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Why i'm not impressed with WVW and how it could be better
MMOwanderer
Member Posts: 415
No, i'm not trying to troll and hate or anything. Honestly, after all these wvw thread mostly being about owpvp, i decided to give my overall opinion on wvwvw and why i'm not overall impressed, what could have and could be made to improve. Please keep in mind that if i am incorrect in a factual way about something, please correct me so as to not spread misinformation. But also remember my post in mostly opinion based, after some play time in it, aswell as alot of research and video watching.
So, hopefully without causing to many agressive flames:
1- The Boarderlands: My biggest complaint here is simply the fact that they are copied. I'm actually suprised so many are okay with this. Anet themselves said in a trailer that the battle was across 4 huge maps, when in reality they took the easy road. To me, this is the same placing a dungeon which is 95% the same with 3 different final bosses and a dev calling it 3 unique dungeons. It also makes running around the Boarderlands more tiresome, since the controll points are necessary, one must travel across the same exact landscape. It also makes me wonder if Anet is even dedicated to WVW
2- The keep distance in the Eternal Battlegrounds: To go from you main base, to the closest keep, to a tower and finally a camp, it only takes 2 minutes. 
Watch Mike's video in the begining and time. The reason why this annoys me somewhat is because you're sieging a keep and you're enemy respawns right next to you in the tower or base, which is less than 1 minute away. I actually find the Boarderlands to be a much better and well designed map.
But, these 2 are minor things (well, 2 is atleast)
The main problem is that i find WVW to be overlly shallow in the end. Before you go berserk on me, i'll try to be as clear as possible in explaining myself. Also, i'm not hating the game at all, since i do like, and i do think wvw is also amazing in many other points. The reason i feel it's shallow is because the overall "strategy" can be summed up in 2 points.
3- Supply: The idea of using supply is great, but i think there are problems.
First, the camps are static, meaning you can't collect resources in different ways. There's no "pvp crafting and nodes" systems, you can't build camps in different resoucce points, nothing. They are always in 1 place.
Second, the resource is universal. There's no different types. If, for example, there was stone and wood, it would add more depth and controlling different zones would be crucial. But, there is only a single resource type to manage.
Finally, the Dolyak. The problem isn't so much the speed, which is also a little minus, but their predictability. Anet's idea was to probably create a "resource route", which is great, but, the game does not allow you to map out a different route. So, it's almost guarenteed that after launch, all the different paths will be posted online, and intercepting a caravan will be easy. If one could carry the supply himself (from the camp, not keep), we could avoid blockades.
In conclusion of this, i find the Supply system to be a good idea on paper, but not will excuted and diverse enough. 1 dimensional. This is half of what WVW mostly consists off, while, of course, after obtaining the resources, all that's left is
4- Sieges: The variety of siege weapons is awesome, really. Some are defensive, some player offensive, some destroy walls, gates, restore and strenghten walls, etc. Now, all of this is nice, but i find the problem not in the weapons, but the keeps themselves, and their responding strategy,
Honestly, when you take a close look at it, towers, keeps, and castle Stonemist are almost the exact same. The only main different is that towers don't have inner walls and gates. But there lie the problems, since that's all there is.
The startegy of all keepsis to take down a wall or gate, and follow up with a massive zerg. When i use the word zerg, i don't mean in a bad way. But, once inside, all that you do is kill players and npc and keep pushing to reach the center and push them out. There isn't anything inside the locations that you need to care for. Once the wall is down, just keep killing until everyone is gone.
Now, i'm sure you'll ask me what you can do to improve this. Many ways IMHO. What if the doors could be opened from the inside, and one must use a special siege weapon to send a lone group to open it? What if you had to have controll over a certain point to attack other keep instead of free for all? What if the underground dungeon had a switch to open the gates from the inside. What about traps inside Stonemist. There's so much one can do. There's a fountain in the dungeon that grants permanent invis. (cool stuff), so why not special environmental wepons that grant trully unique powers, like a jumping pack, or whatever.
My main complaint is that sieges revolve around taking down a wall, zerg inside, take it down, controll it, and proced to the next one. While there's different weapon to do the job, their ultimate functionaly is almost identical.
I know, there are many different strategies one can employ, like using a trebucth from afar or a 2 catapults from up close, since the later is cheaper. But, their role is ultimately the same.
And so, combined with the supply system, which like i said, is somewhat shallow, my final impressions of WVW is that it's not a very deep rvr game.
BTW, HOLY SH***T My wall of text hits for 1000000000000000000 crit. Sorry about that, i didn't even realize i wrote that much. Hope you guys have the patience to ready it all. Really sorry 
Comments
1) If the borderlands weren't carbon copies of each other, you would have people complaining about the maps being unfair or easier for some than for others.
2) I had no problem with that, jogging back takes long enough for you not wanting to die.
3) Supplies must be able to be interrupted, that's why caravans have paths and are also marked on maps. Stopping the supply flow is part of successfully sieging a keep.
4) The siege begins BEFORE a wall or door is down. It's up to the defenders to also build siege engines to destroy the attackers artillery. When the enemy took down a wall or a door, it means you sucked at defending...
I'd be curious to read how you would concieve "deep" RvR. The only other game with similar mechanics, DAoC, was way more simplistic.
Respect, walk
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I agree on diversifying resources and make them gatherable in the field but in small amounts.
There are countermeasures once you get a door down. I've heard of groups putting siege weapons inside for when people do break in.
I think WvW was designed to be easily approachable (simple) but give the advantage to those who really strategize. Plus, creating know choke points promotes more battles.
I hope they keep adding more content and map variety to WvW. For now the identical maps prevent "they have the easier map" arguments since there is a server ladder system of sorts.
Interesting thoughts and suggestions.
I'm not as knowledgeable as others around here as far as the WvWvW is concerned, but they seemed like valid concerns.
That being said, one could argue that what's there is better than what we have in most other games out there, so that, in itself, is already better than nothing. Is it perfect? Probably not (nothing ever is), but the beauty of these kind of games is that they can evolve! And I think (hope I'm not wrong!), that ANet will continue updating all facets of the game (WvWvW included) from now on.
They could have continued implementing new mechanics and features (they probably have a long list of tiny details they wished they had time to do), but at some point, they needed to stop adding new stuff and release something!
(And that day is upon us! Yeeha!! )
1- I don't think that's a big problem. There where some concerned over the fact that the lower left in the EB where swampo areas, but it didn't cause trouble. And since you can go to any BL, it's a complete disadvantage. Also, it would probably a very, very badly designed map to create a huge imbalance.
2- Well, it's not a big complain like i said.
3- But in any normal situation, like an RTS or RL, if the enemy found my route, the only logical action is to change it. That's why there's teams with the purpouse of scouting and tracking the enemy. And there's still my other points about supply.
4- I understand all of that. Honestly, you can create many complex strategies in WVW, like, sending a small force to 2 of the Stonemist gates to distract your enemy, while your trully biggest forces goes for the last gate. But then my points still stands. The objective is still teh same as another strategy. Siege down a gate or wall to zerg inside.
Korrigan, i never played the "older" mmorpgs of the time before WOW liek EQ, UO or DAOC, so i can't comment of them directly. However, i don't see how that's an excuse.
DAOC is game that's more than 10 years old. So, i find it perfectly understandable to expect alot more by 2012. If DAOC created the siege system, and it was similar to this one, than GW2's attempt should be to improve upon it by alot (again 10 years). I already posted example to have deeper gameplay, like gates that can be opened from the inside and sending players over the walls.
Also, because i haven't had the time to find out, what doesn underwater do in WVW. I mean, if there isn't naval warfare (another thing that could be added for more depth), what can one accomplish in the water zones? That's what adding variety and, therefore, depth is all about.
1 thing it as is the npc camps with DE to become your friends. That's cool, but it's alreayd a mechanics present in PVE in the first place. And there's already tons of npc guads to fight.
Well, that's my response. Again, not hating on WVW or GW2, but i think that just because it's the best excution of RVR today, doesn't mean it's perfect IMO.
my review of GW2
Oh, it's definitely not perfect, I think nobody disagrees with that. I still think you should give it a little more time to see how it works out when the game is live. For instance, during beta, there wasn't a real motivation to win, since everything would be erased before launch anyway. I'm sure we will see a lot of different strategies, along with small "scout" groups capturing the smaller objectives, after launch.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Sure no supply and simple rules based upon killing (which worked compared to the complicated rules of say war)
But 40+ classes, around 4 * the land mass (more with new frontiers), darkness falls, relics etc..
I like WvW though don't get me wrong, gw2 along with planetside its one of the few games to "get" daoc. My only concern is the annominity thing, I would love to be able to flag my name on.
Oderint, dum metuant.
The 40 classes of DAoC where one of the reasons why the whole game was a mess that was impossible to balance. That, and totally overpowered crowd control. Many view DAoC with rose colored glasses, but the only reason the game had such success was because it was the only one with such a concept. The game in general was quite average, with some really bad points.
ANet took the right approach. If one side can be a (.e.g) necromancer, the other side can be one too.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Did somebody just said that DAoC RvR was more simplistic?
LOL, WwW is a shallow and casual version of DAoC RvR, im not saying that GW2 PVP sucks or anything like that, but DAoC's RvR was waaay more complex and had more depth.
For all we know, WWW could end up like another dead zergfest in 6 months, it's mindless PVP without any real objectives or community, you are pvping against random no names for no reason...
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I think a thread like this will have a lot more meaning a month or so after release when we all get to see and feel what WvWvW becomes (although I think the OP articulated some interesting points quite well). Will it become a stale zerg fest? Will it be complex enough that players can find new ways to challenge the enemies often enough that it stays fresh?
I'm not sure yet, and really no one can say with absolute certainty. I do know that GW2 is new and fresh and shiny enough to try out, and if in a couple months it is awesome, then great... if in a couple months it sucks... let's hope ArenaNet can fix it before a mass exodus. I personally think that WvWvW is probably going to see a lot of changes, but who knows?
Truly, the best games are the ones that are simple to pick up, quick to adapt to, but yet offer a depth and complexity that is only realized with time and experience. Here's to hoping that GW2 is that game.
Frankly, I've wasted way too much money trying out mmo's that have failed over the years, and I really want this one to succeed if only because I'm sick of changing games every two months.
it's horrible how each game company isn't making a game to your specifications.
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Players can pick up supply from Camps, also don't you think another answer to the Dolyaks would be to actively defend them? The main purpose of supply at the moment is to counter the value of sheer manpower really anyway, rather than a resource management element.
Your points seem to be coming from a sandbox or even RTS view point, where as Anet have obviously tried to design WvW more like a board game. Most of the things you mention are deliberate and honestly none of your suggestion would make the game "deeper", just less predicable.
You have to remember that the game is an RPG and most players are here to actually fight with each other over things, not chop wood and build farms.
Of course. Everything in mmorpgs can only be fully tested then. I also know that there'll be "scout" groups and all that.
Honestly, while i did use the word shallow, i'm not saying WVW sucks completly, because it still as great stuff in it, like the dungeon and the sieges aren't actually bad. I'm simply refering to the lack of avriety in it.
Allow me an example. An FPS map where it's just an arena with sand and 4 pillars. Doesn't leave as much room for a variety of combinations like a well designed map with hidden paths, tons of corners, sniper location, etc.
The more variables and mechanics with a situation, the more depth one can have. I also know there're examples liek chess, but even within chess, there's a great variety of pieces, how they move, work together to achive completly different outcomes.
One more example, if i may, is if towers and keeps required different siege weapons to take down and different strategies. Not sometyhing i'd like myself, but as you can see, this creates more variables.
This thread isn't about the future of WVW btw. We will only know after a couple of months. I'm just trying to give my impressions or why i personally feel it could have been better.
heh Warhammer Online and SW:TOR make the CC in DAoC seem moderate and reasonable.
I'm sure WvWvW will be a work in progress.
Why, because the PvP actually has a point? You kill players to reach an objective. You can do other things out in WvW not having to do with forts anyhow if you want to just PK. I imagine people will be spread all over.
I thought WvW was actually quite fun, and I think there are quite a few people that agrees with me. There are areas that could be improved, for example I think it would be more interesting to incorporate the DE system a little bit more into WvW. For example, a dragon appears and knocks down a wall of your keep. Now you have to repair it. It would create a nice variable that would take coordination to to defend against.
Will WvW forever stay in it's current form. Of course not. As the game gets older, ArenaNet will definitely add new features and incorporate new activities into WvW.
However, considering we are only on release, I think it's actually a very good start to what could potentially be a very great game mode. I'm definitely excited to see what ideas they incorporate into WvW.
Not quite sure, but I think zerging is in our nature as humans...
So why should it not translate to our fantasies?
and more so ...our games.
even animals zerg
I disagree with almost everything in the OP. There are design decisions for all of it and they make sense. I get your personal preference, but not only can you not tailor the game to one person's preference, but that's also no way to create a balanced and fun game.
As to the cloning of the borderlands maps, it is indeed to ensure that all three servers have equal footing. Arenanet have said that in the future, they may want to make seperate maps for each borderland, but it will require a lot of time and effort to ensure they are perfectly balanced with each other. I can imagine that something like that will take a lot of time and many, many iterations.
Arenanet will not sit on their behinds, twiddling their thumbs after release. They will listen to feedback, look at their metrics and fine tune what needs to be fine tuned and consider it all as they plan out further expansion of the game.
I would imagine that adding two more perfectly balanced Borderlands maps, due to the time and effort involved, would be better suited to be part of an expansion. (Not that you would need the expansion, of course, but most MMOs include some often big changes and additions to the base product as part of an expansion roll out).
So, yeah, I'll add my vote for non-identical borderlands, but WvW is fine with it as it is and this feature can wait until they are able to do it proper justice.
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I disagree that "balance" is that important, and side for side many people who played it agree the game was balanced.
As for overpowered crowd control it really wasn't, there were various counters and not everyone had it like they do today.
I think the game was very good actually, though it is true that it did have some bad points.
You say it was only popular because it was alone in the field, but in the past 10 years, no one has managed to do it better, and I'm not convinced GW2 will prove to be better either.
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Interesting thread
To keep it simple
1) No, that's actually good! They didn't do it because they are lazy... they have 3 equal borderlands to keep things balanced. You don't want to hear multiple people whining because they got the "inferior borderland" do you?
2) I don't feel that's a real problem
http://www.fist-of-the-empire.com/GW2-WvW-Map.html#
every server can have a foothold in the eternal battleground. It's good
3) a) building supply camps. Nice suggestion i agree... maybe they will add it in the future
b) actually they HAD multiple types of supplies in the game at first but as they revealed it was too confusing for players and too complicated to get the exact type and quantity of supplies for a particular improvement or siege equipment. Again maybe they will go back on that in the future when the players get more experienced.
c) no that's actually a good thing. First you can speed buff the Dolyak if you want. And second since you can ambush the caravans the enemy needs to escort them... leading to some nice small pvp battles
4) a) if i remember correctly there already are alternatives routes so you can. But the devs say they don't want to unbalance things and make "bypassing" gates/wall (the main point of the whole thing!!!!) the preferred route.
b) needed control of a point to attack another point? i don't really see it as an improvement. Maybe in the future but it's fine like this
c) permanent invisibility and traps are nice fun things in the underground dungeon but i don't want to have those things unbalance a siege battle. Siege battles should be about .... sieges not minor "tricks"
I see you want to "enrich" the WvWvW experience but you don't want to lose the focuse of Siege Warfare and that's:
control resources, protect supply routes, take down gates/walls, storm a castle.
That's it. And that's how it should be. Minor things can come later one. Arenanet should focus on the BASICS now and make sure they work properly. There is always space for improvements later.
And you can't call supply system "shallow".... it's the most complex supply system in a mmmorpg at the moment.
It's the deepest RvR system at the moment!
couldn't disagree more. GW2 WvW is the best PvP I've ever experienced in a MMO. The best.
^ agreed
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