Originally posted by Sroek A carebear is someone who doesn't enjoy competing with other players. They would rather have everyone cooperate and team up together to go fight stupid artificial intelligence.
You had better not be another horsas alt. You seem to have not been reading statements by other members, who have pointed out quite well what a carebear pretty much is. you likely also failed to read my descriptions. What is it you can possibly hope to gain through this "Harcore" play? What is it that makes you kind of people nag on and ON about carebears? Why cant you leave it be? There are over 4 billion people on this planet, each one plays how he/she wants to play a game. I love competing, but only when Id like to, and have ample time to learn and train. You are not hardcore. You are not leet. You are a gamer, just like everyone else here.
Go by this rule: No matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, there will ALWAYS be someone bigger, stronger, and better than you can ever be.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Originally posted by skelz This post was posted be a carebear. Whine whine cry cry, someone called me a carebear 3 years ago and im still hurt inside, waaa waaa im a carebear, get over it thanks
See that crap, that was posted by a angry 19 yr old. If you see one of these guys out in the world youll know it, cause they all have black trench coats, black jeans and lets not forget the slayer t-shirt. Very important...you see one of these guys, dont engage them in conversation. There nerdiness is infectious like the plague. My friend Jake learned this the hard way. Before talking to one of the trenchcoats he had a succesful business and had a nice little family. Shortly after conversing with the trenchies it was all downhill from there. Hes divorced now and lives in his mothers basement. He took his mmo-leetness obsession to a all time high when he had a special seat constructed that allowed him to "bio" and not even walk away from the computer. BE WARNED!!
nice way to generalize, keep it up
but anyways, to my take on this..... if you dont like like the game dont frickin play it! if you want to play a pvp game with full loot and griefing then do it! im willing to bet you will find plenty of people there, that share your same views on what a mmorpg should be. but if you are one of those idiots that bash people because they dont share the same intrests in a game as you do....grow up!
and for all you so called "hardcore" pvp'ers that think open pvp with full loot and no rules is the only way a true mmo should be, this is for you http://www.penisformula.com/
Originally posted by Shojin The problem with full open PVP is that it caters to those who put more hours either grinding or finding equipment. The majority of the population will always look down on open PVP simply because the player is too limited in the virtual world, everything is too predictable. In most cases you have set stats, or a set class... movement is static, skills are static and you are limited to the ammount of tactics and strategy you can come up with. Combine that with potential lag issues and the chance of losing all the items youve worked for simply because someone who had more luck then you, or spent more time killing easy monster AI comes and jumps you (perhaps with friends), it is easy to see the outcome. The thing that makes player versus player fun in console games and fps's alike is the fact that there is always a way to overcome a stronger enemy, if you devise a good enough strategy.. or perhaps use your surroundings (especially in fighting games). In MMO's its point and click, automated attack.. only can move foreward back left right (sometimes jump), everything about it is too limited to bring a satisfying PVP experience, this is why I am confused... all these "hardcore" pvpers claim that everyone is a carebear...yet they are looking for a Open PVP experience in an MMO, where the least ammount of strategy and skill is required. The first mmo to have combat like a fighting game, and a dynamic environment to use to the players advantage... that will be the MMO in which most will be satisfied with an open PVP environment. Untill then, all the "hardcore" pvpers should play fps's and console games.
You should keep an eye on Darkfall then. We all know what the promises of Developers are worth, but they're going into closed beta and from all accounts it's pretty much like that. I don't know the fps/character skill ratio.... but it's worth watching until they step on their crank.
Originally posted by Xhyron A 'true' carebear is a person who squeals like a pig when they are killed in a game that has elements(total or some) of open PvP and has things taken from them. Said pig then goes on a message board/in game piss fit with other pigs from their litter and has things like Trammel pushed onto players who are not as vocal as them, since the quiet majority are enjoying the game for what it is. Just because you like fighting AI or not having any risk from other players does not make you a 'carebear'. There are plenty of MMO's out there that cater to this playstyle, and more power to them. When you go and ruin a perfectly good MMO like Ultima Online by whining like a 16 year old girl getting laid for the first time because you got ganked/killed/murdered, THAT makes you a carebear.
-Xhyron
If a 'true' carebear is someone who doesn't like PvP and would rather PvE, then I haven't seen one yet, including myself. Although if the only players you can fight against are those with the attitude that fighting is the end-all be-all of online games, then I can understand why they don't feel like participating in that kind of gaming. If the hardcore PvP crowd would cut a little slack, maybe the 'carebears' as you call them wouldn't feel so inclined to try to change the game on their behalf. Could it be that it is the hardcore PvPers that ruin the game by being too hardcore?
Also keep in mind that a lot of the muggers out there go after characters that couldn't possibly defeat them and have almost zero chance of having anything the higher lvl character can use on them. Where's the sense in that?
the term carebear comes when players trying out pve games get frustrated there is no pvp content and therefore throw their toys out of the pram calling all pvers carebears seemingly forgetting the term "rpg" and its roots.
Originally posted by nomadian the term carebear comes when players trying out pve games get frustrated there is no pvp content and therefore throw their toys out of the pram calling all pvers carebears seemingly forgetting the term "rpg" and its roots.
That is directly the fault of the devs. Who's going to care about role-playing when the devs don't? SB has a back story, and the races have their enemies and allies. They've had it since day one and they're just NOW getting round to making a SINGLE server where any of that matters one little bit. What's up with that? Why even bother having a story? Games that have a story and enforce it are criticized by gamers who join with full knowledge of what the story means and find they can't do certain things (and this applies to PvErs as well as PvPers) I have no respect for anyone who joins a game and discovers to their dismay that it is everything is as advertised. I also get upset when games like SB advertise that their game is all about building your empire and they play up this rich storyline and tell you so much about the races, then when you get inside the game you find out it's all pretty much cosmetic and doesn't matter. That's half the problem right there. If we knew what we were getting into from the beginning, it would be harder for players with diametrically opposed gaming styles to end up in the same game, and there wouldn't be so much conflict. Now if a game comes along that IS role-playing and enforces the lore, even those who don't like that kind of game will play because "Hey, it never mattered before" and they'll find the game sucks for them and we'll be right back to this argument. You wouldn't believe how many people said that SB would be destroyed if there was a lore server. For trying to turn a role-playing game into a true role-playing game (which didn't really happen but thats another story) it would ruin it?
Devs are just beginning to get the message that the PvE and PvP crowds are different, but there's a lot more in-between gamers who are getting missed. Expect it to get better in the next generation of games, but not much.
Personally, I want a game that is like real life in one respect; you can kill anything you want, but there are consequences.
A carebear is someone who like PvE over PvP. Also someone who does not like pvp at all or does not particapate in pvp at all. People that have no lives, friends, or sex in there life make fun of these people cause they wont particapate in there game of ganking(aka being assholes).
If a 'true' carebear is someone who doesn't like PvP and would rather PvE, then I haven't seen one yet, including myself. Although if the only players you can fight against are those with the attitude that fighting is the end-all be-all of online games, then I can understand why they don't feel like participating in that kind of gaming. If the hardcore PvP crowd would cut a little slack, maybe the 'carebears' as you call them wouldn't feel so inclined to try to change the game on their behalf. Could it be that it is the hardcore PvPers that ruin the game by being too hardcore? Also keep in mind that a lot of the muggers out there go after characters that couldn't possibly defeat them and have almost zero chance of having anything the higher lvl character can use on them. Where's the sense in that?
Let me ask you this. What is the point of having PvP if the victor gets absolutely ZERO spoils for winning? World of Warcraft PvP is a perfect example of this and why the game gets so boring after a few months. PvP rank is a total crock and zone control is non-existant.
When you go into a dungeon and the game is full PvP, you should expect danger from anyone or anything in said dungeon. If you go into a dungeon alone and get gang banged by murderers, virtual rapists, muggers or what have you, than it was your fault for going there alone. Safety in numbers; make some friends then go out and have fun. Seems these gang bangers and antisocial people made enough friends to gank you, how come you don't have any to help you fight back? Maybe they aren't in fact the antisocial ones.
Most of the so called 'hardcore PvPers' came from old school UO and are still dismayed at what became of a game that gave you the ability to live out your virtual life the way you see fit. No game since then has granted players total freedom to do what they see fit. Unfortunately, the only one that did was ruined by retards on a ritalen bender going off on people that didn't play the game the way THEY wanted it played.
Originally posted by Xhyron Originally posted by swordsbane If a 'true' carebear is someone who doesn't like PvP and would rather PvE, then I haven't seen one yet, including myself. Although if the only players you can fight against are those with the attitude that fighting is the end-all be-all of online games, then I can understand why they don't feel like participating in that kind of gaming. If the hardcore PvP crowd would cut a little slack, maybe the 'carebears' as you call them wouldn't feel so inclined to try to change the game on their behalf. Could it be that it is the hardcore PvPers that ruin the game by being too hardcore? Also keep in mind that a lot of the muggers out there go after characters that couldn't possibly defeat them and have almost zero chance of having anything the higher lvl character can use on them. Where's the sense in that? Let me ask you this. What is the point of having PvP if the victor gets absolutely ZERO spoils for winning? World of Warcraft PvP is a perfect example of this and why the game gets so boring after a few months. PvP rank is a total crock and zone control is non-existant. When you go into a dungeon and the game is full PvP, you should expect danger from anyone or anything in said dungeon. If you go into a dungeon alone and get gang banged by murderers, virtual rapists, muggers or what have you, than it was your fault for going there alone. Safety in numbers; make some friends then go out and have fun. Seems these gang bangers and antisocial people made enough friends to gank you, how come you don't have any to help you fight back? Maybe they aren't in fact the antisocial ones. Most of the so called 'hardcore PvPers' came from old school UO and are still dismayed at what became of a game that gave you the ability to live out your virtual life the way you see fit. No game since then has granted players total freedom to do what they see fit. Unfortunately, the only one that did was ruined by retards on a ritalen bender going off on people that didn't play the game the way THEY wanted it played.
-Xhyron
I dont see how adding a non pvp zone ruined UO. I think it helped it. Now no one will get pked by gankers. Or be pked by a GM mage or whatever. Allow people who wanna pvp/pk have there own spot and the same for people who do not wanna pvp.
From a role play perspective this works out to.
BTW, I hate people who say added Tram to UO ruined it. I HATE YOU FOR IT.
Originally posted by Xhyron Let me ask you this. What is the point of having PvP if the victor gets absolutely ZERO spoils for winning? World of Warcraft PvP is a perfect example of this and why the game gets so boring after a few months. PvP rank is a total crock and zone control is non-existant. When you go into a dungeon and the game is full PvP, you should expect danger from anyone or anything in said dungeon. If you go into a dungeon alone and get gang banged by murderers, virtual rapists, muggers or what have you, than it was your fault for going there alone. Safety in numbers; make some friends then go out and have fun. Seems these gang bangers and antisocial people made enough friends to gank you, how come you don't have any to help you fight back? Maybe they aren't in fact the antisocial ones. Most of the so called 'hardcore PvPers' came from old school UO and are still dismayed at what became of a game that gave you the ability to live out your virtual life the way you see fit. No game since then has granted players total freedom to do what they see fit. Unfortunately, the only one that did was ruined by retards on a ritalen bender going off on people that didn't play the game the way THEY wanted it played.
-Xhyron
You don't get any 'spoils' in SB for ganking a newbie. You get a few crumbs of gp, nothing items and ONE xp, but people do it. They do it and they're proud of it and they claim they have fun doing it. I don't get it, but I don't want to tell them they can't. I DO want there to be sensible consequences for behaving that way. NPCs will begin to not like you, guards will eventually attack you without waiting to see if you do anything wrong. If you want to continue to do such things you will have to segregate yourself from the rest of society in places that are hard to find, bases of operation you can strike out from, just like RL bandits did. Those bandits were successful, and it should be possible for you do be successful in online games too. You can call it GOOD vs BAD or group A vs group B, or whatever, but you can't have bandits walking around in towns where their victims frequent, and if your victims attack you, the guards should help them not you, unless you have some method of disguise in the game, and with it, the possibility of discovery. Muggers and gankers have either been shut out (by all PvE games) or get a free ride (as in SB) I call that broken.
Make it make sense and you can do all the ganking you want to and I'll defend your right to do it, but the games out now either do PvP wrong or don't do it at all, and the players are left ill-equipped to fix the problem themselves. That is unacceptable, or at least it should be. I'll keep complaining and telling everyone that it IS wrong until someone listens, because that's the only way things ever change, if they do.
You don't get any 'spoils' in SB for ganking a newbie. You get a few crumbs of gp, nothing items and ONE xp, but people do it. They do it and they're proud of it and they claim they have fun doing it. I don't get it, but I don't want to tell them they can't. I DO want there to be sensible consequences for behaving that way. NPCs will begin to not like you, guards will eventually attack you without waiting to see if you do anything wrong. If you want to continue to do such things you will have to segregate yourself from the rest of society in places that are hard to find, bases of operation you can strike out from, just like RL bandits did. Those bandits were successful, and it should be possible for you do be successful in online games too. You can call it GOOD vs BAD or group A vs group B, or whatever, but you can't have bandits walking around in towns where their victims frequent, and if your victims attack you, the guards should help them not you, unless you have some method of disguise in the game, and with it, the possibility of discovery. Muggers and gankers have either been shut out (by all PvE games) or get a free ride (as in SB) I call that broken. Make it make sense and you can do all the ganking you want to and I'll defend your right to do it, but the games out now either do PvP wrong or don't do it at all, and the players are left ill-equipped to fix the problem themselves. That is unacceptable, or at least it should be. I'll keep complaining and telling everyone that it IS wrong until someone listens, because that's the only way things ever change, if they do.
Quoted for emphasis.
Those defending the "carebear" namecalling keep talking about risks some people are not willing to take. On the other side you as the pure die hard PvP'er shouldn't have a risk ? There's no risk in ganking low lvls, no skill, it's just a matter of criminal activity you can not take out in real life because of the consequences. The day devs realize that there is a need to be able to be a criminal in game, thus tending to the crowd of now said "griefers", is the day we might see actual punishments programmed in for criminals and the day you can stop whining about it. In order to better define it : "A risk in killing someone that's more then 10 lvls weaker then you". That however would be a new concept in mmorpg's...
Yah in game penalties are the only way to stop griefing whilst retaining the extra edge that Pking undoubtedly brings.
In a few games i have played the PKing has been alot of fun and kept in check with a few safeguards. For starters a minimum level i.e. you have to be lvl 10 before you can be killed, and different areas, some areas were safe zones, some pk zones, and you needed to go through both and just be careful in the pk zones!
Further to this PKers got a red name which was kind of cool to get BUT you could be pk'd by anyone at anytime, even in a safezone where they couldnt fight back! Also, higher level players would step in if some of the Pkers were getting out of line.
Its about a balance I reckon Pking is fun, if Im killed oh well ill be more careful in future and the rush of killing a player about as good as you after provocation is great, but there are some idiots who will camp out in newb training areas and pk for absolutely no point whatsoever.
Originally posted by faselei Yah in game penalties are the only way to stop griefing whilst retaining the extra edge that Pking undoubtedly brings. In a few games i have played the PKing has been alot of fun and kept in check with a few safeguards. For starters a minimum level i.e. you have to be lvl 10 before you can be killed, and different areas, some areas were safe zones, some pk zones, and you needed to go through both and just be careful in the pk zones! Further to this PKers got a red name which was kind of cool to get BUT you could be pk'd by anyone at anytime, even in a safezone where they couldnt fight back! Also, higher level players would step in if some of the Pkers were getting out of line. Its about a balance I reckon Pking is fun, if Im killed oh well ill be more careful in future and the rush of killing a player about as good as you after provocation is great, but there are some idiots who will camp out in newb training areas and pk for absolutely no point whatsoever.
No, I'm not in favor of restricting PvP, even to the point of a maximum lvl difference. Killing a player who is lvl1 and minding their own business should carry the same restriction (ie, none) as killing a Lvl90000 who's minding their own business. The consequences should also be the same. A murder is a murder is a murder. If you're going to play at being in a virtual civilization, that civilization isn't going to say "Well, he's powerful enough that we don't have to uphold the law if he's ambushed and killed. No, if there are guards, those guards protect the population. If that population includes players (of any level) then they will try to protect the players. THAT's how you include the dynamic without it getting out of control.
AND you make those consequences reach beyond the incident itself, so that that player will find himself unwanted when he comes back to the settlement he is preying on.
1)No skill gain or xp from kill for 2 hours 2)50% less drop rate 3)50% less xp or skill gain for 2 hours after you can start gaining xp or skills again.
Originally posted by DarkHeart2 I can think of some good pk penaltys. 1)No skill gain or xp from kill for 2 hours 2)50% less drop rate 3)50% less xp or skill gain for 2 hours after you can start gaining xp or skills again.
Yeah, punish someone because they want to PK. How about we punish people that only kill AI?
Once again, I will go back to old school UO. If a PK killed you, they took your stuff. If you killed a PK you took their stuff. If a PK was lucky enough to kill someone that has been hunting for a while and hasn't visiting town or their house for a loot drop, they got a pretty good purse. Same went for an APK who happened to kill a PK that had been hunting for a while without doing a loot drop.
That seemed pretty fair to me and I played both sides of the fence.
Originally posted by DarkHeart2 I can think of some good pk penaltys. 1)No skill gain or xp from kill for 2 hours 2)50% less drop rate 3)50% less xp or skill gain for 2 hours after you can start gaining xp or skills again.
Yeah, punish someone because they want to PK. How about we punish people that only kill AI?
Once again, I will go back to old school UO. If a PK killed you, they took your stuff. If you killed a PK you took their stuff. If a PK was lucky enough to kill someone that has been hunting for a while and hasn't visiting town or their house for a loot drop, they got a pretty good purse. Same went for an APK who happened to kill a PK that had been hunting for a while without doing a loot drop.
That seemed pretty fair to me and I played both sides of the fence.
-Xhyron
you dont get it, do you? Person minds there buisiness, wants to PK in the future with soem more skills, Person B (Griefer) comes along and kills Person A. Person A loses everything they worked for to that point. Repeat 3-6 times. Person A leaves the game, spreading his experience on how Open PvP made his experience suck. Game crashes finicially, Devs create restriced PvP to prevent this happening again. An open pvp game will always fail, becuase its too noob-unfriendly.
Now, comprehend this, people play a game usually becuase theres the promise of going against other players when they are stronger, not to be killed by a high level PKer who wants to kill them for laughs. This is why UO fell and why there will never be another game like it, it limits future customers and chokes the cash flow. Yes, punish a PKer who killed someone who didnt want to PK. Read before you type, as it looks like you skimmed through his post.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
you dont get it, do you? Person minds there buisiness, wants to PK in the future with soem more skills, Person B (Griefer) comes along and kills Person A. Person A loses everything they worked for to that point. Repeat 3-6 times. Person A leaves the game, spreading his experience on how Open PvP made his experience suck. Game crashes finicially, Devs create restriced PvP to prevent this happening again. An open pvp game will always fail, becuase its too noob-unfriendly. Now, comprehend this, people play a game usually becuase theres the promise of going against other players when they are stronger, not to be killed by a high level PKer who wants to kill them for laughs. This is why UO fell and why there will never be another game like it, it limits future customers and chokes the cash flow. Yes, punish a PKer who killed someone who didnt want to PK. Read before you type, as it looks like you skimmed through his post.
You must be blind or inept. Maybe both. Did you ever actually PLAY UO or are you talking out of your ass? There were plenty of ways to GM 5 to 7 skills, turn yourself into a killing machine, and basically put yourself in no danger at all. If you would like me to post it step by step, I would be more than happy to, since you seem to be slow. So don't talk about this person A/person B BS scenario like this is Shadowbane PvP.
Level based games with open PvP will almost certainly fail, due to the fact that a very small, very fat and very social life lacking minority will always be the first to max out their level and to impose their will on the other players on the server. This does in turn make many people lose interest in the game and quit.
About 'why UO fell', you must be talking about the inception of Trammel. Indeed, Trammel was the fall of the game. Because of a vocal whining minority.
Since none of my words (and it seems those of others) are penatrating that brick you call a head, I will say this simply.
The absolute only game that seems to have pulled open PvP off is Eve Online, and people can still choose not to. It does not matter if a game is level or skilled based, if you can kill a player anywhere, anytime, with any reason or provocation, the game will always be restricted to those who got the game first, and it will fall. Ive heard from pretty much everyone who played UO that it was a horrible game due to Griefers. Of course, you can continue to call use carebears for not accepting your one absolute idea, but we'll just start getting apathetic anyway.
And no, I never did play UO, but ive played through enough of your open pvp games to know they are crap, unless in some way restricted.
And please stop flaming and/or insulting, your just making yourself look stupid.
And yes, celebrate, this is turning into another flame war, so ill resign.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Originally posted by Gamewize Since none of my words (and it seems those of others) are penatrating that brick you call a head, I will say this simply. The absolute only game that seems to have pulled open PvP off is Eve Online, and people can still choose not to. It does not matter if a game is level or skilled based, if you can kill a player anywhere, anytime, with any reason or provocation, the game will always be restricted to those who got the game first, and it will fall. Ive heard from pretty much everyone who played UO that it was a horrible game due to Griefers. Of course, you can continue to call use carebears for not accepting your one absolute idea, but we'll just start getting apathetic anyway. And no, I never did play UO, but ive played through enough of your open pvp games to know they are crap, unless in some way restricted. And please stop flaming and/or insulting, your just making yourself look stupid. And yes, celebrate, this is turning into another flame war, so ill resign.
"And no, I never did play UO, but ive played through enough of your open pvp games to know they are crap, unless in some way restricted."
Funny... Not only do you fling meager insults and have never played the game which you are trying to hold a discussion about, but you also try to put words in my mouth. I never insulted anyone, nor knocked their style of play or the games they like to play. I called you inept because you obviously are. I have played only one true open PvP game, so once again, stop making ASSumptions about what I do or do not play. I did knock Trammies for ruining a game I love and I was well within my rights. So please, get out of this thread before you make a bigger fool out of yourself. It helps to have at least basic knowledge of the game you are trying to discuss(which you admit to not having). Try reading this entire thread before jumping in on the last page with your ignorant ASSumptions and asinine chatter.
"And please stop flaming and/or insulting, your just making yourself look stupid."
Please, take your own advice. It seems you are the only one who needs it.
why do you guys even argue this? its not like your going to convince the other to share the same opinon as you. either you like full pvp and loot or you dont, if you play a game with rules like that you better expect to be griefed plain and simple. but me personally i think darkfall's method of handling griefers is great. i just think imho a pvp game with full loot with no penilty's for griefing will only keep the griefers happy. why shouldnt there be a penelty for murdering somone? and why should there be one for killing AI? especially if its a quest or a enemy of your faction? just my opinions on this matter and nothing more
Originally posted by angerr why do you guys even argue this? its not like your going to convince the other to share the same opinon as you. either you like full pvp and loot or you dont, if you play a game with rules like that you better expect to be griefed plain and simple. but me personally i think darkfall's method of handling griefers is great. i just think imho a pvp game with full loot with no penilty's for griefing will only keep the griefers happy. why shouldnt there be a penelty for murdering somone? and why should there be one for killing AI? especially if its a quest or a enemy of your faction? just my opinions on this matter and nothing more
Of course you need some type of penalty if you plan on being a villian. You should not be allowed to kill another player with no penalty unless the game is geared towards racial hatred and requires it. If I as a High Elf kill a Dark Elf, I sure as hell better not receive any type of penalty for it.
UO had PK penalties by making your character unable to enter any major city without being insta-killed by guards. You were an outcast, forced to live in the woods. When people started making alts to buy things for their PK's and negate the not being allowed in town penalty, they included skill loss into the equation, which was harsh, but still worked.
Comments
[quote]Originally posted by logangregor
[b]
lets not forget the slayer t-shirt.
You leave Slayer out of this! Slayer is a good band.
You had better not be another horsas alt. You seem to have not been reading statements by other members, who have pointed out quite well what a carebear pretty much is. you likely also failed to read my descriptions. What is it you can possibly hope to gain through this "Harcore" play? What is it that makes you kind of people nag on and ON about carebears? Why cant you leave it be? There are over 4 billion people on this planet, each one plays how he/she wants to play a game. I love competing, but only when Id like to, and have ample time to learn and train. You are not hardcore. You are not leet. You are a gamer, just like everyone else here.
Go by this rule: No matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, there will ALWAYS be someone bigger, stronger, and better than you can ever be.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Ignore, server hiccuped.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
nice way to generalize, keep it up
but anyways, to my take on this..... if you dont like like the game dont frickin play it! if you want to play a pvp game with full loot and griefing then do it! im willing to bet you will find plenty of people there, that share your same views on what a mmorpg should be. but if you are one of those idiots that bash people because they dont share the same intrests in a game as you do....grow up!
and for all you so called "hardcore" pvp'ers that think open pvp with full loot and no rules is the only way a true mmo should be, this is for you http://www.penisformula.com/
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
If a 'true' carebear is someone who doesn't like PvP and would rather PvE, then I haven't seen one yet, including myself. Although if the only players you can fight against are those with the attitude that fighting is the end-all be-all of online games, then I can understand why they don't feel like participating in that kind of gaming. If the hardcore PvP crowd would cut a little slack, maybe the 'carebears' as you call them wouldn't feel so inclined to try to change the game on their behalf. Could it be that it is the hardcore PvPers that ruin the game by being too hardcore?
Also keep in mind that a lot of the muggers out there go after characters that couldn't possibly defeat them and have almost zero chance of having anything the higher lvl character can use on them. Where's the sense in that?
the term carebear comes when players trying out pve games get frustrated there is no pvp content and therefore throw their toys out of the pram calling all pvers carebears seemingly forgetting the term "rpg" and its roots.
That is directly the fault of the devs. Who's going to care about role-playing when the devs don't? SB has a back story, and the races have their enemies and allies. They've had it since day one and they're just NOW getting round to making a SINGLE server where any of that matters one little bit. What's up with that? Why even bother having a story? Games that have a story and enforce it are criticized by gamers who join with full knowledge of what the story means and find they can't do certain things (and this applies to PvErs as well as PvPers) I have no respect for anyone who joins a game and discovers to their dismay that it is everything is as advertised. I also get upset when games like SB advertise that their game is all about building your empire and they play up this rich storyline and tell you so much about the races, then when you get inside the game you find out it's all pretty much cosmetic and doesn't matter. That's half the problem right there. If we knew what we were getting into from the beginning, it would be harder for players with diametrically opposed gaming styles to end up in the same game, and there wouldn't be so much conflict. Now if a game comes along that IS role-playing and enforces the lore, even those who don't like that kind of game will play because "Hey, it never mattered before" and they'll find the game sucks for them and we'll be right back to this argument. You wouldn't believe how many people said that SB would be destroyed if there was a lore server. For trying to turn a role-playing game into a true role-playing game (which didn't really happen but thats another story) it would ruin it?
Devs are just beginning to get the message that the PvE and PvP crowds are different, but there's a lot more in-between gamers who are getting missed. Expect it to get better in the next generation of games, but not much.
Personally, I want a game that is like real life in one respect; you can kill anything you want, but there are consequences.
A carebear is someone who like PvE over PvP. Also someone who does not like pvp at all or does not particapate in pvp at all. People that have no lives, friends, or sex in there life make fun of these people cause they wont particapate in there game of ganking(aka being assholes).
RF Online|LostGrace-3x Cora Caster-Spirit Server-Active
Lineage 2|LostGrace-4x Elemental Summoner-Gustin Server-Deactivated, Kiltor-3x Elven Oracle-Gustin Server-Baned T_T
Let me ask you this. What is the point of having PvP if the victor gets absolutely ZERO spoils for winning? World of Warcraft PvP is a perfect example of this and why the game gets so boring after a few months. PvP rank is a total crock and zone control is non-existant.
When you go into a dungeon and the game is full PvP, you should expect danger from anyone or anything in said dungeon. If you go into a dungeon alone and get gang banged by murderers, virtual rapists, muggers or what have you, than it was your fault for going there alone. Safety in numbers; make some friends then go out and have fun. Seems these gang bangers and antisocial people made enough friends to gank you, how come you don't have any to help you fight back? Maybe they aren't in fact the antisocial ones.
Most of the so called 'hardcore PvPers' came from old school UO and are still dismayed at what became of a game that gave you the ability to live out your virtual life the way you see fit. No game since then has granted players total freedom to do what they see fit. Unfortunately, the only one that did was ruined by retards on a ritalen bender going off on people that didn't play the game the way THEY wanted it played.
-Xhyron
I dont see how adding a non pvp zone ruined UO. I think it helped it. Now no one will get pked by gankers. Or be pked by a GM mage or whatever. Allow people who wanna pvp/pk have there own spot and the same for people who do not wanna pvp.
From a role play perspective this works out to.
BTW, I hate people who say added Tram to UO ruined it. I HATE YOU FOR IT.
RF Online|LostGrace-3x Cora Caster-Spirit Server-Active
Lineage 2|LostGrace-4x Elemental Summoner-Gustin Server-Deactivated, Kiltor-3x Elven Oracle-Gustin Server-Baned T_T
You don't get any 'spoils' in SB for ganking a newbie. You get a few crumbs of gp, nothing items and ONE xp, but people do it. They do it and they're proud of it and they claim they have fun doing it. I don't get it, but I don't want to tell them they can't. I DO want there to be sensible consequences for behaving that way. NPCs will begin to not like you, guards will eventually attack you without waiting to see if you do anything wrong. If you want to continue to do such things you will have to segregate yourself from the rest of society in places that are hard to find, bases of operation you can strike out from, just like RL bandits did. Those bandits were successful, and it should be possible for you do be successful in online games too. You can call it GOOD vs BAD or group A vs group B, or whatever, but you can't have bandits walking around in towns where their victims frequent, and if your victims attack you, the guards should help them not you, unless you have some method of disguise in the game, and with it, the possibility of discovery. Muggers and gankers have either been shut out (by all PvE games) or get a free ride (as in SB) I call that broken.
Make it make sense and you can do all the ganking you want to and I'll defend your right to do it, but the games out now either do PvP wrong or don't do it at all, and the players are left ill-equipped to fix the problem themselves. That is unacceptable, or at least it should be. I'll keep complaining and telling everyone that it IS wrong until someone listens, because that's the only way things ever change, if they do.
Quoted for emphasis.
Those defending the "carebear" namecalling keep talking about risks some people are not willing to take. On the other side you as the pure die hard PvP'er shouldn't have a risk ? There's no risk in ganking low lvls, no skill, it's just a matter of criminal activity you can not take out in real life because of the consequences. The day devs realize that there is a need to be able to be a criminal in game, thus tending to the crowd of now said "griefers", is the day we might see actual punishments programmed in for criminals and the day you can stop whining about it. In order to better define it : "A risk in killing someone that's more then 10 lvls weaker then you". That however would be a new concept in mmorpg's...
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Yah in game penalties are the only way to stop griefing whilst retaining the extra edge that Pking undoubtedly brings.
In a few games i have played the PKing has been alot of fun and kept in check with a few safeguards. For starters a minimum level i.e. you have to be lvl 10 before you can be killed, and different areas, some areas were safe zones, some pk zones, and you needed to go through both and just be careful in the pk zones!
Further to this PKers got a red name which was kind of cool to get BUT you could be pk'd by anyone at anytime, even in a safezone where they couldnt fight back! Also, higher level players would step in if some of the Pkers were getting out of line.
Its about a balance I reckon Pking is fun, if Im killed oh well ill be more careful in future and the rush of killing a player about as good as you after provocation is great, but there are some idiots who will camp out in newb training areas and pk for absolutely no point whatsoever.
No, I'm not in favor of restricting PvP, even to the point of a maximum lvl difference. Killing a player who is lvl1 and minding their own business should carry the same restriction (ie, none) as killing a Lvl90000 who's minding their own business. The consequences should also be the same. A murder is a murder is a murder. If you're going to play at being in a virtual civilization, that civilization isn't going to say "Well, he's powerful enough that we don't have to uphold the law if he's ambushed and killed. No, if there are guards, those guards protect the population. If that population includes players (of any level) then they will try to protect the players. THAT's how you include the dynamic without it getting out of control.
AND you make those consequences reach beyond the incident itself, so that that player will find himself unwanted when he comes back to the settlement he is preying on.
I can think of some good pk penaltys.
1)No skill gain or xp from kill for 2 hours
2)50% less drop rate
3)50% less xp or skill gain for 2 hours after you can start gaining xp or skills again.
RF Online|LostGrace-3x Cora Caster-Spirit Server-Active
Lineage 2|LostGrace-4x Elemental Summoner-Gustin Server-Deactivated, Kiltor-3x Elven Oracle-Gustin Server-Baned T_T
Yeah, punish someone because they want to PK. How about we punish people that only kill AI?
Once again, I will go back to old school UO. If a PK killed you, they took your stuff. If you killed a PK you took their stuff. If a PK was lucky enough to kill someone that has been hunting for a while and hasn't visiting town or their house for a loot drop, they got a pretty good purse. Same went for an APK who happened to kill a PK that had been hunting for a while without doing a loot drop.
That seemed pretty fair to me and I played both sides of the fence.
-Xhyron
Yeah, punish someone because they want to PK. How about we punish people that only kill AI?
Once again, I will go back to old school UO. If a PK killed you, they took your stuff. If you killed a PK you took their stuff. If a PK was lucky enough to kill someone that has been hunting for a while and hasn't visiting town or their house for a loot drop, they got a pretty good purse. Same went for an APK who happened to kill a PK that had been hunting for a while without doing a loot drop.
That seemed pretty fair to me and I played both sides of the fence.
-Xhyron
you dont get it, do you? Person minds there buisiness, wants to PK in the future with soem more skills, Person B (Griefer) comes along and kills Person A. Person A loses everything they worked for to that point. Repeat 3-6 times. Person A leaves the game, spreading his experience on how Open PvP made his experience suck. Game crashes finicially, Devs create restriced PvP to prevent this happening again. An open pvp game will always fail, becuase its too noob-unfriendly.
Now, comprehend this, people play a game usually becuase theres the promise of going against other players when they are stronger, not to be killed by a high level PKer who wants to kill them for laughs. This is why UO fell and why there will never be another game like it, it limits future customers and chokes the cash flow. Yes, punish a PKer who killed someone who didnt want to PK. Read before you type, as it looks like you skimmed through his post.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
You must be blind or inept. Maybe both. Did you ever actually PLAY UO or are you talking out of your ass? There were plenty of ways to GM 5 to 7 skills, turn yourself into a killing machine, and basically put yourself in no danger at all. If you would like me to post it step by step, I would be more than happy to, since you seem to be slow. So don't talk about this person A/person B BS scenario like this is Shadowbane PvP.
Level based games with open PvP will almost certainly fail, due to the fact that a very small, very fat and very social life lacking minority will always be the first to max out their level and to impose their will on the other players on the server. This does in turn make many people lose interest in the game and quit.
About 'why UO fell', you must be talking about the inception of Trammel. Indeed, Trammel was the fall of the game. Because of a vocal whining minority.
-Xhyron
Since none of my words (and it seems those of others) are penatrating that brick you call a head, I will say this simply.
The absolute only game that seems to have pulled open PvP off is Eve Online, and people can still choose not to. It does not matter if a game is level or skilled based, if you can kill a player anywhere, anytime, with any reason or provocation, the game will always be restricted to those who got the game first, and it will fall. Ive heard from pretty much everyone who played UO that it was a horrible game due to Griefers. Of course, you can continue to call use carebears for not accepting your one absolute idea, but we'll just start getting apathetic anyway.
And no, I never did play UO, but ive played through enough of your open pvp games to know they are crap, unless in some way restricted.
And please stop flaming and/or insulting, your just making yourself look stupid.
And yes, celebrate, this is turning into another flame war, so ill resign.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
"And no, I never did play UO, but ive played through enough of your open pvp games to know they are crap, unless in some way restricted."
Funny... Not only do you fling meager insults and have never played the game which you are trying to hold a discussion about, but you also try to put words in my mouth. I never insulted anyone, nor knocked their style of play or the games they like to play. I called you inept because you obviously are. I have played only one true open PvP game, so once again, stop making ASSumptions about what I do or do not play. I did knock Trammies for ruining a game I love and I was well within my rights. So please, get out of this thread before you make a bigger fool out of yourself. It helps to have at least basic knowledge of the game you are trying to discuss(which you admit to not having). Try reading this entire thread before jumping in on the last page with your ignorant ASSumptions and asinine chatter.
"And please stop flaming and/or insulting, your just making yourself look stupid."
Please, take your own advice. It seems you are the only one who needs it.
-Xhyron
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Of course you need some type of penalty if you plan on being a villian. You should not be allowed to kill another player with no penalty unless the game is geared towards racial hatred and requires it. If I as a High Elf kill a Dark Elf, I sure as hell better not receive any type of penalty for it.
UO had PK penalties by making your character unable to enter any major city without being insta-killed by guards. You were an outcast, forced to live in the woods. When people started making alts to buy things for their PK's and negate the not being allowed in town penalty, they included skill loss into the equation, which was harsh, but still worked.
-Xhyron
Carebears are people who gets virtually rich without risking the loss of valuables.
People who prey on carebears as a source of items start to form groups.
Propaganda showing Carebears as light-hearted happy people and PKers as the ones leading the tougher side of life are created.
People get affected by the propaganda.
Affected people starts to post topics criticising Carebears and showing all sorts of prejudice.
Then I read it and think that PKers don't know the word tough because they never faced me in Unreal Tournament 2004!!