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Problem with not having the trinity
Yamota
Member UncommonPosts: 6,593
in Guild Wars 2
One of GW 2 "features" is that it does not have any trinity system of tanks, healers etc but the problem, from what I have experienced so far, is that it has replaced it with tank, damage, CC but just removed the healer and allowing everyone to have self heals, with long cool down and some classes to have some limited healing.
Not sure I see the improvment here. I heard that this is supposedly be replaced by classes which can prevent damage but which class is so good at preventing damage so to not need healing?
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Yes GW2 has a 'lose trinity' of damage/support/control. Each profession can perform each roll quite well, and all three are needed to successfully complete the dungeons. As Fendel said, there are no tanks. You can certainly build up a very defensive characters but with no way to taunt or control agro, it is impossible to tank.
I notice a lot of folks having trouble with the dungeons, but more and more seem to be 'getting it', that the dungeons in GW2 are not faceroll easy instances where everyone just blasts through them without batting an eye like WoW. They take some skill, knowledge of your profession, complitent builds and above all, working together for the best results.
I don't think that's the intent. The idea is that you don't have players who are dedicated to roles in a way that mandates specific compositions of groups and specific specializations of each class. In other words, a "healing class" would be considered worthless if they wanted to spec for damage in the old model using a trinity. This game precludes this by saying there is no damage/healing dynamic. It's reworked to by focused on ideas of damage, control and support which are executed by all players in varying capacities. It's not that they've removed the need for healing and damage mitigation, but they've redefined and redistributed these responsibilities amongst the entire group and instituting a more democratic approach to group play. You can't just worry about topping off health bars or holding aggro or maintaing your dps rotation. You have to pay attention to you, your allies, your enemies, what's happening, what's about to happen, etc. It feels much more engaged. It reminds me a lot of playing Halo with friends online.
I don't think this is an innovation that should be widely adopted by every game going forward. However, I'm very pleased with the step in a distinctly new direction with respect to class roles. I am interested to see how dungeons feel to me. Some people love it and others hate it. I'm inclined to think I'll prefer it simply because I'm so exhausted with the tank and spank approach to PvE. I think the old paradigm of MMOs will be around for a long, long time, but I'm hopeful that we'll see more companies trying to do things differently. It's how games have progressed since the beginning of games. How could Pong turn into Resident Evil if developers never challenge conventions and imagine bold, new things?
Like some said there is no aggro system. I personally feel the GW2 dungeons like a Wow dungeon with a crappy tank.
I'm not saying that in a bad way, I always kinda like to be able to kite/stun/cc mobs to their death even with a dead/fail tank
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The Ele can actually be tanky as well
I have nothing against creating something else to replace the trinity system but however you cut it, you still need to either prevent or heal damage done and I cant see either of these roles being properly done by any class in this game. I mean which class can continously CC mobs to prevent damage? Or have bubbles which are up constantly?
There is a sprinkle of these skills all over the place but not enough for properly managing the damage the party is being dealt and I am not sure how that is an improvment, it just makes you die more often because there is no consistent way of preventing or healing damage.
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Another outright blatant lie.
My Warrior with mace + shield traited towards full toughness & vitality can easily stand between you and that mob to take the hits for you. I can also stun-chain the mob to gain hate back on me, and to allow you to escape its wraith.
You aren't playing GW2 if you think what Fendel84M is true. My guild already has "Roles" lined up for people who want them, and we use them to great effect in dungeons and in World Events. Hasn't failed us yet.
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Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Warriors and Guardians are considered tanks since they usually take the brunt of the damage when they go melee.
I agree, it's complete pandamonium without tanks controling the mobs and player corpses everywhere without dedicated healers.
But honestly, I'm kinda glad this isn't another game where 99% of the population are DPS and the remaining 1% are healers and tanks.
"When you're born you're naked, when you die you're naked again, and in-between all we do is work, eat, and play MMOs." ~Forum Warrior #141
Did you ever play city of heroes? You could run instances without tanks and healers.
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There is actually an "Aggro system", however just like Heart quests with those "Progress BarS" that hide how many X Bear Butts you need to farm, Aggro system is hidden just the same.
You can tell this by spamming stuns, or DPS, and standing the closest to a mob than other people. Mobs don't just "randomly" pick a target, and you can actually piss a Veteran, Champion, or Boss mob off to the point it focuses souly on you.
Playing more would lend this info to you more readily however.
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Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
On my mesmer, I have selected a trait that has my clones apply a cripple on shatter. So, while I'm doing damage to the enemy, maybe throwing out that phantasm off the greatsword that also cripples or using it to knock foes back, or switching to scepter/pistol (which I love, btw) to keep the pain going, or get that lovely multiple target stun off etc. I'm also simultaneously preventing a lot of damage by keeping the foes from being able to reach my allies or having a constant influx of clones/phantasms taking damage that would have otherwise gone to an ally or myself.
Here's the beauty of it... I'm not playing any roles. I've been able to shed the whole "role" concept completely and instead focus on what gives me a balance of capabilities. For a little control, as mentioned I added the trait to cripple on shatter. In addition I also have a trait to remove a random boon on shatter. To help a little more with overall support I'm targetting next the trait to apply rejuvination on allies near a phantasm of mine.
Yeah, I've been disregarded for saying before that there are no roles anymore. But you know what? It's actually working out that way, and quite well.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I think that is the beauty of this games system. Sure you can try to mimmick a tank if you want. You can spec an elementalist for heals so there is a healer same as tank then. But i've seen defensive guardians run in first and get trampled 100 times faster than any traditional "tank" would.
If thats how you want to play, go for it. But you don't have to. We've all seen the video of the full DPS specced group doing the dungeon they never did before and surviving.
The way it is handled right now is: SOMETHING IS GOING TO DIE. You cannot outheal mobs, only avoid damage for a certain amount of time and have teamates do the same, as a group. Your abilities to deny damage taken increase greatly, making for around 30 mins of decent survivability in dungeons (if everyone knows what they are doing, making aggro bounce properly, etc).
The game does not have an enrage timer in dungeons, but if the fight lasts too long you WILL die, damage accumulates over time, in the form of whatever mechanic you have been throwing yourself against, in explorable modes, the best is to not have ANYONE assigned to any particular role, but being able to adapt to the current fight on the fly (if a boss scorpion wires everyone into a dagger storm have everyone use a stun breaker, aka first boss in explorable AC). Decent management of dodges/blinds can do wonders for a team.
I played CoH extensively and the reason you could survive without a healer, on tougher instances, was if you had a really good CC. On easier instances it was possible because mobs are so weak that you can spread the damage.
However, for the record, CoH had dedicated healer and tanks and they were quite effective.
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That is funny because I feel that in GW 2 everyone is, more or less, DPS because that is the only role that can be effectively filled. Tanks and CC are also there but they cannot consistently fill their roles which means they are mostly DPS as well.
So as I see it, in GW 2, they changed tank/healer/CC/DPS ----> DPS with off CC and tanks. Not sure I see the improvement.
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I would have to disagree especially on the last part there..... guardian have a lot of ways to prevent damage and some healing. They just aren't taunts and outright heals.
For example a reflecting wall stops a ton of incoming damage and cc... its up for about 5 or 6 seconds? Seems long in a fight. It's counter play are volley style moves or attack that go ground up.
Guardians also have a shield 5 which is a knock back and ranged damage shield.
They also have a small bubble that stops incoming damage, forces enemies out and heals people under it....
They have a much bigger bubble that stops ranged attacks....
I can keep going here... but if you think there's no mitigating damage you're sorely mistaken.
It's human nature when faced with something different we desire something familar. Could it simply be that your not used to the play style(s) of Guild Wars 2 but have years invested in the trinity? The game hasn't been out that long there is time to adapt. It's ok, you don't have to be an expert from day one or have it all figured out in a week or two.
Didn't say there wasn't. What I said is that there isn't anyone who can consistently do it because the skills that do exist are on relatively long timers so you can continously keep them up. However I am not experienced enough in Guardians to say for sure but if someone is and can tell me that they can consistently mitigate damage over time then please do tell me how.
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*nods*
The difference between this game and others is: "you don't have to wait around for 2-6 hours every time you need a healer and tank just to go do something".
"When you're born you're naked, when you die you're naked again, and in-between all we do is work, eat, and play MMOs." ~Forum Warrior #141
Actually the system which I liked and played the most was Asherons Call which also did not have dedicated healers but rather an open skill system. However what existed in that game was consistent damage mitigation buffs, which at high levels lasted for almost an hour and consistent self heals.
That is not the case here, none of the damage mitigation abilities can be consistently used over time due to long cool down.
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You can't, believe it or not, purely fill a dps role either. The skills you bring don't allow such a generic approach. You'll have with you skills that do damage to foes, control foes through various means and support allies through various means, with most of them doing multiple things at a time. It's no longer a matter of what role you fill. It's a matter of using the right skills at the right time based on the situation. The better your balance across all three aspects, the greater your overall versatility and effectiveness will be in this combat system.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Also, anyone who claims they can "tank" has not done a dungeon yet. Even in the first dungeon, you have to keep handing off bosses. Foefire will kill you, tank or no, in seconds.