Open world events are not Raids. Raids are coordinated group efforts. Have 30 people zerg a random encounter or fort is no where near as fulfilling as strategizing a kill.
You can't get your guild together and say, "ok mates, today we kill 'X'". Because once you get to that location, the boss will probably not be there. Even so, you have to be close to the boss location just to find that out. Boss encounters are on the fly and for zergs.
It's missing the strategy, coordination, studying, and preplanned tactics that PvE'rs go for. In WvW, the times I tried to join I was constantly que'd. That will also make it difficult to get a group of 30 into.
LineageII | LoTRO | RFO | 9Dragons | Aion | Perfect World | Ether Saga | Dungeon Runners | GuildWars 1 and 2 | Hellgate London | tCoS | Warhammer | AoC | Tabula Rasa | SWTOR youtube.com/gcidogmeat
Originally posted by BadSpock Yeah I'll take more open world elite DE's that are pretty much public raid encounters than instanced grind content any and every day of the week.
I'd take more well done content options that don't feel like a grind because they're fun, any day of the week. Which is the part I don't get about this type of thread (aside from so many on both sides, talking about specifics of endgame that none have seen). Why must a Raid be a grind? Why must it's only purpose serve as a gear treadmill? What happened to innovation? With Anets mantra would their raids end up that way?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by BadSpock Yeah I'll take more open world elite DE's that are pretty much public raid encounters than instanced grind content any and every day of the week.
I'd take more well done content options that don't feel like a grind because they're fun, any day of the week. Which is the part I don't get about this type of thread (aside from so many on both sides, talking about specifics of endgame that none have seen). Why must a Raid be a grind? Why must it's only purpose serve as a gear treadmill? What happened to innovation? With Anets mantra would their raids end up that way?
By themselves, raids are fun because they are generally more difficult content. However once they beat it a few times, most people continue running these raids for gear. At which point it becomes a grind.
While I'm not a big fan of raiding, I have yet to see anything GW2 has that will prolong the interest of it's PvE community. It's PvP is adequate endgame, but I have very little doubt that you're going to hear a lot of complaining from the PvE community.
aside from instanced dungeon raiding what does gw2 not offer the PVE crowd? it does have raiding btw just in the open world form.
What does it offer? How does that set it apart? Open world raiding is historically mediocre in practice, and I have doubt that's going to change just because GW2 is the title of the game.
1) it offers freedom of time. You are no required to paste 4 to 6 hours of your life 1 to 6 times a week to build up points to be able to roll for some pixels. Now if you see a huge monster you can run over and help defeat it. As more people fight it it becomes harder to defeat.
2) it offeres everyone a reward for taking part in the great conflict. At the full conslusion of dynamic event chains. There is the chance that a vendoe will appear offering special items not availabe any other time.
3) the DE system becomes more complex the higher you level. To the point of having multiple outcomes and is refered to as a dynamic web. This is due to dynamic events crossing paths thus making different outcomes take place.
4) dungeons which are the five man raids in other MMOs are totally different in GW2.
a) you have five different paths in a dungeon.
b) you will be ask questions via cut scenes and each time you give it different answers it will cause different DE to take place down each of the five paths. Due to the fact that you can due only one path at a time makes each time you do it totally different.
A MMO is like life. It is something to cherish and enjoy upon in it journey. So why race to the end of it. In life at the end you die.
I raided massive amounts of hours in various MMO's, its a carrot on a stick design i feel is not needed in GW2.
Sure ive had epic nerd screams when we downed a boss and got a server 1st, but the tremendous amount of hours that got into that was just not fun. Wipe nights, who remember them ? Half the guild dint show up at those nights and morale could drop low, friends got kicked out of the guild and alot of drama needs to be fixed.
GW2 focus on fun and not a carrot on a stick design and i love them for it
I'd take more well done content options that don't feel like a grind because they're fun, any day of the week. Which is the part I don't get about this type of thread (aside from so many on both sides, talking about specifics of endgame that none have seen). Why must a Raid be a grind? Why must it's only purpose serve as a gear treadmill? What happened to innovation? With Anets mantra would their raids end up that way?
By themselves, raids are fun because they are generally more difficult content. However once they beat it a few times, most people continue running these raids for gear. At which point it becomes a grind.
What I'm asking is why must a raid be about getting gear in reference to if they were in GW2, a game trying to separate itself from the gear treadmills of the past? Raids would be another option for those who want them, when it comes to an MMO and content, there's always room for more.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'd take more well done content options that don't feel like a grind because they're fun, any day of the week. Which is the part I don't get about this type of thread (aside from so many on both sides, talking about specifics of endgame that none have seen). Why must a Raid be a grind? Why must it's only purpose serve as a gear treadmill? What happened to innovation? With Anets mantra would their raids end up that way?
By themselves, raids are fun because they are generally more difficult content. However once they beat it a few times, most people continue running these raids for gear. At which point it becomes a grind.
What I'm asking is why must a raid be about getting gear in reference to if they were in GW2, a game trying to separate itself from the gear treadmills of the past? Raids would be another option for those who want them, when it comes to an MMO and content, there's always room for more.
Instanced raids require more development time and money and generally get experienced by a fraction of the playerbase. It's not a solid investment. Besides, the game already has open world raids which fit perfectly with ArenaNet's vision for GW2.
It's missing the strategy, coordination, studying, and preplanned tactics that PvE'rs go for.
You mean following the wiki and just memorizing what the boss does at each % of its hit points?
The elite raiders do the work, everyone else just steps in the footprints they left behind and claim that they are skilled.
In some mmo the "elite raiders" get tips from the developers.
In some mmos they also get Champagne and last I heard a chocolate cake for every time they beat down an encounter.
Having raids is not a bad thing anyone saying that you should have less options is not really thinking, having an instance with 5 people or with 30 people makes no difference, the only thing you can complain about is developers focusing their entire content and progression on those 30 man instances. But if you dont do that there is nothing wrong in having an instance that has multiple tiers of difficulty 5, 10, 30, 100 whatever, why not? If you hate it so much dont do it, there are still people who do enjoy raiding for the challenge. Because you are tired of it, doesnt mean the world is tired of it, the proof is in the pudding, when MoP, mops the floor with every other release yet again ( pun intended ).
Not saying WoW is "better" ( whatever this means ) and me personally I will be getting both, cause I enjoyed pvp in GW2 quite a lot, but attempting to dismiss the opinions of 9 million players and instead attempting to make it seem like these people are conned into liking raiding is a pretty weak argument.
Almost all of my favorite memories from Everquest 1 involve raids:
1) Breaking into Plane of Fear successfully.
2) Seeing the last island of Plane of Sky.
3) Finally killing the Avatar of War.
4) The experience of the massive amount of teamwork and coordination that went into beating The Rathe Council and the resulting satisfaction.
Just to name a few. Granted, modern MMO raids are nothing like what I listed above, but I'd rather move back towards that design rather than further away from it.
It's missing the strategy, coordination, studying, and preplanned tactics that PvE'rs go for.
You mean following the wiki and just memorizing what the boss does at each % of its hit points?
The elite raiders do the work, everyone else just steps in the footprints they left behind and claim that they are skilled.
In some mmo the "elite raiders" get tips from the developers.
In some mmos they also get Champagne and last I heard a chocolate cake for every time they beat down an encounter.
Having raids is not a bad thing anyone saying that you should have less options is not really thinking, having an instance with 5 people or with 30 people makes no difference, the only thing you can complain about is developers focusing their entire content and progression on those 30 man instances. But if you dont do that there is nothing wrong in having an instance that has multiple tiers of difficulty 5, 10, 30, 100 whatever, why not? If you hate it so much dont do it, there are still people who do enjoy raiding for the challenge. Because you are tired of it, doesnt mean the world is tired of it, the proof is in the pudding, when MoP, mops the floor with every other release yet again ( pun intended ).
Not saying is better or whatever and me personally I will be getting both, cause I enjoyed pvp in GW2 quite a lot, but attempting to dismiss the opinions of 9 million players and instead attempting to make it seem like these people are conned into liking raiding is a pretty weak argument.
opinions of 9 million players and instead attempting to make it seem like these people are conned into liking raiding is a pretty weak argument.
LESS THAN 2% of WoW's population ever actually RAID. That might have increased somewhat with LFR (if you consider that raiding), but even then, that still isn't much.
I enjoyed semi-casual raiding for a while but it did become repetetive after a while, as will anything you do time and time again. GW2's endgame appeals to me a lot more than the standard raid structure but, in all honesty, only time will tell. For me, if I'm invested in the world, the lore and my character then that always keeps end game, and the general longevity of the game alive a lot longer.
Personal opinion here but GW2 "hooked" me from the first time I logged in. The looks, the sounds, the atmosphere etc. To me, these are on a par with the actual game mechanics in terms of importance, though I enjoyed all the game mechanics I got to see in the betas and think it plays very well. The actual mechanics of the DE's and open world "raiding" just feels more natural and organic to me.
Fanboy? Possibly, but GW2 is the first game, and the first world, that I've actively wanted to learn more about, to explore it all for a long time and hopefully time will prove me right and I'll be happy there for a long time too.
It's missing the strategy, coordination, studying, and preplanned tactics that PvE'rs go for.
You mean following the wiki and just memorizing what the boss does at each % of its hit points?
The elite raiders do the work, everyone else just steps in the footprints they left behind and claim that they are skilled.
That's why I am excited about GW2. You're right. Elite Raiders do the work (as much as breaking down encounters to mathimatical equations and min/maxing everything to death can be considered work). I have done "work" since EverQuest. I relaxed and enjoyed WoW until my guild wanted to become competitive (as competitive as you can be when you are playing against people who have far more free time than you). GW2 will offer the fun a game should be along with some challenge that isn't over the top punishing (unless they didn't fix the Metrica Province Fire Elemental Event).
GW2 will not appeal to the elite and hardcore in PVE because you'll likely have to try and work beside newbs who spent 100 hours on their class that they still haven't learned to play. Elites like to only play with Elites. Elites will not have the power to simply raid kick someone for standing in the fire during World Events.
opinions of 9 million players and instead attempting to make it seem like these people are conned into liking raiding is a pretty weak argument.
LESS THAN 2% of WoW's population ever actually RAID. That might have increased somewhat with LFR (if you consider that raiding), but even then, that still isn't much.
That percentage is a bit higher since the inception of 10 man raiding content, but not much more. In vanilla is was less than 1% that really ever saw all of that content. I would wager that there's far more PvPers in WoW than Raiders, considering how much easier it is to get into it.
Raiding seems like the forefront of WoW because that's all the news from the game ever really reports on, but the fact is that it's a vocal minority of folks who actually raid in WoW.
Instanced raids require more development time and money and generally get experienced by a fraction of the playerbase. It's not a solid investment. Besides, the game already has open world raids which fit perfectly with ArenaNet's vision for GW2.
I wasn't saying they should try and cram them in for launch, only that it's something to think about for future content.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
GW2 will not appeal to the elite and hardcore in PVE because you'll likely have to try and work beside newbs who spent 100 hours on their class that they still haven't learned to play. Elites like to only play with Elites. Elites will not have the power to simply raid kick someone for standing in the fire.
Not entirely true. I've raided in WoW, Rift and TOR hardcore since BC in WoW. I've cleared every hardmode in WoW with my guild up until we disbanded. I went over to Rift and found the raiding boring and leveling worse. I went to TOR, enjoyed leveling to a point and beat every nightmare mode.
That being said, I really dont care that GW2 has raids, as long as it has a challenge. From playing BWE3 and a few stress tests, I enjoyed the PvE and PvP respectively and thought the combat system was new and exciting. I also fought one of the raid bosses (syvari zone, giant worm thing) and thought that it was at least fun, not exciting sadly since it was in the BWE and there were way too many people there.
Even though I'm a hardcore raider I couldn't care less about gear, besides for the showoff of it. I can't tell you how many times my epeen rose when I got tells from people who were shocked at the gear I was getting. That being said, cosmetics seem fine to me as I can still do anything I want to without farming to do it. The stats on the items keep my interest in that I can still mess around with specs and gear stats to fit my play style.
Honestly I pose this question to the "end game is pointless because there is nothing to do". How many people would go back and play WoW if they got rid of gear requirement, leveled you down and let you play any raid/instance that was ever created in the game and make it as challenging as it was back when people did it in vanilla/TBC/WOTLK?
And to keep on subject, the reason that I feel they didnt bother with the "raid once a week to get urself gear to to do the next raid blah" is that there is no subscription. When theres no need to farm gear, y bother pushing yourself to get you moneys worth every month. Theres no need to play 10 games of PvP or run a raid for one piece of loot till next patch comes out.
If I were to make an analogy to what I feel GW2 is like, I'd say Skyrim comes to mind, since beating the game isnt the point of it. The whole point of the game is to get the whole experience, explore and do whatever you want. So basically I'm playing a MMO Skyrim, pretty sure that will get my attention and get my moneys worth.
TL:DR: Not all raiders care about progression of gear or instances. All content being available at basically anytime is fine and will keep attention. GW2 masks the adventure over the destination.
I'm just glad there is finally a AAA MMO that isn't going to focus on raiding and raid progression. It's music to my ears even if I can't stand GW2's combat system, heh.
Instanced raids require more development time and money and generally get experienced by a fraction of the playerbase. It's not a solid investment. Besides, the game already has open world raids which fit perfectly with ArenaNet's vision for GW2.
I wasn't saying they should try and cram them in for launch, only that it's something to think about for future content.
Absolutely not! You already have just about every single MMO that offers raid progression, allow us at least one frakking game, you greedy bastages.
Comments
Open world events are not Raids. Raids are coordinated group efforts. Have 30 people zerg a random encounter or fort is no where near as fulfilling as strategizing a kill.
You can't get your guild together and say, "ok mates, today we kill 'X'". Because once you get to that location, the boss will probably not be there. Even so, you have to be close to the boss location just to find that out. Boss encounters are on the fly and for zergs.
It's missing the strategy, coordination, studying, and preplanned tactics that PvE'rs go for. In WvW, the times I tried to join I was constantly que'd. That will also make it difficult to get a group of 30 into.
youtube.com/gcidogmeat
I'd take more well done content options that don't feel like a grind because they're fun, any day of the week. Which is the part I don't get about this type of thread (aside from so many on both sides, talking about specifics of endgame that none have seen). Why must a Raid be a grind? Why must it's only purpose serve as a gear treadmill? What happened to innovation? With Anets mantra would their raids end up that way?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
By themselves, raids are fun because they are generally more difficult content. However once they beat it a few times, most people continue running these raids for gear. At which point it becomes a grind.
1) it offers freedom of time. You are no required to paste 4 to 6 hours of your life 1 to 6 times a week to build up points to be able to roll for some pixels. Now if you see a huge monster you can run over and help defeat it. As more people fight it it becomes harder to defeat.
2) it offeres everyone a reward for taking part in the great conflict. At the full conslusion of dynamic event chains. There is the chance that a vendoe will appear offering special items not availabe any other time.
3) the DE system becomes more complex the higher you level. To the point of having multiple outcomes and is refered to as a dynamic web. This is due to dynamic events crossing paths thus making different outcomes take place.
4) dungeons which are the five man raids in other MMOs are totally different in GW2.
a) you have five different paths in a dungeon.
b) you will be ask questions via cut scenes and each time you give it different answers it will cause different DE to take place down each of the five paths. Due to the fact that you can due only one path at a time makes each time you do it totally different.
A MMO is like life. It is something to cherish and enjoy upon in it journey. So why race to the end of it. In life at the end you die.
Great read and i wont disagree.
I raided massive amounts of hours in various MMO's, its a carrot on a stick design i feel is not needed in GW2.
Sure ive had epic nerd screams when we downed a boss and got a server 1st, but the tremendous amount of hours that got into that was just not fun.
Wipe nights, who remember them ?
Half the guild dint show up at those nights and morale could drop low, friends got kicked out of the guild and alot of drama needs to be fixed.
GW2 focus on fun and not a carrot on a stick design and i love them for it
You mean following the wiki and just memorizing what the boss does at each % of its hit points?
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
The elite raiders do the work, everyone else just steps in the footprints they left behind and claim that they are skilled.
In some mmo the "elite raiders" get tips from the developers.
Do they?
What I'm asking is why must a raid be about getting gear in reference to if they were in GW2, a game trying to separate itself from the gear treadmills of the past? Raids would be another option for those who want them, when it comes to an MMO and content, there's always room for more.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Instanced raids require more development time and money and generally get experienced by a fraction of the playerbase. It's not a solid investment. Besides, the game already has open world raids which fit perfectly with ArenaNet's vision for GW2.
In some mmos they also get Champagne and last I heard a chocolate cake for every time they beat down an encounter.
Having raids is not a bad thing anyone saying that you should have less options is not really thinking, having an instance with 5 people or with 30 people makes no difference, the only thing you can complain about is developers focusing their entire content and progression on those 30 man instances. But if you dont do that there is nothing wrong in having an instance that has multiple tiers of difficulty 5, 10, 30, 100 whatever, why not? If you hate it so much dont do it, there are still people who do enjoy raiding for the challenge. Because you are tired of it, doesnt mean the world is tired of it, the proof is in the pudding, when MoP, mops the floor with every other release yet again ( pun intended ).
Not saying WoW is "better" ( whatever this means ) and me personally I will be getting both, cause I enjoyed pvp in GW2 quite a lot, but attempting to dismiss the opinions of 9 million players and instead attempting to make it seem like these people are conned into liking raiding is a pretty weak argument.
Almost all of my favorite memories from Everquest 1 involve raids:
1) Breaking into Plane of Fear successfully.
2) Seeing the last island of Plane of Sky.
3) Finally killing the Avatar of War.
4) The experience of the massive amount of teamwork and coordination that went into beating The Rathe Council and the resulting satisfaction.
Just to name a few. Granted, modern MMO raids are nothing like what I listed above, but I'd rather move back towards that design rather than further away from it.
I like pie.
All hail the Barn Owl! oh.. and the RED SQUIRREL!!!
LESS THAN 2% of WoW's population ever actually RAID. That might have increased somewhat with LFR (if you consider that raiding), but even then, that still isn't much.
I enjoyed semi-casual raiding for a while but it did become repetetive after a while, as will anything you do time and time again. GW2's endgame appeals to me a lot more than the standard raid structure but, in all honesty, only time will tell. For me, if I'm invested in the world, the lore and my character then that always keeps end game, and the general longevity of the game alive a lot longer.
Personal opinion here but GW2 "hooked" me from the first time I logged in. The looks, the sounds, the atmosphere etc. To me, these are on a par with the actual game mechanics in terms of importance, though I enjoyed all the game mechanics I got to see in the betas and think it plays very well. The actual mechanics of the DE's and open world "raiding" just feels more natural and organic to me.
Fanboy? Possibly, but GW2 is the first game, and the first world, that I've actively wanted to learn more about, to explore it all for a long time and hopefully time will prove me right and I'll be happy there for a long time too.
That's why I am excited about GW2. You're right. Elite Raiders do the work (as much as breaking down encounters to mathimatical equations and min/maxing everything to death can be considered work). I have done "work" since EverQuest. I relaxed and enjoyed WoW until my guild wanted to become competitive (as competitive as you can be when you are playing against people who have far more free time than you). GW2 will offer the fun a game should be along with some challenge that isn't over the top punishing (unless they didn't fix the Metrica Province Fire Elemental Event).
GW2 will not appeal to the elite and hardcore in PVE because you'll likely have to try and work beside newbs who spent 100 hours on their class that they still haven't learned to play. Elites like to only play with Elites. Elites will not have the power to simply raid kick someone for standing in the fire during World Events.
That percentage is a bit higher since the inception of 10 man raiding content, but not much more. In vanilla is was less than 1% that really ever saw all of that content. I would wager that there's far more PvPers in WoW than Raiders, considering how much easier it is to get into it.
Raiding seems like the forefront of WoW because that's all the news from the game ever really reports on, but the fact is that it's a vocal minority of folks who actually raid in WoW.
Correct me if I'm wrong. Guild wars 2 raid basically is a world boss where it's so easy that almost any unorganized group can down it on first try?
Dont' bash me for saying what I said. That's what people say on forum.
I wasn't saying they should try and cram them in for launch, only that it's something to think about for future content.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Awwwwhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Daddy cursed!
Not entirely true. I've raided in WoW, Rift and TOR hardcore since BC in WoW. I've cleared every hardmode in WoW with my guild up until we disbanded. I went over to Rift and found the raiding boring and leveling worse. I went to TOR, enjoyed leveling to a point and beat every nightmare mode.
That being said, I really dont care that GW2 has raids, as long as it has a challenge. From playing BWE3 and a few stress tests, I enjoyed the PvE and PvP respectively and thought the combat system was new and exciting. I also fought one of the raid bosses (syvari zone, giant worm thing) and thought that it was at least fun, not exciting sadly since it was in the BWE and there were way too many people there.
Even though I'm a hardcore raider I couldn't care less about gear, besides for the showoff of it. I can't tell you how many times my epeen rose when I got tells from people who were shocked at the gear I was getting. That being said, cosmetics seem fine to me as I can still do anything I want to without farming to do it. The stats on the items keep my interest in that I can still mess around with specs and gear stats to fit my play style.
Honestly I pose this question to the "end game is pointless because there is nothing to do". How many people would go back and play WoW if they got rid of gear requirement, leveled you down and let you play any raid/instance that was ever created in the game and make it as challenging as it was back when people did it in vanilla/TBC/WOTLK?
And to keep on subject, the reason that I feel they didnt bother with the "raid once a week to get urself gear to to do the next raid blah" is that there is no subscription. When theres no need to farm gear, y bother pushing yourself to get you moneys worth every month. Theres no need to play 10 games of PvP or run a raid for one piece of loot till next patch comes out.
If I were to make an analogy to what I feel GW2 is like, I'd say Skyrim comes to mind, since beating the game isnt the point of it. The whole point of the game is to get the whole experience, explore and do whatever you want. So basically I'm playing a MMO Skyrim, pretty sure that will get my attention and get my moneys worth.
TL:DR: Not all raiders care about progression of gear or instances. All content being available at basically anytime is fine and will keep attention. GW2 masks the adventure over the destination.
Absolutely not! You already have just about every single MMO that offers raid progression, allow us at least one frakking game, you greedy bastages.