There's a guy on the TSW forums that will insist that the game is of the Super Hero genre if you ask him. I mean, you get powers, you fight bad guys. You have a secret identity. He wants funcom to release capes and masks and unitards so it will be even more like what it already is.
Speaking of tards, it's not a fantasy game, either. Just because there's this thing called "Urban Fantasy" that shares an 'f' word with another genre, doesn't mean much. Yeah, it's got magic and shit in it. If you really want your genre categories to be so broad that "it's got magic and shit in it" makes something fantasy, then that's your problem. You end up with there being like, 4 possible genres.
In the end, there's only one criteria that matters. if somebody comes up to you and says "What's the setting of The Secret World?" and you answer "It's a fantasy game," then you're being a misleading nincompoop. You can argue semantics and technicalities all you want. In the end, that's all that matters.
My point is, the OP is setting up paper tigers. Who is arguing that there are not fantasy elements in the game? It takes a little from everything, that is the point of the game.
Fantasy has a specific meaning when it comes to genre. It means Dwarves, Elves, Dragons and princesses. If a person says it isn't "Fantasy" that is what they mean.
Fantasy and Urban fantasy have to different meanings.
They OP is trying to say, because people say it isn't a "Fantasy" setting, they are some how saying there are "No fantasy elements to it" that is just wrong.
Who is saying there are no fantasy elements ? Who is the OP dissagreeing with? Where are all these posts making this claim?
Yeah, I agree with you. There's fantasy elements just like there are superhero elements, just like there are horror elements, and so on and so forth. Some mild cyberpunk elements too, now that I think of it.
I suspect the OP's motivations are something like this- if he can defend the position that this is a 'fantasy game', then he can defend the position that the game 'isn't original'. And that's the sense in which calling it a fantasy game is misleading. There's a difference between what a word means, and what people think when they hear a word. I suppose the OP is trying to insist upon one so he can exploit the other.
Originally posted by Thenextbigthing The term fantasy comes from 'fantastic fiction' which originally included pretty much everything like H.G. Wells, Jules Verne and Tarzan by Edgar Rice Burrows. So I think TSW certainly fits into the fantastical. Nowadays we think 'fantasy' is always high medieval fantasy like Tolkien, but that's just one area. TSW is certainly influenced by Lovecraft, but it seems to me also the fantasy of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Ragnar himself says it's 'dark fantasy'.
You don't do yourself any favors utilising terms that people have no connection with, that is just stupid. Dark Fantasy is another sub genre, you are whittling your intended audience down further and further until you have nothing more than a niche group of people with any interest.
Funcom told people exactly what they wanted TSW to be. A horror inspired game influenced by authors such as H.P.Lovecraft, with a fantastical element all interconnected with secret societies. Now this might appeal to Ragnar - but as per usual he didn't have his finger on the pulse of the gaming community. To pull off a Dark Fantasy game he needed to bring something new to the table to get Dark Fantasy as a genre recognised and noticed. There needed to be some magnificent pull within the game, which would draw people regardless of genre. When the majority of people realised it wasn't leveless or classless in the true sense, it was just a different way of doing the same old stuff. I think Ragnar lost a lot of credibility. For an MMO we have been waiting on for such a long time, to just bring the same stuff (different guise) to an already full table is just beyond belief to be honest.
There are no character levels in the game, this is a fact, there is gear and weapon levels, but no character levels. There no classes in the game, there are over 500 abilities, but no defining classes, don't confuse classes with roles, I.E. a Warrior is a class, a tank is a role.
They are adding 9 auxilery weapons, which has it's own wheel, and if that's not enough, abilities from mobs will be learned via kill x number of mobs achievements, Funcom has created something unique, no MMO has made a sandbox out of abilities, Ragnar is gonna pull it off.
Effectively though the QL is a level. It's just not a traditional way of looking at levels.
Role playing games have progression. There are different types of progression.
1) There is level based progression, you character starts at level one gains exp then progresses to level two.
2) There is skill based progression, you gain skill as you use them or as you gain exp.
3) There is item based progression. You progress by aquiring more powerful gear.
4) there is rep based progression. You gain rep with a faction which offers you benefist with the faction.
TSW does not have the first, Level based progression. It does have both skill based progression and Item based progression.
The 'level based progression' argument is exact the same as the 'fantasy' argument. People who want to say the game isn't original will streeeeeeeeeeeetch the technical definitions of 'level' or 'fantasy' until they can make the terminology fit, so they can in turn say "this is a fantasy game with level-based progression".
Play with words all you want. The fact, however phrased, is that the game's two most original features are the setting and the progression system. Saying otherwise isn't fooling anybody who is familiar with the game, and serves only to mislead those who aren't.
The 'level based progression' argument is exact the same as the 'fantasy' argument. People who want to say the game isn't original will streeeeeeeeeeeetch the technical definitions of 'level' or 'fantasy' until they can make the terminology fit, so they can in turn say "this is a fantasy game with level-based progression".
Play with words all you want. The fact, however phrased, is that the game's two most original features are the setting and the progression system. Saying otherwise isn't fooling anybody who is familiar with the game, and serves only to mislead those who aren't.
Yeah, I agree. It is sort of like arguing with a chick (No offense) Instead of hearing what you said and meant, they will latch on to one single word, twist it out of contect in the worst possible way, then claim you meant the opposite of what you really said.
The 'level based progression' argument is exact the same as the 'fantasy' argument. People who want to say the game isn't original will streeeeeeeeeeeetch the technical definitions of 'level' or 'fantasy' until they can make the terminology fit, so they can in turn say "this is a fantasy game with level-based progression".
Play with words all you want. The fact, however phrased, is that the game's two most original features are the setting and the progression system. Saying otherwise isn't fooling anybody who is familiar with the game, and serves only to mislead those who aren't.
Yeah, I agree. It is sort of like arguing with a chick (No offense) Instead of hearing what you said and meant, they will latch on to one single word, twist it out of contect in the worst possible way, then claim you meant the opposite of what you really said.
Chicks, liberals, and strangers on the internet tend to argue that way because it's the easiest way to win without actually knowing what the hell you're talking about.
It's a gear level, not a character level. They stated no character levels, which there aren't.
Tornquist said freedom from classes and levels. They insinuated through their literature that this is a major selling point of the game. They still bang on about it, but when you look under the facade it's the same old thing done slightly differently.
Tornquist is making out like they have made something special with TSW that the majority of MMO gamers are not seeing. It's like the guy is blinkered. The majority of MMO gamers I think were waiting for something special in TSW. When they saw very little of interest and found the genre not overly appealing, well the sale figures say it all Tornquist in his ivory tower thinks he has started some sort of MMO revolution - when in actual fact he has probably put another death nail in the coffin.
The game is not perfect, and FC is not reinventing the wheel here, but to me, playing a multitude of roles in one single toon, that is freedom from the conventional classes in MMOs. II don't have to log to get an alt that can fill the role my group needs, everything can be done on 1 single toon.
As for levels, gear level is very different from character levels. Ragnar and company promised a game with no character levels, and they actually delivered that. I can always put on a set of gear QL 3 and the starting zones are challenging again. or I can put on my QL10 gear and I can be overpowered in those same zones. Again, they are not reinventing the wheel, but they actually delivered a game with no character levels. It's kinda like what GW2 did with the downscaling, but I think TSW does it better providing options to play how you want to play the content, and to me, again, that is freedom, and they delivered on that promise.
Now you're free to express your opinion, and it's perfectly fine with me if you believe the game is not special, or if you think Ragnar is full of it, but to me, the less than stellar sales only prove the game is not popular, because the world that Ragnar delivered, again in my opinion, is a superbly crafted story-driven experience in a modern day setting, filled with mystery and supernatural stories, legends, and myths, and that makes the game very special indeed.
I waited many years for a game like this, and I am quite pleased to be a part of this world that Ragnar created, and yes, that includes bugs and issues, etc.
The game is not for everyone, and indeed might have a very limited audience, but for that small audience, intended or not, it truly is a gem of a game.
People, typically the fans, will trump the game an non-fantasy due to the setting to try to give the game more weight.
But the game is fantasy, making it a modern time setting does not make it non-fantasy. It has all the creatures of fantasy, it has swords, magic, all the properties of fantasy but is held in a modern setting. Want a non fantasy game? Look up EVE and Planet Side 2.
Play with words all you want. The fact, however phrased, is that the game's two most original features are the setting and the progression system. Saying otherwise isn't fooling anybody who is familiar with the game, and serves only to mislead those who aren't.
Two most original features of the game are setting and the progression system. Now you see why the game didn't sell. If the setting has mass appeal then you are on to a winner, well no the setting does not have mass appeal. If the progression system is that far advanced that it is termed revolutionary, a word Tornquist likes to use, then perhaps that would of been a draw. But you scratch the surface on that and you can see levels and classes reworked - in fact opting to get away from traditional levels could be argued has been detrimental to the whole game.
Like I said before where is the hook to this game? I don't' see the hook anywhere. It needed to do something exceptionally well, PVP for example, or capture peoples imagination 'fus-roh-dah'. It didn't do any of that and for all his spouting I think Tornquist is the liability on this venture. His vision was not a popular vision, he is determined to take the game in the direction he wants to go. Funcom as a company have never listened to their users. The future is anything but bright and I don't think it's the genre at fault at all. Even if it wasn't popular a genre can become very popular if it captures the imagination of people.
Play with words all you want. The fact, however phrased, is that the game's two most original features are the setting and the progression system. Saying otherwise isn't fooling anybody who is familiar with the game, and serves only to mislead those who aren't.
Two most original features of the game are setting and the progression system. Now you see why the game didn't sell. If the setting has mass appeal then you are on to a winner, well no the setting does not have mass appeal. If the progression system is that far advanced that it is termed revolutionary, a word Tornquist likes to use, then perhaps that would of been a draw. But you scratch the surface on that and you can see levels and classes reworked - in fact opting to get away from traditional levels could be argued has been detrimental to the whole game.
Like I said before where is the hook to this game? I don't' see the hook anywhere.
? TSW doesn't have levels or classes, at least not as you see them in most MMO's. In most other MMO's, when you selected to be a priest or pure healing class, you can't be a tank or AoE nuke, and not all the available skills ingame are free for you to choose from. Sure, there have been other MMO's that didn't have that class structure, where you could pick your own skills and build your own role, but all in all they've been a very slim minority: when you pick your class, you get your list of skills to pick from and that's it, other ones won't be available to you. Same with levels. TSW has a progression system, just like other MMO's that don't use character levels. But once again, MMO's without (character based) levels are very, very rare.
The hook in the game is the different setting that hasn't been done like that in MMO's yet, incl the atmosphere that provides its own richness to quests, exploring and dungeons. It's not everyone's thing, just like scifi in modern literature is far less mainstream than fantasy, or how a game like Amnesia, one of the better horror games, is still more niche than other mainstream horror games. So be it. I like it, that the MMO scene has come to offer more variety in themes and setups than it did in former years.
? TSW doesn't have levels or classes, at least not as you see them in most MMO's. In most other MMO's, when you selected to be a priest or pure healing class, you can't be a tank or AoE nuke, and not all the available skills ingame are free for you to choose from. Sure, there have been other MMO's that didn't have that class structure, where you could pick your own skills and build your own role, but all in all they've been a very slim minority: when you pick your class, you get your list of skills to pick from and that's it, other ones won't be available to you. Same with levels. TSW has a progression system, just like other MMO's that don't use character levels. But once again, MMO's without (character based) levels are very, very rare.
The hook in the game is the different setting that hasn't been done like that in MMO's yet, incl the atmosphere that provides its own richness to quests, exploring and dungeons. It's not everyone's thing, just like scifi in modern literature is far less mainstream than fantasy, or how a game like Amnesia, one of the better horror games, is still more niche than other mainstream horror games. So be it. I like it, that the MMO scene has come to offer more variety in themes and setups than it did in former years.
Been discussed over and over again, TSW may not have traditional levels or classes but it does contain both in a different guise depending on how you look at it overall. Certainly what Funcom produced in this area was certainly not worth the wait.
If the hook is the genre, then why pick a genre that has such a niche following. Don't they want their game to do well? If the only hook is the genre, pick something that has a bigger following like mainstream fantasy. It kind of makes no sense in this instance to rely on genre as the hook. What it needed was a game mechanic that would draw people to play the game and ignore the genre. Half the problem with TSW is the genre not being appealing to many people apart from Tornquist and a few chums.
If the hook is the genre, then why pick a genre that has such a niche following. Don't they want their game to do well? If the only hook is the genre, pick something that has a bigger following like mainstream fantasy. It kind of makes no sense in this instance to rely on genre as the hook. What it needed was a game mechanic that would draw people to play the game and ignore the genre. Half the problem with TSW is the genre not being appealing to many people apart from Tornquist and a few chums.
I don't have a problem if not all MMO's try to cater to the common denominator, BW tried that with SWTOR, others tried that to apply to the exact mainstream base that liked WoW mechanics or high fantasy, which is the reason the MMO field has grown far more stale than it was before. MMO's in the first years managed to be profitable with like 50-100k of subs and still delivered rich, entertaining MMO worlds. So no, I want MMO companies to not go for the mainstream settings and mechanics only. Horror/suspense themes/conspiracy like TSW has and Undead Labs' zombie MMO will have and World of Darkness, yes, please. If other MMO companies want to go for more user content generation tools, great, or for FFA PvP, nice although niche, or for more RP tooling and options or for hardcore crafting etc. A number of those ideas may not be 'mainstream', but the more diversity the better.
Originally posted by Nomis278 As has no doubt been said multiple times so far in this thread, it's urban fantasy. There's a shed load of books in classed as urban fantasy these days, some of them are pretty good.
A lot of them are really good. It doesn't seem like they've pulled from current urban fantasy novels though. Jim Butcher, Kelley Armstrong and Kim Harrison are all current urban fantasy authors with books going back at least 5 years. Mike Shevdon is a newer author, but same thing, urban fantasy (I'd recommend looking his 3 novels up, they are pretty good). TSW doesn't seem that familiar to me. I've read a boatload of H.P. Lovecraft, Stephen King and Dean R. Koontz as well, and I didn't get a familiar vibe there either.
Niche is fine...it makes sense to shoot for a specific audience, I'm just not sure the audience they've crafted this game for actually plays games. They watch the "Aliens Did It" guy on History Channel.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Play with words all you want. The fact, however phrased, is that the game's two most original features are the setting and the progression system. Saying otherwise isn't fooling anybody who is familiar with the game, and serves only to mislead those who aren't.
Two most original features of the game are setting and the progression system. Now you see why the game didn't sell. If the setting has mass appeal then you are on to a winner, well no the setting does not have mass appeal. If the progression system is that far advanced that it is termed revolutionary, a word Tornquist likes to use, then perhaps that would of been a draw. But you scratch the surface on that and you can see levels and classes reworked - in fact opting to get away from traditional levels could be argued has been detrimental to the whole game.
Well, where does that leave ME, though? Sure, Funcom could have made yet another bullshit fantasy game with elves and orcs and crap, using the same leveling system as WoW and Star Wars and Everquest and a billion other games, but then I wouldn't play it because I'm tired of all that shit. So what's your point? I should encourage developers to make WoW over and over again until the goddamned stars burn out? I didn't like the original world of warcraft, why do I want anybody to make the 50,000th rip off of it? I don't work for Funcom, my motivation here is not "I hope Funcom succeeds as a company even if they do it by making crap I would never play."
As far as the progression system in the game being classes and levels once you 'scratch the surface', you're just incorrect. it's not much at all like a standard level/class progression system. You're just playing with words, like I talked about in previous posts.
Play with words all you want. The fact, however phrased, is that the game's two most original features are the setting and the progression system. Saying otherwise isn't fooling anybody who is familiar with the game, and serves only to mislead those who aren't.
Two most original features of the game are setting and the progression system. Now you see why the game didn't sell.
This is why we end up with the same, Fantasy, elves and dwarves setting.
Generic MMO after Generic MMO.
Because ultimately Fallenlords is right, more player are like him and don't want something new or original.
So game companies don't try anything new, don't try to be original, just create the same old same old.
And people wonder why MMO's have gottens stagnant.
Play with words all you want. The fact, however phrased, is that the game's two most original features are the setting and the progression system. Saying otherwise isn't fooling anybody who is familiar with the game, and serves only to mislead those who aren't.
Two most original features of the game are setting and the progression system. Now you see why the game didn't sell.
This is why we end up with the same, Fantasy, elves and dwarves setting.
Generic MMO after Generic MMO.
Because ultimately Fallenlords is right, more player are like him and don't want something new or original.
So game companies don't try anything new, don't try to be original, just create the same old same old.
And people wonder why MMO's have gottens stagnant.
But there's a huge margin between "Successful enough to turn a decent profit" and "The next WoW". CCP knows this- Eve Online will never be as big as WoW and I'm sure they knew that from day one. Funcom seems to know it as well. There are plenty of developers making games they know won't be League of Legends. But for some reason, you have a vocal caste of gamer like Fallenlords insisting that it's ever game developers moral obligation to compete for the largest slice of the pie. Nevermind that it's not good business sense. They think it is.
Well, where does that leave ME, though? Sure, Funcom could have made yet another bullshit fantasy game with elves and orcs and crap, using the same leveling system as WoW and Star Wars and Everquest and a billion other games, but then I wouldn't play it because I'm tired of all that shit. So what's your point? I should encourage developers to make WoW over and over again until the goddamned stars burn out? I didn't like the original world of warcraft, why do I want anybody to make the 50,000th rip off of it? I don't work for Funcom, my motivation here is not "I hope Funcom succeeds as a company even if they do it by making crap I would never play."
As far as the progression system in the game being classes and levels once you 'scratch the surface', you're just incorrect. it's not much at all like a standard level/class progression system. You're just playing with words, like I talked about in previous posts.
Where is leaves you is among a niche group of players supporting a struggling game and company, is where it leaves you. With a company that on multiple occasions has let down it users, with a company that doesn't listen to their own users and goes in it's own direction. You like that direction, fair enough, but why anybody in their right mind aims to make a niche game in this day and age I don't know. Not without incorporating some sort of draw to the actual game itself above and beyond the genre.
As for having a leveless and classless design, it's all there under the surface. It doesn't have traditional classes or levels I will agree with that. Much in the same way Skyrim didn't have traditional classes and that is what they said. But TSW being free of levels and classes is rubbish. Any sort of progression you have levels. Any sort of 'best build', not unique to an individual player, then you have classes whether they are system defined or not.
I think you need to encourage developers to make good games. Just because a game is niche doesn't mean it's a bad game. But this isn't a one off game that can mill around for a year then suddenly get cult recognition. This is suppose to be an MMO, MMO's are suppose to appeal to a very large audience. In this game they have just made a Multiplayer Online Role Player Game - an MORPG. The term Massively can't really be used with such poor sales figures and such niche appeal.
Fantasy has many sub genres, this is true for every genre based medium. Horror, Dark Fantasy, Science Fiction (with it's own sub-genres; Zombie, Alien, Dystopian Future, etc.), Supernatural, High Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, etc... would be a very long list for them all. Essentially anything that is not true to the real world as we know it is Fantasy (Supernatural is questionable because some people believe it to be real). Even religous events (miracles) are defined as Fantasy from a purely scientific point of view.
Just about every industry split it into three smaller areas though; Sci-Fi, Horror and Fantasy. It's easier to market and easier for viewers to understand what to expect. The majority has adopted these genres as seperate now, regardless of whether or not the definitions of each blend into each other. It's how the world works and it works better for it, simple as that.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
In this game they have just made a Multiplayer Online Role Player Game - an MORPG. The term Massively can't really be used with such poor sales figures and such niche appeal.
This is complete and utter nonsense. I think you simply don't like FC and bc you dislike them, you also dislike all of their games. The number of sales or what setting they use have absolutely nothing at all to do whether a game is an MMORPG or not. According to you, as good none of the first MMORPG's and over 90% of the current MMORPG's aren't MMO's, for a dumb reason like that their sales aren't over a million or bc the genre isn't high fantasy or mainstream scifi.
There's a guy on the TSW forums that will insist that the game is of the Super Hero genre if you ask him. I mean, you get powers, you fight bad guys. You have a secret identity. He wants funcom to release capes and masks and unitards so it will be even more like what it already is.
Speaking of tards, it's not a fantasy game, either. Just because there's this thing called "Urban Fantasy" that shares an 'f' word with another genre, doesn't mean much. Yeah, it's got magic and shit in it. If you really want your genre categories to be so broad that "it's got magic and shit in it" makes something fantasy, then that's your problem. You end up with there being like, 4 possible genres.
In the end, there's only one criteria that matters. if somebody comes up to you and says "What's the setting of The Secret World?" and you answer "It's a fantasy game," then you're being a misleading nincompoop. You can argue semantics and technicalities all you want. In the end, that's all that matters.
My point is, the OP is setting up paper tigers. Who is arguing that there are not fantasy elements in the game? It takes a little from everything, that is the point of the game.
Fantasy has a specific meaning when it comes to genre. It means Dwarves, Elves, Dragons and princesses. If a person says it isn't "Fantasy" that is what they mean
This. When most people think of fantasy in MMOs, they aren't thinking of zombies. The setting is just one of many thinngs that makes TSW different from the rest.
In this game they have just made a Multiplayer Online Role Player Game - an MORPG. The term Massively can't really be used with such poor sales figures and such niche appeal.
This is complete and utter nonsense. I think you simply don't like FC and bc you dislike them, you also dislike all of their games. The number of sales or what setting they use have absolutely nothing at all to do whether a game is an MMORPG or not. According to you, as good none of the first MMORPG's and over 90% of the current MMORPG's aren't MMO's, for a dumb reason like that their sales aren't over a million or bc the genre isn't high fantasy or mainstream scifi.
I think TSW stretches the definition of an MMO. 200,000 sales which means about half haven't continued their subscription. Means perhaps about 100,000 current players of which not all will be online at the same time. Just because it's designed as an MMO doesn't mean it deserves the title.
Like I say how you can use the word Massively, when you get more players online in a simple multiplayer game I don't know. Just because there is a persistent world being hosted - you should have a minimum number of players to use the word Massively. WoW is an MMO with 10 million subs. But there is a universe of difference between 100,000 and 10 million. Yeah I would say to be able to use the title of Massively you need an average of 500,000 players/subs.
Age of Conan is a great game, poorly executed, poorly implemented and poorly supported. But a great game that had massive 'potential'. Which was not realised by Funcom, hence the hatred of the latter. If you can take something with great potential and a known IP, then turn it to mush. What real chance do you think these people are going to have with an unknown sub-genre game that has not evolved the MMO in any sense.
In this game they have just made a Multiplayer Online Role Player Game - an MORPG. The term Massively can't really be used with such poor sales figures and such niche appeal.
This is complete and utter nonsense. I think you simply don't like FC and bc you dislike them, you also dislike all of their games. The number of sales or what setting they use have absolutely nothing at all to do whether a game is an MMORPG or not. According to you, as good none of the first MMORPG's and over 90% of the current MMORPG's aren't MMO's, for a dumb reason like that their sales aren't over a million or bc the genre isn't high fantasy or mainstream scifi.
I think TSW stretches the definition of an MMO. 200,000 sales which means about half haven't continued their subscription. Means perhaps about 100,000 current players of which not all will be online at the same time. Just because it's designed as an MMO doesn't mean it deserves the title.
Like I say how you can use the word Massively, when you get more players online in a simple multiplayer game I don't know. Just because there is a persistent world being hosted - you should have a minimum number of players to use the word Massively. WoW is an MMO with 10 million subs. But there is a universe of difference between 100,000 and 10 million. Yeah I would say to be able to use the title of Massively you need an average of 500,000 players/subs.
I love when posters start making up their own definitions just to bash a game. It doesn't matter if the MMO has 100,000 or 10 million. It's still a MMO.
By your standard,, very few MMos on the market would qualify to be MMOs. I'm sure that will be news to the players that have been playing games like EVE for years to all of a sudden find out that all those people they were playing with for years wasn't in a MMO. Or how about UO, which even in it's best day never amassed 500,000 players?
Sorry, but your opinion is not the measuring stick by which companies or this site use to label a game MMORPG. Get off your high horse and just accept that not every game was meant to be liked by you.
Comments
Yeah, I agree with you. There's fantasy elements just like there are superhero elements, just like there are horror elements, and so on and so forth. Some mild cyberpunk elements too, now that I think of it.
I suspect the OP's motivations are something like this- if he can defend the position that this is a 'fantasy game', then he can defend the position that the game 'isn't original'. And that's the sense in which calling it a fantasy game is misleading. There's a difference between what a word means, and what people think when they hear a word. I suppose the OP is trying to insist upon one so he can exploit the other.
Role playing games have progression. There are different types of progression.
1) There is level based progression, you character starts at level one gains exp then progresses to level two.
2) There is skill based progression, you gain skill as you use them or as you gain exp.
3) There is item based progression. You progress by aquiring more powerful gear.
4) there is rep based progression. You gain rep with a faction which offers you benefist with the faction.
TSW does not have the first, Level based progression. It does have both skill based progression and Item based progression.
because there are vampires there, and they are real : /
Peace
Lascer
The 'level based progression' argument is exact the same as the 'fantasy' argument. People who want to say the game isn't original will streeeeeeeeeeeetch the technical definitions of 'level' or 'fantasy' until they can make the terminology fit, so they can in turn say "this is a fantasy game with level-based progression".
Play with words all you want. The fact, however phrased, is that the game's two most original features are the setting and the progression system. Saying otherwise isn't fooling anybody who is familiar with the game, and serves only to mislead those who aren't.
Yeah, I agree. It is sort of like arguing with a chick (No offense) Instead of hearing what you said and meant, they will latch on to one single word, twist it out of contect in the worst possible way, then claim you meant the opposite of what you really said.
Chicks, liberals, and strangers on the internet tend to argue that way because it's the easiest way to win without actually knowing what the hell you're talking about.
The game is not perfect, and FC is not reinventing the wheel here, but to me, playing a multitude of roles in one single toon, that is freedom from the conventional classes in MMOs. II don't have to log to get an alt that can fill the role my group needs, everything can be done on 1 single toon.
As for levels, gear level is very different from character levels. Ragnar and company promised a game with no character levels, and they actually delivered that. I can always put on a set of gear QL 3 and the starting zones are challenging again. or I can put on my QL10 gear and I can be overpowered in those same zones. Again, they are not reinventing the wheel, but they actually delivered a game with no character levels. It's kinda like what GW2 did with the downscaling, but I think TSW does it better providing options to play how you want to play the content, and to me, again, that is freedom, and they delivered on that promise.
Now you're free to express your opinion, and it's perfectly fine with me if you believe the game is not special, or if you think Ragnar is full of it, but to me, the less than stellar sales only prove the game is not popular, because the world that Ragnar delivered, again in my opinion, is a superbly crafted story-driven experience in a modern day setting, filled with mystery and supernatural stories, legends, and myths, and that makes the game very special indeed.
I waited many years for a game like this, and I am quite pleased to be a part of this world that Ragnar created, and yes, that includes bugs and issues, etc.
The game is not for everyone, and indeed might have a very limited audience, but for that small audience, intended or not, it truly is a gem of a game.
People, typically the fans, will trump the game an non-fantasy due to the setting to try to give the game more weight.
But the game is fantasy, making it a modern time setting does not make it non-fantasy. It has all the creatures of fantasy, it has swords, magic, all the properties of fantasy but is held in a modern setting. Want a non fantasy game? Look up EVE and Planet Side 2.
? TSW doesn't have levels or classes, at least not as you see them in most MMO's. In most other MMO's, when you selected to be a priest or pure healing class, you can't be a tank or AoE nuke, and not all the available skills ingame are free for you to choose from. Sure, there have been other MMO's that didn't have that class structure, where you could pick your own skills and build your own role, but all in all they've been a very slim minority: when you pick your class, you get your list of skills to pick from and that's it, other ones won't be available to you. Same with levels. TSW has a progression system, just like other MMO's that don't use character levels. But once again, MMO's without (character based) levels are very, very rare.
The hook in the game is the different setting that hasn't been done like that in MMO's yet, incl the atmosphere that provides its own richness to quests, exploring and dungeons. It's not everyone's thing, just like scifi in modern literature is far less mainstream than fantasy, or how a game like Amnesia, one of the better horror games, is still more niche than other mainstream horror games. So be it. I like it, that the MMO scene has come to offer more variety in themes and setups than it did in former years.Been discussed over and over again, TSW may not have traditional levels or classes but it does contain both in a different guise depending on how you look at it overall. Certainly what Funcom produced in this area was certainly not worth the wait.
If the hook is the genre, then why pick a genre that has such a niche following. Don't they want their game to do well? If the only hook is the genre, pick something that has a bigger following like mainstream fantasy. It kind of makes no sense in this instance to rely on genre as the hook. What it needed was a game mechanic that would draw people to play the game and ignore the genre. Half the problem with TSW is the genre not being appealing to many people apart from Tornquist and a few chums.
It does sort of have cunningly designed levels
As has no doubt been said multiple times so far in this thread, it's urban fantasy.
There's a shed load of books in classed as urban fantasy these days, some of them are pretty good.
I don't have a problem if not all MMO's try to cater to the common denominator, BW tried that with SWTOR, others tried that to apply to the exact mainstream base that liked WoW mechanics or high fantasy, which is the reason the MMO field has grown far more stale than it was before. MMO's in the first years managed to be profitable with like 50-100k of subs and still delivered rich, entertaining MMO worlds. So no, I want MMO companies to not go for the mainstream settings and mechanics only. Horror/suspense themes/conspiracy like TSW has and Undead Labs' zombie MMO will have and World of Darkness, yes, please. If other MMO companies want to go for more user content generation tools, great, or for FFA PvP, nice although niche, or for more RP tooling and options or for hardcore crafting etc. A number of those ideas may not be 'mainstream', but the more diversity the better.A lot of them are really good. It doesn't seem like they've pulled from current urban fantasy novels though. Jim Butcher, Kelley Armstrong and Kim Harrison are all current urban fantasy authors with books going back at least 5 years. Mike Shevdon is a newer author, but same thing, urban fantasy (I'd recommend looking his 3 novels up, they are pretty good). TSW doesn't seem that familiar to me. I've read a boatload of H.P. Lovecraft, Stephen King and Dean R. Koontz as well, and I didn't get a familiar vibe there either.
Niche is fine...it makes sense to shoot for a specific audience, I'm just not sure the audience they've crafted this game for actually plays games. They watch the "Aliens Did It" guy on History Channel.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well, where does that leave ME, though? Sure, Funcom could have made yet another bullshit fantasy game with elves and orcs and crap, using the same leveling system as WoW and Star Wars and Everquest and a billion other games, but then I wouldn't play it because I'm tired of all that shit. So what's your point? I should encourage developers to make WoW over and over again until the goddamned stars burn out? I didn't like the original world of warcraft, why do I want anybody to make the 50,000th rip off of it? I don't work for Funcom, my motivation here is not "I hope Funcom succeeds as a company even if they do it by making crap I would never play."
As far as the progression system in the game being classes and levels once you 'scratch the surface', you're just incorrect. it's not much at all like a standard level/class progression system. You're just playing with words, like I talked about in previous posts.
This is why we end up with the same, Fantasy, elves and dwarves setting.
Generic MMO after Generic MMO.
Because ultimately Fallenlords is right, more player are like him and don't want something new or original.
So game companies don't try anything new, don't try to be original, just create the same old same old.
And people wonder why MMO's have gottens stagnant.
But there's a huge margin between "Successful enough to turn a decent profit" and "The next WoW". CCP knows this- Eve Online will never be as big as WoW and I'm sure they knew that from day one. Funcom seems to know it as well. There are plenty of developers making games they know won't be League of Legends. But for some reason, you have a vocal caste of gamer like Fallenlords insisting that it's ever game developers moral obligation to compete for the largest slice of the pie. Nevermind that it's not good business sense. They think it is.
Fantasy has many sub genres, this is true for every genre based medium. Horror, Dark Fantasy, Science Fiction (with it's own sub-genres; Zombie, Alien, Dystopian Future, etc.), Supernatural, High Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, etc... would be a very long list for them all. Essentially anything that is not true to the real world as we know it is Fantasy (Supernatural is questionable because some people believe it to be real). Even religous events (miracles) are defined as Fantasy from a purely scientific point of view.
Just about every industry split it into three smaller areas though; Sci-Fi, Horror and Fantasy. It's easier to market and easier for viewers to understand what to expect. The majority has adopted these genres as seperate now, regardless of whether or not the definitions of each blend into each other. It's how the world works and it works better for it, simple as that.
This is complete and utter nonsense. I think you simply don't like FC and bc you dislike them, you also dislike all of their games. The number of sales or what setting they use have absolutely nothing at all to do whether a game is an MMORPG or not. According to you, as good none of the first MMORPG's and over 90% of the current MMORPG's aren't MMO's, for a dumb reason like that their sales aren't over a million or bc the genre isn't high fantasy or mainstream scifi.This. When most people think of fantasy in MMOs, they aren't thinking of zombies. The setting is just one of many thinngs that makes TSW different from the rest.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft