Are you so new to MMOs you dont know what damage mitigation is? It covers everything that stops or slows down damage you take, from passive skills, to hitting your dodge in GW2, to skills your class has like control and buffs/debuff, your AC and SWToR gave us a new one with a cover mechinic. If you dont know what that is you have no place on this forum till you have read up on MMO terms.
This is part of the problem. Your definition is opposed to others.
When most players talk about damage mitigation, they are refering, specifically, with abilities that directly reduce incoming damage. Block, Armor, Evade, etc.
If I asked what Immobilization is, the majority would call it CC, but in truth, It could also be seen as mitigation. Same with a slow. Google Damage Mitigation. See what you get.
Your mixing Control in with Damage Mitigation, and thats confusing the hell out of some poeple.
P.S. - If you cannot tell by my posts that I am well versed in MMO mechanics thats your deal. Im not making a persponal attack, and I would ask you to do the same.
So I dont get your point then. Your stand is that there is or isnt a Soft Trinity in GW2? Or you dont like the use of damage mitigation when taking about the Soft Trinity?
So I dont get your point then. Your stand is that there is or isnt a Soft Trinity in GW2? Or you dont like the use of damage mitigation when taking about the Soft Trinity?
Let me try to be more clear.
Your point seems to be this:
That the tradtional "Holy Trinity" that was promised to be gone is, in actuality, just split up amongst each class. So that while there is no dedicated class for each role, the roles exist none then less.
Would that be acurate? Because I dont think thats entirely the case, but I want to be sure I understand the point you are trying to make.
So I dont get your point then. Your stand is that there is or isnt a Soft Trinity in GW2? Or you dont like the use of damage mitigation when taking about the Soft Trinity?
Let me try to be more clear.
Your point seems to be this:
That the tradtional "Holy Trinity" that was promised to be gone is, in actuality, just split up amongst each class. So that while there is no dedicated class for each role, the roles exist none then less.
Would that be acurate? Because I dont think thats entirely the case, but I want to be sure I understand the point you are trying to make.
I think I know where you are going, let me guess. No taunt in this game so there for there is no tanks! Did I read you right? If not you have me intrested, go on.
So I dont get your point then. Your stand is that there is or isnt a Soft Trinity in GW2? Or you dont like the use of damage mitigation when taking about the Soft Trinity?
Let me try to be more clear.
Your point seems to be this:
That the tradtional "Holy Trinity" that was promised to be gone is, in actuality, just split up amongst each class. So that while there is no dedicated class for each role, the roles exist none then less.
Would that be acurate? Because I dont think thats entirely the case, but I want to be sure I understand the point you are trying to make.
I think I know where you are going, let me guess. No taunt in this game so there for there is no tanks! Did I read you right? If not you have me intrested, go on.
I would say having no true aggro statistic in this game pretty much takes away any standard definition of tank from the trinity. If you want to say any control=tank I guess you could make an argument for that but it's really not the same as a standard holy trinity tank in past MMOs..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
They beat part of the ascalon catacombs with a full DPS team.
Did they break the trinnity or would this have been easier with a full team of support pecced players?
two things wrong with his thinking. He keeps saying he is having a gear issue. That doesn't exist in GW2, so he's definitely misinforming the public watching his show.
the second thing is simple, he did no dodging the entire time he was being attacked by anything. Seriously, Lrn2play it's not that hard to hit a dodge button.
Oh and just love how he's like "well this isn't easy" uhm no it's not and that's the point. for too long people have just had everything handed to them in dungeons, it's not going to be easy unless you want to play WoW or SWTOR which are "push button receive gear" dungeons.
They beat part of the ascalon catacombs with a full DPS team.
Did they break the trinnity or would this have been easier with a full team of support pecced players?
two things wrong with his thinking. He keeps saying he is having a gear issue. That doesn't exist in GW2, so he's definitely misinforming the public watching his show.
the second thing is simple, he did no dodging the entire time he was being attacked by anything. Seriously, Lrn2play it's not that hard to hit a dodge button.
Oh and just love how he's like "well this isn't easy" uhm no it's not and that's the point. for too long people have just had everything handed to them in dungeons, it's not going to be easy unless you want to play WoW or SWTOR which are "push button receive gear" dungeons.
not true the gear difference between say level 5 and level 80 is still pretty big.. In WvWvW you get the boost up in HP so you don't get destroyed which takes a lot of the gear imbalances away but in PVE if you go into a level 30 dungeon with level 1 gear expect to get waisted.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I think I know where you are going, let me guess. No taunt in this game so there for there is no tanks! Did I read you right? If not you have me intrested, go on.
No thats not what I was going to say, but it is a good point!
A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. Im sure you've heard this many times.
Tanking is a form of Control. Healing is a form of Support. But both Control and Support are much more than those things.
If, for example, keep a mob knocked down, and away from my team I am Controlling them, but not Tanking them, as that would mean I am absorbing hits and negating damage with my skills.
They fundamentally re-thought what each of the roles purpose was, and created a new implementation, that also happens to be a trinity.
So I dont get your point then. Your stand is that there is or isnt a Soft Trinity in GW2? Or you dont like the use of damage mitigation when taking about the Soft Trinity?
Let me try to be more clear.
Your point seems to be this:
That the tradtional "Holy Trinity" that was promised to be gone is, in actuality, just split up amongst each class. So that while there is no dedicated class for each role, the roles exist none then less.
Would that be acurate? Because I dont think thats entirely the case, but I want to be sure I understand the point you are trying to make.
I think I know where you are going, let me guess. No taunt in this game so there for there is no tanks! Did I read you right? If not you have me intrested, go on.
I would say having no true aggro statistic in this game pretty much takes away any standard definition of tank from the trinity. If you want to say any control=tank I guess you could make an argument for that but it's really not the same as a standard holy trinity tank in past MMOs..
There is no taunt skill but there are lots of way to get or take/make aggro. Often person standing closet to the mob gets aggro/hit. Spike damage, or in the case of my Gaurdian, pumping out a large amount of heals seems to always get attention of any boss. When that happened I would mitigate damage with passive heals, dodge, buffs like Aegis, debuffs like blind. I could stand toe to toe with a boss longer then most people I played with. But never tried to play the main tank if you gona bash me on the head with that next. To be honest my hope is that ANet balances all classes so that everyone does the same skills equaly. So a Elementalist in water/staff puts out the same amount of healing as a Guardian. As it stands now, classes can tank, not in the traditional MMO way but not much about GW2 is traditional. Seems like no one person is required to tank longer then a min at most.
I think I know where you are going, let me guess. No taunt in this game so there for there is no tanks! Did I read you right? If not you have me intrested, go on.
No thats not what I was going to say, but it is a good point!
A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. Im sure you've heard this many times.
Tanking is a form of Control. Healing is a form of Support. But both Control and Support are much more than those things.
If, for example, keep a mob knocked down, and away from my team I am Controlling them, but not Tanking them, as that would mean I am absorbing hits and negating damage with my skills.
They fundamentally re-thought what each of the roles purpose was, and created a new implementation, that also happens to be a trinity.
Sure for the sake of this debate, remove control from the classes, I still can tank short term with any class. Some longer then others.
You heard of the Guardian? Go look @ the specific skills of the Guardian & then look at the "Staff" weapon for Guardians. They are about as much of a healer as a Cleric is in EQ2. They're so HEAVY on support compared to other classes it's almost laughable.
No, it is nothing like a Cleric in EQ2. A Cleric in EQ2 can keep someone alive (a tank) taking constant damage from all the opponents. A guardian can do relatively small (about 5-10% of someones healing compared to their own self heal) support.
Do they do more than some of the other professions? Yes.
Does this make them a healer? No.
In fact, there is nothing they can do heal-wise that cannot be replicated by another class. In fact, the only class that cannot spec to heal allies reliably is the Thief. None of this healing accounts for much though, as the primary healing source will be your self heal.
I think I know where you are going, let me guess. No taunt in this game so there for there is no tanks! Did I read you right? If not you have me intrested, go on.
No thats not what I was going to say, but it is a good point!
A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. Im sure you've heard this many times.
Tanking is a form of Control. Healing is a form of Support. But both Control and Support are much more than those things.
If, for example, keep a mob knocked down, and away from my team I am Controlling them, but not Tanking them, as that would mean I am absorbing hits and negating damage with my skills.
They fundamentally re-thought what each of the roles purpose was, and created a new implementation, that also happens to be a trinity.
Sure for the sake of this debate, remove control from the classes, I still can tank short term with any class. Some longer then others.
I have seen dev walkthroughs showing them getting two shot by a regular mob, much less a dungeon boss. If you think your going to tank that, I think your quite mistaken.
And even if its possible, its still going to be FAR more effective to utilize control abilities to win boss fights.
Sure for the sake of this debate, remove control from the classes, I still can tank short term with any class. Some longer then others.
I still don't consider a mob wacking on you because you happen to be closest really tanking.. if you consider that tanking any class in any game can "tank" for a short period of time till they are dead. Taking away the taunt mechanic and aggro statistics pretty much has eliminated what you would call holy trinity tanking. The control aspect gw2 has added isn't really tanking at all in the traditional sense or the holy trinity sense.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I think I know where you are going, let me guess. No taunt in this game so there for there is no tanks! Did I read you right? If not you have me intrested, go on.
No thats not what I was going to say, but it is a good point!
A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. Im sure you've heard this many times.
Tanking is a form of Control. Healing is a form of Support. But both Control and Support are much more than those things.
If, for example, keep a mob knocked down, and away from my team I am Controlling them, but not Tanking them, as that would mean I am absorbing hits and negating damage with my skills.
They fundamentally re-thought what each of the roles purpose was, and created a new implementation, that also happens to be a trinity.
Sure for the sake of this debate, remove control from the classes, I still can tank short term with any class. Some longer then others.
I have seen dev walkthroughs showing them getting two shot by a regular mob, much less a dungeon boss. If you think your going to tank that, I think your quite mistaken.
And even if its possible, its still going to be FAR more effective to utilize control abilities to win boss fights.
Rolls eyes and walks away. Thanks for the uesless lession in how awesome controle is in GW2. Just a FYI Guardians and Necros can take beatings for a few mins without much of a problem. In sPvP I had 4 people beating on me and could not take me down and this went on for a few min. In the end I truned around when 3 ran off from boredom of trying to kill me and I killed the 4th player 1v1 even with the fact I was at 1/2 health when I started fighting back. If thats not tanking I have no clue what is. I will agree, tanking in GW2 is not traditional but its there in the form of a total package of "Damage Mitigation" in that I count the controle listed on GW2wiki as a soft trinity. Dont agree with me <<<shrugs and walks away>>>>
Rolls eyes and walks away. Thanks for the uesless lession in how awesome controle is in GW2. Just a FYI Guardians and Necros can take beatings for a few mins without much of a problem. In sPvP I had 4 people beating on me and could not take me down and this went on for a few min. In the end I truned around when 3 ran off from boredom of trying to kill me and I killed the 4th player 1v1 even with the fact I was at 1/2 health when I started fighting back. If thats not tanking I have no clue what is. I will agree, tanking in GW2 is not traditional but its there in the form of a total package of "Damage Mitigation" in that I count the controle listed on GW2wiki as a soft trinity. Dont agree with me <<>>>
Which is a great illustration why sPvP /= PvE. Nice. But by all means, roll your eyes and walk away, sure in the certainty that we are all wrong, but you have the truth of it.
PvP and PvE are not the same regarding damage. It's was t like that too in GW1, killing a 600 HP guy without a spike could take some time in PvP (especially if he was backed up), but that same guy could get 2-shot by a trash mob in endgame pve, like in the underworld (any group, meaning usually 2 mobs, could wipe an entire regular party without the right teamwork).
It's going to be the same in GW2 PvE.
The trinity just can't work, you can't tank and nobody can heal you efficiently (even a staff guardian, 2k heal won't work against a 10k auto-attack).
You will need teamwork and good use of skills to survive. There is no other way.
I think I know where you are going, let me guess. No taunt in this game so there for there is no tanks! Did I read you right? If not you have me intrested, go on.
No thats not what I was going to say, but it is a good point!
A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. Im sure you've heard this many times.
Tanking is a form of Control. Healing is a form of Support. But both Control and Support are much more than those things.
If, for example, keep a mob knocked down, and away from my team I am Controlling them, but not Tanking them, as that would mean I am absorbing hits and negating damage with my skills.
They fundamentally re-thought what each of the roles purpose was, and created a new implementation, that also happens to be a trinity.
Sure for the sake of this debate, remove control from the classes, I still can tank short term with any class. Some longer then others.
I have seen dev walkthroughs showing them getting two shot by a regular mob, much less a dungeon boss. If you think your going to tank that, I think your quite mistaken.
And even if its possible, its still going to be FAR more effective to utilize control abilities to win boss fights.
Rolls eyes and walks away. Thanks for the uesless lession in how awesome controle is in GW2. Just a FYI Guardians and Necros can take beatings for a few mins without much of a problem. In sPvP I had 4 people beating on me and could not take me down and this went on for a few min. In the end I truned around when 3 ran off from boredom of trying to kill me and I killed the 4th player 1v1 even with the fact I was at 1/2 health when I started fighting back. If thats not tanking I have no clue what is. I will agree, tanking in GW2 is not traditional but its there in the form of a total package of "Damage Mitigation" in that I count the controle listed on GW2wiki as a soft trinity. Dont agree with me <<>>>
this is when you know someone is playing against bad players. dont exist any classs that can take damage from 4 players LOL. unless you were playing against full defense build that is almost impossible on random sPvP matchs. warrior can too takle insane damage like Necro and Guardian (with special builds obvious, Necro and guardian with berserk amulet die very very easy and quick).
with my Necro i could too fight against 4 players kill 1 (well only down because is impossible to real killl someone against more 3 players with Necro) and run away and tale lot of damage. this make me a amazing player, big NO, the otehr players were just very bad.
"if thats not tanking i have no clue what is" LOOOL.
yap, you dont have any clue. you were fight against bad players with a great class Necro on BW1 and 2 were amazing). mesmer against bad players can easy "tank" 3-4 players LOL. same for any class, elementalist too especially with staff. please stop make with claims like " i could do this on sPvP " like was a big thing, like you lot of people do the same ( like me) but most of people know were playing against very bad players...
anyone saying can take damage from 4 players need serious try a tournament and pass the 1s round, would love see anyone on a final tournament saying can figh against 4 players. LOL. on tournaments anyone against 4 player cant even last 1m....
on dungeons forget any tank because you cant tank anything, mob will not only atack you, you cant agrro him with skills
Well as one of the original arguers on this thread, let me try to shed some light on things and maybe help everyone understand the different viewpoints. Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but this is what I think...
Nanfoodle pretty much admits that GW2 does not have the holy trinity. All he is arguing is that GW2 has..."a trinity." Which is technically correct, and everyone will agree that GW2 does have "the trinity" of damage, support, and control. The devs even directly say this. And I think that no one would dispute this (feel free to dispute if you want).
The problem here is that the "no trinity" folks are trying to say that GW2 does not have the HOLY TRINITY, they are not trying to say that GW2 does not have the trinity of damage, support and control. And the "yes trinity" folks are trying to say that GW2 has the trinity of damage, support and control, but it doesn't really have the holy trinity.
So basically, as I see it, both sides are saying the exact same thing and just yelling at each other.
Well as one of the original arguers on this thread, let me try to shed some light on things and maybe help everyone understand the different viewpoints. Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but this is what I think...
Nanfoodle pretty much admits that GW2 does not have the holy trinity. All he is arguing is that GW2 has..."a trinity." Which is technically correct, and everyone will agree that GW2 does have "the trinity" of damage, support, and control. The devs even directly say this. And I think that no one would dispute this (feel free to dispute if you want).
The problem here is that the "no trinity" folks are trying to say that GW2 does not have the HOLY TRINITY, they are not trying to say that GW2 does not have the trinity of damage, support and control. And the "yes trinity" folks are trying to say that GW2 has the trinity of damage, support and control, but it doesn't really have the holy trinity.
So basically, as I see it, both sides are saying the exact same thing and just yelling at each other.
Good day gents .
I'd dispute it a bit, only because when you have the word "trinity" in there it gives the illusion that players can take those aspects as roles. I dispute that there are actual roles at all, based on the fact that all players have all aspects simultaneously and it's about using the right skills at the right time, not what your "role" is.
Well as one of the original arguers on this thread, let me try to shed some light on things and maybe help everyone understand the different viewpoints. Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but this is what I think...
Nanfoodle pretty much admits that GW2 does not have the holy trinity. All he is arguing is that GW2 has..."a trinity." Which is technically correct, and everyone will agree that GW2 does have "the trinity" of damage, support, and control. The devs even directly say this. And I think that no one would dispute this (feel free to dispute if you want).
The problem here is that the "no trinity" folks are trying to say that GW2 does not have the HOLY TRINITY, they are not trying to say that GW2 does not have the trinity of damage, support and control. And the "yes trinity" folks are trying to say that GW2 has the trinity of damage, support and control, but it doesn't really have the holy trinity.
So basically, as I see it, both sides are saying the exact same thing and just yelling at each other.
Good day gents .
It's not really that, the thing where people saying there is not trinity is that control, damage,support is not a trinity, meaning not a role trinity. You don't make your toon full support and no control or damage, it's not viable (I'm not even sure it's possible with most classes, since weapons and skills are for the most part designed to be multifunctinal).
It's more of an affinity thing, like for example a build allows 40% damage, 35% control, 25% support. The goal being that the teambuild is balanced around 33% damage support control, but not the personnal builds. Everyone does everything, just not at the same time in a fight nor in the same way, but they all contribute effectively to the team.
I think I know where you are going, let me guess. No taunt in this game so there for there is no tanks! Did I read you right? If not you have me intrested, go on.
No thats not what I was going to say, but it is a good point!
A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. Im sure you've heard this many times.
Tanking is a form of Control. Healing is a form of Support. But both Control and Support are much more than those things.
If, for example, keep a mob knocked down, and away from my team I am Controlling them, but not Tanking them, as that would mean I am absorbing hits and negating damage with my skills.
They fundamentally re-thought what each of the roles purpose was, and created a new implementation, that also happens to be a trinity.
Sure for the sake of this debate, remove control from the classes, I still can tank short term with any class. Some longer then others.
I have seen dev walkthroughs showing them getting two shot by a regular mob, much less a dungeon boss. If you think your going to tank that, I think your quite mistaken.
And even if its possible, its still going to be FAR more effective to utilize control abilities to win boss fights.
Rolls eyes and walks away. Thanks for the uesless lession in how awesome controle is in GW2. Just a FYI Guardians and Necros can take beatings for a few mins without much of a problem. In sPvP I had 4 people beating on me and could not take me down and this went on for a few min. In the end I truned around when 3 ran off from boredom of trying to kill me and I killed the 4th player 1v1 even with the fact I was at 1/2 health when I started fighting back. If thats not tanking I have no clue what is. I will agree, tanking in GW2 is not traditional but its there in the form of a total package of "Damage Mitigation" in that I count the controle listed on GW2wiki as a soft trinity. Dont agree with me <<>>>
this is when you know someone is playing against bad players. dont exist any classs that can take damage from 4 players LOL. unless you were playing against full defense build that is almost impossible on random sPvP matchs. warrior can too takle insane damage like Necro and Guardian (with special builds obvious, Necro and guardian with berserk amulet die very very easy and quick).
with my Necro i could too fight against 4 players kill 1 (well only down because is impossible to real killl someone against more 3 players with Necro) and run away and tale lot of damage. this make me a amazing player, big NO, the otehr players were just very bad.
"if thats not tanking i have no clue what is" LOOOL.
yap, you dont have any clue. you were fight against bad players with a great class Necro on BW1 and 2 were amazing). mesmer against bad players can easy "tank" 3-4 players LOL. same for any class, elementalist too especially with staff. please stop make with claims like " i could do this on sPvP " like was a big thing, like you lot of people do the same ( like me) but most of people know were playing against very bad players...
anyone saying can take damage from 4 players need serious try a tournament and pass the 1s round, would love see anyone on a final tournament saying can figh against 4 players. LOL. on tournaments anyone against 4 player cant even last 1m....
on dungeons forget any tank because you cant tank anything, mob will not only atack you, you cant agrro him with skills
Sure if you say so. I based my build for sPvP off this vid... you tell me if its bull. Can swap between ranged and melee, 2 immobilizes, 3 blinds and a knock back. Also has heavy self heals with 2 heals on a quick refresh. I could solo 1v1 and sometime 1v2. This guy taught me a lot.
Sure if you say so. I based my build for sPvP off this vid... you tell me if its bull. Can swap between ranged and melee, 2 immobilizes, 3 blinds and a knock back. Also has heavy self heals with 2 heals on a quick refresh. I could solo 1v1 and sometime 1v2. This guy taught me a lot.
Sure if you say so. I based my build for sPvP off this vid... you tell me if its bull. Can swap between ranged and melee, 2 immobilizes, 3 blinds and a knock back. Also has heavy self heals with 2 heals on a quick refresh. I could solo 1v1 and sometime 1v2. This guy taught me a lot.
I like this build. Loads of control (which Im a huge fan of.)
So is this your PvE build also? or do you have another? Also what part of the Trinity do you see this build as?
IMO anything that can mitigate damage on that scale, your tanking (EDIT: I see this build as 33% tank, heal and dps). Really reminded me of my Shockadin pally in WoW. Hard to kill and none stop DPS when needed. I used that build mostly for sPvP and sometimes in WvW.
IMO anything that can mitigate damage on that scale, your tanking (EDIT: I see this build as 33% tank, heal and dps). Really reminded me of my Shockadin pally in WoW. Hard to kill and none stop DPS when needed. I used that build mostly for sPvP and sometimes in WvW.
Comments
So I dont get your point then. Your stand is that there is or isnt a Soft Trinity in GW2? Or you dont like the use of damage mitigation when taking about the Soft Trinity?
Let me try to be more clear.
Your point seems to be this:
That the tradtional "Holy Trinity" that was promised to be gone is, in actuality, just split up amongst each class. So that while there is no dedicated class for each role, the roles exist none then less.
Would that be acurate? Because I dont think thats entirely the case, but I want to be sure I understand the point you are trying to make.
I think I know where you are going, let me guess. No taunt in this game so there for there is no tanks! Did I read you right? If not you have me intrested, go on.
I would say having no true aggro statistic in this game pretty much takes away any standard definition of tank from the trinity. If you want to say any control=tank I guess you could make an argument for that but it's really not the same as a standard holy trinity tank in past MMOs..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
two things wrong with his thinking. He keeps saying he is having a gear issue. That doesn't exist in GW2, so he's definitely misinforming the public watching his show.
the second thing is simple, he did no dodging the entire time he was being attacked by anything. Seriously, Lrn2play it's not that hard to hit a dodge button.
Oh and just love how he's like "well this isn't easy" uhm no it's not and that's the point. for too long people have just had everything handed to them in dungeons, it's not going to be easy unless you want to play WoW or SWTOR which are "push button receive gear" dungeons.
not true the gear difference between say level 5 and level 80 is still pretty big.. In WvWvW you get the boost up in HP so you don't get destroyed which takes a lot of the gear imbalances away but in PVE if you go into a level 30 dungeon with level 1 gear expect to get waisted.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. Im sure you've heard this many times.
Tanking is a form of Control. Healing is a form of Support. But both Control and Support are much more than those things.
If, for example, keep a mob knocked down, and away from my team I am Controlling them, but not Tanking them, as that would mean I am absorbing hits and negating damage with my skills.
They fundamentally re-thought what each of the roles purpose was, and created a new implementation, that also happens to be a trinity.
There is no taunt skill but there are lots of way to get or take/make aggro. Often person standing closet to the mob gets aggro/hit. Spike damage, or in the case of my Gaurdian, pumping out a large amount of heals seems to always get attention of any boss. When that happened I would mitigate damage with passive heals, dodge, buffs like Aegis, debuffs like blind. I could stand toe to toe with a boss longer then most people I played with. But never tried to play the main tank if you gona bash me on the head with that next. To be honest my hope is that ANet balances all classes so that everyone does the same skills equaly. So a Elementalist in water/staff puts out the same amount of healing as a Guardian. As it stands now, classes can tank, not in the traditional MMO way but not much about GW2 is traditional. Seems like no one person is required to tank longer then a min at most.
Sure for the sake of this debate, remove control from the classes, I still can tank short term with any class. Some longer then others.
No, it is nothing like a Cleric in EQ2. A Cleric in EQ2 can keep someone alive (a tank) taking constant damage from all the opponents. A guardian can do relatively small (about 5-10% of someones healing compared to their own self heal) support.
Do they do more than some of the other professions? Yes.
Does this make them a healer? No.
In fact, there is nothing they can do heal-wise that cannot be replicated by another class. In fact, the only class that cannot spec to heal allies reliably is the Thief. None of this healing accounts for much though, as the primary healing source will be your self heal.
OI this thread is still rolling? The link below i think can sum up this back and forth....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsUhqSVz8ZU
I have seen dev walkthroughs showing them getting two shot by a regular mob, much less a dungeon boss. If you think your going to tank that, I think your quite mistaken.
And even if its possible, its still going to be FAR more effective to utilize control abilities to win boss fights.
I still don't consider a mob wacking on you because you happen to be closest really tanking.. if you consider that tanking any class in any game can "tank" for a short period of time till they are dead. Taking away the taunt mechanic and aggro statistics pretty much has eliminated what you would call holy trinity tanking. The control aspect gw2 has added isn't really tanking at all in the traditional sense or the holy trinity sense.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Rolls eyes and walks away. Thanks for the uesless lession in how awesome controle is in GW2. Just a FYI Guardians and Necros can take beatings for a few mins without much of a problem. In sPvP I had 4 people beating on me and could not take me down and this went on for a few min. In the end I truned around when 3 ran off from boredom of trying to kill me and I killed the 4th player 1v1 even with the fact I was at 1/2 health when I started fighting back. If thats not tanking I have no clue what is. I will agree, tanking in GW2 is not traditional but its there in the form of a total package of "Damage Mitigation" in that I count the controle listed on GW2wiki as a soft trinity. Dont agree with me <<<shrugs and walks away>>>>
Which is a great illustration why sPvP /= PvE. Nice. But by all means, roll your eyes and walk away, sure in the certainty that we are all wrong, but you have the truth of it.
PvP and PvE are not the same regarding damage. It's was t like that too in GW1, killing a 600 HP guy without a spike could take some time in PvP (especially if he was backed up), but that same guy could get 2-shot by a trash mob in endgame pve, like in the underworld (any group, meaning usually 2 mobs, could wipe an entire regular party without the right teamwork).
It's going to be the same in GW2 PvE.
The trinity just can't work, you can't tank and nobody can heal you efficiently (even a staff guardian, 2k heal won't work against a 10k auto-attack).
You will need teamwork and good use of skills to survive. There is no other way.
this is when you know someone is playing against bad players. dont exist any classs that can take damage from 4 players LOL. unless you were playing against full defense build that is almost impossible on random sPvP matchs. warrior can too takle insane damage like Necro and Guardian (with special builds obvious, Necro and guardian with berserk amulet die very very easy and quick).
with my Necro i could too fight against 4 players kill 1 (well only down because is impossible to real killl someone against more 3 players with Necro) and run away and tale lot of damage. this make me a amazing player, big NO, the otehr players were just very bad.
"if thats not tanking i have no clue what is" LOOOL.
yap, you dont have any clue. you were fight against bad players with a great class Necro on BW1 and 2 were amazing). mesmer against bad players can easy "tank" 3-4 players LOL. same for any class, elementalist too especially with staff. please stop make with claims like " i could do this on sPvP " like was a big thing, like you lot of people do the same ( like me) but most of people know were playing against very bad players...
anyone saying can take damage from 4 players need serious try a tournament and pass the 1s round, would love see anyone on a final tournament saying can figh against 4 players. LOL. on tournaments anyone against 4 player cant even last 1m....
on dungeons forget any tank because you cant tank anything, mob will not only atack you, you cant agrro him with skills
Hahah still going huh?
Well as one of the original arguers on this thread, let me try to shed some light on things and maybe help everyone understand the different viewpoints. Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but this is what I think...
Nanfoodle pretty much admits that GW2 does not have the holy trinity. All he is arguing is that GW2 has..."a trinity." Which is technically correct, and everyone will agree that GW2 does have "the trinity" of damage, support, and control. The devs even directly say this. And I think that no one would dispute this (feel free to dispute if you want).
The problem here is that the "no trinity" folks are trying to say that GW2 does not have the HOLY TRINITY, they are not trying to say that GW2 does not have the trinity of damage, support and control. And the "yes trinity" folks are trying to say that GW2 has the trinity of damage, support and control, but it doesn't really have the holy trinity.
So basically, as I see it, both sides are saying the exact same thing and just yelling at each other.
Good day gents
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Just posting to be a part of this behemoth of a thread.
Life is good.
I'd dispute it a bit, only because when you have the word "trinity" in there it gives the illusion that players can take those aspects as roles. I dispute that there are actual roles at all, based on the fact that all players have all aspects simultaneously and it's about using the right skills at the right time, not what your "role" is.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It's not really that, the thing where people saying there is not trinity is that control, damage,support is not a trinity, meaning not a role trinity. You don't make your toon full support and no control or damage, it's not viable (I'm not even sure it's possible with most classes, since weapons and skills are for the most part designed to be multifunctinal).
It's more of an affinity thing, like for example a build allows 40% damage, 35% control, 25% support. The goal being that the teambuild is balanced around 33% damage support control, but not the personnal builds. Everyone does everything, just not at the same time in a fight nor in the same way, but they all contribute effectively to the team.
Sure if you say so. I based my build for sPvP off this vid... you tell me if its bull. Can swap between ranged and melee, 2 immobilizes, 3 blinds and a knock back. Also has heavy self heals with 2 heals on a quick refresh. I could solo 1v1 and sometime 1v2. This guy taught me a lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kaws0nMgXE&list=HL1339543431&feature=mh_lolz
http://www.gw2builds.org/view/529078/melee_ranged_dps_heavy_self_heals_w_video
I like this build. Loads of control (which Im a huge fan of.)
So is this your PvE build also? or do you have another? Also what part of the Trinity do you see this build as?
IMO anything that can mitigate damage on that scale, your tanking (EDIT: I see this build as 33% tank, heal and dps). Really reminded me of my Shockadin pally in WoW. Hard to kill and none stop DPS when needed. I used that build mostly for sPvP and sometimes in WvW.
I mainly used this one for PvE and sometimes WvW.
http://www.gw2builds.org/view/511159/hot_team_defence_mace_shield_spec_w_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wsbavY2Q2M&feature=plcp
This one was also fun for sPvP/WvW/PvE solo.
http://www.gw2builds.org/view/510091/stay_here_as_i_light_you_on_fire_aoe_dps_w_video
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmBz4oK5lhg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0ijtLULRIc
Thats what I suspected. The PvE build you linked looks like a good support build. Would you qualify that as mainly Tank or Healing? a mix of both?