the scale. ;)

     

    I agree with what you describe. I'd not mind a return to something less "instant gratification", but it doesn't have to be quite as harsh as the very early stuff.

  • timtracktimtrack Member UncommonPosts: 541

    I guess it has alot to do with the "mainstreamification" of MMO's. We now expect everything in every MMO to be for everyone, and especially ourselves. A long time ago i would see something in an MMO and think "that's fucking impossible". And if i saw someone who achieved this i'd say "awesome, well done dude". And i'd make a decision about wether i should persue this goal or not. Never ever did i think "i'm entitled/justified to achieve this", like a game build for millions of people was only built for me.

     

    I do miss the days when "epics were epics". Even seeing someone else having something awesome, was in fact awesome. I'd be humble, a little jealous, but never feel entitled or justified to achieve the same thing. Whatever it was, maybe it simply wasn't for me. You could then strutt along with your own realistic goals and be happy with that. E-peen was a nice-to-have, not a "I'M ENTITLED TO HAVE E-PEEN!!111".

     

    Instant gratification is the bane of this genre. We crave more of it because we think it's what we want. When we get it it's not enough because it never can be.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,219

    Naw, it's not me, it's definitely "them".

    I will confess, I am looking for something that my first 4 MMORPG's had in them, a castle sieging, PVP, territory control style end game with almost limitless character progression in terms of power.  (see Lineage 1, 2, DAOC and Shadowbane)

    Attempts at repeating these experiences have fallen short in modern times, with Aion probably being the closest but it missed the mark on several levels, but that would be a topic for a separate thread.

    I am really tired of "them" remaking the same MMORPG that we've been seeing since EQ1, there are alternative paths to MMORPG development, probably why I'm back to playing EVE which still my longest running title, perhaps not because its so good, but there's just such a dearth of alternatives out there.

    I'll be trying DFUW when it releases, even though I am not a fan of full loot PVP games.  Anything for a change at this point, and who knows, I might end up enjoying it.

     

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • WardopWardop Member UncommonPosts: 28
    Originally posted by timtrack

    I guess it has alot to do with the "mainstreamification" of MMO's. We now expect everything in every MMO to be for everyone, and especially ourselves. A long time ago i would see something in an MMO and think "that's fucking impossible". And if i saw someone who achieved this i'd say "awesome, well done dude". And i'd make a decision about wether i should persue this goal or not. Never ever did i think "i'm entitled/justified to achieve this", like a game build for millions of people was only built for me.

     

    I do miss the days when "epics were epics". Even seeing someone else having something awesome, was in fact awesome. I'd be humble, a little jealous, but never feel entitled or justified to achieve the same thing. Whatever it was, maybe it simply wasn't for me. You could then strutt along with your own realistic goals and be happy with that. E-peen was a nice-to-have, not a "I'M ENTITLED TO HAVE E-PEEN!!111".

     

    Instant gratification is the bane of this genre. We crave more of it because we think it's what we want. When we get it it's not enough because it never can be.

    I do miss the days when "epics were epics". Even seeing someone else having something awesome, was in fact awesome. I'd be humble, a little jealous

    Yes. This. Someone had something really cool. I didn't. That was ok. In DAoC, for me, it was swords with effects early on. They were fairly rare, and you'd be beating down a door and someone would pull out their "glowy" (cause that's really about all they were good for) and everyone would go "oooo". But you knew to get one you had to go and kill the things that dropped them.  And you probably needed some friends to come along because it was a pain in the ass to get to. But I never felt I deserved a glowie, yeah I wanted one, but hadn't done what I needed to to get one.

     

    Then when you hit 50, you could do the quest for your epic class armor. You couldn't do it alone. Not every 50 had it, sometimes it took months to get enough people together at the right time to go do it. And when you got it, it was a big freakin deal.

  • WardopWardop Member UncommonPosts: 28
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    #9 concerns me...because it's very true from what I'm reading.

     

    I'm going to have to say for me, EVE actually pulled it off. I can rat or mine for hours, but I don't need to. My budget is fine, and I do it for the joys of making profit only.

    EvE has a fairly decent balance between time investment and in game money gain. The nice thing is, the smarter you are, the more you can earn in the same period of time.

  • WardopWardop Member UncommonPosts: 28
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Naw, it's not me, it's definitely "them".

    I will confess, I am looking for something that my first 4 MMORPG's had in them, a castle sieging, PVP, territory control style end game with almost limitless character progression in terms of power.  (see Lineage 1, 2, DAOC and Shadowbane)

    Attempts at repeating these experiences have fallen short in modern times, with Aion probably being the closest but it missed the mark on several levels, but that would be a topic for a separate thread.

    I am really tired of "them" remaking the same MMORPG that we've been seeing since EQ1, there are alternative paths to MMORPG development, probably why I'm back to playing EVE which still my longest running title, perhaps not because its so good, but there's just such a dearth of alternatives out there.

    I'll be trying DFUW when it releases, even though I am not a fan of full loot PVP games.  Anything for a change at this point, and who knows, I might end up enjoying it.

     

    I played 3 of your 4 and I will agree. I miss a lot of those mechanics. The PvP aspects of modern games are severly lacking in my opinion. I wrote another post touching on this subject as well.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,219
    Originally posted by Wardop
    Originally posted by timtrack

    I guess it has alot to do with the "mainstreamification" of MMO's. We now expect everything in every MMO to be for everyone, and especially ourselves. A long time ago i would see something in an MMO and think "that's fucking impossible". And if i saw someone who achieved this i'd say "awesome, well done dude". And i'd make a decision about wether i should persue this goal or not. Never ever did i think "i'm entitled/justified to achieve this", like a game build for millions of people was only built for me.

     

    I do miss the days when "epics were epics". Even seeing someone else having something awesome, was in fact awesome. I'd be humble, a little jealous, but never feel entitled or justified to achieve the same thing. Whatever it was, maybe it simply wasn't for me. You could then strutt along with your own realistic goals and be happy with that. E-peen was a nice-to-have, not a "I'M ENTITLED TO HAVE E-PEEN!!111".

     

    Instant gratification is the bane of this genre. We crave more of it because we think it's what we want. When we get it it's not enough because it never can be.

    I do miss the days when "epics were epics". Even seeing someone else having something awesome, was in fact awesome. I'd be humble, a little jealous

    Yes. This. Someone had something really cool. I didn't. That was ok. In DAoC, for me, it was swords with effects early on. They were fairly rare, and you'd be beating down a door and someone would pull out their "glowy" (cause that's really about all they were good for) and everyone would go "oooo". But you knew to get one you had to go and kill the things that dropped them.  And you probably needed some friends to come along because it was a pain in the ass to get to. But I never felt I deserved a glowie, yeah I wanted one, but hadn't done what I needed to to get one.

     

    Then when you hit 50, you could do the quest for your epic class armor. You couldn't do it alone. Not every 50 had it, sometimes it took months to get enough people together at the right time to go do it. And when you got it, it was a big freakin deal.

    Yeah, I recall when glowy swords made their appearance, my first one came from Darkness Falls and you're right, stats wise it wasn't very epic, but it looked so bad arse I used it all the time, to the point of it starting to wear out (due to durability losses, another missing mechanic from most games) and of course, they added more glowy swords (and even the ability to custom color them, remember that?)

    Stupid Mythic, they made DAOC so good that it seems to have permanently damaged my ability to enjoy any game that isn't old school DAOC.  Even WAR didn't do it for me since it was more along the modern theme park style of gameplay than traditional.

    But I still have hope, there's a chance someone will once again hit on the right forumula, which is why I pretty much try every new title out there, just in case I don't want to miss it.

     

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
    Originally posted by timtrack

    I guess it has alot to do with the "mainstreamification" of MMO's. We now expect everything in every MMO to be for everyone, and especially ourselves. A long time ago i would see something in an MMO and think "that's fucking impossible". And if i saw someone who achieved this i'd say "awesome, well done dude". And i'd make a decision about wether i should persue this goal or not. Never ever did i think "i'm entitled/justified to achieve this", like a game build for millions of people was only built for me.

     

    I do miss the days when "epics were epics". Even seeing someone else having something awesome, was in fact awesome. I'd be humble, a little jealous, but never feel entitled or justified to achieve the same thing. Whatever it was, maybe it simply wasn't for me. You could then strutt along with your own realistic goals and be happy with that. E-peen was a nice-to-have, not a "I'M ENTITLED TO HAVE E-PEEN!!111".

     

    Instant gratification is the bane of this genre. We crave more of it because we think it's what we want. When we get it it's not enough because it never can be.

    I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle.  Players have become accustomed to getting a never ending stream of shiney gear.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • OmnifishOmnifish Member Posts: 616
    Originally posted by Wardop
    Originally posted by timtrack

    I guess it has alot to do with the "mainstreamification" of MMO's. We now expect everything in every MMO to be for everyone, and especially ourselves. A long time ago i would see something in an MMO and think "that's fucking impossible". And if i saw someone who achieved this i'd say "awesome, well done dude". And i'd make a decision about wether i should persue this goal or not. Never ever did i think "i'm entitled/justified to achieve this", like a game build for millions of people was only built for me.

     

    I do miss the days when "epics were epics". Even seeing someone else having something awesome, was in fact awesome. I'd be humble, a little jealous, but never feel entitled or justified to achieve the same thing. Whatever it was, maybe it simply wasn't for me. You could then strutt along with your own realistic goals and be happy with that. E-peen was a nice-to-have, not a "I'M ENTITLED TO HAVE E-PEEN!!111".

     

    Instant gratification is the bane of this genre. We crave more of it because we think it's what we want. When we get it it's not enough because it never can be.

    I do miss the days when "epics were epics". Even seeing someone else having something awesome, was in fact awesome. I'd be humble, a little jealous

    Yes. This. Someone had something really cool. I didn't. That was ok. In DAoC, for me, it was swords with effects early on. They were fairly rare, and you'd be beating down a door and someone would pull out their "glowy" (cause that's really about all they were good for) and everyone would go "oooo". But you knew to get one you had to go and kill the things that dropped them.  And you probably needed some friends to come along because it was a pain in the ass to get to. But I never felt I deserved a glowie, yeah I wanted one, but hadn't done what I needed to to get one.

     

    Then when you hit 50, you could do the quest for your epic class armor. You couldn't do it alone. Not every 50 had it, sometimes it took months to get enough people together at the right time to go do it. And when you got it, it was a big freakin deal.

    Hehe I remember this for WoW, being in Blackrock as a bunch of 40's and a level 60 in full Grand Marshall gear turned up to help out.  The rest of us stood in awe and I asked him at one point what the hell he was doing there when he should of been farming PvP nonstop.  That was a different time though.

    I agree in principle with what your saying OP.  Memories of those first games are generally always more brighter then they actually were.  For many people it's a sense of discovery, doing these things for the first time that makes it so special.  Maybe some of us have become bitter because we can never recapture that feeling, much like a lost youth, so new games on the market just remind us that we won't feel that way again. That's not true for everyone and some people adapt better then others, but I think there are people definately like you mention.

    In terms of these boards, I'd say there is another factor to the whining.  Overhyping the new savior of the genre.

    The cycle has been going since WAR, AOC later with SWTOR, RIFT and most recently GW2. Usually it follows this pattern:

    1. Game is announced developer says some nice things. Some people on this forum say they'll keep an eye on it.

    2. Maybe a year or two in developers start talking about their key features, or what other games do wrong and they'll do right in marketing speak using buzzwords. There maybe a video or two at this point.  The hype builds to it's highest point as the unknowns make it so the wildest possibly fantasies could come true.  Some people on these boards fall in love completely at this point, and make multiple threads about how great and genre changing the game will be.

    3. A year before launch, some people/a journalist get a brief playtest at a convention.  Anyone who like's what they found is an okay guy.  Anyone who has reservations or unsure how the direction of the game is going, will be blasted with how, 'they don't get it', or, 'not playing it right, stuck in their ways', or, 'not crediable', on these boards by the lovers. Evidence for this point will be sourced by what the developers said in an interview somewhere. By this point there are more recent converts to the diehards thinking and are rabidly looking forward to the game. 

    4. Six months before launch something negative, or with a bad conitation will happen, (a cashshop introduction, cutting starting cities etc), is announced.  Some people will start to voice concerns but the diehards will shut them down, with developer interviews reassuring you it's a good thing and how even though said feature/lack of feature is essential in other games it's not here because this game is totally different and amazing.

    5. Game releases, has teething problems, some whine, but it's teething problems and are quickly shutdown by everyone else.

    5. 3-4 weeks into game launch and the game is no where near the savior of the genre some made it out to be.  It maybe a very good game, but it doesn't have the range of possibilites or the amount of genre changing innitatives that the diehards said it would.  Some people, while not always aware of it, buy the game based of the hype from the diehards on these boards.  Hence, the whining starts, becasue they feel let down by the community they chose to follow.

     

    This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Member Posts: 1,832

    @Wardop,

    I'm going to have to disagree with you here significantly.  I think the point you are missing here is that there is no "We" as in "We want this" or "We want that."  What you are reading is a very broad swath of opinions here from very different people with very different tastes who want very different things. That's quite normal in terms of human behavior and customer demographics across almost every vertical (not just gaming). The problem comes when game developers think they can satisfy all these divergent and contradictory tastes with just a single product. That is,  indeed, impossible to do. The thing is, it's completely uneccessary to even try to do that. Consider translating what you said to the automotive industry for just a second... You have folks that want the economy-hybrid-subcompact, folks that want the rugged off-road 4x4, folks that want the big family mini-van that can carry thier 6 kids, folks that want the "muscle car", etc. It would indeed be impossible to satisfy all those divergent interests in a single vehicle. However automobile manufacturers were smart enough to realize that it's completely uneccessary to try....they built different cars for people of different interests. That's a lesson that MMO Developers haven't been able to learn yet (or have been struggling to figure out how to do that in a cost efficient manner). What I've seen is alot of MMO Developers chasing after one specific market segment....and failing to get enough customers to support thier products, because while that segment may be quite large, it isn't large enough to support nearly all the offerings that are targeted after it. Now if we take a look at my personal responses to your list of 10....I think a very different picture emerges about the feasability of making such a game (leaving aside for a moment, the question of if there is a large enough audience with similar preferences).

    "It has to be new and different...."  - Yeah I'd like something different then what we've been seeing lately, don't really care whether or not it has some familiar features.

    "It has to have raids." - No, I'd actualy prefer no Raids.

    "It has to be hardcore, but casual friendly."  - You'll have to define hardcore and casual freindly a bit more...but I'm likely fine with what would be considered "hardcore" by most.

    "Leveling shouldn't be a grind, but 'endgame' should be a non-stop treadmill; a never ending grind." -  Actualy, I'm perfectly fine with ZERO progression. I'm also fine with Leveling being a long or short journey. I actualy don't neccesarly care if it has an "end game". The only thing I don't want is the ENTIRE game focusing on boring repitiveness.

    "There should be no levels, or skills, or  gear stats that mean anything; but progression must still be measurable." - I'm actualy fine with anything from ZERO progression to significant Level/Skill progression. I don't like significant Gear progression however......and my only 2 requirements are that progression is not the SOLE focus of the game, and level/skill progression allow for significant variety between characters.

    "t should be a sandbox, but tell you what to do."  It should be a sandbox but provide the character with sufficient background information about what's going on in the world/story arcs so that they can make intelligent choices. This is hardly a novel concept, this has been the backbone style of play of PnP RPG campaigns and MUDs for decades.

    "It should be a themepark, but let you do whatever you want."  - No interest in playing a themepark at the moment.

    "The world should be huge and open, but you want instant transportation so you never have to see it." - Firmly against instant transportation or even "fast travel".

    "It should fill your empty hours, but not require any time investment." - Perfectly fine with significant time investment.

    "It must contain everything on your wishlist, even the things you didn't know you wanted. It must be exactly as you feel it should be. And, it must be free."  - It doesn't have to contain everything on my wish list, but it certainly has to contain enough of it to make it worth my time to play when compared to other activities which I enjoy. I most certainly do NOT want it to be free. I vastly prefer the subscription model and generaly think games today undercharge....I would happly pay $30-50 per month for a QUALITY MMO that met the majority of my preferences....I simply haven't seen one realsed in a long time, that's worth my TIME forget about the money.

    Now do you think it's impossible to code a game that meets the above?...Or do you simply think that most developers have been CHOOSING not to because they don't percieve there is a large enough audience to make the kind of returns they want?

     

  • WardopWardop Member UncommonPosts: 28
    Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

    @Wardop,

    I'm going to have to disagree with you here significantly.  I think the point you are missing here is that there is no "We" as in "We want this" or "We want that."  What you are reading is a very broad swath of opinions here from very different people with very different tastes who want very different things. That's quite normal in terms of human behavior and customer demographics across almost every vertical (not just gaming). The problem comes when game developers think they can satisfy all these divergent and contradictory tastes with just a single product. That is,  indeed, impossible to do. The thing is, it's completely uneccessary to even try to do that. Consider translating what you said to the automotive industry for just a second... You have folks that want the economy-hybrid-subcompact, folks that want the rugged off-road 4x4, folks that want the big family mini-van that can carry thier 6 kids, folks that want the "muscle car", etc. It would indeed be impossible to satisfy all those divergent interests in a single vehicle. However automobile manufacturers were smart enough to realize that it's completely uneccessary to try....they built different cars for people of different interests. That's a lesson that MMO Developers haven't been able to learn yet (or have been struggling to figure out how to do that in a cost efficient manner). What I've seen is alot of MMO Developers chasing after one specific market segment....and failing to get enough customers to support thier products, because while that segment may be quite large, it isn't large enough to support nearly all the offerings that are targeted after it. Now if we take a look at my personal responses to your list of 10....I think a very different picture emerges about the feasability of making such a game (leaving aside for a moment, the question of if there is a large enough audience with similar preferences).

    "It has to be new and different...."  - Yeah I'd like something different then what we've been seeing lately, don't really care whether or not it has some familiar features.

    "It has to have raids." - No, I'd actualy prefer no Raids.

    "It has to be hardcore, but casual friendly."  - You'll have to define hardcore and casual freindly a bit more...but I'm likely fine with what would be considered "hardcore" by most.

    "Leveling shouldn't be a grind, but 'endgame' should be a non-stop treadmill; a never ending grind." -  Actualy, I'm perfectly fine with ZERO progression. I'm also fine with Leveling being a long or short journey. I actualy don't neccesarly care if it has an "end game". The only thing I don't want is the ENTIRE game focusing on boring repitiveness.

    "There should be no levels, or skills, or  gear stats that mean anything; but progression must still be measurable." - I'm actualy fine with anything from ZERO progression to significant Level/Skill progression. I don't like significant Gear progression however......and my only 2 requirements are that progression is not the SOLE focus of the game, and level/skill progression allow for significant variety between characters.

    "t should be a sandbox, but tell you what to do."  It should be a sandbox but provide the character with sufficient background information about what's going on in the world/story arcs so that they can make intelligent choices. This is hardly a novel concept, this has been the backbone style of play of PnP RPG campaigns and MUDs for decades.

    "It should be a themepark, but let you do whatever you want."  - No interest in playing a themepark at the moment.

    "The world should be huge and open, but you want instant transportation so you never have to see it." - Firmly against instant transportation or even "fast travel".

    "It should fill your empty hours, but not require any time investment." - Perfectly fine with significant time investment.

    "It must contain everything on your wishlist, even the things you didn't know you wanted. It must be exactly as you feel it should be. And, it must be free."  - It doesn't have to contain everything on my wish list, but it certainly has to contain enough of it to make it worth my time to play when compared to other activities which I enjoy. I most certainly do NOT want it to be free. I vastly prefer the subscription model and generaly think games today undercharge....I would happly pay $30-50 per month for a QUALITY MMO that met the majority of my preferences....I simply haven't seen one realsed in a long time, that's worth my TIME forget about the money.

    Now do you think it's impossible to code a game that meets the above?...Or do you simply think that most developers have been CHOOSING not to because they don't percieve there is a large enough audience to make the kind of returns they want?

    I also said that not everyone wants all of that, not everyone wants any of that. It's a generalization of the things you see here.

    Now do you think it's impossible to code a game that meets the above?...Or do you simply think that most developers have been CHOOSING not to because they don't perceive there is a large enough audience to make the kind of returns they want?

    You are one of the minority, like me, who would play that game. Even those of us (and by us and we I mean people who think like I do, not the gaming community as a whole) who claim to want those days back probably wouldn't actually play it. Again, my opinion, but the definition of a successful game has changed. A ten-thousand players used to be great, now its considered a failure. By the community and the industry.
  • MMORPDEATHMMORPDEATH Member Posts: 414
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Naw, it's not me, it's definitely "them".

    I will confess, I am looking for something that my first 4 MMORPG's had in them, a castle sieging, PVP, territory control style end game with almost limitless character progression in terms of power.  (see Lineage 1, 2, DAOC and Shadowbane)

    Attempts at repeating these experiences have fallen short in modern times, with Aion probably being the closest but it missed the mark on several levels, but that would be a topic for a separate thread.

    I am really tired of "them" remaking the same MMORPG that we've been seeing since EQ1, there are alternative paths to MMORPG development, probably why I'm back to playing EVE which still my longest running title, perhaps not because its so good, but there's just such a dearth of alternatives out there.

    I'll be trying DFUW when it releases, even though I am not a fan of full loot PVP games.  Anything for a change at this point, and who knows, I might end up enjoying it.

     

    Could not agree more even though the grind in Lineage 2 was nauseating as was the learning curve for EVE. PVE-focused MMOs are fail, besides maybe the first 30 levels or so of Age of Conan. DAOC and Shadowbane are the only mmo's that ever gave me that "wow" factor that the OP is talking about. I'm playing Aion now but it feels like a EQ2 PVP server gankfest with worse pve plus DAOC endgame in some distant future that I probably wont reach.

    Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice.

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